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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 17:49:51
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Poll Question:
Please only answer this if you have read and/or purchased the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
How satisfied are you with the final product of the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?
P.S. Once again, as the poll creator, I will not participate in this poll.
--Hawkins
Mod Edit: Please note, interested scribes can still participate in this Poll even though the scroll itself is currently sealed.
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| Results: |
| Very Dissatisfied |
 [50%] |
48 votes |
| Dissatisfied |
[17%] |
16 votes |
| Somewhat Dissatisfied |
[10%] |
10 votes |
| Neither Satisfied or Dissatisfied |
[3%] |
3 votes |
| Somewhat Satisfied |
[8%] |
8 votes |
| Satisfied |
[5%] |
5 votes |
| Very Satisfied |
[6%] |
6 votes |
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Poll Status:
Open »» |
Total Votes: 96 counted »» |
Last Vote:
16 Dec 2013 21:40:30 |
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Edited by - The Sage on 01 Sep 2008 17:08:32
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 20:28:48
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| Middle ground so far. The good and the bad balance out somewhat (my opinion may change once I finish reading it all though.) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 22:11:50
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| It's ok...and somewhat usable for earlier campaigns. |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 01:54:52
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Highly dissatisfied. I'd like to go into why, but I want to type it out as non-insulting, non-flaming, and unbiased as possible...as possible as a deep-hearted Realms fan and 4E-Hater can possibly get.  Nah, I'll be good. But I'll give a quick overview.
For it's price and for what the Realms stood for...I think it's just utter crap. You get 1/4 the information the original 3E Campaign Book (and even 2E/1E ones) gave you for almost the same price. I don't like 4E, I don't believe it's "D&D" (it is a definitely fun hack&slash system, but D&D I believe it is not), and I don't believe the 4E rules fit at all with anything the Realms had set in canon. 4E Realms isn't even the Realms to me anymore. It's like going back to your old neighborhood and seeing everything gone, replaced by a new (and most of the time, crappier) generation or neighborhood. A lot different than, say, going back to your old neighborhood and though some things changed and others have changed drastically (but all for the better), it still feels like home. I am sure that was the feeling most got with 3E Realms. I know I did.
Monte Cook summed it up best about 4E (and what he said can go for the Realms) in the latest Kobold Quarterly issue #6 by Wolfgang Baur in his interview. If you guys don't have that, I'll be glad to copy and paste the relevant text he stated.
The only fun part about it was a few gems and tidbits that shine some new light on the Realms past. However, I truly believe a lot of it was simply crammed it at the last minute in order to get the Realms to fit the 4E cosmology...like the Abeir cramming crap. |
Edited by - Razz on 21 Aug 2008 01:56:54 |
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medevial
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 02:26:05
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I'm not a Candlekeep regular, but this refuge has answered a number of questions I have for the Realms. I hope that Candlekeep is a beacon for the true spirit of the Realms.
The 4th edition book is utter tripe. Elminster is a husk of his former self and exists in obscurity in this abomination. The book as Raz said is weak on content and is happy to hawk products already published or in publication by WOTC. This book is by no means a definitive guide and serves to prop up a watered down version of the game I love.
I will continue to pretend events laid out to create this ugly new world never happen in my game at home and hope that Candlekeep will still be here to assist in that endeavor. Ed, please continue to guide us through this dark time in the real history of the Realms as it battles the forces of big business and weak minded World of Warcraft gaming. If the description of Elimster is correct you seem as unhappy as many of the pollsters at the time of this post.
May the Gods have mercy on the Realms and allow us to awake from the nightmare that is 4th edition Forgotten Realms. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 06:03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
A lot different than, say, going back to your old neighborhood and though some things changed and others have changed drastically (but all for the better), it still feels like home. I am sure that was the feeling most got with 3E Realms. I know I did.
Monte Cook summed it up best about 4E (and what he said can go for the Realms) in the latest Kobold Quarterly issue #6 by Wolfgang Baur in his interview. If you guys don't have that, I'll be glad to copy and paste the relevant text he stated.
Nope. for me personally 3ed. felt just as these changes does to most Realmsfans. Hence my relative calmness concerning 4ed, I am already to disillusioned to care.
But you made me curious. What did Monte Cook say about 4ed? |
Edited by - Jorkens on 21 Aug 2008 06:03:27 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 06:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Monte Cook summed it up best about 4E (and what he said can go for the Realms) in the latest Kobold Quarterly issue #6 by Wolfgang Baur in his interview. If you guys don't have that, I'll be glad to copy and paste the relevant text he stated.
Please go ahead. What did Monte Cook say? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Tormtar
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 08:38:26
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To me the 4ed is just a very poor source. It is, in places, contrived and seems rushed simply to fit in with commercial concerns of the parent company; the Loudwater section, for example, seems tacked on, uneccessary, and is very poor. There ae a few interesting ideas but they are few and far between and I feel that there is absolutely no respect shown towards the Realms (or its long-time fans for that matter).
Also agree with earlier posts that there is a considerable shortage of material in here when compared to earlier editions. Nope, for me, these events never happened and never will. This is where I part company with the Realms (at least the current canon version) and I can only hope that the Realms will return at some point in the future in a more cared for and true (to Ed's vision) form. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 11:36:58
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| Dissatisfied, I'm not very dissatisfied cause I like a few changes, e.g. increased Shou presence |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 11:58:26
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| Since I dont bother with 4e material and have only a limited information on the 4e FRCG from the excerpts I can say that its a joke, but totally in style for 4e. Changes were made to make changes and not because they made sense - or more importantly: are explained well enough to feel "necessary". The little excerpts on the new Realms usually read as introductions into a module instead of describing a society and the reasons why it is like it is. Due to my limited knowledge and my disliking of 4e rules all of this is obviously highly subjective. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 12:30:41
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I got this book for two reasons:
1) Because I had already ordered it for my FLGS & I couldnt bring myself to cancel it (the owner is a friend & needs the business).
2) Because Ed asked us to give it a chance.
If not for those reasons, I wouldnt have touched it with a standard 10' pole! I've seen amateurish garbage that was better than this!   
The only good bits are those done by Ed himself - I'm just glad there is still some 1E/2E stuff I haven't yet got. |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Asche
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:07:49
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Somewhat dissatisfied.
Primarily because its just a poor product in terms of content. Layout, Artwork, the Map and some stuff is actually very good, but the descriptive text itself is just plain poor in comparison to the 3ed one.
Many passages are word-for-word exact copies from the same entry in the 3ed, the large print and spacing are like a poor 5th graders attempt to cover up he hasnt actually written as many pages as he was asked to, and now stretches them through bad layout.
There really are just 2 explanations for this sorry state of the FRCG:
Either the people making it, writing it, doing the layout are truly extremely bad at their profession and/or underpaid freelancers with virtually no talent at all, or someone from the top of the corporate food chain gave an utterly unrealistic deadline and told them to just cut out as much as they need to cut in order to make it.
No designer worth a single page in any module would get caught dead with the entry about the Dalelands for example, where one third is a precise copy/paste job from the old, much superior FRCS.
I honestly hope sales are crappy and the entire setting in 4ed bombs. This reminds me of the tragedy that goes on in the MMORPG Genre of Computer Games right now, where each successive game is worse than the one before, because any sort of art or design gets smothered in demands to make it cheaper, easier and leaner.
And people are still sounding surprised when one after the other bombs. |
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Seainna Mistwalker
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 19:12:38
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IMO its the Forgotten Realms "shoe horned" into the 4th Edition of D&d. Even WoTC stated in times prior to its release that the Realms as they were wouldn't fit the design of 4th edition, thus that is one reason why changes had to be made. They also stated that the world was too massive in history, characters and content to work for the crowd that WoTC was shooting for come 4e. Taking these two statements made by WoTC, and even pretending that at the same time it would remain true to the source material or that source materials long time fans and/or supporters...is false...as each contradicts one another. Its a weak excuse for making changes in hopes of keeping the existing Realms fans on board come the FR 4th edition launch, because the honest answer would have resulted in even more pre-4e Realms complaints than we've seen to date...and a lot fewer customer purchases come release of the FR 4e core-book. Because the honest answer would have flat out said to us (... the long time Realms fans), that we were being disregarded in hopes of drawing in a new crowd. The Realms that we love is a world where and when the setting and its inhabitants come first, not one where & when creativity is stifled and the world lobotomized in order for : Forgotten Realms, the Monopoly Edition to be released.
I purchased the 4e core-book because WoTC wouldn't give us the straight forward and honest answer, and that left room for "hope"...despite what my instincts told me. As the saying goes : Fool me once, Shame on you .....
Lets just say that I myself wont be making it to step two of this old Chinese proverb via another 4e Realms purchase.
Edit: Please note I'm not saying that I hate WoTC/Hasbro, as I'm a long time fan of MTG and the world that has been developed as a background for the game. What I do hate, is the Forgotten Realms in WoTC/Hasbo's hands presently.... |
Edited by - Seainna Mistwalker on 22 Aug 2008 20:21:25 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 19:35:04
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| Once again, I would like to encourage scribes to check out the 4e FRCG before buying it to make sure that it is something that they will like. That way you can both make sure that you did not waste your money and that you are not voting blindly with your wallet for the new version of the Realms. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 04:29:06
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It's a good starter book, which is all it's supposed to be.
I wonder how many of us that posted an opinion actaully own the book and have read it cover to cover? |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 04:36:08
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Unfortunately, I haven't found a copy in the bookstore yet to read all of it in its entirety. So, I'm keeping my opinions to the ruleset and the specific items I do know at this time.
But I'm not having high hopes at this point. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:14:26
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Even if I'm a known pro-4E, after a first read of the FRCG I can say I'm dissatisfied with it.
Loudwater chapter and Returned Abeir section took way too many pages (don't make me talk about the map of Loudwater!).
Cosmology is too thin, espcially with all the changes made.
I like most of the changes (Five companies is cool), but some are really strange (Eltuguard, new Zentharim, draining the sea...)
Of course the quality of the map is awful, even RB seems ashamed of it.
I still don't know if I'll run a 4E Realms campaign (I'm running a 4E campaign in the default "world of D&D"), but if I do, I may not include all changes and add some of my own. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Aug 2008 20:14:42 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:29:54
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That's another thing... The draining of the sea.
Now, I know that it's a land of magic and stuff, but really? At some point, the sea is empty and the water turns into a river that flows over the edge. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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TwigB
Acolyte
South Africa
46 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 00:02:00
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So I'm borrowing a copy the moment...I've only got a week before I have to return it, so I'm trying to race through the book asap. And, yes, I'm loving it. The content that they've included is amazing! This isn't my final report, its currently a preliminary data gathering session. Like the concept of gods versus primordials, love the new Thay (always wanted an Undead wasteland) the list goes on and on. I'm most definitely going to buy the book and already my mind is racing with ideas. All the changes seem fitting and for me personally, nothing feels forced into place. The changes where inevitable but I think they were handled quite nicely.
There are of course plenty of things missing (I'm used to having nearly every FR 3rd ed product, so a need for more information is expected). I'm sure that as more products get released the more they'll flesh out the new world. I'm pretty sure the new FR players guide will discuss FR specific classes/paragon paths in more detail as well as all the respective races. The only question I have is where Eladrin will fit in, every mention of them seems to indicate that they've been here all along. I thought they'd be introduced along with the Feywild so I'm guessing they're probably just the new term for Sun Elves |
Edited by - TwigB on 23 Aug 2008 00:03:37 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 00:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TwigB
I'm sure that as more products get released the more they'll flesh out the new world.
Only if by "more products" you mean the FRPG and the odd online Dungeon or Dragon article, then you are correct. Otherwise, they have explicitly stated that the only two FR books there will be is the FRCG and FRPG (RB was asked about this on version 3 of the "Ask the FR Authors and Designers" and confirmed it). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 00:44:26
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As it was also confirmed at gencon. They have no plans, at this time, to publish any more printed sourcebooks beyond the three. It'll either be online or in novels.
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by TwigB
I'm sure that as more products get released the more they'll flesh out the new world.
Only if by "more products" you mean the FRPG and the odd online Dungeon or Dragon article, then you are correct. Otherwise, they have explicitly stated that the only two FR books there will be is the FRCG and FRPG (RB was asked about this on version 3 of the "Ask the FR Authors and Designers" and confirmed it).
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 04:21:54
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-I like the 4E realms. They could have done it better but the didn't. Some of what is in the book is really neat. I like the Gods vs the Primordials angle. I like Shade kicking the poo-poo out of the Zhents and the Thornbacks. Shade and Evereska, Cormyr, and Myth Drannor have a nice little strategic stalemate going on and I see the Dales being a coldwar battle ground between them.
-Talos and Gruumsh are still seperate Gods. Talos is trying to Kill Gruumsh for trying to get him after the spellplague hit in my games. 
-In my game Mask is imprisoned with Cyric. Yes Mask is my favorite FR God. Cyric using Mask as Godsbane to Kill Mystra is priceless to me. In my game that is!  Cale and Riven and somebody else(I dont want to spoil it. Read Paul Kemp's short story in Realms of War to figure it out!) are looking for him. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 04:39:03
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Just grabbed a copy of the FRCG. only had chance for a brief preview so far.
I like the ten important facts in the introduction. Additionally I looked up the Elminster information. Nothing I read indicated "Insane". It does however state in part... He is much diminished, though he retains his immortality and considerable arcane power. The Old Sage is no less intelligent, experienced, and quick-witted than before. |
Edited by - scererar on 24 Aug 2008 04:47:27 |
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danbuter
Seeker
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 04:52:48
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| I read through a chunk of it, but ended up not buying it. Some of the stuff is ok, but overall I'm disappointed. There is a LOT of whitespace in this book. Compared to the 3e book, it just isn't even close. |
Nothing beats the gray box!
Dan |
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Seainna Mistwalker
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 08:07:39
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| I dont *mean* to come across as embittered, its just for me....you can only remove so much of what was the Realms, before it doesnt feel like the Realms to(/for) me. And if you look over that 4e FRCS, you'll notice much of what was...is no longer. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 05:06:03
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Someone already compared it to the 3e FRCS, which it pales next to. It is a good introductory book for someone unfamiliar with the Realms, however the price tag will keep most novices away. I have it because I'm a Forgotten Realms junkie. In any other circumstance I would have skipped it. Not terrible for what I think they intended it for, however it is not for most of the audience here at Candlekeep other than to view the changes made. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 02:19:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I like most of the changes (Five companies is cool), but some are really strange (Eltuguard, new Zentharim, draining the sea...)
Just out of curiosity, why do you find Elturgard strange? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 02:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Just out of curiosity, why do you find Elturgard strange?
I don't understand why it's not an Amaunator theocracy, there is a "second sun" over Elturel damn it!
Also, Elturel as an exception to the "Wild west" feel of the Western Hearthlands was doing fine IMHO.
Finally, I think that "self-righteous paladins" make very bad villains in D&D.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 02:36:30 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 03:06:42
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Well, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
With regards to the "second sun"? The Amaunator plot took place in Elversult, not Elturel. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 03:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
With regards to the "second sun"? The Amaunator plot took place in Elversult, not Elturel.
You're right, but p.124 seems to have retconned(?) it to Elturel. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 03:45:21
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| Not retconned. Amaunator's sun was "moved". Why or when is not clear. Bruce wouldn't say. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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How do you feel about the 4e FRCG?
Topic Locked
