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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 16:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
As I have some experience with the layouting of books I think it is not really that easy to call any 4e material "quality product".
Hey, me too! On book and page layout I mean. I started out as a "stripper" (settle down! that's not what it means!), laying out pages with film, a razor blade, and tape. Then I worked through the beginning of the digital revolution and direct-to-plate technology and was a fully reeducated member of the Adobe Army before I jumped into bookselling, publishing, and finally, "content production" in the form of writing.
I think the 4E books are quality product. Easy peasy!
quote:
More from Pandora
It depends a lot on your expectations and the new editions are written for the people who dont have much time. Short paragraphs, nice little colorful boxes for skills and powers and definetely not a lot of text to memorize (from the campaign material). This is fine for people who dont have much time due to their work schedules or who want to fight battles, battles and some more battles. It does not work well with people who want to understand how things are related, how the things work and why something has happened as it is described in the timeline.
That's a fair description of the physical product and what I sense to be the layout design philosophy (as opposed to the game mechanics design philosphy). As it happens, I've never tried to memorize anything in any RPG book, but I suppose it's also fair for you suggest that the 4E books aren't designed with that in mind--I really haven't looked at them in that light.
Now, as it happens, I'm lucky enough to be a freelancer who works, plays, households, bicycles and pet-owns pretty much on his own schedule. My work is full time, but I don't kid myself that I don't have more free time than a lot of people. Also, as a game master, I'm less hackity schmackity and more "Your miniature's not wearing the brocaded hat I made for it from 17th century Italian velvet! Didn't we agree on page eleven of the 'clothing tastes' appendix of your character background that she'd never be without it?"
So, my experience of the setting and the rules set doesn't match up with yours, because I'm a "people who want to understand how things are related, how the things work and why something has happened as it is described in the timeline." I am! I am people!
And, as has been said by myself and others, I think the book I bought has as much on offer in those departments as the gray box that got me started in the Realms. YummyVee, as the kid say.
Cheers,
Christopher
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 16:38:12
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Don't confuse quantity with quality. The 'Old Grey Box' had personality - something the new offerings severly lack. I'd take 1 page of material written in the 'Ed style', then 20 that sound like some dreary text book.
Also, the book tries to encompass a MUCH larger geographic region then the original boxed set, and without the focus of the original, you wind up with a barely adequate overview of everything.
Its probably less-useful then the GHotR for running adventures, and thats says a lot, since the GHotR wasn't really a gaming product.
It is the equivalent of trying to run a an RPG in Medieval Europe after reading a 10th grade text book. The information is there, but all the 'fun' has been sucked right out of it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 17:14:16
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We're having a blast with it, so in my experience it's more than possible to have fun with it. Both "as written" for those of my players who've never gamed in the Realms before (or at all) and with the varying levels of knowledge of all the other great stuff that's come before that some of the rest of us possess.
We did civics in tenth grade for the social studies block at my high school. I would have failed all of my other classes if we'd had even a crappy book on Medieval Europe as an actual text book. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 17:26:52
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Might have been 11th grade, then - We might have done Afro-Asian culture studies in 10th.
But you got my point. 
I still have that European History textbook somewhere... I think I was the only kid who enjoyed it. 
Which comes full-circle as to why I have the FRCG - everything has its use, even if it is rather dry. 
There are quite a few 'springboards' in there that warrant further developent and inclusion in my Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 19:26:11
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| I find the new Realms product to be a fairly good heating product, so that's got some value at least. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 19:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I find the new Realms product to be a fairly good heating product, so that's got some value at least.
Funny! Love that book burning humor! Here's a good one from noted wiseguy Ray Bradbury:
quote:
"Do you ever read any of the books you burn?"
He laughed. "That's against the law!"
"Oh. Of course."
--Fahrenheit 451
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 20:10:20
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I would think that it would be expensive to heat with current prices of the 4e materials, but if you bought one and want to burn it, more power to you!
I myself, if I dislike a book I have purchased, try to sell it on eBay or trade it in at a book handler so someone who does want it can get it on the cheap, but thats just me! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 02 Sep 2008 20:10:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 20:16:36
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Book stores take them back.
I don't know about online stores though; I don't ever buy from them.
But I don't see why anyone would want to return it - I can get tons of use out of it. Its also good to level a wobbly chair. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2008 20:17:02 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 20:28:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, there's always CASTLEMOURN. 
I'd love to see a comparison between the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and the Castlemourn Campaign Setting by someone who has both. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 22:07:39
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the castlemourn setting isnt bad, they have glow in the dark elves....
its an ogl setting, and looks pretty good, it is a low magic setting... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 23:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
So, my experience of the setting and the rules set doesn't match up with yours, because I'm a "people who want to understand how things are related, how the things work and why something has happened as it is described in the timeline." I am! I am people!
And, as has been said by myself and others, I think the book I bought has as much on offer in those departments as the gray box that got me started in the Realms. YummyVee, as the kid say.
That's where my views on the FRCG and yours diverge, Mr Rowe, because clearly the new product contains nothing new or groundbreaking as was the case with the Grey Boxed Set.
The latter showcased for the first time such things as mages' sigils, examples of mercenary companies, a large number of city maps with locations (albeit not fleshed out), the idea of lore-focused items such as unique spellbooks (for those who hadn't spotted them in DRAGON magazine), currency (of all sorts), a Roll of Years (which still today remains the hands-down, most elegant and simple way to open vistas of adventuring ideas for DMs in the Realms - something that practically every FR novel author should doff their hat to Ed about) and references to wonderful things to come like elven High Magic and Chosen and a few other things.
In comparison, the FRCG repeats much 1E/2E/3E information in less detail and 'updates' it for the current year with broad brushstrokes. The new elements introduced have an embarrasing lack of detail (what currency is used in Tymanther? We get told what currency is used in Cormyr ... for the FOURTH time ...) and as the book stands now with only the haphazard dangling carrot of articles in the DDI, they require significant and likely "all too hard" work on the part of FR DMs to bring up to speed in relation to hosting a campaign. The question that confronts me is: if I'm going to do all this work, why not do a homebrew setting? If I want more detail, the Realms is not where it's at anymore. Golarion looks a better bet.
Coupled with what I consider is a large amount of 'whitespace'(just look at the space left at the end of Ed's Returned Abeir section - you can't tell me that Ed underwrote here ... he's never done that in his life!) and a larger font than was used in the core rulebooks as well as filler material like the Loudwater and Treasure Table sections (which were again done in a far superior fashion in the 4E core rulebooks), I get a sense of this product being something of a rush job and/or lacking in focus.
I have it. There are parts of it I like. Some parts I like a lot. But overall this is a disappointing endpoint for the Realms in terms of published products.
The Swordsage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 04:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, there's always CASTLEMOURN.
I'd love to see a comparison between the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and the Castlemourn Campaign Setting by someone who has both.
I have both.
...But I've read neither.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 14:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, there's always CASTLEMOURN.
I'd love to see a comparison between the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and the Castlemourn Campaign Setting by someone who has both.
I have both.
...But I've read neither.
Well hurry up and get married, do the honey moon thing and get readin! Don't let us down furry one! It's your duty to read those forthwith! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:50:13
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| Take the plunge on Castlemourn, Wooly. Anyone pining for the pure discovery of the 1987 campaign set has it waiting for them in that book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 16:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, there's always CASTLEMOURN.
I'd love to see a comparison between the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and the Castlemourn Campaign Setting by someone who has both.
I have both.
...But I've read neither.
Well hurry up and get married, do the honey moon thing and get readin! Don't let us down furry one! It's your duty to read those forthwith!
I'm taking the FRCG and the Pathfinder book (assuming it arrives in time) on the honeymoon. When those are read (and after we're back from Ireland), it's back to reading the Ptolus book. Then I can get to Castlemourn. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Sep 2008 17:01:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Take the plunge on Castlemourn, Wooly. Anyone pining for the pure discovery of the 1987 campaign set has it waiting for them in that book.
I shall. I just can't do it now. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm taking the FRCG and the Pathfinder book (assuming it arrives in time) on the honeymoon. When those are read (and after we're back from Ireland), it's back to reading the Ptolus book. Then I can get to Castlemourn.
Here's an idea... have your soon-to-be wife read you passages from the FRCG while you peruse your copy of Castlemourn. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm taking the FRCG and the Pathfinder book (assuming it arrives in time) on the honeymoon. When those are read (and after we're back from Ireland), it's back to reading the Ptolus book. Then I can get to Castlemourn.
Here's an idea... have your soon-to-be wife read you passages from the FRCG while you peruse your copy of Castlemourn.
How romantic! I'm sure it'd be a great honeymoon... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 19:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm taking the FRCG and the Pathfinder book (assuming it arrives in time) on the honeymoon. When those are read (and after we're back from Ireland), it's back to reading the Ptolus book. Then I can get to Castlemourn.
Here's an idea... have your soon-to-be wife read you passages from the FRCG while you peruse your copy of Castlemourn.
If you have time while on honeymoon, let alone while in Ireland you must never sleep! That or you value the FR too much!
ed:sp |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 03 Sep 2008 19:02:42 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 20:07:24
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Now, now, it's supposed to be a honeymoon, not a Sexual Olympics! Romance, yes, but part of romance is . . . anticipation.
(She breathed, casually undoing some buttons and languidly shifting her long limbs oh-so-casually into another pose, before idly rising and drifting away . . . with just one long, dark-eyed look full of promise back over her shoulder . . .)
LOVE,
THO |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 00:37:46
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Note that this post will add anything to the actual discussion at hand, but . . .
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I myself, if I dislike a book I have purchased, try to sell it on eBay or trade it in at a book handler so someone who does want it can get it on the cheap, but thats just me!
Not that it's on subject or anything, but I am personally extremely offended when someone writes that they spent a few minutes on a book, didn't like it, and threw it in the trash/fire/garbage disposal/dog . . .
. . .
. . . Mostly because I believe in recycling.
Also, in my state (Washington), it's actually illegal not to recycle.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 01:35:38
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quote:
. . . Mostly because I believe in recycling.
Also, in my state (Washington), it's actually illegal not to recycle.
Cheers
To get back even more on topic, or perhaps even less on topic, is there recycling as a concept (or practice) in the Realms, or does the availability of the Planes effectively mean an unlimited source of materials?
(hmmmm...maybe this should go in the Ask... scrolls?) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 02:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Note that this post will add anything to the actual discussion at hand, but . . .
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I myself, if I dislike a book I have purchased, try to sell it on eBay or trade it in at a book handler so someone who does want it can get it on the cheap, but thats just me!
Not that it's on subject or anything, but I am personally extremely offended when someone writes that they spent a few minutes on a book, didn't like it, and threw it in the trash/fire/garbage disposal/dog . . .
. . .
. . . Mostly because I believe in recycling.
Also, in my state (Washington), it's actually illegal not to recycle.
Cheers
LOL, this from a scribe who once used his wife's eberron book as a doorstop? Now that's re-cycling at is finest!
P.S. point of clarity, I always finish a book once started no matter how tough the reading. ie, The Children of Hurin...I love JRR, but i had to set it aside and will pick it up again with a clear frame of mind!
I think the more I read this scroll, the more i realize people are going to find in something pretty much what they expect to.
If you don't like the recent changes, your probably not gonna like thr new FRCS. If you think its refreshing, you will find the FRCS to be new and fresh. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 03:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
LOL, this from a scribe who once used his wife's eberron book as a doorstop?
I believe that was our many-faced Sage, who's about due for another avatar change. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 03:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm taking the FRCG and the Pathfinder book (assuming it arrives in time) on the honeymoon. When those are read (and after we're back from Ireland), it's back to reading the Ptolus book. Then I can get to Castlemourn.
Here's an idea... have your soon-to-be wife read you passages from the FRCG while you peruse your copy of Castlemourn.
If you have time while on honeymoon, let alone while in Ireland you must never sleep! That or you value the FR too much!
ed:sp
I honestly don't expect to get much reading done, other than en route to and from Ireland (we're leaving from Orlando). But I don't travel away from home without more than enough reading material.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 03:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
LOL, this from a scribe who once used his wife's eberron book as a doorstop?
I believe that was our many-faced Sage, who's about due for another avatar change.
Aye. 'Twas me. Needless to say, the Lady K was not happy! I won't say what she did later to gain a measure of revenge for herself. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 10:26:04
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if you didnt like the book use it for TP.....
failing that take it to a bookstore that buys and sells used books.
like i wanted to do with my copy of the 4e frcs. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 04 Sep 2008 10:26:46 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 21:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
LOL, this from a scribe who once used his wife's eberron book as a doorstop?
I believe that was our many-faced Sage, who's about due for another avatar change.
Aye. 'Twas me. Needless to say, the Lady K was not happy! I won't say what she did later to gain a measure of revenge for herself.
Ah yes, I believe you shared thats in Erik's scroll, hence the confusion by me! (you won't even share it on your blog? I think would drive up your hits!)
Apologies the the lanky writer of dark sexy Realms novels for accusations of book doorstoppering |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 00:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Ah yes, I believe you shared thats in Erik's scroll, hence the confusion by me! (you won't even share it on your blog? I think would drive up your hits!)
Heh.
As it is, I'm not really all that interested in attracting large audiences to my blog. As I said in it's foundation post, it's mainly a place for me to ramble. If some of my online friends what to ramble along with me, that's fine.
As for sharing that particular tale on my blog, well... I know it'll likely result in the driving up of one form of hits. But it won't be of the virtual kind, if you follow my meaning. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Sep 2008 00:43:35 |
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Topic |
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Realms fan trying to see some value in new realms?
