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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 00:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And just because this whole thing is D&D, I'd like to think there was a fourth member of their little group (A Warrior, a Mage, A Thief, and a priest). Not sure which way to go with that, except the priest should be female, only because the other three are male. I suspect their knowledge of 'ancient, fallen powers' stemmed from that source (and set them on their quest for godhood).
She (or he) may have been betrayed by the others (I'm picturing a sacrifice here), died early during the quest, or turned on the others (a change of heart?) It could go any which way at that point, considering that's homebrew piled on top of pure conjecture.
Hmmmm... if I tie this to my musing about the mortal survival of kiputytto... this may solve yet another lore conundrum. If anyone would have known quite a bit about FR's cosmology, it would have been one of its fallen powers.
Actually, if anything, I'd place Myrkul as a multi-class character (in 3E). I think he'd make an interesting mystic theurge type character, but the priest type class he could be from would be the one from one of the later 3E books (the one where they're researchers and use INT instead of WIS, and they aren't beholden to any deity).
Hmph.
Myrkul was the Mage. The priest I am referring to is a hypothetical fourth member of their group. Pure conjecture, and I had only thought of that because of the D&D trope of your 'basic adventuring party'.
Myrkul was from Murghôm, and one of it's princes. I think he is the atypical 'black sheep' of the family, and more-then-likely NOT the heir-apparent (simply because that jealousy is the most obvious starting point for the series of events which became his life). The only other thing we know about him is that he is somehow connected to the Crown of Horns, perhaps having even fashioned it during his lifetime (which makes some sense, given the 'jealousy' scenario I described above). However, I think the crown is even more ancient, and was perhaps given to him by Jergal (poising as Anubis?)
Bane was not from Toril, IIRC, and appears to have been either a half-orc, or something much more: Some sort of 'High Orc', akin to the Scro of SJ or the Sharakim (Gawd-awful name) of RoD. With the new 4e lore in-mind, this becomes even more likely, and it could be he worshiped Corbane (my name for Core Bane  ). Like many other ascended mortals, he probably had 'a sponsor', and the Core version of Bane makes an excellent choice (who probably wanted to establich an exarch/Avatar within Realmspace).
Bhaal is a conundrum. Until the recent revelations about Myrkul's past, they were about tied for lack-of-lore. Pure Conjecture: He probably was an acolyte of Baal (Ba‘al Zebûb). That Power appears to have been divine at some point, fallen, and is also listed as both a demon and devil (although I think both could be true - if he had fallen, he was obviously NOT 'of them', and could become either by association*). In any case, his portfolio seems to have been closely related to Bane's (both core & FR), in that he was connected to 'lordship'. Interestingly, Baal was a god of the sun, who died... sound familiar? At some point I feel this affected his 'sunny' disposition (death will do that), and he was cast-out of 'the Heavens' and now serves in Hell. Once again, a LOT of conjecture there, and one can assume that he is still angry about his 'fall', and his association with murder could be his eventual plan to take-over Hell itself (because It's better to rule in Hell, then serve in Heaven, or so I've heard). 
Or it could simply be Murder was the one portfolio left for Bhaal, and Baal (his patron) could care less which he got, so long as he ascended and got a foothold in FR. In all three cases, it appears to have been 'outside powers' trying to establish themselves within Realmspace through servitor-Agents (Chosen). Both Bane and Bhaal took similar names to their patrons when they ascended in this non-canon scenario.
As for the mysterious (and purely Homebrew) member of the 'Dark Alliance' (later to become the 'Dark Three') - I think it was a female, and a fallen goddess trying to re-establish herself in the Realms (which fits the profile I have established for the other three's patrons). There is an odd entry in tCBoN (which is chock-full of Realmslore, even though it's 2eCore), which shows a VERY angry Loviatar confronting Cyric regarding her sister. Using some of my famous 'all-purpose lore-glue', I have reasoned that the 'sister' was none other then Kipu-tyttö, who had an established presence in Realmspace at one time.
Here is my line of reasoning - Kipu-tyttö was a power of the ancient Kalmyk (Kalevala), a people who later (after a civil war) spread south and then west. They were the forerunners of the Raumvari peoples (Raumathari, Rashemi, Nar, etc), and were an agressive, highly-mobile (cavalry) culture that dominated the Ice sea (Yal-Tengri) thousands of years ago. As these peoples spread to other regions, they brought their pantheon with them. Over time, many of their gods fell by the wayside, and new, Faerûnian powers took their place. Three sisters remained active however - Kipu-tyttö, Loviatar, and Mielikki, and were brought into 'The Heartlands' by wandering Gur (another off-shoot of the Kalmyk).
Those Gur migrated across the Northern Moonsea region - and some remained in The Ride (the Eraka) - and settled in the then-fertile Anauroch Basin, around the Narrow Sea. Some continued on, and became the early Angardt, and the Mir (Tunland Barbarians), but the majority of them found the narrow sea area a wonderful and verdant region, perfect to build their permanent homes. We know from canon that a barbarian people became the folk of Seventon, and later the Netherease. This means that a good portion of the early Netherease (Seventon period) gods derived from what we know as the 'Finnish' pantheon (known by that name on Earth, but like all the others, they are multi-spheric in nature).
There was a group of powers also spreading east from the Swordcoast, worshiped by the Talfiric peoples. This group contained many Celtic/Fey powers amongst its pantheon. Wherever these two groups met, they clashed, and in most cases either one deity perished, and/or its energy absorbed by the other power, or one chose to serve the other, retaining a smaller aspect of it's portfolio.
An assumption must be made at this point: Thaeravel, the Land of Alabaster Towers, pre-existed the Netherease Empire, and given its location (southern Anauroch/Goblin Marches), was probably Talfiric, at least in-part. I have some ideas here concerning where THEY got their arcane learning from, but I will save that when the CKC's start (hopefully) getting published again. Suffice it to say that their magical lore did NOT come from the Nether Scrolls, but derived from another source (which is why the Netherease had no knowledge of it). Another given is that Netherease culture began a very serious 'downward' trend at this point. Although always haughty, there is a definitive turning point wherein they became very unscrupulous in their quest for greater power. This is also when the Phaerimm became 'aware' of them.
Anyhow, Talona was a power of the Talfir and therefor was known in Thaeravel. Kipu-tyttö was known to the settlers of Seventon, and therefor a power of early Netheril. At some point, Kiputytto's church fell by the wayside, probably after the 'adoption' of the Talfiric pantheon into their own - since Shar and Moander were both accepted by the Netherease, and allies of Talona, Kiputyyo became redundant, and Talona's worship spread while her's became more cult-like in nature. However, among the older families and the elite (re: the Archwizards), Kiputytto was still venerated, and Talona became the goddess of disease amongst the 'common Netherease' (groundlings). This very volatile situation continued on throughout the height of the Netherease Empire, and is why no power is explicitly listed as the dominant one in Netheril lore (and not really mentioned at all - worshiping disease isn't something too many want known, and wasn't well documented).
This situation finally came to a head when Netheril fell - both goddesses took that as an opportunity to destroy the other, and countless battles took place in the survivor states (that's canon). The entire conflict came to it's conclusion between two cities, in what was once southern Netheril, and before that Thaeravel. These City-States once stood proudly where the Tun and Farsea Marshes do, and such was the utter devastation of the pestilence the two goddesses brought upon each other and their Faithful that the cities themselves sunk into a quagmire of rot and vileness (that part from the Elminster's Ecologies supplements on those swamps).
Homebrew fix for lore sanfus:
The final outcome was decided when Talona (probably with Shar's help) devised a method to use her portfolio against Kiputytto, something which was nearly impossible before since they shared identical areas of interest. Talona 'infected' her rival with the worst-possible ailment a deity could have... MORTALITY. Kiputytto would have perished immediately if not for the intervention of her sister Loviatar, who managed to hide her away (the third sister was involved, who asked a boon of Oghma). Kiputytto's essence was trapped within a mortal form, and she took on a new name and began to attempt to rebuild her old power-base and church, by recruiting persons of like-mind in the Moonsea North (where her ancient cult still had a few adherents). It was there that she met the Dark Three, and set them on their path to ascension (taking her along for the ride).
Unfortunately for Kiputytto, this entire scenario was engineered by Shar, including her meeting with the Dark Three, which was unknown to all involved (being the goddess of secrets comes in handy). Once her knowledge of fallen deities and other 'godly lore' was no longer needed, they turned on her (as she had planned to do to them), and she was nearly killed in a very ironic fashion - she was poisoned by Bhaal (and became sickened unto death). Once again, her sister became involved (this time without the help of the other deities), and placed her within a state of suspended animation in one of her old temples buried beneath the southern Anauroch, until such a time that she could cajole some power of healing to treat her (her own portfolio is NOT conducive to relieving pain and suffering). This was her second 'death', and she disappeared from Faerûn until the Avatar Crisis.
During the Time of Troubles, Ao proclaimed ALL gods of Toril be given mortal Avatars and should walk the Realms again. By his decree, Kiputytto was fully restored to her healthy mortal self and freed from stasis. She at-once set out to re-establish herself in The Realms... and ran afoul of Talona and her clergy, who killed her for a third and final time. Her 'return' was VERY short-lived, and this time her sister Loviatar was in no position to help her.
When the Avatar Crisis was over, and Loviatar once-again ascended to her deific state, she stormed into the god Cyric's halls and demanded the soul of her sister, who now resides with her in Loviatar's own divine realm. This is the scene we see on pg.65 of tCBoN (and why the newly-arisen Cyric was cowed by her).
Thus I have used conjecture from one thread to finally fix some other musings of mine concerning certain anomalies with FR lore. Nearly all of the above is homebrew, but it is all based in canon and doesn't violate any (AFAIK). I figured this was as good a place as any to present it, since I have now connected her to the 'Dark Three' (because I always felt they needed someone or thing to have given them the knowledge of the 'Lost Seven', which another fallen power would have been aware of). Until they turned on her, they would have been called 'the Dark Alliance' (another mild lore-snag rectified).
*You will note that aside from residing in hell and being called 'a devil', he in-fact looks more like a demon. I make the assumption here that 'demon' and 'devil' refer to beings within the hierarchies of the Abyss and Hell, while Tanar'ri & Baatezu are the actual indigenous (but not necessarily aboriginal) species that comprise the majority of the demons and devils. Using the 4e Graz'zt lore as an precedent, obviously beings can 'switch sides', and being a 'demon' or 'devil' depends more upon which side your aligned with (at the time). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 01:05:16 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 15:45:42
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Just out of interest: where is the lore connection between the Gur and the Netherese to be found?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 16:52:48
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quote:
Myrkul was from Murghôm, and one of it's princes. I think he is the atypical 'black sheep' of the family, and more-then-likely NOT the heir-apparent (simply because that jealousy is the most obvious starting point for the series of events which became his life). The only other thing we know about him is that he is somehow connected to the Crown of Horns, perhaps having even fashioned it during his lifetime (which makes some sense, given the 'jealousy' scenario I described above). However, I think the crown is even more ancient, and was perhaps given to him by Jergal (poising as Anubis?)
Where does it say that the god Myrkul was a prince of Murghôm?
Are you referring to that adventure in Dungeon magazine where there was a scrawled note about "Myrkul Bey al-Kursi" being a prince of Murghôm?
If so, I'm not sure I buy it, at least not without some additional corroborating evidence. The adventure didn't focus on the god Myrkul, and the thing about Murghôm and "Bey al-Kursi" could've been about some random guy with the same first name.
I mean, the idea of the god Myrkul as an ascended Cossack or Turk, it just doesn't fit for me. Granted, Bane Bhaal and Myrkul have been deities for a long time, but none of them seem to have a Mulhorandi-Murghôm feel.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Dec 2010 17:03:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 17:11:25
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Markus, some notes about Bhaal:
Beelzebub is already represented in D&D as Baalzebul, Lord of the 7th Hell (and in 1E also Lord of the 6th layer, described as technically inferior to Mephistopheles in hierarchy but "second [in power] only to Asmodeus"). Beelzebub/Baalzebul both share the same station, same title ("Lord of the Flies"), and same origins (regardless of whether you prefer 1E's simple Prince of Hell version or the retconned apocryphal fallen archon version).
1E also presents Bael, Duke of Hell (a vassal who serves Arch-devil Mammon, King of the 3rd Hell); Great Belial (Arch-devil and Ruler of the 4th Hell); Bel (in service of Arch-devil Dispater, Ruler of the 2nd Hell).
Ba'al (Baal) was a god worshipped in ancient Semetic religions (mainly by Levantine peoples such as the Canaanites and Phoenicians). The name was demonized by Christians and evolved into Bael, Baelzebub, Bel, and Belial. I think it's likely Ed devised Bhaal from scratch, though I don't know enough about Baal to say whether he was used as a model or inspiration.
Jergal seems very much like Nergal, Babylonian God of Death and the Underworld (presented in 1E as a lesser god). IIRC, Jergal didn't exist in D&D canon until written in Prince of Lies and Arcane Ages, so he was probably James Lowder's creation, not Ed's. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 17:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Where does it say that the god Myrkul was a prince of Murghôm?
Dungeon 170 - Monument of the Ancients:
"The necromancer was the most reserved of the three dark heroes, a gangling man of advancing years, speaking in a high whisper and largely keeping to himself. His emaciated form was shrouded within dark robes, the man’s cold eyes bespoke of malign intelligence and eldritch might. His given name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm." |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 17:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Where does it say that the god Myrkul was a prince of Murghôm?
Dungeon 170 - Monument of the Ancients:
"The necromancer was the most reserved of the three dark heroes, a gangling man of advancing years, speaking in a high whisper and largely keeping to himself. His emaciated form was shrouded within dark robes, the man’s cold eyes bespoke of malign intelligence and eldritch might. His given name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm."
Yeah, I know that particular reference. It's not enough to convince me that it's specifically talking about the god Myrkul. It needs some corroborating evidence from another source.
Scrawled notes that adventurers find are notorious for having mistaken conclusions or referring to other things. Who wrote this note? What's the context? I'm not buying it, at least not yet. It's too disconnected.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Dec 2010 17:25:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 17:28:38
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It seems fairly conclusive to me, not mere coincidence. Think about the context:
"My dearest Queen, have ye thought upon the name for our firstborn child, Royal Crown Prince and Noble Heir to the Kingdom of Britain?"
"Yes, good King, I have. I shall name him Satan." |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 18:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It seems fairly conclusive to me, not mere coincidence. Think about the context:
"My dearest Queen, have ye thought upon the name for our firstborn child, Royal Crown Prince and Noble Heir to the Kingdom of Britain?"
"Yes, good King, I have. I shall name him Satan."
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. 
Bearing in mind, I'm not opposed to the idea that the god Myrkul could be a former prince of Murghôm, it's just that the "reference" isn't a clear one. It's basically wall-scrawl, and there isn't anything else to support it. It could be someone with the same first name (Wulgreth vs Wulgreth, for example). Plus, Myrkul as someone from a Cossack-like culture is very hard to picture.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Dec 2010 18:42:39 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 19:04:13
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| Er ... when is this MotA reference dated, Dale Reckoning? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 19:17:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Er ... when is this MotA reference dated, Dale Reckoning?
MotA?  |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 19:42:42
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| Monuments of the Ancients, from Dungeon #170. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 20:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Er ... when is this MotA reference dated, Dale Reckoning?
Well, a couple things to keep in mind:
"Monument of the Ancients" is a 4E Dungeon magazine adventure, in issue 170 (Sept 2009). Being an DDI magazine adventure, and not a sourcebook, I'd argue that the canonicity is highly debatable. Novels and sourcebooks are one thing, but this is neither. It's a Dungeon magazine adventure. Is everything published in Dungeon automatically canon now?
In the adventure, the monument itself is an "ancient" step-pyramid in the Frozen Forest, around 300-350 miles southwest-ish of Zhentil Keep. I don't have access to the adventure currently, but from memory I think the idea was that the pyramid was supposed to be from a culture predating the Netherese.
Not too far away are the really old ruins of the "Abbey of the Moon" constructed by ancient Netherese worshippers of Selûne. Founded in -3847 DR, it was destroyed in -3326 DR.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 20:32:53
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Jergal was a Netherese god; Myrkul's ascension could not have occurred before the fall of Netheril.
lol, Dungeon and Dragon magazines are effectively published by TSR/WotC, so I'm personally inclined to accept them as canon. Though I acknowledge some people don't agree. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 20:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Er ... when is this MotA reference dated, Dale Reckoning?
Well, a couple things to keep in mind:
"Monument of the Ancients" is a 4E Dungeon magazine adventure, in issue 170 (Sept 2009). Being an DDI magazine adventure, and not a sourcebook, I'd argue that the canonicity is highly debatable. Novels and sourcebooks are one thing, but this is neither. It's a Dungeon magazine adventure. Is everything published in Dungeon automatically canon now?
In the adventure, the monument itself is an "ancient" step-pyramid in the Frozen Forest, around 300-350 miles southwest-ish of Zhentil Keep. I don't have access to the adventure currently, but from memory I think the idea was that the pyramid was supposed to be from a culture predating the Netherese.
Not too far away are the really old ruins of the "Abbey of the Moon" constructed by ancient Netherese worshippers of Selûne. Founded in -3847 DR, it was destroyed in -3326 DR.
I'd have to disagree with you about it not being Canon. Brian James IS a writer of Canon. His brother Matt is also in as much as his material relates to the Forgotten Realms...both being published, and one being the compiler of the Forgotten Realms Timeline that is now canon.
As to the location of the Pyramid...it is NORTH of Zhentil Keep; though the map is turned so that North would appear west.
Those things published on DDI must now be taken as Canon because that is where WotC has decided to place such materials instead of publishing books (aside from novels) about the Forgotten Realms.
So I'd give a firm nod to the Monument of the Ancients being absolutely Canon. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 20:46:35
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| The printed versions of the magazines were canon. I don't know of anything that says otherwise for the DDI versions. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 20:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Er ... when is this MotA reference dated, Dale Reckoning?
Well, a couple things to keep in mind:
"Monument of the Ancients" is a 4E Dungeon magazine adventure, in issue 170 (Sept 2009). Being an DDI magazine adventure, and not a sourcebook, I'd argue that the canonicity is highly debatable. Novels and sourcebooks are one thing, but this is neither. It's a Dungeon magazine adventure. Is everything published in Dungeon automatically canon now?
In the adventure, the monument itself is an "ancient" step-pyramid in the Frozen Forest, around 300-350 miles southwest-ish of Zhentil Keep. I don't have access to the adventure currently, but from memory I think the idea was that the pyramid was supposed to be from a culture predating the Netherese.
Not too far away are the really old ruins of the "Abbey of the Moon" constructed by ancient Netherese worshippers of Selûne. Founded in -3847 DR, it was destroyed in -3326 DR.
I'd have to disagree with you about it not being Canon. Brian James IS a writer of Canon. His brother Matt is also in as much as his material relates to the Forgotten Realms...both being published, and one being the compiler of the Forgotten Realms Timeline that is now canon.
As to the location of the Pyramid...it is NORTH of Zhentil Keep; though the map is turned so that North would appear west.
Those things published on DDI must now be taken as Canon because that is where WotC has decided to place such materials instead of publishing books (aside from novels) about the Forgotten Realms.
So I'd give a firm nod to the Monument of the Ancients being absolutely Canon.
Doesn't matter who wrote it, it's just an adventure and not a supplement. It's not like it's an information article in Dragon, which would be canon.
Are you suggesting that all Realms-flavored adventures in Dungeon are canon?
Additionally, there's quite a lot of supplemental "timeline" material written by one of the James brothers that definitely ISN'T canon. He had a bunch of dates and events that he would tweet/twitter to followers, and none of it was canon. It fit logically, but it was just his and not official canon.
Just because it's in DDI, or comes from certain authors, doesn't automatically mean that it's canon. Well, unless it's written by Ed Greenwood, then it's automatically canon unless something official conflicts with it.
PS: please don't take my comments as intending to disparage any author, it's not meant that way at all. I just don't see adventures as being canon... they're not like information articles, and usually have quite a lot of divergent or unusual stuff in them to make the adventure work.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Dec 2010 21:20:08 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 21:29:44
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Whether it's an adventure or article, if the work is from WotC, printed in a WotC product (which the online versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines most certainly are) and has "Forgotten Realms" stamped on it, it's canon unless or until WotC says that's not the case. To my knowledge, they haven't.
To say otherwise is like pretending half the books on one's shelf aren't canon.
Another way of looking at it: how does it follow something is not canon for the Realms when WotC went and told someone to "write something for the Realms"? I agree it doesn't depend on the author (although we can quite rightly point to the scholarly work of someone like Brian James with confidence that whatever they write will follow canon explicitly), but then we're forgetting the big giant fact of who commissioned, paid for and published the work in the first place.
Note that adventures in Dungeon aren't "Realms-flavored", they're Realms adventures. The former suggests the adventures are set in some quasi-neutral setting that's a little the Realms and a lot something else. However, the places, locations and NPCs in Dungeon Magazine are all canon.
edit: I don't want this to come off as an attack post and hope it will not be received as such. I also realize some folks look at certain forms of Realms media (like the computer games and adventures) as non canon, based on the relative quality of content.
Am enjoying reading this scroll from the shadows and will return there forthwith. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 26 Dec 2010 21:53:53 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 21:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Whether it's an adventure or article, if the work is from WotC, printed in a WotC product (which the online versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines most certainly are) and has "Forgotten Realms" stamped on it, it's canon unless or until WotC says that's not the case. To my knowledge, they haven't.
Sorry, I see a big difference between "official product" and "official canon." I've never viewed adventures as canon.
Information articles, yes. Supplements, yes. Adventures, no.
Even that triad of hardback adventures that included "Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave," that wasn't canon until a sourcebook later confirmed some of what was in it.
I'm not alone in seeing things this way, btw.
And I am completely right about the twittered timeline entries NOT being official canon.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Dec 2010 21:49:36 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 21:59:37
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<jumps in and out of the shadows like a mouse scavenging for food> quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Even that triad of hardback adventures that included "Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave," that wasn't canon until a sourcebook later confirmed some of what was in it.
Ahh, then by your standards the Cormyr adventure was canon, as it was part sourcebook. See the appendix on page 148. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 22:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
<jumps in and out of the shadows like a mouse scavenging for food> quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Even that triad of hardback adventures that included "Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave," that wasn't canon until a sourcebook later confirmed some of what was in it.
Ahh, then by your standards the Cormyr adventure was canon, as it was part sourcebook. See the appendix on page 148.
No, because lots of adventures have appendices with magic items and whatnot. In this case, I wouldn't consider it a sourcebook in the traditional sense. It was just an adventure.
And at the time, no I didn't consider it canon. The entries in GHotR, those just before the Spellplague, that's what cemented some of that adventure's main theme as canon.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 23:45:24
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EVERYTHING printed IN a TSR/WotC product/novel, or on their official website, IS CANON, regardless of anyone's personal opinions on the matter.
I can say there are a number of 1e/2e and even 3e products I'd love to just ignore... but I don't. At least, not when I am writing some of my conjecture here on this site. What I do at home is my own business.
The ONLY other source for 'canon' is ANYTHING Ed says, unless otherwise contradicted in an official, printed* source. His contract states that this is so.
* And these days, 'printed' means the web as well, so long as it is an official WotC site (and not just a designer/author's own site). THIS site is not an official site, and other then whatever Ed says, nothing else created here is canon (even if written by an official designer/author). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 00:07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Whether it's an adventure or article, if the work is from WotC, printed in a WotC product (which the online versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines most certainly are) and has "Forgotten Realms" stamped on it, it's canon unless or until WotC says that's not the case. To my knowledge, they haven't.
Pretty much.
Add to that, the fact that the Brothers' James and other designers often can and will refer to such works, is enough to suggest to me that these articles are both official and canon content.
Besides, Ed's "Eye on the Realms" series is published in DUNGEON too, and they're most definitely canon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 00:57:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Whether it's an adventure or article, if the work is from WotC, printed in a WotC product (which the online versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines most certainly are) and has "Forgotten Realms" stamped on it, it's canon unless or until WotC says that's not the case. To my knowledge, they haven't.
Pretty much.
Add to that, the fact that the Brothers' James and other designers often can and will refer to such works, is enough to suggest to me that these articles are both official and canon content.
Besides, Ed's "Eye on the Realms" series is published in DUNGEON too, and they're most definitely canon.
So, by this logic, the various computer games are also canon?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 01:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Whether it's an adventure or article, if the work is from WotC, printed in a WotC product (which the online versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines most certainly are) and has "Forgotten Realms" stamped on it, it's canon unless or until WotC says that's not the case. To my knowledge, they haven't.
Pretty much.
Add to that, the fact that the Brothers' James and other designers often can and will refer to such works, is enough to suggest to me that these articles are both official and canon content.
Besides, Ed's "Eye on the Realms" series is published in DUNGEON too, and they're most definitely canon.
So, by this logic, the various computer games are also canon?
The video games are often regarded on a case by case basis. The lore contained within them, usually, is canon. But the actual game-play itself, can't really be considered canon because each and every individual playing of the games, will produce a different experience.
Thus, it is the same with DUNGEON adventures. The content of the adventures themselves, are canon, while the game-play isn't. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 01:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Are you suggesting that all Realms-flavored adventures in Dungeon are canon?
I am absolutely saying that anything published by Wizards of the Coast in a particular setting is Canon material for that setting...yes, affirmative, and amen.
If you would prefer to think that only a novel or physically printed book is canon, that is your choice...however, with the coming of the digital age you may find that eventually you have no canon materials at all once everything is made available only digitally. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 01:22:33
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quote:
The video games are often regarded on a case by case basis. The lore contained within them, usually, is canon. But the actual game-play itself, can't really be considered canon because each and every individual playing of the games, will produce a different experience.
Thus, it is the same with DUNGEON adventures. The content of the adventures themselves, are canon, while the game-play isn't.
Sorry, I have to disagree, unless you're arguing that print/DDI adventures must be regarded on a case-by-case basis in the same fashion as the computer games.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 01:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Are you suggesting that all Realms-flavored adventures in Dungeon are canon?
I am absolutely saying that anything published by Wizards of the Coast in a particular setting is Canon material for that setting...yes, affirmative, and amen.
If you would prefer to think that only a novel or physically printed book is canon, that is your choice...however, with the coming of the digital age you may find that eventually you have no canon materials at all once everything is made available only digitally.
Hey, I fully support your decision to believe what you like best, even if I completely disagree with you.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 27 Dec 2010 01:26:41 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 02:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
The video games are often regarded on a case by case basis. The lore contained within them, usually, is canon. But the actual game-play itself, can't really be considered canon because each and every individual playing of the games, will produce a different experience.
Thus, it is the same with DUNGEON adventures. The content of the adventures themselves, are canon, while the game-play isn't.
Sorry, I have to disagree, unless you're arguing that print/DDI adventures must be regarded on a case-by-case basis in the same fashion as the computer games.
Errr... we've had both video game designers, and Ed himself say this is the case for the video games. You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the actual lore from both video games and DUNGEON articles are canon -- unless it's either specifically stated otherwise, or so obviously deviates from established canon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 03:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just out of interest: where is the lore connection between the Gur and the Netherese to be found?
-- George Krashos
Still looking for that.
That was badly worded - what I meant was that "it is canon that barbarians settled the seventon region, and eventually became the Netherease".
As of right now, I can canonically prove they are related to the Barbarians of the Ride and the Tunland Barbarians, and also to the Uthgardt and Rengardt (through inter-mixing, not as direct descendants as in the case of the other two Barbarian groups). They are also related to the humans of Hartsvale... although that one leaves me cold (pun intended). Troy Denning appears to have named Ed's Ice-hunters 'Trael', but that seems to be be a giant-specific term for the primitive peoples living on the Glacier (which is a helluva lot easier to say then those atrocious names in The Great Glacier). Either way, the Trael do not appear to be of the same ethnic group as the civilized humans of Hartsvale, so the Netherease are a possibility, although its a bit anachronistic.
And I am still searching for that reference - someone pointed me to it a LONG time ago, and I will find it... somewhere.
Do you have issue with them having come from the east? Physically they appear to resemble the slavic-like peoples of the Unapproachable East more then any other known racial group active at that time. The whole 'Shades thing' seems very 'Vlad Tepes' to me as well (just the vibe I get, is all). Also, the other two known branches of the early Nethease/Seventon peoples are HORSE barbarians, which fits with the Nar. The people of the North were NOT mounted back then, and the Dathites hadn't settled the Eastern Heartlands at that time. We also know that around that time the Haltai (proto-Tuigan indeginous K-T peoples) were migrating into the Taan, which would have displaced any Raumvari living there. Its just a natural progression of events based on canon (as of right now).
I will find that reference, which actually still proves nothing, since they could have been completely separate peoples who happen to coincidentally share a similar name. Just like the Mir, who live no-where near The Mir (although I have my homebrew theories there, as well). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul and the bargain with Jergal
