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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 01:45:56
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Very interesting, Mark; thanks for commenting. And yes, I've been following your postings on cosmological theology with great interest. I'm currently mapping all Realms deities to RW historical myth, some of which has already been done by other scribes (Helm -> Heimdall, Milil -> Apollo, and Ed's comment that Gond was modeled on Vulcan/Hephaestus, as well as the splitting of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba, and the name change of Hecate to Mystra (iirc)). It struck me, looking at the illustrations in 2E's Faiths and Avatars, just how much the (priest? avatar?) of Talos looks like Odin... that's another possibility, and I'm also with you on the Odin-Annam connection. On a related note, Othea could be the Greek titaness/elder goddess Ourea, whose name means "mountains"... ultimately, what I expect to end up with is the elimination of "interloper gods" in their entirety; all deities found in the Realms are brought to other worlds from the Realms, not vice-versa. I would like to have some "native Realmsian" names for deities like Loviatar, Silvanus, and Oghma, but that's a cosmetic detail for later.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 01:50:08
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Oh... and just to return this scroll to original topic more closely... has anything more been uncovered recently on the Dark Three, specifically regarding their time as mortals? I've narrowed down their approximate date of ascension to my satisfaction, but I know that there are strong speculations that they were originally from another world. Has there been any more development on this, or is it another dusty and forgotten NDA that will never see the light of day? 
Edit: And I know Jergal is buried in NDAs, so I won't even ask about him. There's just enough lore floating around regarding him to make me want more... and it's not coming out.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 16 Sep 2010 01:51:45 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 06:32:01
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All I know is that Myrkul was a Prince of Murghom.
EDIT:
As for Jergal...I'm going to put out my take on him soon enough...well, in about three months or so. It obviously won't be official, but I'm going to at least see if Ed will wink at it and smile! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 16 Sep 2010 06:34:49 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 08:34:57
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| Murghom? Myrkul is from the Mere of Dead Men, before it was created. |
z455t |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 00:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Murghom? Myrkul is from the Mere of Dead Men, before it was created.
Well, that strictly conflicts with information I have saying he is a Prince from Murghom...I'll look that up and see where I got it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 01:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Murghom? Myrkul is from the Mere of Dead Men, before it was created.
Well, that strictly conflicts with information I have saying he is a Prince from Murghom...I'll look that up and see where I got it.
It's from the "Monument of the Ancients" adventure in DUNGEON #170, which offers this little tidbit:-
quote:
The necromancer was the most reserved of the three dark heroes, a gangling man of advancing years, speaking in a high whisper and largely keeping to himself. His emaciated form was shrouded within dark robes, the man’s cold eyes bespoke of malign intelligence and eldritch might. His given name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 03:35:49
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What he said!
I hadn't remembered that he was the Crown Prince though... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 17:52:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Murghom? Myrkul is from the Mere of Dead Men, before it was created.
Well, that strictly conflicts with information I have saying he is a Prince from Murghom...I'll look that up and see where I got it.
It's from the "Monument of the Ancients" adventure in DUNGEON #170, which offers this little tidbit:-
quote:
The necromancer was the most reserved of the three dark heroes, a gangling man of advancing years, speaking in a high whisper and largely keeping to himself. His emaciated form was shrouded within dark robes, the man#65533;s cold eyes bespoke of malign intelligence and eldritch might. His given name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm.
So what is known about Bane and Bhaal's past? Any such tidbits?
And oh, I just remembered - somebody at WotC forums wanted to know Cyric's given name. Was it written down anywhere? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 19:56:15
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Just because someone managed to achieve a level of power in one place does NOT preclude the evidence that he held power elsewhere at some other point.
Given the title 'the crown prince', one must assume that his place in Murghom history is part of the established nobility/royalty, so that is merely a 'starting point'. We can also assume that he never made it to be King, else the more grand title would have been applied.
So I would surmise that, for whatever reason, he left (or more-likely was 'ejected' from) Murghom and traveled west, to settle in the mere of dead Men before ascending.
Now, as for conjecture about the Dark Three - I like to think that Bane was a Sharakim (which I think is the race that spawned the Scro - same folk, just that the Scro took to space). And although I have no canon basis for saying there were any Sharkim in the realms, RAS was kind-enough to provide us with a 'mysterious city' from the past, that held some very advanced Orcs.
So my current theory is that Bane was from there (Baffenburg), although maybe not directly, since he appears to be a half-orc. I'm thinking he, two, may have been a prince - that his father was fully orc and one of the rulers of Baffenburg. Perhaps after the catastrophe that sent that town to the Realms Below, the survivors fled east, and Bane's father may have married a human female after arriving in the Thar region. Then Bane grows up hearing tales of their 'former glory', and embittered by whatever treachery befell (or imagined treachery), Bane began down that road of achieving that which he believed was owed to him - to rule. Hence, his drive toward tyranny. Being a prince of a fallen land, and a half-breed to boot seems to fit my profiling of him - he is a the ultimate 'over-achiever'.
Since we have, in canon, a group of non-violent orcs living in the Moonsea north - the Ondonti - it is quite plausible that most of the Orcish survivors of whatever happened there fled east and settled that area north of the Moonsea. This may have coincided with the fall of Netheril, so the way may have been easier at that point (no desert yet).
After the fall of the Dworcish city (not my word, BTW - RAS used it in the novel), he traveled to the Moonsea region, and fell-in with two other like-minded individuals.
And just because this whole thing is D&D, I'd like to think there was a fourth member of their little group (A Warrior, a Mage, A Thief, and a priest). Not sure which way to go with that, except the priest should be female, only because the other three are male. I suspect their knowledge of 'ancient, fallen powers' stemmed from that source (and set them on their quest for godhood).
She (or he) may have been betrayed by the others (I'm picturing a sacrifice here), died early during the quest, or turned on the others (a change of heart?) It could go any which way at that point, considering that's homebrew piled on top of pure conjecture.
Hmmmm... if I tie this to my musing about the mortal survival of kiputytto... this may solve yet another lore conundrum. If anyone would have known quite a bit about FR's cosmology, it would have been one of its fallen powers.
P.S. - do we have any sort of date for the fall of Gauntlgrym? It would be nice to tie Baffenburg to it somehow, as maybe a unique settlement (because the dwarves would NOT have allowed the sharakim inside their city). We have several dwarvish kingdoms all falling around the time Netheril fell, so this seems to be a good target date, and puts Bane's rise into the right time-frame. The refugees may have even used The Low Road (I think that's what it was called) and traveled east beneath Anauroch.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2010 20:13:58 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 21:31:23
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| What do you think about Bane being a Half-Orog? Having both Orcish and Ogre ancestors...I thought about that while reading your post. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 23:26:27
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Well, if his mother was a half-ogre (and half human), that would make some sense. Not sure what a human/Ogre crossbreed would be - we have two types for Orc/Ogres.
In my own homdbrew, there is a connection between Ogres and Hags. Ogres are the unwanted male children of hags that have bred with human males (and then ate them, most likely). I got the idea for that from the Hagspawn in Unapproachable east, and I really fell in love with the idea.
So perhaps his mother was a Hag, and he turned-out to be something like an Ogrillon. I like the fiendish connections there for Bane, but not sure if it fits with how I see things falling out for the displaced Sharakim of The North. Perhaps his mother took human form, so as to fool the Sharakim king? That would give him a nice mix of Orc, human, and Fiendish/Ogre blood.
What have you done for that 'lost kingdom' in that region? Could that have possibly been the advanced orcish kingdom referred to in the Elminster's Ecologies booklet? It states that the Ogres of Thar hired Orcish merenaries, which I had assumed were from Vastarr, but maybe they were the wanderers from fallen Baffenburg?
Once Bane rises to power, I could see a split amongst his people due to his demeanor. While many would follow 'the Tyrant' blindly, others may have split-off and found their own path (the Ondonti). The ones that followed Bane may have become 'the people of the Black Sails' (or the orcish equivalent).
Oh, and using my homebrew lore regarding Ogres, then one would have to assume the entire race is derived from cross-breeding, since Hagspawn are only male. There is a smallish giant (like an intelligent hill giant) in the East, and there are also the Ogre-Magi living there, who are really Wang-Liang; Ogre/Fiend (Oni) crossbreeds. I have some thoughts that the Ogre race derived from Hagspawn (note that they come from 'the east' as well) mating with those smallish Giants. Then the OgreMagi/WangLiang would be similar to Tanaruk, except with Ogres involved. It could be the hag-blood that enables the Ogremagi to be 'better' then their Tanaruk counterparts (as in, 'smarter' and more civilized).
I took this MUCH further in the homebrew world I am working on - FR makes for such a great source of inspiration. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2010 23:36:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 00:08:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, as for conjecture about the Dark Three - I like to think that Bane was a Sharakim (which I think is the race that spawned the Scro - same folk, just that the Scro took to space).
The scro came from ordinary orcs. They were spacefaring orcs defeated in the First Unhuman War. A group of them, lead by a visionary orc named Dukagsh, landed on some unnamed world. Dukagsh then whipped them into shape, making them into an articulate, militaristic, and dedicated force. It was he who named them scro, because what they had become was different from ordinary orcs. And then he later became their patron deity.
Scro are now a distinct race.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 01:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, if his mother was a half-ogre (and half human), that would make some sense. Not sure what a human/Ogre crossbreed would be - we have two types for Orc/Ogres.
In my own homdbrew, there is a connection between Ogres and Hags. Ogres are the unwanted male children of hags that have bred with human males (and then ate them, most likely). I got the idea for that from the Hagspawn in Unapproachable east, and I really fell in love with the idea.
So perhaps his mother was a Hag, and he turned-out to be something like an Ogrillon. I like the fiendish connections there for Bane, but not sure if it fits with how I see things falling out for the displaced Sharakim of The North. Perhaps his mother took human form, so as to fool the Sharakim king? That would give him a nice mix of Orc, human, and Fiendish/Ogre blood.
What have you done for that 'lost kingdom' in that region? Could that have possibly been the advanced orcish kingdom referred to in the Elminster's Ecologies booklet? It states that the Ogres of Thar hired Orcish merenaries, which I had assumed were from Vastarr, but maybe they were the wanderers from fallen Baffenburg?
Once Bane rises to power, I could see a split amongst his people due to his demeanor. While many would follow 'the Tyrant' blindly, others may have split-off and found their own path (the Ondonti). The ones that followed Bane may have become 'the people of the Black Sails' (or the orcish equivalent).
Oh, and using my homebrew lore regarding Ogres, then one would have to assume the entire race is derived from cross-breeding, since Hagspawn are only male. There is a smallish giant (like an intelligent hill giant) in the East, and there are also the Ogre-Magi living there, who are really Wang-Liang; Ogre/Fiend (Oni) crossbreeds. I have some thoughts that the Ogre race derived from Hagspawn (note that they come from 'the east' as well) mating with those smallish Giants. Then the OgreMagi/WangLiang would be similar to Tanaruk, except with Ogres involved. It could be the hag-blood that enables the Ogremagi to be 'better' then their Tanaruk counterparts (as in, 'smarter' and more civilized).
I took this MUCH further in the homebrew world I am working on - FR makes for such a great source of inspiration.
I've decided that the Orcs of Thar are the Grey Orcs that came to the area indeed from the Vast area after the race's retreat north from the empires of Unther and Mulhorand.
HOWEVER, I did also make a connection to the orcs of The North...because I had to account for the more common Mountain Orc type of Orc Horde that has sometimes come down from Thar against the cities there and beyond.
The Grey Orcs are very distrustful in general, even of other orc clans their description says. In essence, I tied both races together to make a rather different type of Orc for Thar...they are more akin to the Mountain Orcs over all in disposition, but also very religious like the Grey Orcs (thus their ability to summon magic that enabled them to sink North Keep).
I like your idea about the "people of the Black Sail" though...have to look at that some more. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 02:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Murghom? Myrkul is from the Mere of Dead Men, before it was created.
Well, that strictly conflicts with information I have saying he is a Prince from Murghom...I'll look that up and see where I got it.
It's from the "Monument of the Ancients" adventure in DUNGEON #170, which offers this little tidbit:-
quote:
The necromancer was the most reserved of the three dark heroes, a gangling man of advancing years, speaking in a high whisper and largely keeping to himself. His emaciated form was shrouded within dark robes, the man#65533;s cold eyes bespoke of malign intelligence and eldritch might. His given name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm.
So what is known about Bane and Bhaal's past? Any such tidbits?
There's some new bits about Bane's mortal servants, but that's about it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 20:12:34
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There are actually far more then two types of Orcs in FR (but not nearly as many as Elf-subtypes).
Anyhow, Thar and the surrounding area has plenty of room for both. Assume the Orcs living on the plains (near the Ogres) are the 'better' versions, more civilized and able to deal with others.
The Green Orcs would live in the surrounding hills and mountains, just as nearly all Northern Orcs do.
You can even spin an offshot of crossbreeding the two; quite often a new creature is superior in some way to both its parents. Maybe the Ondonti are 'light green'?
Not sure what the most common type is amongst the Zhents, but they also seem smarter and better able to control themselves when among others races. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Sep 2010 20:13:40 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 01:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are actually far more then two types of Orcs in FR (but not nearly as many as Elf-subtypes).
Anyhow, Thar and the surrounding area has plenty of room for both. Assume the Orcs living on the plains (near the Ogres) are the 'better' versions, more civilized and able to deal with others.
The Green Orcs would live in the surrounding hills and mountains, just as nearly all Northern Orcs do.
You can even spin an offshot of crossbreeding the two; quite often a new creature is superior in some way to both its parents. Maybe the Ondonti are 'light green'?
Not sure what the most common type is amongst the Zhents, but they also seem smarter and better able to control themselves when among others races.
Exactly, my new "breed" of orc is the Tharian Orc...both green and grey together. The more civilized of them are the semi-nomadic orcs that live in Thar proper, while the mountain and hill orcs would be like where I come from...kinda hillbilly orcs.
I like the idea about the Ondonti being perhaps a superior orc because they took the better genes from their ancestors.
EDIT: forgot the on topic part of what I was going to say.
I've thought a bit about Bhaal, and how he plays into this whole deal. I thought it was rather odd how he had numerous manifestations (for lack of a better word) waiting to fill in his shoes. Much like Manshoon has many stasis clones. It then occurred to me that perhaps Bhaal was a bit more than a simple thief, assassin or warrior; but indeed may have known a bit about magic...and that magic is what Manshoon based his Stasis Clone spell on.
The similarities between Bhaal's manifestations/aspects and Manshoon's Stasis Clones was too much for me to NOT mention. Even if it was Myrkul who had a hand in the whole affair...still makes me wonder. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 20 Sep 2010 01:32:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2010 : 23:40:01
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I assume Bane was the consummate warrior (king), Myrkul the Archmage Necromancer, and Baal the Nefarious ultimate Assassin.
From their long-time association, the skills of the others would have been picked-up to some extent, I'm thinking, but what someone does after they ascend has little bearing on their mortal life - Cyric was doing a lot of magic after he ascended as well.
If anything, the clone spell may be distantly related to a deity's ability to create Avatars. Bane probably placed a part of his essence within his mortal progeny, in much the same way that Mystra 'stores' pieces of herself within her Chosen. According to 3e DD, a deity may create a number of Avatars equal to it's DvR (I could be remembering this wrong - not near sources), and while these Avatars are manifested it loses a number of DvR temporarily until it rejoins these pieces to itself. If an Avatar is destroyed, then a deity must 'heal' that bit of energy before returning to full power (which is why deities are not so quick to use this method to store bits of themselves within mortals - they risk losing that power permanently).
So Bane took a risk by doing this, but it was a risk obviously worth taking.
It also gives us a precedent for bringing back ANY deity we want in FR. 
As an aside, I find it rather odd that Selune is at the level she is at, considering she is supposed to be Shar's equal. It seems plausible to me that she has much power hidden somewhere herself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2010 18:07:17 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 00:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I assume Bane was the consummate warrior (king), Myrkul the Archmage Necromancer, and Baal the Nefarious ultimate Assassin.
From their long-time association, the skills of the others would have been picked-up to some extent, I'm thinking. What someone does after they ascend has no bearing on their mortal life - Cyric was doing a lot of magic after he ascended as well.
If anything, the clone spell may be distantly relayed to a deity's ability to create Avatars. Bane probably placed a part of his essence within his mortal progeny, in much the same way that Mystra 'stores' pieces of herself within her Chosen. According to 3e DD, a deity may create a number of Avatars equal to it's DvR (I could be remembering this wrong - not near sources), and while these Avatars are manifested it loses a number of DvR temporarily until it rejoins these pieces to itself. If an Avatar is destroyed, then a deity must 'heal' that bit of energy before returning to full power (which is why deities are not so quick to use this method to store bits of themselves within mortals - they risk losing that power permanently).
So Bane took a risk by doing this, but it was a risk obviously worth taking.
It also gives us a precedent for bringing back ANY deity we want in FR.
As an aside, I find it rather odd that Selune is at the level she is at, considering she is supposed to be Shar's equal. It seems plausible to me that she has much power hidden somewhere herself.
Selune ebbs and flows with the tides it seems; like the waxing and waning of the moon.
All teasing aside, I think it has more to do with how much power Mystra has at the time. I have a feeling that were Mystra not alive, as in 4e Realms, then Selune is far more powerful. From what I've been reading, Selune's power seems to rise and fall with the passing of ages...almost at the same time that Great Magical Civilizations have come and gone.
I won't say that I KNOW that to be true...but it seems to me so.
In this way, it seems like she has vested HER power in her own progeny Mystra...like Bhaal did and Bane did.
With Mystra "dead" in 4e, perhaps Selune is far more powerful.
With the power of Bhaal mostly usurped by Cyric, I don't see him making a comeback.
Myrkul might not WANT to make a comeback...
And Bane, well, I'm rather sure that fella just can't let go. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 01:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Myrkul might not WANT to make a comeback...
No might not at all, he does not want to make a comeback.
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 02:04:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Myrkul might not WANT to make a comeback...
No might not at all, he does not want to make a comeback.
From the City of Splendors boxed set:
quote:
Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction).
Indeed. As I've said before, I don't think it's really any surprise that Myrkul "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be.
As it is... I do like the idea of Myrkul in this state. If I had followed the path of the ToT in my campaign, 'tis likely this version of Myrkul would indeed be a part of my FR. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 02:46:18
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I think about that sometimes and wonder: Why wouldn't Myrkul want SOMETHING more. Perhaps not a return to divinity, maybe realizing he had been duped by Jergal all along...but at least toward some goal other than destruction.
The only reason I can think of that he likes where he is and how he is would be that his condition actually prevents him from wanting more. Maybe he is little more than a Sentient Magical Artifact now and there is really little left of the "true" Myrkul.
I don't know...but if I was trapped in an item, I would want to get out...kinda like Shoon did with the female elf! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2010 : 18:59:16
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Not being 'contentious', just easier to respond this way -
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Selune ebbs and flows with the tides it seems; like the waxing and waning of the moon... <snip> From what I've been reading, Selune's power seems to rise and fall with the passing of ages...almost at the same time that Great Magical Civilizations have come and gone.
I never liked that - The MOON controls the tides, NOT the other way 'round. If anything, those civilizations 'ebbed ad flowed' due to HER influence, not vice-versa.
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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
All teasing aside, I think it has more to do with how much power Mystra has at the time. I have a feeling that were Mystra not alive, as in 4e Realms, then Selune is far more powerful.<snip>
In this way, it seems like she has vested HER power in her own progeny Mystra...like Bhaal did and Bane did.
Thats not a bad theory - Mystra is what Bane and Baal's children 'might have been'. Basically, any Avatar could possibly achieve its own sentience and 'break away' from its creator (in time), and divine essence placed specifically in a mortal shell is much more likely to do so (not having to develop 'free will' - it already has that). Since Mystra is supposedly composed of bits of both Selune and Shar (maybe thats how they lost their 'Primordialness'?), she had a nice 'jump-start' over many other self-willed Avatars, and therefor was able to achieve an incredibly high level of power.
However, I have a theory that Shar has been 'siphoning-off' the part of her that was 'stolen' by Mystra - I think that may be the real reason behind the 'Shadoweave'. It's almost like an insanely powerful 'Weave Tap' (that thing created by the Sojourner). In other words, Mystra was always the goddess of all magic, but chose to focus on her positive (Arcane) aspect, rather then her negative (Shadow) one. She may have done that with the purpose in-mind to weaken Shar through her portfolio, or it may have just been a tactical error. Either way, Shar was able to create her own construct and 'steal back' that which should have been hers all along.
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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
With Mystra "dead" in 4e, perhaps Selune is far more powerful.
Yes, and so is Shar - both should have returned to their 'Primordial States' after Mystra's destruction (unless Shar decided to keep the Shadoweave around, but I doubt it - if my theory holds any water then she should have absorbed it back into herself after Mystra was eliminated.)
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
With the power of Bhaal mostly usurped by Cyric, I don't see him making a comeback.
Myrkul might not WANT to make a comeback...
And Bane, well, I'm rather sure that fella just can't let go.
Bane, simply because it is his nature to do so. A Tyrant can never admit that something else could possibly take his place, and therefor he must 'maintain control' at all costs. He probably doesn't even have any choice in the matter - for all we know he himself may have been a 'relic' of some other, earlier god. This ties in with my musings on core-Bane. What if Bane was from another world (as you thoerized), and was a Chosen of core Bane? Filled with divine essence, he could have found a way to achieve independence and become a deity in his own right, after taking some power from the Seven Lost Gods.
Baal could return - anyone could, but that would be a DM's option - not something WotC will ever do, I would imagine.
Myrkul, same thing. I find it significant that a portion of him was trapped within a powerful artifact... very similar to the Weave and Shadoweave (both Uber-powerful artifacts themselves.)quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The only reason I can think of that he likes where he is and how he is would be that his condition actually prevents him from wanting more. Maybe he is little more than a Sentient Magical Artifact now and there is really little left of the "true" Myrkul.
Precisely. The Myrkul trapped inside of the Crown could just be something - a budding consciousness - that only thinks it's Myrkul. It would be a remnant (bit of Power/Avatar) of the original.
Mystra was NOT a God - she was the sentience of an incredibly ancient, powerful artifact. Now, we know that deities (and Primordials, I suppose - once again, at these levels of power there really is little difference aside from genealogy and semantics) can take part of their power and invest it in an Avatar, or a Chosen (a mortal avatar), so why couldn't they do the same thing with an artifact? We know artifacts can achieve sentience, so they fulfill the requirements obviously, so why not a piece of 'divine essence'? Wasn't Mask able to create an Avatar that was also an artifact (Godsbane)?
And speaking of Mask, and taking all this 'Divine Theory' a step further, then shouldn't it be entirely possible that the Shadoweave also developed a consciousness of it's own? We know Mask is the 'product' of Shar, as is the Shadoweave.
Mask just never really achieved the level of power his 'cousin' Mystra did - either he was too late in forming his own identity, or his creator - Shar - kept him on a tight leash.
And at all these incredible levels of power, what, exactly, is the difference between an 'artifact', and actual 'divine being', when both seem to be able to be created spontaneously by a true deity?
If it has to do with the 'input' of another being (usually another deity, but not necessarily) for a construct to be considered wholly another being, rather then an artifact, then many of our RW mythological 'gods' should be considered 'artifacts'.
I think the input of a second (or more) divine being in the creation-process merely 'speeds-up' the development of self-awareness within a construct.
And technically, both artifacts and children are 'constructs'.
Hmmm... wonder what happens when I apply this theory to Lolth and her offspring... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2010 19:07:35 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 22:02:35
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Crown of Horns could fit into the story about Arawn and Jergal that we discussed
it's not a theory, Bane is from another world, it's in Ruins of Adventure or somewhere
tough the original article says Bane is based on Druaga, not Hiisi |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 23:05:15
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And Druaga appears to have been made-up just for D&D. 
But I never tried to make any sort of real connection between Hiisi and Bane - its just the illustration that always came to mind when I pictured him, is all.
A great, big hulking figure who looks really mean and dresses in richly attire. Not to mention the massive club to smash all opposition to his rule.
Its just a visual thing, nothing more.
Edit: While trying to find the elusive Druaga, I stumbled across this - Kronos is sometimes associated with death (he is pictured with a scythe). Isn't Kronos canon in FR? Perhaps this 'lost god' was an earlier incarnation of death, either pre-dating Jergal, or maybe another 'duped' into taking up the mantle for a time (Jergal may have a long history of getting others to hold the portfolio).
Then again, 'Kronos' may have also been a Dathite term for Jergal himself (I figure many of FR's interloping races would have found suitable replacements for 'missing' gods in their pantheon). Death and Time, although seemingly different portfolios, are both conducive to a God of Entropy - a being who works toward 'the end of all things'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2010 23:36:29 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2010 : 23:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Crown of Horns could fit into the story about Arawn and Jergal that we discussed
it's not a theory, Bane is from another world, it's in Ruins of Adventure or somewhere
tough the original article says Bane is based on Druaga, not Hiisi
I just read through Ruins of Adventure a few weeks ago from front to back...I must have skimmed over this part...can you refer me to the page where it says Bane is from another world?
What article mentions that Druaga is a possible basis for Bane?
Thanks for any help! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 00:23:41
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If Druaga has any presence in the Realms, I would say he is part of whatever Pantheon Garagos came from - the whole 'multi-limbed thing' seems very eastern, to me.
Does Jergal have multiple limbs? Either way, deities can appear however they want, and he could always have extra limbs hidden beneath his robes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 00:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Crown of Horns could fit into the story about Arawn and Jergal that we discussed
What did you have in mind? I'm honestly unfamiliar with the creation of the Crown of Horns... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2010 : 10:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Druaga appears to have been made-up just for D&D.
He's a Sumerian/Babylonian god of the underworld, just like Nergal.
Maybe he was ousted by Gilgeam, that's why Bane's biggest temple is in Mourktar.
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Originally posted by Markustay
Then again, 'Kronos' may have also been a Dathite term for Jergal himself (I figure many of FR's interloping races would have found suitable replacements for 'missing' gods in their pantheon). Death and Time, although seemingly different portfolios, are both conducive to a God of Entropy - a being who works toward 'the end of all things'.
Possible, why not, that would further complicate things with the Tripartite sun theory, Labelas and the Dawn Cataclysm.
In my world I merged Jergal and Golarion's Groetus into Kroetus, it has the portfolios of fate, time, endings, inevitability, truenames, ash.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I just read through Ruins of Adventure a few weeks ago from front to back...I must have skimmed over this part...can you refer me to the page where it says Bane is from another world?
What article mentions that Druaga is a possible basis for Bane?
Thanks for any help!
I can't remember the source, maybe it's some other adventure than Ruins of Adventure, I'm sure it's in the beginning of it, written in italic font.
Also in the Stormlight novel, it says Bane was from another, weird world.
The article was Dragon 54, Down to Earth Divinity.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If Druaga has any presence in the Realms, I would say he is part of whatever Pantheon Garagos came from - the whole 'multi-limbed thing' seems very eastern, to me.
Does Jergal have multiple limbs? Either way, deities can appear however they want, and he could always have extra limbs hidden beneath his robes.
Jergal is thri-kreen/spellweaver, he had them at some time, maybe they atrophied. For Garagos, I pictured him related to mariliths, but it fits with Jergal. There's the ''Meeting of the Three'' in the Border Kingdoms, maybe these three preceded the Dark Three, imagine Bast as an assassin.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What did you have in mind? I'm honestly unfamiliar with the creation of the Crown of Horns...
Pure speculation, if the black diamond inside the artifact is the Black Diamond that corrupted Auril (and Laeral), that would open a lot of possibilities. The crown was created by Trebbe of Netheril and I think Moander (Dark god) was behind the accident that caused his death. Coincidentally when Khelben shattered the Crown, Moander awakened in Yulash and was slain by Finder, which allowed Myrkul to possess the Crown. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 03:44:20
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Is Druaga real? I mean RW? I found a reference to him only once, outside of the 1e DD guide, and wasn't able to find it again when I posted that.
"The meeting of the Three" in the Border Kingdoms? I never really read Powers of Faerûn in it's entirety - perhaps I should. 
I have speculated in the past that Baast's Torillian existence predates the rest of the Mulan pantheon (in the Utter east material), and I can definitely see Baast as 'the Hunter' and using her natural stealthiness for assassinations. There is a Panther-headed Goddess down in the jungles of northern Zakhara that fits that profile; perhaps that is an earlier manifestation of her? I forget the name - I think she was hanging out with a Crocodile-headed guy (which could be Set, but that would be weird for them to be on the same side, let alone 'mates'). I REALLY need to get back to my sources - I'm just taking shots in the dark here without them.
As for the tri-patriate deity thing with the sun - NOT a big fan of that. I was mildly upset that they decided to lean that way with canon. If there is a 'dusk lord', I'd rather it not be Jergal (although Jergal passing it off to someone every time it is his turn to step down would be kinda cool and in-character).
We have two suns in canon in FR - the original that was destroyed by Shar (IIRC), and the second one Selune created. There are also two suns in the Draconic creation myths. There is no reason to bring a third into things - the two are fine and fit the Creation myths perfectly. The rising sun, and the setting sun - both can rule for a time during 'midday' (which would have been the couple of centuries after the fall of Netheril). I also think they brought Aumanator back too soon - the two-sun theory works, but a 300 hundred year cycle seems too short to me. Its just a matter of taste, but a thousand year or even two thousand year cycle seems more appropriate (but that's just me). I suppose when you throw the third sun in you can do a 333 1/3 year cycle, giving you the thousand years, but I'm still not comfortable with an extra sun.
HOWEVER, if we take into account the 4e lore, there IS three suns - the original, the replacement, and the second (really third) one created by Ao when he seperated Abeir from Toril. Assuming, of course, that Abeir has a sun - one never knows, with that strange, silver sky.
Which means, perhaps, that during his 'down time', the third god is sent to Abeir. A bit hokey, but it's workable. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2010 22:12:42 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2010 : 09:54:29
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Three suns, that's nothing, I have 5, inspired by the myths of Aztecs and Maya, tough it's always the same sun reigniting. I think that draconic sun turned out to be an ice moon or a comet in GHotR. Abeir has that Steelsky made from the Dawn Titan Arambar.
The Meeting of the Tree is in Powers and Pantheons actually. Bast's assassin side must be from the time she flirted with Shar. And yes Druaga is from our world (Sumer). Not that I'm saying Bane is him, only inspired. |
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Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul and the bargain with Jergal
