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 5e Shar and Shadow Weave
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Samothrake
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  05:30:19  Show Profile  Click to see Samothrake's MSN Messenger address Send Samothrake a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
My group just recently got back in to the main D&D 5e. Mostly because we feel that there is finally enough official published material for us to make the characters we want.

Anyways, in my homebrewed world we have combined the main Forgotten Realms, Laereakond (thanks to Ed's wonderful treatise on how Laerakond could have been on Toril all this time), Monte Cook's Serran continent from Arcana Evolved (it replaces the continent that Maztica is on) and also Ptolus. During creation of this world we managed to create a character who just happens to be a Chosen of both Mystra and Shar. Now we have been going on in our game with what I think are the 3.5 versions of the Weave and Shadow Weave. So I am now looking into is what the 5e versions of these two things are and in terms game effects. However, I have run into an interesting bit of a quandry - I'm not sure the Shadow Weave exists any more!

I have gone through the various wikis and read about the events that led up to the Second Sundering and the Spellplague and events in Realmsspace in 4e. And one thing that stands out to me is that while in the transition from 4e to 5e Mystra was reborn through her Chosen, the Silverfire and whatnot, and went on to fix the Weave, we have a different story with Shar. I see that when Cyric killed Mystra in her home-plane the Weave dissipated and when it did so did the Shadow Weave. At this same time Shar 'created' the Shadowfell of realmsspace and moved her home there. Now it looks like close to a hundred years passed with the Spellplague in full effect until Mystra was returned. Around this same time the Tablets of Fate were rewritten, and the realms returned to a state that is looks very much like it did in the previous century (5e Realms looks very much like 3.5e Realms – just with different game mechanics.)

But while we have quite a lot of material about what happened with Mystra and her return, we seem to have very little information about Shar. The last we see of her that is chronicled in the wikis is that she created the Shadowfell and created a vast palatial estate in the Astral Sea called the Towers of Night, which she shared with Talona, Sseth and Zehir. In the material I can find, I can find no instance of anything stating that Shar reestablished the Shadow Weave. Not even the official campaign sourcebook for the 5e realms mentions the Shadow Weave.

So, I guess the question I have is this: in official 5e D&D Forgotten Realms, is there a new Shadow Weave, or is there just the Weave while Shar plots and schemes on how to kill Mystra once and for all?

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 10 Mar 2018 :  14:55:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the shadow weave hasn't existed since the spellplague.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  05:57:38  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I would assume that, if the Weave exists again, the Shadow Weave could also exist again. One of the explanations of the Shadow Weave was "the spaces in-between the Weave". As magicians start using the new Weave, and it starts "fraying" as Mystra keeps up with maintaining it, there is always the possibility that Shar is able to sneak in there and plant the Shadow Weave in those frayed spaces, building it back up.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31134 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  14:29:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Shadow Weave was one of the greatest creative mistakes of the 3E era... It might have been more workable, but the design team could never get together and decide when it was created, how it worked with regular magic, and how it worked in the absence of regular magic. Just about every 3E source that addressed the Shadow Weave contradicted something prior, and I recall when the so-called "supermodules" came out that mere weeks after one was published, Rich Baker was on record saying the Shadow Weave hadn't been handled correctly in that latest book.

In a way, the Shadow Weave represents what went wrong with the Realms: the designers made decisions based on what worked for their specific project for that specific moment, and ignored everything else.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  18:13:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't Ed destroyed the Shadow Weave for good in the last Sundering novel? (The Herald). There is no Shadow Weave in the post-Sundering Realms. Mystra didn't allowed Shar to create it again in the mentioned novel.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  22:31:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My assumption here is that when Mystryl 'died' {shakes fist at Karsus}, Shar was able to snatch-back part of her power she lost WAY at the beginning. It wasn't much, but it was a start. Another assumption I am making here - and this one is based on FAR less canon then that last bit - is that this is also about when the 'Dark Chronology' first began to exist. Whatever Magical Chaos ensued caused a fracturing of the timeline, creating a 'divergent path' for prophesy. I think this is when she would have first put into motion her plans to get the Dark Three to ascend (not that it was only a few centuries after The fall that they became gods - a mere blink on an eye to a primordial, immortal being). I also have some fun ways to tie all that to Lolth (she used to be the goddess of that sort of thing - fate & prophesy), but thats fodder for another thread. It could be as simple as the 'hiccup' in the Weave caused a momentary 'blindspot' to occur, which finally gave her her chance after so many millennia (after all, if Mystra is 'protector of the Timestream', it would be damn sure hard to make any nefarious plans to 'sneak up on her'). Shar was able to create a divergent path that the new Mystra couldn't foresee.

ANYHOW, Shar finally starts 'making moves' right around the time of 1e, which escalates right into 3e (and we can literally see this happening, as 'shadow' became the monolithic threat in The Realms). Because of the actions of The Dark Three, the first Mystra is destroyed, and Shar uses her connection - which she has been building up - to seize the rest of her power back to levels near what she had pre-WoL&D. She does her thing, and her power surges as more and more people find out about and start using 'The Shadoweave' (really, just the 'flipside' of the Weave itself), and eventually it all comes to a head and Mystra 2.0 dies... again. Unfortunately, the thing Shar never understood (but Selūne/Mystra did) is that one side can't exist without the other, and the Shadoweave collapsed right along with the Weave (imagine trying to hold onto the 'shadow' of something, after that something has been obliterated). So instead of been EMpowered, Shar winds-up DEpowered... for a time, at least (I just read some weird stuff about her being trapped in Ordulin? In some sort of 'Chaos Maelstrom'? 4e sure did like it's Maelstroms).

Supposition: Its been heavily hinted at in the lore that this was Mystra's plan all along. That she she realized Shar had managed to seize back control of half of the (Raw) magical power of Realmspace, and in order to get it back, both halves of the Weave would have to be destroyed (as I said above, the Shadoweave could not exist without the Weave, so to stop Shar, she had to stop herself as well). I think part of this plan had to do with Azuth and Savras (Savras was able to see that which Mystra could not - the plan inside the Dark Chronology), and it was supposed to be Azuth that rebooted Mystra 3.0. She had even given a huge chunk of her power over to him in order to accomplish just this. Problem is, Asmodeus was also on to the plan, and like every 'good' devil, he wanted 'his cut'. He had laid his own plans aside Shar's and managed to trap Azuth, before Azuth had a chance to put Mystra's own plan into motion. So, in her moment of victory, it was all snatched away from the sidelines by Asmodeus (and I can literally hear Shar and the ghost of Mystra screaming as both sets of plans go awry).

And thus things stayed for about a century, and then something changed (do we even know what? Could it have been as simple as Azuth finally breaking free from Asmodeus?) The way I spun it in another thread is that when Ao decided to finally reboot EVERYTHING, he went to Hell and asked Asmodeus what he wanted in exchange for Azuth, and now Asmodeus has a divine presence in The Realms (he always existed in canon, but not 'as a god' with cults and stuff; this is what has changed). I have further ideas for all of that (regarding Set/Zehir and 'The Serpent'), but that's got nothing to do with the thread topic.

So unless someone does another MAJOR Weave-wammy (which is doubtful, because of the limitations put on magic since Netheril), the newest iteration of Mystra has FULL control of magic back, which she actually hasn't had since the time of Netheril, and that means there is NO WAY Shar can reboot her Weave. Side-theory: IF the heresy that Shar & lolth are the same (or both aspects of ONE something) ever bears fruit, it could be that 'Sharloth' was trying to create the Demonweave as a substitute for the now-missing Weave, and using demons would be very appropriate, since their counterpart - Devils - were holding all of Selūne/Shar/Mystra's power at the time (while Azuth was in-thrall to Asmodeus). In fact, come to think of it, Shar may have also been responsible for helping Azuth 'get out of jail', since he was holding all the cards, she would have had to be on the 'good side' for once, or rather, it would have been expedient for her to make allies with some good or neutral powers to try and get him back, just so she could go back to plotting against Mystra and Selūne. It would make for an interesting story, at any rate.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2018 22:38:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  22:44:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and as an aside, I have an (Unfinished) map where I Incorporate ALL of Larakond into the Chultan 'arm', overlapping what little we had there to begin with (in other words, it was the PERFECT spot to do so, both thematically, and lore-wise (because it isn't a 'lore-heavy' region). So Sarrukh/Yuna-ti ruins are now sharing jungle-space with Draconic ruins - seems appropriate, eh?

I stopped working on that because I wanted to release it with a triple-adventure conversion, and I got stuck on a city map. The idea was to blend two old Dragon Magazine APs into the newest Chult Adventure, while at the same time reintroducing the Returned Abeir sites into the setting... and also turning Tharsult into a new/old 'Sandbox' (it got pretty badly beat-up by the Spellplague, so I made some changes and figured DMs could 'make the place their own'). Perhaps a little TOO ambitious...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2018 22:45:59
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2018 :  23:30:09  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Didn't Ed destroyed the Shadow Weave for good in the last Sundering novel? (The Herald). There is no Shadow Weave in the post-Sundering Realms. Mystra didn't allowed Shar to create it again in the mentioned novel.


-Like she'd be content being scolded and go home.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  21:08:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the canon Realms, Shar lost most of her power during and after the Second Sundering. She is not the same Shar of 3e/4e, and will not make a comeback any time soon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2977 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2018 :  22:55:31  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

In the canon Realms, Shar lost most of her power during and after the Second Sundering. She is not the same Shar of 3e/4e, and will not make a comeback any time soon.


WotC "Hold my Beer"...


"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31134 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  00:18:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

In the canon Realms, Shar lost most of her power during and after the Second Sundering. She is not the same Shar of 3e/4e, and will not make a comeback any time soon.


WotC "Hold my Beer"...





Yeah, really. She came out of nowhere to be the big baddie of 3E and 4E, after not doing a lot in 1E/2E... So if WotC was to once more decide that "shadows are kewl!" then we'd return to the ALL SHAR, ALL THE TIME! show we had in 3E/4E.

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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

700 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  00:31:53  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The real truth is that Mystra absorbed the Shadow Weave. Now she wears black eyeliner and black lipstick, and listens to tanar'ri rock bands while telling Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras that they "just don't understand her".

Understandably, Shar's contacting the baatezu to sue Mystra for copyright infringement.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3158 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2018 :  22:49:32  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Which makes it all the more likely that she'd attempt to recreate it, given that it was a source of power for her the first time.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 13 Mar 2018 22:50:04
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Delnyn
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  16:16:25  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The real truth is that Mystra absorbed the Shadow Weave. Now she wears black eyeliner and black lipstick, and listens to tanar'ri rock bands while telling Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras that they "just don't understand her".

Understandably, Shar's contacting the baatezu to sue Mystra for copyright infringement.



Hehe. Are the remaining Chosen of Mystra switching to goth fashions too?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7049 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  18:10:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The real truth is that Mystra absorbed the Shadow Weave. Now she wears black eyeliner and black lipstick, and listens to tanar'ri rock bands while telling Azuth, Velsharoon and Savras that they "just don't understand her".

Understandably, Shar's contacting the baatezu to sue Mystra for copyright infringement.



But she hung out with Leira one weekend. Now she's got pink, purple, and blue stripes added to her black hair. She also went down to the godsmall and got blue/purple fingernails with silver stars. Oh, and everyone was telling her she should get a raven, but she decided it'd be cooler to have a magpie.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  19:58:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's also into spiders now... but I have a feeling she always was.

The New Shar?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7049 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  03:34:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

She's also into spiders now... but I have a feeling she always was.

The New Shar?



Is it wrong that my first thought in seeing that picture was "I could motorboat that"?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  04:04:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, what tangled web you'd weave!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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