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 Sea Elves and other aquatic races.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1306 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  04:06:43  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
We know Sea Elves will be MTOF and I've been looking for info on them and other aquatic races, especially Tritons (VGTM) and Water Genasi (EE) which are already playable races.

I know Sea Elves are divided in 3 basic subraces, Sea of Fallen Stars (Green with brown spots), Great Sea (Blue skin), and Marel (Evil Sea Elves of the Moonsea, pale skin and glowing eyes), worship Umberlee).

For Tritons I've found that worship Persana a God of Tritons, Archecture, and Guardianship, that despite the theocracy nature of Triton Society, seems missing in 5e. They also seem to have two cities, and many live in Myth Nentir with the Sea Elves, Sharlin, Merfolk, and Mokloths.

Not much is known about the Sea Elf Kingdoms of the Great Sea. the Sea Elves alone the Sword Coast, likely if the Great Sea subrace, are nomadic. The ones around Evermeet have their own King and Kingdom. I'm not sure as for the Sea of Fallen Stars beyond Myth Nentar and the Lake Solcolme (misspelled I know) colony. The Marel were cursed for not helping a human city, they are scary.

Merfolk worship Eadro (who is in 5e although merfolk ironically aren't playable) as do Morkloths (also unplayable), Sea Elves worship Deep Sashlees, and to a lesser extent Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine, except Marel who worship Umberlee.

Sharlin worship Tristina, who so far appears not to have made an appearance in 5e.

This is largely prep for MTOFs.

George Krashos
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Australia
5141 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  12:52:28  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is MTOF? Ed had an article in Dragon #267 that provided some information on some minor sea elven realms of the Sea of Swords

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 12 Mar 2018 13:01:33
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Brimstone
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Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  13:11:16  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Hoondatha
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Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  22:09:11  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You have the sea elf skin coloring backwards, at least according to Sea of Fallen Swords, which I consider the definitive work on undersea creatures. SoFS sea elves are blue with white patches (rarely ivory white with blue highlights), and Outer Sea elves are green.

Krash, thanks for the Ed article. I'll go take a look at that. I play more in the SoFS than the Outer Sea, but it's still good to read.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  22:29:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because the Sea Elves in the Inner sea have to deal with brackish waters and also some go as far as the Moonsea (which IS Fresh Water), I would hazard to guess their different coloration is related to their ability to breath both salt and fresh water (not a direct connection - more like a 'racial thing'). In other words, we know some groups of sea Elves can deal with both types of water (as can most fantasy water races... because designers can't be bothered with keeping track of actual science), so perhaps the 'Deep Sea' Elves of the great and Trackless Oceans are salt-water only? Nothing canon, mind you - I just think it might be an interesting spin on things.

I believe DL (Krynn) has the fresh and salt water types completely separate (KUDOS for them!), and have different names for the two groups.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  22:34:30  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that works, since we know that Outer Sea elves can also breathe air (Arilyn had a half-sea elf friend, and comments that that sea elf parent can breathe air long enough "to make it interesting." (Danilo's phrasing)

Personally, I've never gotten the idea of green sea elves in my head. To me, all sea elves are blue.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1306 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  23:37:51  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oops, didn't mean to mix them up.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1306 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  23:42:06  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13708
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moonbeast
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Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  01:25:50  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where do the Merrow fit in?
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1306 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  14:28:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Where do the Merrow fit in?



The merrow have never been playable, but it would be interesting.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1306 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  14:41:26  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Where do the Merrow fit in?



The merrow have never been playable, but it would be interesting.
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  22:56:05  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Because the Sea Elves in the Inner sea have to deal with brackish waters and also some go as far as the Moonsea (which IS Fresh Water), I would hazard to guess their different coloration is related to their ability to breath both salt and fresh water (not a direct connection - more like a 'racial thing'). In other words, we know some groups of sea Elves can deal with both types of water (as can most fantasy water races... because designers can't be bothered with keeping track of actual science), so perhaps the 'Deep Sea' Elves of the great and Trackless Oceans are salt-water only? Nothing canon, mind you - I just think it might be an interesting spin on things.


-A lot of fish are salt/freshwater, yeah, but I'd think that guys like Aquatic Elves, Triton, etc. have a bit more capable lungs. We can fresh air, polluted air, air with low oxygen content, pure oxygen...I'd assume that fresh and salt would be similar to those aquatic races. I do remember seeing rules in some book giving rules for penalizing freshwater creatures in salt water and vice versa, but I couldn't tell you where, or even what edition.

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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Mar 2018 :  20:47:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Where do the Merrow fit in?



The merrow have never been playable, but it would be interesting.

I now need to name a tavern/Inn somewhere 'The Merry Merrow'. There would, of course, be a story about a 'nice' merrow involved.

I see they changed Merrow to fiends in 5e... I guess not all the "lets make this old and known thing something else" attitude of 4e didn't completely die.

I'm not totally against this one, though - they were rather redundant with tons of other ebil sea races (like scrags). Its just going to be harder to spin the 'Merry Merrow' using a fiend.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Kentinal
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Posted - 14 Mar 2018 :  22:21:44  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey we had a Succubus Paladin, Eludecia. So all things should be possible.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Mar 2018 :  23:05:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Where do the Merrow fit in?



The merrow have never been playable, but it would be interesting.

I now need to name a tavern/Inn somewhere 'The Merry Merrow'. There would, of course, be a story about a 'nice' merrow involved.

I see they changed Merrow to fiends in 5e... I guess not all the "lets make this old and known thing something else" attitude of 4e didn't completely die.

I'm not totally against this one, though - they were rather redundant with tons of other ebil sea races (like scrags). Its just going to be harder to spin the 'Merry Merrow' using a fiend.



No, you must change it to the "Merry Married Merrow" then have him running a dockside tavern with his beautiful "looking" sea hag wife.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

736 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2018 :  01:04:46  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Hey we had a Succubus Paladin, Eludecia. So all things should be possible.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a



Risen fiends are nothing new. Planescape had a celestial and his succubus lover on the run because he'd gotten her pregnant. Wee Jas has a Lawful Neutral succubus as a servant.

Edited by - LordofBones on 15 Mar 2018 01:05:33
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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
696 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2018 :  09:21:34  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Where do the Merrow fit in?



The merrow have never been playable, but it would be interesting.

I now need to name a tavern/Inn somewhere 'The Merry Merrow'. There would, of course, be a story about a 'nice' merrow involved.

I see they changed Merrow to fiends in 5e... I guess not all the "lets make this old and known thing something else" attitude of 4e didn't completely die.

I'm not totally against this one, though - they were rather redundant with tons of other ebil sea races (like scrags). Its just going to be harder to spin the 'Merry Merrow' using a fiend.



Merrow are fiends now????? Of course you will have the usual group saying this makes plenty of sense.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
696 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2018 :  09:23:14  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So would Merrow be followers of Dagon now?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Mar 2018 :  11:12:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

So would Merrow be followers of Dagon now?



You know what... when I look at the original picture of Vaprak, god of trolls and ogres.... he looks to me more of a merrow than anything. Maybe a skinny merrow, but he is the father of the troll race too. Given that there's also a race of scrags (or sea trolls) too, I wouldn't be surprised if the troll and ogre races actually started in the sea and expanded to the land (or maybe since Othea is land-based, some took after her, so when she gave birth it was to both sea and land versions of each). Makes me half wonder if Vaprak isn't a sea power (which would be kind of interesting since so was Ulutiu).

From a lore standpoint, it makes me wonder WHERE is the mountain(s) that Othea represents and are they bordering the ocean, with the ocean periodically flowing into them. I see something about an Othea Tor on the Wiki, but I've never fully read the twilight giants trilogy. Maybe this is representative.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
117 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2018 :  18:10:10  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

So would Merrow be followers of Dagon now?



From a lore standpoint, it makes me wonder WHERE is the mountain(s) that Othea represents and are they bordering the ocean, with the ocean periodically flowing into them. I see something about an Othea Tor on the Wiki, but I've never fully read the twilight giants trilogy. Maybe this is representative.



If Othea is represented by a mountain connected to an ocean flow, then the mountain could represent her womb, and the flow could be coming out, not in, as she is after all the mother of giants.




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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 15 Mar 2018 18:10:39
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  00:57:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The mountain is literally shown on the maps in the Twilight Giants trilogy. Its in north-eastern Hartsvale. If you extrapolate the maps outward (as I did), and play with them just a bit, there is a HUGE inlet/bay (sound/gulf?) ABOVE Icewind dale that cuts deep into the Icefield/Glacier/Polar cap there, and if that is the 'Endless Ice sea' shown on the TG trilogy maps, then maybe it is sort-of close (plus, a LOT could have changed in 36K+ years... in the short story Othea was dangling her feet in the sea when Annam caught her with Ulutiu... who lept into that sea and tried to get away. That would be where the Great Glacier is now (and Ed has confirmed to me that the Great Ice Sea - Yal Tengri - used to connect to the sea above Icewind Dale, so there is a 'Northwest Passage' thing going on there, which tends to freeze-over and un-freeze in very long cycles (like maybe every millennia or so).

Thus, that very large mountain range in the center of the Great Glacier (which I used to think was Ulutiu under there) was probably an island at one point sitting in a vast, northern sea, until Annam got ticked-off. The glacier has been slowly receding - Vaasa is only 'a couple hundred years old".

EDIT:
The Maps

Its 'Twilight Tor'. Its a split peak, and it may have just represented her breast (not sure if I am remembering that, or I just figured that - it was a LONG time ago I read those). There WAS a reason it was split (it had something to do with the main plot and why the titan was stuck there). Sorry about Photobucket; I don't use that site anymore, but I had already posted it there years ago, so rather then repost it somewhere else...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2018 01:05:43
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  01:30:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Followers of Dagon... that could work!

My thoughts ATM are that there are really two types of Merrow, and one is an offshoot of the other (fiendish bloodline 'triggered' by the Spellplague). I did something similar with Wargs when they turned them into lizard-puppies.

All things are reconcilable, but when you have to spend more time 'fixing' the game than playing it, that's not a good thing.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Hey we had a Succubus Paladin, Eludecia. So all things should be possible.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a



Risen fiends are nothing new. Planescape had a celestial and his succubus lover on the run because he'd gotten her pregnant. Wee Jas has a Lawful Neutral succubus as a servant.

Funny you should brings this up - I think there really is just one 'Seraph' type Celestial, and depending on their alignment and which group they are working for, they are called by different names (and they also 'take on' the aspect of whichever way they are going... wasn't there a video game like that? Found it - it was called Fable).

So basically, Valkyries, angels, 'Air Maidens' (Finnish), Succubi, Erynies, etc, etc... are really just all one big group that split-up after the Dawn War (most took all different sides, which is how the groups are considered now). However, unless rapidly triggered by some unusual event or source of power (relic, artifact, wild magic surge, etc.), the changes happen slowly over time (unlike the video game), so it could take thousands of years for an 'angel' to start looking a little succubi. So you can have an 'off' week, or an off year, or maybe even an off century - ya know, where you are just in a bad mood and decide to pull the arms off mortals - but it wouldn't change your appearance fast enough. These beings are immortal, and thus, change s-l-o-w-l-y, both inwardly and outwardly.

So if you are an Archon and you go to sleep next to your buddy, you don't have to worry about him looking like a Pit Fiend overnight... even if he had some really nasty thoughts in his sleep (yeah... I know... they probably don't sleep... just roll with it).

Also, just like with gods (or any other 'spirit being' for that matter), gender is a matter of preference. They can appear however they want (and this was canon for gods and succubi/incubi anyway). Just my personal take on this stuff, though.

EDIT:
So that kid should have been born by now... Little Nicky?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2018 02:08:47
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  04:01:01  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Marrow in 5e aren't fiends, they are large Monstrosities. They we're merfolk trapped in the abyss that got transformed by their horrifying time there into Marrow by Demigorgon. This is from the MM and that doesn't mean its for FR.
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Bragi
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Posted - 20 Mar 2018 :  01:12:59  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My current campaign has my group exploring the sea elf ruins of Coryselmal. I spent way too much time generating random monster encounters for the ruins. Most of the lore in Sea of Fallen Stars is useful but it takes some parsing. I've re-read it several times and each time I find something that I missed before. I also came up with a table for all of the rulers of Aryselmalyr. There were cannon sources for around 12 of them and the rest I filled in. I believe I ended up with 70+ over the lifespan of the country.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin

Edited by - Bragi on 20 Mar 2018 01:14:47
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Mar 2018 :  10:30:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Marrow in 5e aren't fiends, they are large Monstrosities. They we're merfolk trapped in the abyss that got transformed by their horrifying time there into Marrow by Demigorgon. This is from the MM and that doesn't mean its for FR.



Why in the hell did they f*ck with the origin of the merrow? There was a perfectly acceptable answer. They're sea ogres. Ogres came from Vaprak. Why does it have to involve Demogorgon and the abyss?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bragi
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Posted - 21 Mar 2018 :  19:55:49  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Why in the hell did they f*ck with the origin of the merrow? There was a perfectly acceptable answer. They're sea ogres. Ogres came from Vaprak. Why does it have to involve Demogorgon and the abyss?



Ogres worship Vaprak but Merrow worship Panzuriel according to Dragon Magazine 343. There is mention in Demihuman Deities under Deep Sashelas that his enemies include Panzuriel and Demogorgon. I would have preferred if they would have used Panzuriel instead of Demogorgon but I can see where they were coming from. Sea of Fallen Stars mentions that the sea elves fear the Merrow due to their physical strength but what if the sea elves have a deeper secret that they are hiding and their fear stems from the origin of the race itself.

I think that they were trying to get away from having undersea races simply as alternate versions of land-dwelling races.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin
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