| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 23:59:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the tri-patriate deity thing with the sun - NOT a big fan of that. I was mildly upset that they decided to lean that way with canon. If there is a 'dusk lord', I'd rather it not be Jergal (although Jergal passing it off to someone every time it is his turn to step down would be kinda cool and in-character).
Very much agreed. It's one of the few bits of lore from Eric Boyd that I really dislike. I don't see the need for times of day to have a deity, and I really have an issue with the fact that this setup means that two opposing deities -- actual enemies of each other! -- were in fact different aspects of one deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 22:21:17
|
That part I don't have trouble with - Kali is both an assassin-deity and a nurturer, depending upon which of her aspects is being worshiped. That means we have RW precedents of deity's who's portfolios appear to be at odds with itself.
And in a odd way, it looks like they tried to give the halfling hearth goddess the same kind of weird spin in Races of the Wild (IIRC). Once again, not near sources, so forgive my leaving out the names.
My whole problem with it is that it feels 'forced'. It was a clever homebrew idea, but I preferred it stay that way. There are too many discrepancies by making that whole thing canon. It made for a great heresy, but that's as far as it should have went (IMHO).
There is too much 'weirdness' revolving around Lathander already (Dawn cataclysm) for the Aumanator thing to be thrown into the mix. it just seems to muddy things even more. Saying they were the same is one thing (something changed within Lathander so he wasn't such a tyrant after Netheril's fall), but the whole rising and falling thing is confusing.
I would have preferred it if Aumanator absorbed the Mulan deity Aja/Aya and gained the dawn portfolio, while at the same time allowing him to "get in-touch with his feminine side" (in other words, he mellowed out). In fact, it could have been that very 'absorption' that was witnessed by a Bedine Prophet who then spread the tale of a female Aumanator (I think it is the Bedine who thought At'ar was female??) That could have happened right around the time of Netheril's fall, or perhaps, not too long before it. I don't have the timeline handy - could Aya have been fleeing the Orcgare wars? If Aumanator caught her outside of the Untheric Pantheon's sphere of influence, I could see him going after her.
And he lost his 'Tyrantness' right around the time Bane arose. Could possibly be a connection, although why Jergal had it... maybe he grabbed it after Aumanator changed. Not sure how that would work though.. don't know what Aumy's original portfolio included (He just seems like the tyrant-type to me).
Also, it would mean that the Bedine had to have been in the area at the time, but I think there is another discrepancy with that as well (isn't there a Netherease reference to them, before the place became a desert?)
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2010 22:38:07 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2010 : 03:16:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That part I don't have trouble with - Kali is both an assassin-deity and a nurturer, depending upon which of her aspects is being worshiped. That means we have RW precedents of deity's who's portfolios appear to be at odds with itself.
I'm not talking about portfolios that conflict... I'm talking about at least one canon reference to Lathander and Myrkul that explicitly lists them as enemies. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 08:36:58
|
I like the tripartite heresy, but it should have been left as a mystery. Amaunator is a much more boring choice for the pcs than Lathander.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not talking about portfolios that conflict... I'm talking about at least one canon reference to Lathander and Myrkul that explicitly lists them as enemies.
They could all be aspects of the one ''watcher god'' and still be enemies, or it's just the churches who are in conflict. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 14:09:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I like the tripartite heresy, but it should have been left as a mystery. Amaunator is a much more boring choice for the pcs than Lathander.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not talking about portfolios that conflict... I'm talking about at least one canon reference to Lathander and Myrkul that explicitly lists them as enemies.
They could all be aspects of the one ''watcher god'' and still be enemies, or it's just the churches who are in conflict.
Myrkul and Lathander were specifically listed as enemies of each other -- not their churches, the deities themselves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 11:17:41
|
Then the first option I said, if you care about little canon references
why is it a problem that they are listed as enemies? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 15:28:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Then the first option I said, if you care about little canon references
why is it a problem that they are listed as enemies?
Because if they are just different faces of one entity, then it doesn't make sense for them to be enemies. It's like your right hand hating your left hand -- it just doesn't make sense. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 04:00:07
|
Wooly, I don't think they are meant to be 3 faces of one entity. I don't think Eric himself meant it that way. Rather, I think the portfolios are tied together in a unique way, they derive from a source, that may at one time have been a single Sun god that fragmented into three aspects. Subsequent stewards have taken over those portfolios but I don't think anyone thinks they are three faces of the same deity.
It seems pretty clear at least that Jergal and Myrkul were ascended mortals that assumed those portfolios from prior office holders. We are told that there was a first sun that was destroyed. I imagine that whoever was the god of Death at that time took over the portfolio of dusk from the dying or deceased god of the Sun.
Note that Murder and Death were originally different entities. At some point both portfolios became combined in a single deity. I imagine that the first god of Murder killed the god of Death and took his portfolio, thus combining them under one god and passing both portfolios on to subsequent lords of the Fugue Plane. Whether this happened before or after the first Sun was extinguished I don't know. I suspect Murder killed Death after Death took Dusk from the first Sun, but that's just speculation on my part.
The portfolio of Morning I suspect was the last to be created. My guess is that the first Sun had the Day portfolio, he was snuffed out, the god of Death had Dusk, or at least Dusk was the Day portfolio transformed in the possession of the god of Death, in the same way that Finder transformed the portfolio of Rot into the portfolio of the Cycle of Life when he took it from Moander. Same portfolio reinterpreted to fit the personality of the steward.
When the new sun was ignited (or perhaps reforged from the pieces of the old sun) I surmise that that saw the creation of the portfolio of Morning, a new beginning, a new hope. Morning was the last of the three.
How and why all three portfolios are tied together we can only guess. But I think it safe to say that the entities who hold those portfolios are not aspects of the same deity so much as inheritors of the original portfolios that may derive from a single source. Imagine three descendants of a rich great-grandfather, fighting over a priceless heirloom that was left to them in a will that had some pretty weird rules tied to the bequest.
Come to think of it, there were two suns. So they may actually be juggling two portfolios, three gods rotating through 2 portfolios, in a complicated custody agreement that allows for only 2 of the 3 linked portfolios to be active at any one time.
But what I am saying is that it is okay for Lathander to hate Myrkul because they are not 2 faces of the same deity. If anything they are like two divorced parents with alternating custody of the same child. And we all know that 2 divorced parents can often hate each other with the passion of a fiery sun.  |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 18:57:49
|
So the Death-God formed at the moment the first Sun (who I assume was Aumanotor) was destroyed?
It makes sense that way, but not if they are all supposed to be different faces of one god (reminds of the weirdness created by the change with Celanil/Sune in 4e, in regards to the elven trimatriarch deity.)
Of course, I've already covered that in another thread, by speculating that Aphrodite herself is just a Greek-specific name for an older, Fey deity.
True deities (created by other gods, which includes ANYTHING of a higher order then 'mortal'), not ascended mortals, are not really race-specific, but rather are just balls of energy that manifest in a form acceptable to mortal worshipers. They were created by 'higher powers' (like Primordials) as ambassadors between beings from the higher planes and the Prime material (which those beings cannot interact with without damaging the fabric of reality). And by 'create', it could be anything ranging from deific procreation (which can get pretty damn creative), simple Avatars, and self-aware manifestations (including artifacts).
What that means is that 'the gods' are really only part of pantheons within a specific sphere or culture - those 'walls' are artificially created by the dogma of their churches. They are actually one group of 'higher beings' that interact with each other based on the project (and world) at-hand. Although 'real' familial bonds may exist between some, for the most part they are individuals with their own agendas, and will answer to any name (or face) that mortals care to put upon them, so long as worship-juice (which I call 'Elan') flows to them.
I'm not sure what point I was trying to make here... sorry... 
I guess it is that "the gods are a mystery", and no mortal truly knows the truth of what goes on beyond their world - I doubt deities or even primordials are privy to ALL the universe's secrets. I think at each 'level', everything is part of something above it, all the way "to the top" of the divine food-chain.
In that light, the 4e changes (regarding deities that were combined) and the bits about the tri-patriate deity(s) makes some sense, I think. BTW, not saying I agree with all of it, just saying I can wrap my head around it now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2010 05:29:41 |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 19:10:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Then the first option I said, if you care about little canon references
why is it a problem that they are listed as enemies?
Because if they are just different faces of one entity, then it doesn't make sense for them to be enemies. It's like your right hand hating your left hand -- it just doesn't make sense.
Or, it could be like Demogorgon, 2 sentient minds in the same entity plotting against each other. Does it make sense? Not really. Is it chaotic? Abyss yeah! (didn't made much sense to say Hell yeah! ) |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 21:42:40
|
Imo it's like the 'divide and conquer'' principle. Certain people will worship the dawn, other fear the dusk etc. The god adapts. It fits with Ed's ''watching gods'' concept, who are above the greater gods, but mortals will never know.
I like what 4e did with Hanali-Sune and others. For every culture and race, including hundreds of monstrous races, to have a pantheon is too much. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 03:30:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Wooly, I don't think they are meant to be 3 faces of one entity. I don't think Eric himself meant it that way. Rather, I think the portfolios are tied together in a unique way, they derive from a source, that may at one time have been a single Sun god that fragmented into three aspects. Subsequent stewards have taken over those portfolios but I don't think anyone thinks they are three faces of the same deity.
It's pretty much what he said.
quote:
"Imagine a 3-faced statue, with each face looking forward, 120 degrees apart.
Now imagine a light source orbiting around this statue. Sometimes you can see
one face, sometimes, two faces, never 3.
This is how I envisioned the uber-sun-god. Lathander is one face, Amaunator
another, and a nameless god of dusk the 3rd. If you wait enough centuries,
Amaunator "dies of neglect" and the cult of the dusk god grows in power. Then
he too dies of neglect (allowing first Myrkul, then others to seize that
portfolio for a time), and Lathander grows in power. It may well be that
during the death period of this cycle, that particular face of the
uber-sun-god statue lies on the Astral Plane.
Source
So we have two faces of one entity that are explicitly stated as being enemies of each other. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 08:18:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
"Imagine a 3-faced statue, with each face looking forward, 120 degrees apart.
Now imagine a light source orbiting around this statue. Sometimes you can see
one face, sometimes, two faces, never 3.
This is how I envisioned the uber-sun-god. Lathander is one face, Amaunator
another, and a nameless god of dusk the 3rd. If you wait enough centuries,
Amaunator "dies of neglect" and the cult of the dusk god grows in power. Then
he too dies of neglect (allowing first Myrkul, then others to seize that
portfolio for a time), and Lathander grows in power. It may well be that
during the death period of this cycle, that particular face of the
uber-sun-god statue lies on the Astral Plane.
Source
So we have two faces of one entity that are explicitly stated as being enemies of each other.
I agree, Wooly... it's not as though any church worshiping the same deity IRL has ever had a schism along sectarian lines. That would be totally unthink... Oh, wait.
Seriously, though: The powers might be the manifestations of the same principle, but:
A)Be unaware of the nature of the tripartate godhead of which they are an aspect
B) KNOW that one of them is the next to fade, and Not want it to be them. Really... as the Faerunian powers understand it, it might be possible that Myrkul thought that he could avoid being the next to fall/go dormant by sending Lathander to the Astral first or...
C)Have either a built-in or personal prediliction towards hating their 'opposite'. Witness that although Kelemvor was adamantly anti-undead, rabidly opposed to death being scary, and in fact encouraged mortals to see it as 'a new beginning' (things which should have delighted Lathander), the Dawn God was listed as being very suspicious of Kel. It could be that the Dawn god ALWAYS dislikes the Dusk god. In many RW religions, a similar dualism exists. Zoroastrianism is an excellent example... Ahura Mazda and the Demiurge were the same deity, yet locked in unending struggle. A quick read of the Cathar Heresy will show a more recent example of dualistic religious belief IRL.
Then again, I always liked the tripartate Sun-Power, and it made sense to me the instant I read it. Grey did a great job (as he usually does) of summing up my points far more eloquently than I could. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 11:11:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
"Imagine a 3-faced statue, with each face looking forward, 120 degrees apart.
Now imagine a light source orbiting around this statue. Sometimes you can see
one face, sometimes, two faces, never 3.
This is how I envisioned the uber-sun-god. Lathander is one face, Amaunator
another, and a nameless god of dusk the 3rd. If you wait enough centuries,
Amaunator "dies of neglect" and the cult of the dusk god grows in power. Then
he too dies of neglect (allowing first Myrkul, then others to seize that
portfolio for a time), and Lathander grows in power. It may well be that
during the death period of this cycle, that particular face of the
uber-sun-god statue lies on the Astral Plane.
Source
So we have two faces of one entity that are explicitly stated as being enemies of each other.
I agree, Wooly... it's not as though any church worshiping the same deity IRL has ever had a schism along sectarian lines. That would be totally unthink... Oh, wait.
I'm not talking about the churches being enemies, I'm talking about the deities themselves being enemies. It's not the same thing. Especially since the whole idea means that one deity becomes his own enemy while continuing to exist independently. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Oct 2010 11:14:55 |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 05:06:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Death-God formed at the moment the first Sun (who I assume was Aumanotor) was destroyed?
Actually, that's not exactly what I was thinking. The Death god came into being sometime around the time the first mortal being died. It says in the 3E FRCS p.260 that Selûne and Shar fought the War of Light & Darkness "and from their divine conflict the deities of war, disease, murder, death, and other fell forces were created."
Disease is Talona. War is Tempus/Targus/Garagos (or their predecessor). But note that Murder and Death are two different entities. My thinking is that Shar created the god of Murder to start killing off the first living beings--or perhaps his creation was a reaction to her committing the first murder. Death was unknown in the world at this time. After the first murder, there was a free soul/petitioner that needed to be dealt with. Then another, then another in rapid order. The War had many casualties. The petitioners may have been used by Shar, twisting them into fiends to use as troops against her sisters. In fact, the killing of mortals for the purpose of collecting the resources (petitioners or larvae) to turn into troops may have been a major tactic used by Shar in the War.
I imagine that at the conclusion of the War of Light and Darkness, the Fugue Plane was created either by compact among the gods who fought the War, or by Ao himself, and a single god of Death was appointed at that time to rule over this neutral ground to allow gods to "pick up" the souls that rightly belonged to them. Death was then like a referee or umpire, keeping things fair.
I surmise that at some point following the end of the War, the god of Murder killed the god of Death and took over as Lord of the Fugue Plane, uniting the two portfolios of Murder and Death in a single god. But it is important to note that they were originally two different powers.
Now where does Dusk come in?
The 4th edition FRCG tells us on p.42 that Dendar the Night Serpent swallowed the first sun (Let's call the First Sun Amaunator). Probably at the behest of Shar, but it doesn't say. Neither Murder nor Death killed the first sun, it was Dendar. Who was a primordial, by the way, per the FRCG.
Now then, perhaps Dendar obtained the first Sun's portfolio. But due to the fact that Dendar is the Night Serpent, the portfolio was reinterpreted as "Dusk."
Note that Dendar still lives in the Fugue Plane to this day.
Was Dendar the first Lord of the Fugue? Or was the first Lord of the Fugue the being who wrested the Dusk portfolio from Dendar? That certainly makes for a good story. Ao decrees that gods may no longer kill mortals (directly) for the purpose of creating petitioners to serve them. He decrees that the petitioners will get to choose for themselves during the span of their mortal lives where they go when they die. And upon their death they will congregate in a place where they will wait for their chosen patron to collect their soul. And the Lord of this place shall be the one who can wrest the Dusk portfolio from Dendar. And then Ao created the Fugue Plane from the land surrounding Dendar's lair. I kind of like that myth.
So the first lord of the Dead was either Dendar herself, or the one who took back the portfolio from Dendar's gullet. Note that Dendar somehow survived the extraction. There could have been an epic fight involving the Swallow Whole extraordinary ability and the retriever subsequently cutting himself out from the gizzard.
A third possibility is that Ao freed Amaunator from Dendar's gullet and made him the Lord of the Dead, at which point his portfolio was transformed into Dusk, and a new Sun was created and given to someone else. That is an intriguing myth in its own right. It lends itself to all sorts of possibilities.
At some point the Sun was reforged anew (let's call the 2nd Sun Lathander) and a new dawn began.
After that you come up with all sorts of possibilities. Maybe the god of Murder wanted the Fugue Plane, so he kills Amaunator and takes over. Or, conversely what if Amaunator killed the god of Murder and took his portfolio, uniting Dusk, Death and Murder under Amaunator. Then he covets his old portfolio, deciding eventually to off Lathander and retake the Sun, adding Lathander's portfolio to his own.
He succeeds. Amaunator murders Lathander and reclaims his Sun portfolio. But Ao, or a group of other gods steps in. Amaunator has too many portfolios and is forced to choose, or to relinquish, or has it forcefully taken from him, but he loses Death, Dusk & Murder to another god. Who? I don't know. Maybe Panzuriel. Maybe some long forgotten god.
But as a result, the ends of the chain are linked and a cycle is created. The two portfolios rotate among a succession of 3 gods. The two portfolios can each transform into the next portfolio in the cycle as they change possession. And some sequence of events always causes one god to die off and a new one to assume the next office in the cycle. Over and over again.
I imagine this cycle has occurred many times. Going backwards you have Kelemvor, prior to him Cyric, Myrkul, then Jergal. Jergal was a spellweaver who took it from someone else. Perhaps from Sehanine, who may have possessed it during the First Flowering. Prior to that, Null had it. Prior to him some Aearee god, perhaps Phraarkilloorm. Prior to him a god from the Great School pantheon of the Aquatic creator race. I strongly favor Panzuriel for that slot. In fact, Panzuriel still has the Murder portfolio to this day.
Each one of those cycles probably saw some comparable version of Lathander and Amaunator as well, though not necessarily under those names. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 05:19:26
|
| See, I can deal with most of that... Passing portfolios around is well-established, and even seeing them move in a cycle amongst a small group isn't an issue for me. I just can't see all of the sun gods as one -- that's my only objection in this entire discussion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 05:56:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I can deal with most of that... Passing portfolios around is well-established, and even seeing them move in a cycle amongst a small group isn't an issue for me. I just can't see all of the sun gods as one -- that's my only objection in this entire discussion.
Agreed
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Death-God formed at the moment the first Sun (who I assume was Aumanotor) was destroyed?
Actually, that's not exactly what I was thinking. The Death god came into being sometime around the time the first mortal being died. <snip>
But theres the problem, I think. That early in the game i don't think life would have formed. although we really don't have a good time frame, it seems the war took place 'soon after' the first sun was extinguished. Even if life had had time to form, it would have been obliterated at the moment the sun was destroyed. Note in your quote it does NOT say murder and death formed as a result of the Solicide, but as a result of the war it started.
This is why I think death and murder would have spawned simultaneously, the moment any being met with those ends. Even if primitive life had existed that early-on, the death and murder of the sun would have preceded their destruction by milliseconds, at least. I have to assume that 'death' - ANY death - cannot happen within a sphere that does not hold that concept (simply because the action itself would create the concept - and divine force that rules it - at that precise moment.)
I'm sorry if it sounds like I splitting hairs here - I'm just trying to imagine in what order all these divine forces were created. War, Death, and Murder all seem logical in those first few moments of the conflict, starting with the 'murder' of the first sun. Disease is a bit of a problem for me... unless the concept includes 'suffering', and I am sure all parties involved were suffering, even if only emotionally. 'mental illness' may be rolled into that as well - considering that Shar was attacking and killing 'family', that would be sure signs of Psychopathic behavior. A bit of a stretch, but it may have been Shar's mental state that spawned Disease.
From a meta-gaming point of view, I think it may have been an 'artistic' desire to emulate the biblical 'Four Horseman' in FR lore, but thats just a gut-feeling, not anything concrete.
Any idea what those original Shadovari were? Proto-gods spawned from the plane of Shadow? I was never able to come up with an acceptable hypothesis for them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 09:29:16
|
Well, the 4e FRCG tells us "While the gods and primordials contested for ages, life struggled into existence on the worlds they coveted. The blue jewel Toril sparkled brightest of them all, home to a race of sea creatures that huddled in the depths of the world’s single vast ocean. This Blue Age came to a sudden and chilling end when Toril was inexplicably plunged into darkness, its sun snatched from the sky by a sinister primordial known as the Night Serpent. Global temperatures plummeted, and soon, most life on the planet became extinct."
From this I take it that the first life was aquatic--possibly the ancestors of the Aquatic creator race, a race of shape-shifting octopoids who would later transform themselves into the amphibious Batrachi.
We are told most life became extinct. But life could have existed beneath the ice, perhaps warmed and nurtured by volcanic vents. Or sustained by the magic of Chauntea and Selûne.
Then we are told the gods and primordials battled for a time until the gods won out, aided by Ubtao. The next sentence is intriguing to me: "Eons passed before sunlight warmed the world once more. Oceans thawed, then receded, allowing dry land to rise above the frigid water." Does that mean the sun was not reforged for Eons? Or was the sun was reforged soon after the first one was put out, however it TOOK eons for the sunlight to warm the world and melt the ice? My reading seems to suggest the first interpretation, but I suppose the second cannot be ruled out. It might explain why the world was created around 70,000 years ago, but then the ice age didn't end until around 35,000 years ago when the Sarrukh and later creator races began to flourish.
I don't think, however, that Murder was created with the death of the
Sun, but rather with the death of the first mortal--One of the race of sea creatures I tend to think. Remember that Selûne created the Sun unilaterally, to warm Chauntea so that life could thrive. Shar was reacting to that betrayal by trying to extinguish life, the life that Chauntea sought to nourish. I think Shar was scouring the depths trying to kill the first life, systematically, with disease, and war, and murder.
Don't forget, humans were not around yet. So Selûne, Shar, and Chauntea would not have been conceived of in human guise. Chauntea may have looked like a mother octopus. Or a teeming reef. Or floating kelp. Or a green tide of microorganisms and krill. Selûne may have looked like a glowing, lambent kraken. Or a luminous jellyfish. Or a school of tiny, silver fish, flashing like stars in the night sky as their glinting scales caught the light of the moon. And Shar might have loomed like a great black squid, lurking within a cloud of darkest ink that obscured all light around her as she moved through the waves.
You know, come to think of it, what metaphor for "murder"--especially mass murder--might be especially apt for an aquatic race? I am thinking a shark. Which brings Sekolah to mind. Perhaps Sekolah was the first lord of Murder? But then again, we have Panzuriel, the kraken god, who has murder among his portfolio. So maybe it was he. Yes, Panzuriel works best, I think, as the first lord of Murder.
I note that Death need not have appeared until the end of the War of Light and Darkness. He could have been instituted as the guardian of the Fugue to sort out all the dead souls left over from the War.
Note that the River Slith runs through the Fugue Plane. Dendar's lair is found alongside the River Slith, and the river passes through the City of Judgement forming a moat around the Kelemvor's crystal palace.
The River Slith is said to be filled with knives and have a consistency of sludge, a polluted mess. Perhaps it is just a trickle now, but once it was a great ocean? Back when the first life were aquatic? The knives may be residual weapons or metaphors for the War that was the impetus for their deaths and the reason for the creation of the Plane. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 11:01:28
|
In the old GhotR there is race is called the Progenitors.
As for the Shadovari, I never imagined them as the oldest, they had to be a shadow of something, maybe the second oldest race, or the third, behind mirror-like beings (kamerel, nerras ...) of Selune. And Dendar being one of the Shadovari, they are described as serpentine. |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 14:35:16
|
| The shadevari could work well as primordials. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 02:28:25
|
This is all speculation, of course, but I like to think of it this way. It's a little different in some ways from what others have suggested.
In the beginning, there was Ao. Bored, or something, he creates Selune (positive energy) and it also accidentally creates Shar (negative energy). For a long period of time the sisters just exist until Selune figures out or becomes intrigued with Ao's ability to create. Shar is content to just "be" and is horrified by the thought of other "things" messing up this nice simple duality they have. Where Selune dreams of creating, Shar imagines destruction. Their disagreement becomes a war. New beings are created, representing different aspects of their conflict, and these are the first deities. Meanwhile, Shar becomes more and more desperate as her world keeps filling up with all this noise. She hurls energy at Selune and it rips Selune a new one, creating Mystra. The very existence of Mystra, balance of light and dark in one being, serves to quiet the War for a time. But the thought of her own ending troubles Shar deeply, so she goes against her nature and creates the Night Serpent. It is an anomaly, her first creation of shadow/self. Her goal is to have the Night Serpent STOP all this Selunian creativity by showing Selune her own worst fear: ending.
The Night Serpent "kills" the Sun deity, but neither death nor murder had been a portfolio prior to this moment. All the gods are horrified and shocked, perhaps even including Dendar who revels in his accomplishment of something new. Shar sees that this is the beginning of the end, that all deities are soon to follow. Does she regret it? Perhaps. But it intensifies her fear.
The Sun God, not quite knowing what this "dead" thing is, has lost his sun-related portfolios due to the "murder" of the high-sun portfolio. The Sun God then sinks into dusk, his remaining portfolio and wanders in this mysterious new fugue plane as darkness descends on Faerun. He is intrigued by this new energy of anti-life, this "being dead and changed," and even Ao is intrigued by this new development. All the "living" deities, they are just plain freaked out. What will they do with this "hole" in the portfolio sysytem, and are they all at risk of being changed or murdered?
The "murder" causes serious imbalance in "the rules" about deity portfolios and all the deities beg Ao for answers and some resolution. Some kind of re-writing of portfolio rules takes place, as Ao 1) likes the fact that change/murder has been introduced to his system, 2) he sees an opportunity to let evolution commence, and yet 3) doesn't want all the other deities he created to just simply be murdered or "ended" by this Sharran anomaly in his system. He is also concerned by all this proliferation of deities caused by Selune and wants some kind of balance.
So the "Great Cycle" is forged. Dendar takes (keeps) the first mantle/portfolio of murder, although back then it was perhaps reduced in power from "ending what is" to "ending life". With the new rules, any deity can now "die" at the hand of another and portfolios can change hands. BUT in losing their "eternal existences" they gain the power to evolve (gain other portfolios), to reshape themselves and their realms to some degree, and to create multiple avatars (instead of millions upon millions of deities for every single new concept). But, even if a real deity does die, resurrection may be possible under certain circumstances. Ao has spoken: death AND change are the new rules, balanced out by generative life. Portfolios continue, even if deities die.
The first Sun God has become the first god of Death and the Dead (and also "retains dusk" because for a while that's all that was left of him). Death takes its first shape with the fallen Sun god (now of Dusk), and rules are written for the afterlife as well. He is to watch over the new rules of this new "after-life" as imposed by Ao. It is a measure that allows for (soul?)energy to be transformed but never fully destroyed (to make all the gods happy), and at the same time allows for the living to die, endings to occur, and real actual change to occur.
But after a while, it's still a problem that there is no Sun God, no warming/generative deity, and perhaps the new Death God does not relish his new role/portfolio set. After all, prior to this, he was Morning, Day and Dusk (though they meant something a little different originally; perhaps just a reflection of energy's general tendency to rise, move and fall). So he is somehow reborn into the god of Morning/Renewal, perhaps even possibly through the pairing of early Chauntea and Silvanus (whose roles are also expanded/changed by the new "Compact" of Ao).
In so doing, He loses the portfolio of death/dead (and dusk happens to go along with them) but He gains "morning and rebirth of new life." He is reborn and alive, glad to have regained much of his original purpose and powers.
Someone new and more suited to Death/Dead steps into that portfolio set, perhaps even the original Lord Jergal himself. For a "new concept" at the time, maybe Ao even felt an interloper would be appropriate for the role. And yet... the revived Sun God feels a "burning" jealousy at having lost one of his original three aspects, perhaps permanently. Thus we have the birth of Amaunator's hatred of Jergal, which is really just loss and envy.
Shar is completely pissed off, of course, that no one saw her entire point in creating the Night Serpent. She starts to view the other deities as mistakes that need to be erased, and her War becomes more subtle.
In this way, after the first murder and the change in the Rules, it's now possible for deities to rise and fall, for gods to gain or lose portfolios. It introduces "change" to the Faerun-iverse, and through change true evolution. But powers/roles/portfolios are maintained, keeping structure and balance in place.
Just all pure fun speculation, of course. ;) |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Oct 2010 02:45:25 |
|
|
|
Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 12:02:01
|
You know, the Dark Three really DO deserve their own novel set in the ancient prehistory of the Realms.
I remember in the F&P book there being an artifact of Jhaamdaath that basically was designed to bypass god-invulnerability, and was suck in a mud-covered heart, and it was implied by the tomb it was under to be the heart of the dead god Boream (of the Lake of Boiling Mud), and that Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal were the ones that killed him, and it was their first step on the path to being gods.
So far the most entertaining characters in the Realms are it's villains (Manshoon being a self-cloning pimp, Halaster being crazy in his hole, Fzoul being general an egomanic, and Szass Tam being rather suave for all of his being dead for decades) and having the three ORIGINAL Big Bad Evil Gods go on an epic journey through the ancient Realms to become some of the most feared in-setting gods is awesome in concept.
Bane would be a skilled warrior and cast-out noble driven by revenge and desire for power, Myrkul would be a horrible necromancer driven to defeat even death, and Bhaal would be the greatest assassin of all time, and they'd make a pact of evil Bro-Hood do be gods and go around kicking arse all of Faerun.
Like the Cyric, Kelemvor, Midnight thing without Kelemvor and Midnight's whining. |
"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 20:48:16
|
I haven't gotten back to this thread in awhile: In the piece I lost, I had something along the lines of what Therise posted.
@Gray - I had no idea that there was some prehistory in the 4e FRCG, and that sounds like exactly what I needed! (and I had reconsidered what I said earlier regardless - the lost post I wrote featured the Creator Races prominently before the WoL&D)
I will re-write that, but I have to finish the map I am working on first (lest it never get done). I covered all the bases, I think, and I'd really love everyone's input. I also like how Therise brought the Night Serpent in... I'll have to borrow that. I had something similar, but I may substitute some of Mask's part for Dender.
So if the Ruamathari Arcanotechs forged a Golemic housing strong-enough to hold the Night serpent, would it then be called Bender? (the robot god of evil, not to be confuse with the Robot Devil).
Aww, cmon... tell me Zoiberg isn't an Illithid and Kiff is a Spellweaver! Geeze... the show even has a Cyclopskin! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 20:53:40 |
|
|
|
Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 11:01:05
|
| That's an interesting name, Daxurge. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 16:29:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That's an interesting name, Daxurge.
Where does "Daxurge" come from*? ...and how is it pronounced?
* that is, what's the origin of "Mulhorand Prestige Classes and Sundry"? Is it someone's home brew addition?
|
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 23 Dec 2010 18:25:17 |
|
|
|
Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 19:06:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
that is, what's the origin of "Mulhorand Prestige Classes and Sundry"? Is it someone's home brew addition?
This is Scott Bennie's work who is the author of FR10 Old Empires.
You can find this work here:
http://kingstears.tripod.com/downloads/OldEmpiresMay2003withbackground.pdf |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
|
|
|
Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 20:24:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
that is, what's the origin of "Mulhorand Prestige Classes and Sundry"? Is it someone's home brew addition?
This is Scott Bennie's work who is the author of FR10 Old Empires.
You can find this work here:
http://kingstears.tripod.com/downloads/OldEmpiresMay2003withbackground.pdf
That's awesome, thanks for the link. I always did like Mulhorand, even though I know it wasn't popular with a lot of folks. I'll definitely put this to good use in my Faerun, where Mulhorand still exists.  |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 16:54:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And just because this whole thing is D&D, I'd like to think there was a fourth member of their little group (A Warrior, a Mage, A Thief, and a priest). Not sure which way to go with that, except the priest should be female, only because the other three are male. I suspect their knowledge of 'ancient, fallen powers' stemmed from that source (and set them on their quest for godhood).
She (or he) may have been betrayed by the others (I'm picturing a sacrifice here), died early during the quest, or turned on the others (a change of heart?) It could go any which way at that point, considering that's homebrew piled on top of pure conjecture.
Hmmmm... if I tie this to my musing about the mortal survival of kiputytto... this may solve yet another lore conundrum. If anyone would have known quite a bit about FR's cosmology, it would have been one of its fallen powers.
Actually, if anything, I'd place Myrkul as a multi-class character (in 3E). I think he'd make an interesting mystic theurge type character, but the priest type class he could be from would be the one from one of the later 3E books (the one where they're researchers and use INT instead of WIS, and they aren't beholden to any deity). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 17:26:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
that is, what's the origin of "Mulhorand Prestige Classes and Sundry"? Is it someone's home brew addition?
This is Scott Bennie's work who is the author of FR10 Old Empires.
You can find this work here:
http://kingstears.tripod.com/downloads/OldEmpiresMay2003withbackground.pdf
That's awesome, thanks for the link. I always did like Mulhorand, even though I know it wasn't popular with a lot of folks. I'll definitely put this to good use in my Faerun, where Mulhorand still exists.
Yeah, I've always liked Scott's work. Thanks for the link. I know what I'll be reading the next few hours. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul and the bargain with Jergal
