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dfemling
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 19:05:56
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Lords and ladies of the realms, i have loved the realms for 20 years now. I have played campaigns in 6 diffrent countries and have loved the rich and vibrant feel of the realms enjoyed the persional touch and care that i have seen alot of you fans/writers have put into the game.
I kept an open mind coming in to this major change, and now after reading through the campaign book i have found few positive and lots a negeative aspects in the new setting. I want to stay away from ranting and raving but i am so confused about these changes.
As a whole i find that D&D 4th edition feels like it's own system and nothing like D&D of past events. And now there are so many changes to the campaign, lost story lines that the Authors have set through out the expansions, and we the players have waited for word or product release to further these seeds into gaming oppurtunities.
Bottom line, the realms have lost it's magical feeling. I now see it as a product used to further a companies new product launch, not the loved and cherished creation that has been developed through the years.
I hope that i have not come of to bitter, and i just would like to see some fresh perspective to these new realms. I need help finding the magical feeling that should be the realms trademark!
Thank you for your time(and sorry for spelling errors, i am a soldier that has not the refined sense of spell check )
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 19:43:41
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The value, to me, is that no matter what WotC may choose to publish now and in the future, they can't eradicate what has come before.
The magical products of the 1e, 2e and 3.x Realms still exist and will, hopefully, be ever easier to acquire thanks to the miraculous technology of PDF, Inter-series-of-tubes and other such wonders. And then there is Candlekeep.com.
Should you choose (and rest ye assured, fellow scribes, I do so choose) to continue playing in the Realms that were, the material still exists and the support of the good scholars of Candlekeep is worth several sourcebooks on its own.
Fret no o'ermuch if coingrubbers and hoardwyrms publish glossy scrolls of little wisdome or value and call it the Forgotten Realms. We'll know better.  |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 20:25:59
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Well said!
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The value, to me, is that no matter what WotC may choose to publish now and in the future, they can't eradicate what has come before.
The magical products of the 1e, 2e and 3.x Realms still exist and will, hopefully, be ever easier to acquire thanks to the miraculous technology of PDF, Inter-series-of-tubes and other such wonders. And then there is Candlekeep.com.
Should you choose (and rest ye assured, fellow scribes, I do so choose) to continue playing in the Realms that were, the material still exists and the support of the good scholars of Candlekeep is worth several sourcebooks on its own.
Fret no o'ermuch if coingrubbers and hoardwyrms publish glossy scrolls of little wisdome or value and call it the Forgotten Realms. We'll know better.
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 00:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
I hope that i have not come of to bitter, and i just would like to see some fresh perspective to these new realms. I need help finding the magical feeling that should be the realms trademark!
Just use the old Realms--the version you like. Why stop using it if it feels magical to you? You might grow to like the new Realms, but I see no reason to force yourself to like it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Aug 2008 00:35:04 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 00:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Fret no o'ermuch if coingrubbers and hoardwyrms publish glossy scrolls of little wisdome or value and call it the Forgotten Realms. We'll know better.
Hee, that was cute. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 00:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
I kept an open mind coming in to this major change, and now after reading through the campaign book i have found few positive and lots a negeative aspects in the new setting. I want to stay away from ranting and raving but i am so confused about these changes.
Well, you've purchased the book, and admit there are some positive things about the 4e Realms. So why not simply use what you found positive about the post Spellplague Realms, and build your current campaign, using pre-4e Realmslore, toward that? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Aug 2008 00:49:00 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The value, to me, is that no matter what WotC may choose to publish now and in the future, they can't eradicate what has come before.
The magical products of the 1e, 2e and 3.x Realms still exist and will, hopefully, be ever easier to acquire thanks to the miraculous technology of PDF, Inter-series-of-tubes and other such wonders. And then there is Candlekeep.com.
Should you choose (and rest ye assured, fellow scribes, I do so choose) to continue playing in the Realms that were, the material still exists and the support of the good scholars of Candlekeep is worth several sourcebooks on its own.
Fret no o'ermuch if coingrubbers and hoardwyrms publish glossy scrolls of little wisdome or value and call it the Forgotten Realms. We'll know better.
Exactly right on. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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FlimFlam69
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
As a whole i find that D&D 4th edition feels like it's own system and nothing like D&D of past events.
Did you like the 3E version of D&D? Because 3E is MUCH farther removed as a system from 2E and 1E than 4E is. 4E is closer to 3E than 3E to 1e/2e.
quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
And now there are so many changes to the campaign, lost story lines that the Authors have set through out the expansions, and we the players have waited for word or product release to further these seeds into gaming oppurtunities.
Any specific examples you can give us? |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by FlimFlam69
Did you like the 3E version of D&D? Because 3E is MUCH farther removed as a system from 2E and 1E than 4E is. 4E is closer to 3E than 3E to 1e/2e.
This is actually kind of related to my experience of the Realms in various editions. I never played 3E, and as I've said, I've "been away." But I've picked up quite a bit of the 3E Realms stuff, and 4E Realms seems a lot more like AD&D and early 2E Realms to me than all of this stuff from the early 2000s (which I do dig, but not in the same way I dug the gray box and dig 4E).
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by FlimFlam69
quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
As a whole i find that D&D 4th edition feels like it's own system and nothing like D&D of past events.
Did you like the 3E version of D&D? Because 3E is MUCH farther removed as a system from 2E and 1E than 4E is. 4E is closer to 3E than 3E to 1e/2e.
quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
And now there are so many changes to the campaign, lost story lines that the Authors have set through out the expansions, and we the players have waited for word or product release to further these seeds into gaming oppurtunities.
Any specific examples you can give us?
Not to knock anyone here, but I see a post like this, from an account with no personal information and only 3 posts as a possible troll looking to start arguments.
In order to take you more seriously, could you expand on how 3rd edition is further from the previous editions than 4th is? The biggest change in 3rd edition, IMO, was to make multiclassing easier and set everyone on the same leveling scale. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dfemling
I kept an open mind coming in to this major change, and now after reading through the campaign book i have found few positive and lots a negeative aspects in the new setting. I want to stay away from ranting and raving but i am so confused about these changes.
Well, you've purchased the book, and admit there are some positive things about the 4e Realms. So why not simply use what you found positive about the post Spellplague Realms, and build your current campaign, using pre-4e Realmslore, toward that?
I said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here anyway -
It's MUCH easier to just take the few good things you like in 4e FR and paste them into the original Realms, then the other way around. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:41:33
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| I do not think that this means that you should buy the book and by doing so "vote" for the new Realms if you do not like it. If I had bought it and didn't like it, I would seriously consider returning it (if you can) since returns usually show up on sales reports, and if enough people who are dissatisfied with the product return it then that too would send a message to WotC that it was a sub-par product (which I have deduced from my poll (quibble all you want about the accuracy of internet polls, I do not feel like debating it). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 19:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here anyway -
It's MUCH easier to just take the few good things you like in 4e FR and paste them into the original Realms, then the other way around.
Agreed. I've been able to look through the new FRCG (no, I did not buy it) and I can honestly say I dislike most of it. The stuff I like I would either put into the "unknown lands" or a totally different setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 31 Aug 2008 19:07:16 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I do not think that this means that you should buy the book and by doing so "vote" for the new Realms if you do not like it. If I had bought it and didn't like it, I would seriously consider returning it (if you can) since returns usually show up on sales reports, and if enough people who are dissatisfied with the product return it then that too would send a message to WotC that it was a sub-par product (which I have deduced from my poll (quibble all you want about the accuracy of internet polls, I do not feel like debating it).
yeah, your poll of an internet site, consisting of mostly long term devoted fans of the forgotten realms setting. The demographics are off my friend I do agree that your poll, as great as it is, does show that long term, devoted FR fans do not like what they see so far. However, the "polling" is based upon internet rumors with a sprinkling of truths, from what I can see. In looking over the posts, many do not appear to address whether a person has read or purchased the book.
But I do not want to quibble either  |
Edited by - scererar on 31 Aug 2008 23:56:47 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 23:08:11
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One can agree with a majority of the changes brought to the Realms with 4E (like me), but it doesn't mean that the FRCG has the quality of its 3.x counterpart (specialy the map) or that it captures well the "FR feel".
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 23:11:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
One can agree with a majority of the changes brought to the Realms with 4E (like me), but it doesn't mean that the FRCG has the quality of its 3.x counterpart (specialy the map) or that it captures well the "FR feel".
Absolutely. If I was forced to choose between the FRCS or the FRCG, I would choose the FRCS everytime, as I feel that it is a superior product overall. However, I also like many of the changes to the realms in 4E. Not all of them, but enough for me personally, to check it out some more. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 23:54:47
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My own enthusiasm is based on the fact that I've just come (back) to the game, and this is what there is. I think it's a quality product, and I'm explicitly not basing that on comparison to what's come immediately before.
Though, as I've written elsewhere, it does in fact evoke fond memories and favorable comparisons to what I got out of the gray box when it came out when I was in high school.
As somebody who knows very little about third edition D&D and the third edition Realms (beyond the occasional novel), I'm seeing a lot of value in these Realms.
Let the namecalling begin!
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 00:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
My own enthusiasm is based on the fact that I've just come (back) to the game, and this is what there is. I think it's a quality product, and I'm explicitly not basing that on comparison to what's come immediately before.
Though, as I've written elsewhere, it does in fact evoke fond memories and favorable comparisons to what I got out of the gray box when it came out when I was in high school.
As somebody who knows very little about third edition D&D and the third edition Realms (beyond the occasional novel), I'm seeing a lot of value in these Realms.
Let the namecalling begin!
I will not call you names, but I will say you missed a hell of a good product in the years you were away. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
My own enthusiasm is based on the fact that I've just come (back) to the game, and this is what there is. I think it's a quality product, and I'm explicitly not basing that on comparison to what's come immediately before.
Though, as I've written elsewhere, it does in fact evoke fond memories and favorable comparisons to what I got out of the gray box when it came out when I was in high school.
As somebody who knows very little about third edition D&D and the third edition Realms (beyond the occasional novel), I'm seeing a lot of value in these Realms.
Let the namecalling begin!
Oh, no namecalling from me. But the 3e Realms are by-and-large utterly phenomenal. That's the reason why so many of us can't stand the 4e product: for us 3e folks, the 4e product is, comparatively speaking, a massive drop in quality. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 02:53:14
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I've said before that I likely would have liked the Shattered Realms as a new setting. If it was something that I was coming into with no prior knowledge or expectations, I would have been quite enthusiastic about it.
But since it is not a new setting, I can not help but to compare it to what has come before. And it is simply too radically changed to compare favorably, in my mind. I could have dealt with some of the changes, but there are simply too many for me, and many of them don't make any sense. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 03:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've said before that I likely would have liked the Shattered Realms as a new setting. If it was something that I was coming into with no prior knowledge or expectations, I would have been quite enthusiastic about it.
I'd actually be curious to see actual numbers with respect to just how many of the disgruntled Realms fans would approach the conceptual base of the 4e Realms if it were presented as an alternate setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 03:17:41
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| As an entirely new setting, not connected to the Realms of previous editions at all? I would probably have looked into it and appreciated it more from a story/setting perspective. I'm pretty sour on 4th Edition as a whole, so I don't think I would buy it, but it would definitely be seen with less cynicism on my part, for sure. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 03:41:56
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My advice to the OP would be to stick to what you know.
For my 4E group, it’s Cormyr. Cormyr is a place we’ve adventured in quite a bit before and enjoy a lot.
But other places such as the Dalelands, Waterdeep or even Myth Drannor and Luruar all can serve as well.
There are only so many places you can go to in a typical campaign’s lifetime. If you stick to the places you enjoy setting your campaign in, I think you will find the flavor is 9/10 there already.
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
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Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
As an entirely new setting, not connected to the Realms of previous editions at all?
Pretty much. A setting you'd heard something about on the internet and saw for the first time on the shelf of your local gaming store. "This looks interesting," you think to yourself. "I've never heard of this world before. It must be new," you conclude.
quote:
I'm pretty sour on 4th Edition as a whole, so I don't think I would buy it, but it would definitely be seen with less cynicism on my part, for sure.
What if it had come from another publisher, using an alternate rules-set? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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dfemling
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 05:47:02
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Good day lords and ladies, First thank you for your replys. I have seen AD&D and 3-3.5ED realms play, and have developed many NPC's for friends and fellow DM's over the years.I have a love of the deep setting the realms has offered over the years. I have spent tons of time drawing out the Zhent and the Arcane brotherhood among others, useing written lore and streamling them so as to make them a players nightmare. I find that things start to change big with 1371 in the timeline. I lived and changed with 3.5 and worked hard to keep my creations alive for my players. I cannot find, evan on further looks into 4Ed to a chance of a fit for these creations. I see small types of realms lore published in AD&D and 3.5 enough to feed my creativity for years to come. Have no fears, no love is lost on Ed's dream, and no loyalty will change:) I am a Realms fan, lore geek to the day i die:) And very proud!
I love the commitment that Ed and the authors/developers have put into the realms and it breaks my heart not to like it and not to continue to support them with my resources. That is the main reason for my first post, i do not like this new setting, but have never turned my back from somthing that i love. I understand what these authors give up to share there dreams, i can think of no better writers than those who have responded to our post over the years and one better Ed has taken his dreams and has allowed so many people to walk into them and make changes and to create stories.
Some might say that I have a passion for the realms, you see i have served my country for 8 years, and through this service and service in four countries these realms have kept long cold/wet/warm nights at bay. I and many others have used these games to spend hours writeing our own stories and playing out our dramas. I do not put loyalty aside lightly, and if there are changes to be made to the realms for the better than i want to support them in these difficult, darker times. I hope i have not layered it on to thick, and good day gentle lords/ladies |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1155 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 10:09:32
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I've disconnected myself from seeing any resemblance between 4E Realms and 3E Realms and would treat them as seperate campaign settings from this point on.
It helps me to see the positive things in the new and old Realms and let bygones be bygones.
My 3E Realms would never advance beyond 1385 DR as I've decided to make all my campaigns run and end before then.
My 4E Realms would never have any memories before 1479 DR except for the Spellplague.
Now I'm at peace. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 10:51:59
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| I would be less critical it the 4e Realms would have been introduced as a complete new setting. The cosmology, for example, is very interesting, in my opinion. The problems arise with this setting being the (non)continuation of the FR. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
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"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 13:02:14
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| I wish instead of mucking with FR WotC asked Ed to give them a new setting for 4E. That's what they really want, anyways. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 14:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
I wish instead of mucking with FR WotC asked Ed to give them a new setting for 4E. That's what they really want, anyways.
But with the FR name for marketing purposes. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 14:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
I wish instead of mucking with FR WotC asked Ed to give them a new setting for 4E. That's what they really want, anyways.
Well, there's always CASTLEMOURN. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 15:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
My own enthusiasm is based on the fact that I've just come (back) to the game, and this is what there is. I think it's a quality product, and I'm explicitly not basing that on comparison to what's come immediately before.
As I have some experience with the layouting of books I think it is not really that easy to call any 4e material "quality product". It depends a lot on your expectations and the new editions are written for the people who dont have much time. Short paragraphs, nice little colorful boxes for skills and powers and definetely not a lot of text to memorize (from the campaign material). This is fine for people who dont have much time due to their work schedules or who want to fight battles, battles and some more battles. It does not work well with people who want to understand how things are related, how the things work and why something has happened as it is described in the timeline. Personally I think that even though the designers said: quote:
4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
this is more or less irrelevant due to the timejump, but more or less due to the fact that everything has to be adjusted to 4e stats and isnt the same it was before. History doesnt matter because it is changed into something new and the destruction of the spellplague and its cataclysms pretty much ensure hardly any culture is like it was before. Personally I think this was a strategically bad decision. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Realms fan trying to see some value in new realms?
