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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 16:55:07
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Hi, long time player and lover of the Forgotten Realms, brand new poster in Candlekeep
I posted this on another message board, someone suggested to me that I should post it here, so this is a copy/paste of my post:
"Hi, here is a Forgotten Realms question/post for those interested
In the last couple of years, with the Lost Empires of Faerun sourcebook and the Serpents Kingdoms sourcebook there has been a whole lot of revelation about the first age in the Realms, the “Days of Thunder”, the “prehistoric” age of Toril over -20,000 years before the present year in the Realms.
In the Days of Thunder there were a number of consecutive world-spanning empires of the “Creator Races” the first and greatest sentient races in the Realms (that created or de-evolved into many of the primitive humanoids and monsters in the modern age): The Sarrukh, The Batrachi, The Aearee, and The Fey. In earlier Realms canon the Dragons were a Creator Race but that appears to have been changed. Humanity is also a “Creator Race” but was not much more than Neanderthals during that time and only in the present history (in the Realms) have humans reached world-spanning potential.
Now, here is the way I see it, mostly using basic scientific theory and some general train of thought (Don’t you hate it when new canon infringes on your years-long thought-out home-brew?  *l*)
The Creator Races are the true, native sentient species evolved on the planet of Aber-Toril. The has planet existed for millions of years and numerous species have naturally (Darwin’s theory) evolved into sentience...the most successful species being the orders (as in scientific orders) of the Sarrukh (reptile), the Batrachi (amphibian), the Aearee (bird) species, some of the Progenitor Races. I also maintain that what was to become humanity also had its own time in the Days of Thunder, a race I termed the Primians (human).
I do not see the Fey as a progenitor race as they are not “natural” (Darwin’s theory) but are usually accepted in RPGs as living embodiments of either nature or life...every D&D world has a fey population to a certain extent, depending on it’s youth and level of civilization. So the Fey as a progenitor is out.
I could go into the history of the Primians but that’s not the purpose of this post and this post is too long anyway so I’ll just finish by saying in my home brew Forgotten Realms campaign (that I have been building/rebuilding from 2nd to 3rd Ed., tinkering on and off with since 2001), the core of the campaign is the premise that there is a hidden, unbroken bloodline of Primian-Humanity that has existed for over 40,000, dedicated to the worship of the Sun, Moon and Nature and as the fallout of the Time of Troubles continue (ancient secrets awakening) the Primian dynasties must also reveal themselves...
So mostly this long post is for the FOR fans/players to get their thoughts on the Creator Races and how everything ancient is becoming new again in the Realms."
and if anyone is interested, I have alot more ideas about the Days of Thunder as a whole and my Primians
Kalin
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 17:25:51
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Welcome to Candlekeep! 
It sounds like you've got an interesting idea going on, there... I'd like to see more.
If you check out some volumes of the Candlekeep Compendium (particularly the fourth volume, I believe), you'll see some good stuff done by our own scribes, in regards to the Creator Races. Just click on the link in my sig. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 17:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Welcome to Candlekeep!
It sounds like you've got an interesting idea going on, there... I'd like to see more.
If you check out some volumes of the Candlekeep Compendium (particularly the fourth volume, I believe), you'll see some good stuff done by our own scribes, in regards to the Creator Races. Just click on the link in my sig.
I have read the compendiums, they were pretty good
what happens if your idea conflicts with something published in the compendiums? (I asked this in another thread)
Kalin |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 17:49:09
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While our esteemed Administrator Alaundo could answer this much better than I myself could, not a darn thing would be my answer. While some members of the forum play off the ideas of others, I don't think that any article that is either included in the Compendium or on the site proper must be related to or reconciled with any other article. And just so you have the information, the main site also has several links to articles written by scribes that aren't directly in the Compendium.
The Compendium itself has a core staff, but the articles hosted on the main site are culled from all of the scribes wandering around the keep, and there are some great ideas in both places. Thanks for stopping in, and I hope to see more of your ideas, and the ideas sparked by your ideas, in the near future.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 17:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I have read the compendiums, they were pretty good
what happens if your idea conflicts with something published in the compendiums? (I asked this in another thread)
Kalin
I'm glad you like them!
The stuff in the Compendiums is semi-official at best; so I'd not worry about conforming to it. Some of the stuff in there does conform quite closely to established Realmslore, but a lot of the rest of it falls into the uncovered, "grey" areas of Realmslore -- places where there's a note or two, at most, and the rest hasn't been officially detailed.
As we are not an official site, the stuff we publish isn't official, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jun 2006 17:59:53 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 17:39:40
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| I'd like to hear more about this Primian race. Please post more Kalin. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:15:42
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This was my original post on Paizo's site, just for reference sake: quote:
The way I have pictured it, pretty much from FR5 Savage Frontier when they first mentioned the Creator Races, is that they were interlopers to Toril. Originally I read it as the gods had created Toril, but before they could follow through with their original plans, the creator races showed up and stared doing experiments, introducing new races, etc.
Since then, Ao was introduced, and we got a bit more info on the gods and their origins, so I basically picture it like this. Ao drew Toril out of chaos and set what we would call the physics of the plane in motion. Chauntea arose as the goddess that embodies Toril, Shar developed as darkness, and Selune as light, and Mystryl was the conflict between the two. Ao, I have surmised, was content to leave "evolution" to its course until intelligent creatures came about, at which point he would let his spiritual "daughters" start to influence them.
Before that could happen, the creator races came to Toril from other realities. The original creator races that were mentioned in FR5 were the reptilian, the avian, and the amphibious. Later humans, dragons, and fey were added. I would also ditch dragons, because their histories are a bit of a mystery in Faerun, though at one time they ruled the continent. In FR5 it was somewhat surmised that the dragons might have been tampered with by the reptilian creator race, so it gets muddled. At any rate, I think the fey fit in because of the fey crossroads that run through Toril and connect it to Faerie. Not only did this bring a lot of creatures from Faerie (the elves fled Faerie due to a massive calamity to the place there lived there), but it also changed many native creatures as they interacted with Faerie and its denizends (the seelie court faerie and unselee templates in the Dragon Compendium Volume One are good of this). I guess you could argue that the Faerie alterations to creatues were less intentional than the Sarrukh, Batrachi, and Aearee tampering with creatures.
Now following with this logic, I can see the "prehuman humans" you are talking about. Its possible that a human culture from another reality showed up in Faerun and altered the native primates of Toril, creating humans in their own image. For whatever reason, they bowed out before thier altered primates cold rise to ascendancy, due to the other creator races. This would still seem to work with what you are picturing here. So its coming from a different direction, but I think it still works.
If you are interested, at Candlekeep we have produced a few online issues of material known as the Candlekeep Compendium. I'll list the links here for the issue of the Compendium that have articles that touch on the Days of Thunder and the Creator Races.
Candlekeep Compendium, Volume IV:
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip
Candlekeep Compendium, Volume III:
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_III.zip
Also, this timeline might be a bit helpful:
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/grandhistory.zip
And of course, if you want to get a bunch of FR fanatics willing to look at your idea, come on over to Candlekeep and post this topic there. Quite a few scribes there are interested in this kind of thing.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:23:13
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Now, what I was thinking of after reading your ideas is this . . . perhaps some of the precursors of some of the more "balanced, nature type" people of Faerun were students of, or allied to, the Primians, for example, the precursors to the Ffolk and the people of Chult, and perhaps some of the humans that now inhabit Maztica.
It could also be that some of the Primians split off from their balanced, nature loving kin, and inpired the precursors of the more magically recklass human nations, such as the ancestors of Netheril and Imaskar.
The Primians may have withdrawn from the world because they didn't want to fight their own kin that had inspired the ancient precursors of the more "magically ambitious" humans.
The other thing that I am put in mind of, is that if you do want to use any of my ideas about early humans messing with the other primates, it give you a good reason to have Neanderthals from Frostburn in various regions of Faerun (though, considering "Cave men" were a monster in 1st edition, I'm betting there are some in Fearun in some manner or another anyway).
The idea of humans being advance before their time reminds me of the Celestials from Marvel Comics. The Celestials advanced the primates on earth before they naturally evolved, and created baseline humans (essentially what would have evolved natureally), the Eternals (uber powerful superbeings), and the deviants (things that are hardy survivors, and haves some useful mutations, but generally are shorter lived than the other branches, and wildly divergent in appearance).
In fact, if you really wanted to get into it, perhaps some humanoids are actually the equivilant of "deviants" from the example above. Or maybe they are hiding and haven't poked their heads out.
Like Brian, I would be interested to see what you picture humans that have been around, advanced, and in hiding for tens of thousands of years would be like. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 21:52:12
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OK, I’m trying to sort all this out in my mind so it won’t be 1000’s of words in length...I am working on a submission to Candlekeep that expands on my idea/campaign more fully. Here is a first draft of the beginning:
Like I posted before, my Primians are based of the natural evolution theory, assuming that the basic laws of nature apply to Faerun as they do to Earth. On Earth life (fauna/animal life) evolved basically as one celled organism--multicellular organism--invertebrate--then diverged to arachnid—insect and fish—amphibian—reptile diverging again into dinosaur—bird and mammal. The evolution theory on Faerun would mean after the creation/birth of Jannath/Chauntea/Earth Mother the development of life was similar to Earth’s (but probably faster though with divine assistance).
Next is my idea the “Creator” races (which should be more named the “Creation” Races) are “natural” animals that evolved into having sentience. I can’t remember the elven name for the Creator Races, I think it means “the first ones”.
On Earth there has only one sentient creature has evolved to this day, Homo sapiens (humans), though there were possibly over a half-a-dozen advanced primates living less than 50,000 years ago. I have also heard that the raptor dinosaur family’s skull cavity indicates they had a higher brain and possibly could have developed sentience (and considering dinosaurs were around millions of years why couldn’t there have been a sentient dinosaur?).
This would mean that there was the possibility of dozens or hundreds of “Creator Races”, the oldest invertebrate, insectile and piscine (fish) then amphibious and reptilian and finally avian and mammalian. And like Homo sapiens, maybe only a handful survived to civilization, to build empires. These few are the ones that are remembered in the present time. The evolved primates Creator Races would have spawned descendants such as the neanderthals, yeti, taer, gromman, hadzoee (sp?). For humanity, their progenitor was the Primian.
The Primians were the last of the “civilized” Creator Races, appearing generally as tall, strong humans with pleasant features. They quickly spread across the super-continent out competing many of the other primitive races. The Primians were also one of the more favored slave races as they were quick learners, agile and resilient but yet weak and fragile (compared to other Creator Races), desirable qualities for pliable slave-stock. Many prehistoric cites were constructed by Primian hands and used as breeding stock for the older Creator Races (especially for the sarrukh).
Near the mid-point of Age the Sarrukh Empires the Primians began constructing their own cities, raising their own temples and now competing with the great Creator Races: the Sarrukh, Batrachi, Aearee and what other Creator species existed. In time there were at least five great Primian Empires, each developing their own culture, differing from the others.
For the greatest strengths of the Primians were their adaptability and unlimited potential. Though born weak and helpless and requiring education in their youth to become productive members of the community, there was practically no limit to their abilities. As the other Creator’s empires grew old and stagnant the civilizations of the Primians only thrived.
If historians could look far back beyond the mists of time they would see that each Primian Empire followed its own path into the future but like the other mighty Creator Races they all disappeared beyond legend.
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 21:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The idea of humans being advance before their time reminds me of the Celestials from Marvel Comics. The Celestials advanced the primates on earth before they naturally evolved, and created baseline humans (essentially what would have evolved natureally), the Eternals (uber powerful superbeings), and the deviants (things that are hardy survivors, and haves some useful mutations, but generally are shorter lived than the other branches, and wildly divergent in appearance).
In fact, if you really wanted to get into it, perhaps some humanoids are actually the equivilant of "deviants" from the example above. Or maybe they are hiding and haven't poked their heads out.
That is what I was thinking like too..I see each of the Primian civilizations (from the last post) each going into their own direction and becoming almost "super humans" but then each civilizations meeting it's end in one way or another...the Primians in my campaign are based of one of these fallen civilizations. The Atlanteans in the Rifts RPG are another inspiration.
What I don't want to do is create a base race +15 CR like the Sarrukh, I have always seen the human as the strongest D&D race due to their potential...eithor culturally, morally, physically, etc. about every other D&D race has soem sort of limit of where they can go, what they can do, etc. but humans can really do anything
in the Realms the Primians (genetically at least) layed down the foundation for the humans of today that are now starting to dominate Toril.
I also am aware of the "immigrant" human bloodlines (like the Shou and the Calim) and hope to add those ideas into the story too.
Write soon
Kalin |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 03:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
On Earth there has only one sentient creature has evolved to this day, Homo sapiens (humans),
What about dolphins and mice? 
On a more serious note... With the arrival of the Creator Races, I don't see evolution as having a huge chance to produce intelligent beings, unless it happened on an otherwise uninhabited continent. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 14:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What about dolphins and mice?
On a more serious note... With the arrival of the Creator Races, I don't see evolution as having a huge chance to produce intelligent beings, unless it happened on an otherwise uninhabited continent.
dolphins, elephants, wolves and greater primates 
And I do agree that evolution of sentients grinds down almost to a halt with the arrival of one sentient species but remember that Aber-Toril was a super-continent at the time plus there are also two other fantastical factors Earth does not hold: the underwater races/civilizations and the Underdark, so that triples the environments for evolution: dry planet surface, under the super-ocean and underground (which in most fiction, the oldest races come from, those “alien beings” like the aboleth, phaerimm and sharn...alien radiation evolution? ).
There is also the possible factor of “divine evolution” as Jannath/Chauntea may have wished to accelerate evolution in some species for whatever purposes
Kalin
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 16:01:07
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I’d also like to add my view on the origins of other races, hopefully it’ll help
I see five types of sentients in the Realms:
1) Natural Evolution : the Creator Races that I named in my campaign “The Children of Ellese” (the ancient Primian name for the Earthmother).
2) Divine Seeding : as detailed in Planescape originally, gods/powers require faith to survive and the Prime Material Plane is the richest source of faith. Some gods “seed” worlds with their “children” races to increase their own power, the younger the world the better (less competition). I see the first elves and dwarves, the giants and dragons and the northern (mountain) orcs as seeded races.
3) Interlopers : either interplanetary (outer space i.e. spelljamming) or multiplanar (gates, portals, conduits, etc.) these races arrived in the Realms as immigrants or invaders. This method may blur with #2 divine seeding but a true interloper was not placed directly into the world but arrived by accident or my mortal plans. Beholders, illithids, the original moon and gold elves would be interlopers.
4) Created/Mutated/Altered : a broad sweep of any race that already existed in the Realms that was either created on purpose (usually my magical breeding or engineering), by chance (curses, Underdark radiation, Far Realm warping, etc.), cross-breeding or more rarely by natural mutation. This example can also blur with other examples. The yuan-ti, beholder-kin, half-elves/orcs/dragons/etc., the drow, gray dwarves and grimlock are all examples.
5) Misc./Unknown : some “races” like the Fey and elemental races kind of just “appear” in the Prime, the Fey where ever there is life and the elementals where there are strong and pure regions of their native element. Neither “race” normally interacts with the rest of the world too much but there are exceptions (like the Yuir Wood, the genies of Calimshan were more interlopers), the Fey more so than elementals. Undead could technically (loosely) be associated in this category.
Kalin |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 10:50:15
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
4) Created/Mutated/Altered : a broad sweep of any race that already existed in the Realms that was either created on purpose (usually my magical breeding or engineering), by chance (curses, Underdark radiation, Far Realm warping, etc.), cross-breeding or more rarely by natural mutation. This example can also blur with other examples. The yuan-ti, beholder-kin, half-elves/orcs/dragons/etc., the drow, gray dwarves and grimlock are all examples.
Evolution through influence from the Far Realm may not be the way to go. The problem with that interpretation suggests that creatures touched by the Far Realm may no longer subscribe to the notion of Prime Material reality. If they've been affected by the nature of the Far Realm too much, they may not be able to reproduce in the classic sense, nor have the opportunity to pass their mutated aspects on to the next generation.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 14:15:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Evolution through influence from the Far Realm may not be the way to go. The problem with that interpretation suggests that creatures touched by the Far Realm may no longer subscribe to the notion of Prime Material reality. If they've been affected by the nature of the Far Realm too much, they may not be able to reproduce in the classic sense, nor have the opportunity to pass their mutated aspects on to the next generation.
That is very true, I didn't think of it that way...I forgot of how strong the "unnaturalness/alien to our world" theme the Far Realm has
I was thinking more of the line of "radioactive" mutant kinda thing (like generations of "The Hills Have Eyes" mutants), only using Far Realm radiation/pollution to as the cause
Kalin
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 14:59:49
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I don't think there's anything wrong with having Far Realm influence on creatures in the Realms... it just depends on how much influence we're talking about. We know the Far Realm still have some presence within the 3e FR cosmology, as CoS indicated. So we've got a basis to play on.
Obviously, enough influence to mark the creatures as something "alien" is appropriate -- for example, the illithids. But unless you're looking specifically to include Cthulhu-heavy elements in your Realms campaign... I'd keep the influence to a minimum. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 15:17:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't think there's anything wrong with having Far Realm influence on creatures in the Realms... it just depends on how much influence we're talking about. We know the Far Realm still have some presence within the 3e FR cosmology, as CoS indicated. So we've got a basis to play on.
Obviously, enough influence to mark the creatures as something "alien" is appropriate -- for example, the illithids. But unless you're looking specifically to include Cthulhu-heavy elements in your Realms campaign... I'd keep the influence to a minimum.
no, not Cthulhu-heavy elements, especially the Great Old Ones...I don't think that fits in well with the either the Realms theology or cosmology...
but I have wondered about the "alien" Underdark races (phaerimm, sharn, aboleth, etc.) and their relationship with the Far Realm and their place in the Timeline of the Realms...I was thinking somewhere in the lines that pin-hole tears into the Far Realm in the Underdark that created the regions of Faerezz (sp?) radiation which mutates life and may have created many of the aberration races
Kalin
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 15:38:09
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Faerzress.
The Underdark radiation has its origins in the Weave. If you're going to tie the radiation to the Far Realm, you're going to need to determine how the Underdark was formed. Was it still shaped by the Weave, or by extradimensional forces from the Far Realm?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 15:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Faerzress.
The Underdark radiation has its origins in the Weave. If you're going to tie the radiation to the Far Realm, you're going to need to determine how the Underdark was formed. Was it still shaped by the Weave, or by extradimensional forces from the Far Realm?
I have never really swallowed the "created by the Weave" theory...I believe if the core of Toril is a honey-comb of tunnels and caverns (and who knows what the core is like) the Weave definitely supports the Underdark and keeps the planet from collapsing into itself
I think that the Underdark, if the planet is millions of years old like Earth, was formed by dozens of factors over the millennia such as
- Volcanic/tectonic activity
- Water activity
- Planar incursion (earth elemental traffic, bubbles of elemental air and water, Far Realm warping, gates to Pandemonium and other “tunnel” planes, etc.)
- Creature tunneling (purple worms, delvers, horgar, etc.)
- Mining/tunneling by civilizations
- Divine manipulation
I also think that faerzress radiation is more of a catch-all for “alien” radiation in the alien environment of the Underdark, probably mostly formed by damage to the Weave but also perhaps by planar radiation, great magical battles (i.e. phaerimm vs sharn) and even “echoes” of the energies unleashed with the creation of the world.
Is it me or is their more faerzress the closer you get to the core? Does that explain the “alien” Underdark beings living mostly in the Lower Underdark?
Kalin
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 21:21:23
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OK, back to the Primians
For their beginnings, I redesigned the timeline a bit, Brian R. James's "A Grand History of the Realms" compilation was a big help, especially the maps. His Atlas of the Ancient World inspired me to fix up a couple of holes in my campaign.
I’ll be posting the gritty details about (my) The Days of Thunder and the Primians in the format similar to "A Grand History of the Realms" as I am slowly bringing all of my notes together to submit to Alaundo.
In my version of ancient history “history” begins after the end of the first Epoch “The Time before Time” with an almost total ice age (The Time of Darkness and Ice). After the ice age ended (over 50,000 years before the raising of the Standing Stone) the planet recovered quickly and the evolution of sentient life peaked with hundreds of races appearing in the seas and Great Ocean, on the surface of Aber-Toril and within the Underdark. The “Ancient Past” is divided into three ages: the Days of Thunder, ending with the Tearfall (-31,000 DR), The Dawn Age, ending with the Arrival of the sun and moon elves (-24,000 DR) and The Flowering, ending with the Sundering of the planet (-17,600 DR).
I have seven major Progenitor Races, each an example of one branch of “animalia”, each kind of fauna. I feel it’s kind of cheesy to have one of each type but considering evolution and the size of Toril (surface, undersea and Underdark) it is possible. Also realize that there may have been many other “creation races” wandering around through the ages, these Progenitor Races were the strongest and most successful.
In order (first to last) of evolution, civilization and empire building these are my Creator Races, when the height of their civilization began and ended and how long did they linger until history swept them away (relatively):
The Octiphin (the Cephalopod race)
Empires: -51,000 to -38,000 DR and persisted until -35,000 DR
The Kr'Icct (the Insectile race)
Empires: -49,000 to -36,000 and persisted until -32,000 DR
The Canthodi (the Piscine race)
Empires: -44,000 to -32,000 DR and persisted until -26,000 DR
The Batrachi (the Amphibian race)
Empires: -37,000 to -31,000 and persisted until -29,000 DR
The Sarrukh (the Reptilian race)
Empires: -35,000 to -30,000 and persisted until -24,000 DR
The Primian (the Mammalian race)
Empires: -33,000 to -27,000 and persisted until -17,600 DR
The Aeree (the Avian race)
Empires: -32,000 to -29,000 and persisted until -28,000 DR
I am also mulling over the idea one more race that existed in the First Epoch; based of an ancient plant race that was introduced in Dragon Magazine (their name and the number of the magazine escape me at the moment)
Kalin
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 19:18:04
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ancient plant race: The Adu'jas
Dragon Magazine # 317 p. 22-25
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 14:50:15
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| Hm, what race do the Old Ones in NWN belong to? |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 19:25:31
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The Sarrukh.
Remember, the game appeared before Serpent Kingdoms, so the leginess of the old ones in NWN is one lore-inconsistency one would have to be a real sourpuss to complain about. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 16 Jul 2006 19:25:44 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 16:46:02
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Ok, here is the start of my alternate version of the Realsm Timeline, there isn't much Primian lore in the beginning but it will get to that...plus it expands on (my version) of the Days of Thunder. Note that I have put the timeline in a rough point form, that I have included the creation myth (that i first discussed in another thread) and that to indulge my evolution theory I have expanded the Days of Thunder by almost 20,000 years
Creation and the Primals War
( n/a years ago)
n/a DR
- One thought creates Fate, the Purpose of Existence and Time, the momentum of Fate
- Fate forges the Universe, binding it with the Balance and creating Ao to tend to the Universe and the Balance
- The Twin Sisters of Existence emerge, Kam The Bright Sister and Nire the Dark Sister
n/a DR
The universe begins to shape itself into stars, planets, comets and other celestial bodies
n/a DR
- With Ao's direction Kam turns from her sister and ignites Ataran, the Sun Ataran's light and warmth fills the universe and mortal life begins to germinate, giving birth to Ellese the Earth Mother
- Kam and Ataran's love creates Bellade, The Fair Lady
n/a DR
- Nire, in pain and rage of her sister's betrayal, flees to the darkest corner of the universe and brings forth the dark gods Karak the Dark Master, Corla the Perfect Lie, Gormauth That Which Lurks and Lorfeer the Reaper
- Nire and her spawn leave the darkness and strike and Kam, breaking the Balance
- The start of the Primals War
n/a DR
- The Primal Wars begins to unravel the universe in its chaos
- The gods Tempos and Pesh and the Elder Eternals are born from Primal Wars
n/a DR
- The Sisters mutually inflict mortal wounds and Ao enters the War to save the goddesses
- Ao ends the War and fashions the Weave to save the universe
- Ao takes the torn energies of Nike and Kam to create the goddess Myst, the Mistress of Magic and Keeper of the Weave
- Ao summons the powers to the Cynosure and gives them the Tablets of Fate and Its divine decrees
- The powers leave the universe into the Outer Planes to create their own realms
n/a DR
- The universe begins to recover from the War as the Weave heals the damage left behind, the heavenly bodies find their proper places again
- Simple life begins to thrive in the oceans and Underdark of Aber-Toril and the other planets then climbing over the planet's surface
- Aber-Toril becomes rich in plant and animal life forms and the Primal Powers turn their attention back to their universe as the first glimmer of sentient thought appear in the Forgotten Realms
- The first Fey appear in Aber-Toril
n/a DR
- The First Epoch, the Time before Time arrives and passes beyond any memory except the eldest powers
- At the rim of the Second Epoch, Aber-Toril is covered in ice and darkness with very little life from the Time before Time surviving into contemporary history
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 19 Jul 2006 18:46:55 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 19:18:37
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Any questions are welcome
The Days of Thunder and Cail'lansia
( 26,500 Years Ago )
n/a DR
- After millennia the Age of Darkness and Ice ends and Aber-Toril begins to thaw and life begins to spread across Ellian (the super-continent) once again
- The Primal Powers return their attention to the Realms
n/a DR
- In the oceans the first (modern) sentients begin to form nomadic communities
- The Primal Powers begin to grant divine magic and miracles to true worshipers
- Ao starts to allow the entry of new powers into the universe, gods that would patron the young mortal races
-57,000 DR
- The first cephalopod sentients appear in the Realms
-54,500 DR
- The first insectoid sentients appear in the Realms
-51,000 DR
- In the deep trenches of the Sea of Storms the Cephalopod Child of Ellese, the Octophin, first of the true Progenitor Races, found their first Kingdom
-50,000 DR
- The Octophin migrate into the shallows of the Goldenwater and south into the vast island chains of Bellade's Jewels
-49,500 DR
- The Octophin enter the Underdark through abyssal undersea trenches and found a city-state in an Underdark sea
- Octophin explorers discover the aboleth and the octophin city is quickly besieged and enslaved by the aboleth who start their breeding
-49,000 DR
- Along the western coast of the Ellian's sub-continent Sudra the Insectoid Child of Ellese, the Kr'Icct, second of the true Progenitor Races, construct their Hive-Empire
- The aboleth lifeshaping efforts corrupt the octophin into the morkoth and korpu aberration races
- The aboleth send their minions back into the surface ocean led by the first of the kraken also bred from the strongest octophin
-48,000 DR
- The Kr'Icct Empire of hive cities has spread across Sudra, famine is threatening, the insectoids wasting resource recklessly as their populations increases exponentially
- The Kraken Kings and their armies of morkoth conquer the last of the original Octophin Kingdoms in the deep trenches
- The first piscine sentients appear in the Realms
-47,500 DR
- Very few Octophin kingdoms remain as the Kraken Kings have pursued the Octophin into the shallowest coastlines of Bellade's Jewels
- Many Octophins flee east into the Great Ocean to escape the Krakens
-46,000 DR
- The Kr'Icct have reduced much of Sudra into a barren desert and wasteland and are now migrating northeast, along the southern shore of the Black Sea and into the western jungles of Kata'shaka
- The depredations of the Kr'Icct through Kata'shaka awaken the plant race Adu'jas, the most ancient of sentients from the Time before Time, from their millennia slumber
- The Adu'jas fail to reason with the Kr'Icct and rise up against the Kr'Icct Empire to halt their spread
-45,500 DR
- Far from the tentacles of the Kraken the refugee Octophins rebuild their civilization in the depths of the Great Ocean
- The Adu'jas call upon the Fey to open portals into Faerie to summon Titania's Host to hold back the Kr'Icct while they prepare a final solution for the hordes of insectoids
- The Kr'Icct Empire is decimated by the Adu'jas's magical pestilence that strips the mind of all reasoning and leaving only an instinctive beast
- Some Kr'Icct pray to the gods for salvation and Ataran sends a hive city into the Outer Planes where they become the Formians
-44,000 DR
- The second Octophin Empire once again starts to expand into surrounding waters, encountering a number of primitive races including an intelligent race of fish men who call themselves the Canthodi
- The Octophin bring civilization to the Canthodi through treaties and trade agreements
- With the guidance of the Octophin, in the Great Ocean the piscine Child of Ellese, the Canthodi, third of the true Progenitor Races, found their first nation of semi-nomadic tribes
-43,000 DR
- The surviving Kr'Icct refound their Empire in the great Black Desert in Sudra as a theocracy, ruled by high priests proclaiming the new piety and purity of the Kr'Icct race and the sacredness of the Earth Mother
- The Kraken Kings' scouts discover the Octophins and begin to infiltrate the Empire
- More Canthodi nations form and the race begins to migrate west across the Great Ocean
-42,500 DR
- War rages throughout the Great Ocean between the Octophin empire and the Kraken Kings and their armies of slave-minions
- The Canthodi join with their Octophin allies against the Kraken
- Civil Holy War implodes the Kr'Icct's Holy Empire into a number of splinter hive-kingdoms warring amongst themselves over racial purity
- Many Kr'Icct flee deeper into Ellian to escape religious persecution
-42,000 DR
- The Octophin and Canthodi drive the Kraken King's armies back into the Trenches of the Sea of Storms
- The Kr'Icct Civil Holy War ends and the Kr'Icct's Holy Empire has been reduced to a number of hive City-States across Sudra
- The first amphibious sentients appear in the Realms
-41,500 DR
- The Octophin/Canthodi alliance finally breaks the Kraken King's power forever, overthrowing their slave-minion armies and scattering the surviving kraken into the farthest oceans
- The Octophin Empire and the Canthodi Nations forge the Undertide Treaty where the Octophin would have the shallows along the coast of Ellian and the Canthodi will have the deep sea and ocean waters
- The Octophin priests call down the power of the gods and seal most of the undersea entrances into Underdark to prevent any further aboleth threats to the ocean peoples
- The Golden Age of the Octophin as their Empire stretches along Ellain's eastern coastline, from Bellade's Jewels, the sub-continent Harre to the Dawn Isles
-41,000 DR
- The Canthodi Nations begin to spread north and south down the spine of the Great Ocean
- The Third Kr'Icct Empire begins in the Shaar when Kr'Icct scholars discover the art of rudimentary arcane magic
- The new Kr'Icct Empire converts from the faith of the Earth Mother Ellese to the Keeper of the Weave, Myst and concern them selves with advancing the Art and less on racial purity
-40,000 DR
- The Kr'Icct hive City-States in Sudra first encounter the Kr'Icct Magocracy in Shaar, relations are tense
- The Kr'Icct Magocracy construct the first known arcane magical items in the Realms
-39,500 DR
- By a fortuitous accident the Canthodi discover how to smelt metal in undersea volcanic vents, in a few years the fish-men have tools and weapons of gold, copper and aluminum
- The Kr'Icct hive City-States attempt to rally to make for on the Kr'Icct Magocracy but inter-city hatred prevent this
- Kr'Icct Constructs begin construction on a wall that would stretch across Kata'shaka
- The first reptilian sentients appear in the Realms
-39,000 DR
- In the remote corners of the Octophin Empire dark cults of the undersea god Panzuriel the Enslaver are founded, secretly led by korpu priests serving the kraken of the Great Ocean
- The Kraken crusades start in as the Canthodi Nations begin to hunt down all kraken, morkoth, korpu and other twisted undersea denizen
- After numerous raids and assaults from the hive City-States, the completion of the Zealots Wall prevents the spread of the Kr'Icct hive city-states into the Kr'Icct Magocracy
- The Kr'Icct Magocracy commences with the exploration of the rest of Ellain
-38,500 DR
- The Throne of the Octophin Empire is corrupted by the faith of Panzuriel and the ruling class becomes cold and degenerate.
- In the outlaying settlements of the Octophin Empire disease and attacks from beasts from the depths unsettle the populace and the Empire must contend with numerous small rebellions
- The Octophin Empire becomes a dictatorship and any that speaks against the Emperor is executed and the kraken and their korpu agents now work openly in the Empire
- Octophin refugees flee into the deeper ocean into the Canthodi Nations or inland, adapting to freshwater, to escape the depraved Octophin Empire.
- As the Crusade continues some Canthodi Nations leave the Great Ocean and travels east, colonizing the Sea of Storms that the Octophin had lost millennia ago
-38,000 DR
- The Octophin Empire breaks the Undertide Treaty and Panzuriel sends the greatest of his servants, a Krakentua, to lead the Octophin armies to conquer the Canthodi
- The Canthodi despair as they discover that the Octophin have been dominated by the kraken and the Nations unite into a great host to conquer the corrupt Octophin
- The Octophin and Canthodi war across the Great Ocean, the greatest battles off the coast of Myrmidune and Harre
-37,500 DR
- A Canthodi priestess vanquishes the Krakentua with the aid of the avatar of Eadro
- The throne of the Octophin Empire is shattered and Canthodi pursue any Octophin that has been tainted by Panzuriel and the krakens
- The Kr'Icct Magocracy now stretches over most of Ellain, the insectoids teaching the lesser races the fundamentals of arcane magics and the worship of Myst
-37,000 DR
- The End of the Octophin Empire
- Those octophin refugees not sheltered by the Canthodi flee into the abyssal trenches of the Great Ocean
- A great period of peace begins in the oceans as the Canthodi Nations end the threat of Panzuriel and the kraken
- In the northeast corner of Ellain, in the great Ana Marshes The Amphibious Child of Ellese, the Batrachi, fourth of the true Progenitor Races, found their first kingdoms
- The first mammalian sentients appear in the Realms
-36,500 DR
- The Octophin race has ended, degenerating into the tako and other primitive sentient cephalopods
- Batrachi explorers begin to migrate out of the Ana Marshes, following fresh water river systems and adapting to brackish coastline systems
- The Kr'Icct Magocracy and the Batrachi Kingdoms first encounter each other resulting in peaceful but strained relations
- Trade begins with Canthodi Nations and the Batrachi Kingdoms
- The enduring peace in the oceans allow the establishment of three more Canthodi nation
-36,000 DR
- The Batrachi have colonized the Dawn Isles and are rapidly expanding south along the coastline to Bellade's Jewels and inland towards The Inner Seas
-35,500 DR
- The Kr'Icct race is suddenly and irrefutably devastated as mysteriously the Adu'jas Pestilence awakens in the Kr'Icct race and swiftly spreads across Ellain
- The Kr'Icct hive City-States are reduced to savage, primitive tribes by the Adu'jas Pestilence
- Those Kr'Icct that are not struck down by the Adu'jas Pestilence in the Kr'Icct Magocracy flee into the outer planes, never to be seen again
- The Batrachi have reached The Inner Seas and settle in the foothills of the Mountains of Jerrot
- The Batrachi are forced to begin a genocidal war against their now savage and insane Kr'Icct allies as the insectoids start to raid and slaughter Batrachi settlements
- The first avian sentients appear in the Realms
-35,000 DR
- The Kr'Icct race has ended, the survivors of the Adu'jas Pestilence becoming the descendants of the thri-kreen, aspis, hook horror and other insectile races, only the creature named today as the vermin lord retains the greatness of the lost Kr'Icct
- Along the northern shore of the Goldenwater the Sauroid Child of Ellese, the Sarrukh, fifth of the true Progenitor Races, found their first kingdom
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 20 Jul 2006 21:20:20 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:45:29
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The timeline up to this point is basically completed except I'd like to add some names to it, geographical and political names (kingdoms, cities, empires, etc.). I’m also thinking of adding some “deity” news events to it too...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2009 : 00:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
Hi, long time player and lover of the Forgotten Realms, brand new poster in Candlekeep
I posted this on another message board, someone suggested to me that I should post it here, so this is a copy/paste of my post:
"Hi, here is a Forgotten Realms question/post for those interested
In the last couple of years, with the Lost Empires of Faerun sourcebook and the Serpents Kingdoms sourcebook there has been a whole lot of revelation about the first age in the Realms, the “Days of Thunder”, the “prehistoric” age of Toril over -20,000 years before the present year in the Realms.
In the Days of Thunder there were a number of consecutive world-spanning empires of the “Creator Races” the first and greatest sentient races in the Realms (that created or de-evolved into many of the primitive humanoids and monsters in the modern age): The Sarrukh, The Batrachi, The Aearee, and The Fey. In earlier Realms canon the Dragons were a Creator Race but that appears to have been changed. Humanity is also a “Creator Race” but was not much more than Neanderthals during that time and only in the present history (in the Realms) have humans reached world-spanning potential.
Now, here is the way I see it, mostly using basic scientific theory and some general train of thought (Don’t you hate it when new canon infringes on your years-long thought-out home-brew? *l*)
The Creator Races are the true, native sentient species evolved on the planet of Aber-Toril. The has planet existed for millions of years and numerous species have naturally (Darwin’s theory) evolved into sentience...the most successful species being the orders (as in scientific orders) of the Sarrukh (reptile), the Batrachi (amphibian), the Aearee (bird) species, some of the Progenitor Races. I also maintain that what was to become humanity also had its own time in the Days of Thunder, a race I termed the Primians (human).
I do not see the Fey as a progenitor race as they are not “natural” (Darwin’s theory) but are usually accepted in RPGs as living embodiments of either nature or life...every D&D world has a fey population to a certain extent, depending on it’s youth and level of civilization. So the Fey as a progenitor is out.
I could go into the history of the Primians but that’s not the purpose of this post and this post is too long anyway so I’ll just finish by saying in my home brew Forgotten Realms campaign (that I have been building/rebuilding from 2nd to 3rd Ed., tinkering on and off with since 2001), the core of the campaign is the premise that there is a hidden, unbroken bloodline of Primian-Humanity that has existed for over 40,000, dedicated to the worship of the Sun, Moon and Nature and as the fallout of the Time of Troubles continue (ancient secrets awakening) the Primian dynasties must also reveal themselves...
So mostly this long post is for the FOR fans/players to get their thoughts on the Creator Races and how everything ancient is becoming new again in the Realms."
and if anyone is interested, I have alot more ideas about the Days of Thunder as a whole and my Primians
Kalin
If I may revive this topic a litle I would like to add my opinion.
I agree with Sarrukh (reptile), the Batrachi (amphibian) and the Aearee (bird) as creator races (they are canon after all), also I think the Fey are correctly placed. The last creator race (I stick with 5 creator races statement) in my view is some type of ancient titans (I don´t have a name for them) which created human-looking races (giants, trolls, ettins, ogres and humans). This is only sort of inteligent native creature which I haven´t seen explanation of making (correct me please if I am wrong).
Since this is my first post in Candlekeep I would like to say HI |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2009 : 18:17:14
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| Welcome, hi. My theory is actually the other way around, humans are the last creator race, of the fifth element, and titans, giants, whatever are a result of their alchemical experiments and attempts of becoming ''Supermen'', challenging gods. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 13:42:24
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A question regarding 4e.
Did the Creator Races arrive before or after the war against the gods and primordials?
And does that make dragons the "unofficial" 6th Creator Race (for creating dragonborn, drakes and other dragonlike beasts)? |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2009 : 15:33:24
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In my Forgotten Realms, humans are not a creator race because they doesn't create anything (as builder or mage) before the end of The Crown Wars some 25000 years after sarrukhs rise to civilization and 15000 after the end of The Time of the Dragons.
I keep only three creator races (fey aren't Faerûn native) like in The Savage Frontier (lizard, amphibian, and avian peoples). |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2009 : 20:46:06
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In Serpent Kingdoms, sarrukhs use troglodyte to explore Underdark. Troglodytes gives to sarrukhs informations about illithids and aboleths civilizations, and also about others deep creatures.
Is there anyone knows more about this other deep creatures and how old, and where are illithids and aboleths civilizations come from?
(I don't know if it's the good post for such question) |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 15 Nov 2009 11:24:06 |
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Creator Races and the Days of Thunder
