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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 14:17:04
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Hellow fellow scribe
Mythallar is a magical device created by Ioulaum. It transfered raw magic from the weave to the city to, amongst other things, make it float.
A Mythal, is high elven magic. It is a magical effect that affect some spells in two ways, arointed and prevailing. The former render these spells useless and the latter renders them always active.
There must be a link between the two, their name AND effect being so similar. I was certain that Netherese enclaves were powered by high eleven magic, a Mythal in fact, moreso since the first arcanist were initiated by the Earlanni elves. Then I realised that the first Mythal was Myth Drannor's, a few millenia later.
Could it be that a Mythal is in fact.. of Netherese origin? It's been a while since I read Elminster's in Myth Drannor, but IIRC Mythanthar, despite being officially the "inventor" of the Mythal, relied of some ancient theory to craft his spell, could those theories actually be from Netheril, and not from elves? What a great blow to elven ego it would be if the Mythal, pride of the High elven magic, was of Netherese, human, origin. 
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 14:20:06
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| My guess is that both of them are closely derived from the Nether Scrolls. The elves possessed the Nether Scrolls until the Netherese stole them, so they probably gained similar insights from them. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 14:30:43
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According to Lost Empires of Faerun's timeline p.97
-3533 The nether scrolls are discovered amid the ruins of Aryvandaar. The Netherese abandon the magic they learned from the Earlanni in favor of the scrolls greater power
What I understand from this is either A) The Earlanni did not have the scroll's knowledge for some reason or B) they had it but refused to use it. The magic they taught to the men of Netheril (and I believe, the same they used themselves) was "weaker" than the one from the scrolls. Were the elves aware of this? Since they had access to that knowledge in the past, why do they use a weaker from? |
Edited by - Kilvan on 17 Feb 2009 14:31:52 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 14:55:02
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My understanding of the elves teaching is that they intentionally taught the humans somewhat lesser magic. I don't know if there is anything in cannon to support that, but that was the vibe that I got while reading it. To me, it makes sense because the elves may have been worried that the humans would overpower them if they taught them more powerful magic.
As far as the elves using weaker magic themselves, I didn't really get that impression, but I could go along with it on the basis of their relationship with the weave. The elves generally try to have less impact on the world and the weave, so they might have wanted to avoid using those powerful 10th level spells because they were so taxing on the weave. I read somewhere that the elves' use of their personal energy for High magic was less taxing on the weave and so it was favored by the elves themselves and Mystra. The mythallars, on the other hand, are very much the opposite. They use almost no personal power of the caster, therefore they draw heavily on the weave. So the elves would be opposed to using mythallars, and would instead use mythals. I don't know whether High magic had been discovered at this point, but I think that regardless, the elves would not have wanted to teach the humans the secrets of the mythallar. |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:01:24
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| Mythals have been used long before myth drannor, they were used in the times of the crown wars etc (good example was waymeet). Many versions of the device has been recreated since then. it was not a creation of the humans, mythanthar created the version of the mythals used in myth drannor. the difference between the nether scroll magic and the elven magic is like that: the elven magic asks rather nicely the weave to do something like a fire ball etc. the nether scroll magic holds the weave by it balls and demands it to do the fireball. Prior to the death of the mystra 1.0, the weave was not capped so wizards could cast spell up too what ever level (12 was the highest one arcanist managed that was karsus) elven magic was capped in a way that any spell higher then 9 had to be cast using elven high magic and that can only be done with a group of wizards. after the death of mystra 1.0 the weave was changed so arcanist could not cast spells above level 9. so in way elven high magic now is stronger. even stronger the the true spell the level 10 spells wizard can cast. |
Purple you say?!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:04:11
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I don't think mythals and mythallars are anything alike, nor do I think there is any connection betwixt the two other than an unfortunate similarity between the names.
A mythallar is nothing more than a battery. It didn't make the city float -- that was another spell. It just powered that spell. The mythallar is a power source, designed to act as a source of magical energy that can be used by the inhabitants to freely power their magical (actually quasimagical) goodies.
A mythal, on the other hand, is a living field of magic, with numerous specifically designated effects designed to benefit the inhabitants of the city. You can't choose how you want to use the mythal, and you can't use the mythal as the sole power source for a magical item.
A mythallar is a D-cell battery. A mythal is a shield with a Swiss Army knife built in. They are nothing alike. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:12:50
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I think it would be rather difficult for an elven mythal to have a human origin, since humans did not have access to such magic until after a copy or two of the Nether Scrolls were found in an Aryvaandar ruin (Crown wars elven nation, remember  ).
IMHO, most likely the elves of Earlann didn't use some of the concepts within the scrolls because it reminded them too much of the historical nightmare that was the Crown wars. I seem to recall something in the Cormanthor sourcebook about elven assassins quietly killing off at least six Netherese mages looking at magic similar to the spells that created the High Moor and destroying all of their notes. Perhaps mythallars seemed minor in comparision. *shrugs* |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:14:23
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that rings truth that transcends the barriers of the ages.
Mythallar were direct taps into the weave they radiated raw Weave power that rightly spoken by wooly powered any quasi magical items even if I remember people could use it to cast some minor cantrips.
the mythals are definitely different. some like waymeet was a entity a intelligent being. other more like semi intelligence more like plant. |
Purple you say?!
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:18:47
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| The elf did steal all the scrolls and using high magic transmuted them into a tree that was guarded by some elf that i cant quite remember. the nether scrolls after while were taken from them or something destroyed cant remember but the nether scroll after being destroyed they will reform again some where else. it is known that mystra has create other replicas of the nether scrolls as payment for larloch services. he is know to own one complete set of the nether scrolls. |
Purple you say?!
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Portella
the difference between the nether scroll magic and the elven magic is like that: the elven magic asks rather nicely the weave to do something like a fire ball etc. the nether scroll magic holds the weave by it balls and demands it to do the fireball.
I like the comparison, mostly because it's exactly it.
Thanks for the quick replies, it brought some light to the point. Though I can't say that I like admitting that the name similitude is pure coincidence, like in that scroll we had speculating about the possible connection between Io and Ao a while back. I like to think that there IS a connection, it just never made it to any canon sources. Anyway, thanks again scribes. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 19:13:25
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I haven't read the entire thread, so if this was covered by anyone else, my apologies.
The Nether scrolls were put-together by the Sarrukh, with the help of the Batrachi and Aeriee(sp?). They were knowledge of 'various magical practices' being used by 'others', that these three Creator Races felt the need to record and document. While this could refer to the Giants (Rune Magic) and Dragons, it is doubtful, because of the time-frame involved. More then likely it would have had to have been contemporaries of the Sarrukh, Batarchi, and Aeriee.
There are only two other Creator Races - the Humans and the Fey. Although theoretically - and according to at least one canon short-story - the humans had a civilization at some point long before any of the record ones known (which most likely ended because of the Sundering, but all the Dragon/Elf/Giant/etc... wars could also be responsible), it is doubtful the humans were involved to any large degree (although the very beginnings of 'Weave Magic' may have come form them).
FAR MORE likely is that a lot of the magic they were witnessing - magic which amazed them enough to create the Nether Scrolls - was being performed by various 'Fey Races'. This magic would have originated with the Fey Creator Race, who either got it from Faerie (the Feywild), or created the plane of Faerie themselves (I personally lean toward this - having it start out as a mere demiplane which grew, much like Ravenloft).
Bear with me, I have a point... 
So, if a lot of what was contained in the Nether Scrolls came originally from Fey sources, and the Elves (canonically) originated on the plane of Faerie (as either another 'creation' of the Fey, or perhaps their mortal offspring), then Mythallars and Mythals may be connected in ways unknown even to folks who developed both.
Think about it - the Fey Creator race (which is hinted at were the Le'Shay) would have had a type of magic that allowed them to draw power from their environment - this fits in with folklore and what little D&D material we have on these creatures. Its not really about 'Nature Magic', so much as it is about using whatever energies available around them to power their spells and effects.
Its called 'Channeling', and it was VERY big in the DS campaign setting...
So, if these ancient Magical traditions - the ones that canon tells us were recorded on the "Golden Skins of the World Serpent" - were in-fact deriverd from 'faery magic' (at least in-part), then we have a magical basis for why the Nether Scrolls lead to the creation of the Mythallars - field-effect magics, similar to what is used by the Arcane Order and their "spell Pool" (Spellcrux), enabling persons to draw upon available energies within a specifically designated locale.
At the same time, we have the Elves and their High Magic, which canon also tells us existed before they came to Toril (the beginning of E:IoE has them doing a High-Magic Ritual in Tintageer). What that means is that Elven High Magic originated in Faerie (the Feywild), which is a plane either ruled or created by the Fey Creator Race (Le'Shay).
Both Netherease Magic and Elven High Magic have roots going far deeper then either suspect, and possibly pre-dates the creation of Abeir-Toril itself.
The Fey are everywhere... if one knows how to see' them.
Just my theory, if anyone cares.
Edit: And as for the word 'Myth' which means 'City' in Elven... thats an easy one. Ancient High-Elven (that language that High-Magic is in - I forget the name ATM) came originally from Faerie as well. 'High-Elven' back then would probably be the equivalent of 'Low-Fey' - the ruling elite of the plane of Faerie some 30,000+ years ago. The word 'Myth' could have slowly changed from the original meaning of the word - which could have been something like 'area' in the Fey language. Hence, 'Myth'-based Magic would be 'area-effect' magic. The Elves - being the 'second-class' citizens of Faerie back then would have lived in areas designated for their use - Elven Myths. To the Fey, it would have been the equivalent of 'reservations', or even 'ghettoes' for the Elves of the Feywild.
So while the Fey would equate 'Myth' with a designated area, and use the term in front of the name of such areas (like we used the word 'Heights' in much the same way), its easy to see how the Elves could have interpretted it differently, and in the Elven Vernacular, it would have simply meant 'settlement', and eventually, after many, MANY centuries, 'City'. Words do evolve along lines like this, and this could be why the word 'Myth' appears in both Mythals and Mythallars - it means more then just a city - it means a very specific area.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2009 04:37:29 |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 20:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Edit: And as for the word 'Myth' which means 'City' in Elven... thats an easy one. Ancient High-Elven (that language that High-Magic is in - I forget the name ATM) came originally from Faerie as well.
That'd be Seldruin, for those keeping score with the home game.  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 20:20:41
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Great post Markustay!
That's why I love Candlekeep, I knew someone would know something. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 22:47:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A mythallar is a D-cell battery.
Indeed. That's exactly what those 'personal' mythallars featured in one of the tales in the short story anthology Realms of the Arcane, reminded me of.
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 23:00:02
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-So...Markus what you are saying is that Myth Drannor was/is a Ghetto? So the Elves were second class citizens in Faerie?  No wonder why the Sun Elves have such a complex about themselves. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 05:01:56
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Welllll... some of my theories surrounding the Fey and the Elves - which I have discussed at great length at WotC and occasionaly here - have to do with their relationship. It appears the Elves are a creation of some-sort of the Fey, since they have a mutual home-in-common (Faerie/Feywild), and it is more then likely that relationship is more 'familial' then we have with some of the other "Creators".
The most-likely scenario is that the Fey Creator Race - who are hinted at being the Le'Shay - either originated on Faerie, or moved there from Toril at some point in the DISTANT past (after finding or creating that plane). If we take the lore of the Black Diamond into account (core canon), it says the Fey were forced from their original home and moved to their current one - which sounds a lot to me like the Fey left Toril for Faerie. I think - and this is merely my own theory mind you - that the Elves are the mortal children of the immortal Fey. Somehow, by losing their connection to their original homeland, they also lost their immortality, and their longevity lessens with each successive generation (which is how we finally arrived at the 4e age-structure - the Elves have been losing 'life' all along).
So the Elves are Fey, in a way, but also so much 'less' then them, being mere mortals, albeit long-lived ones. This also fits in with the Drow - the shortest-lived of all Elves, and the ones furthest removed from their Fey heritage.
So after the Le'Shay literally tore-off a piece of Toril to create their home in Faerie, all successive generations were born Elves (except for very rare exceptions, as Amlaruil's daughter Ilyrana was - a 'throwback' to an earlier time) - they doomed ther own children by fleeing Realmspace and breaking the bounds they had with the world.
And then later seeded that world with those children.
All hombrew lore, mind you, to explain-away the obvious-but-never-covered-in-canon connection beteen the Elves and the Fey.
And yes... the Fey were not so different then their offspring... haughty, and 'superior' to all other races... it would be just like the Fey to "look down upon" the Elves - their 'damaged' offspring. Queen Titania and King Oberon would still love these flawed children, but would have them live elsewhere, so as not to remind the Fey of their own folly and doom.
They would have been sent to live in their own realms - called 'Myths - in Faerie; the Isle of Tintageer being one of those. I used the words 'gettoes' or 'reservations' just to convey my meaning, but you could also look at them as sort-of 'leper colonies' for the Fey - places where the faeires sickened by 'mortality' would go to live and die. Fey like to spend eternity playing and dancing and just having a good time, and their is no place for 'death' in their culture.
The Elves themselves then mirror the very culture that spawned them, and history repeats itself - they look down upon others with pity and derision, and it is that haugtiness and separatism which always leads to problems for that race, over and over again. In psychological terms, they are merely projecting their own in-born feelings of inadequacy, which they are no longer even aware of - it has become 'instinctive' to act in such a manner.
Once again, I would just like to reiterate that this is 98% conjecture, based on little to no canon (because, unfortunately, there isn't any). I don't want anyone to think this is anything more then my own personal hombrew take on the matter. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2009 17:37:11 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 12:27:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And yes... the Fey were not so different then their offspring... haughty, and 'superior' to all other races... it would be just like the Fey to "look down upon" the Elves - their 'damaged' offspring. Queen Titania and King Oberon would still love these flawed children, but would have them live elsewhere, so as not to remind the Fey of their own folly and doom.
One of my PC sun Elf "loves" his elves cousins (not the drows of course, but the Wood, Star, Wild and Moon), but just as one would "love" his retarded cousin. He wishes them no ill, and considers them the second "best race", but he does not consider them equals. Of course, to keep a good relationship with them, he tries to hide that feeling as much as possible. I think it illustrate well the feeling the Fey might have regarding the elves. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 17:42:14
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Right.
The mistake even the 'nice' Elves make is that they pity others; sometimes pity is even more insulting then outright hatred.
Oh... and one last add... before they left the Realms of mortals for the Feywild, the Le'Shay's greatest Sorceress wove the ULTIMATE myth-based piece of magic... one that encompassed ALL of Realmspace!
Today, we call it the Weave. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2009 : 03:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't read the entire thread, so if this was covered by anyone else, my apologies.
The Nether scrolls were put-together by the Sarrukh, with the help of the Batrachi and Aeriee(sp?). They were knowledge of 'various magical practices' being used by 'others', that these three Creator Races felt the need to record and document. While this could refer to the Giants (Rune Magic) and Dragons, it is doubtful, because of the time-frame involved. More then likely it would have had to have been contemporaries of the Sarrukh, Batarchi, and Aeriee.
There are only two other Creator Races - the Humans and the Fey. Although theoretically - and according to at least one canon short-story - the humans had a civilization at some point long before any of the record ones known (which most likely ended because of the Sundering, but all the Dragon/Elf/Giant/etc... wars could also be responsible), it is doubtful the humans were involved to any large degree (although the very beginnings of 'Weave Magic' may have come form them).
Only source that I have on this matter (Serpent Kingdoms) says: quote:
"The Nether Scrolls were results of sarrukh efforts to compile, deconstruct, and extrapolate the magic gleaned from the savages that inhabited most of the Faerun during the early of the sarrukh empires."
So I think it means humans but from diferent perspective (as of sarrukh´s) it could mean elves in the bushes |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2010 : 08:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right.
The mistake even the 'nice' Elves make is that they pity others; sometimes pity is even more insulting then outright hatred.
Oh... and one last add... before they left the Realms of mortals for the Feywild, the Le'Shay's greatest Sorceress wove the ULTIMATE myth-based piece of magic... one that encompassed ALL of Realmspace!
Today, we call it the Weave.
Interesting... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Mythal and Mythallar
