| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 09:06:31
|
Disclaimer - Mods if this belongs in a different forum, please move it. Although it refers to the Grand History of the Realms product, I think it is separate enough with the questions asked, to stay separate.
While recently perusing my copy of Grand History of the Realms, I was reminded of a few questions I have always wondered about. I did a quick Search and was unable to find anything directly relating to my questions, but if there is a thread that I missed, please point me in the right direction 
Ok here are my questions:
1. When did various humanoid creatures exist in the Realms? Right at the start of the book there is this quote - The Days of Thunder, p5
“Nor did the savage people – goblins, orcs, ogres and their kin – inhabit the land”
For example we find out about green elves and moon/sun elves. (-27000DR, p8
The Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril.)
But there is an entry about gnolls coming into conflict. (-30400DR, p8
“In a conflict between the gnolls of Urganarash and the rookery of Kookrui-Shara …”)
Where did the gnolls come from?
2. Perhaps related to the first question – is there a list of creatures created by the different creator races?
And secondary to this question - did Mr. Greenwood always have the creator races, or were these tacked on at a later point in time by another designer?
3. When did orcs first come to the Realms? Where they created or were they gated in?
The first reference I can find is - -24400DR, p10
“The elf city of Occidian is sacked by a horde of orcs … “
So as the topic says, what is the origin for most of the monstrous humanoids? Which ones were gated in, which were created?
TIA
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 18:26:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
Disclaimer - Mods if this belongs in a different forum, please move it. Although it refers to the Grand History of the Realms product, I think it is separate enough with the questions asked, to stay separate.
While recently perusing my copy of Grand History of the Realms, I was reminded of a few questions I have always wondered about. I did a quick Search and was unable to find anything directly relating to my questions, but if there is a thread that I missed, please point me in the right direction You might want to ask Brian R. James that on his "Ask" thread.
Ok here are my questions:
1. When did various humanoid creatures exist in the Realms? Right at the start of the book there is this quote - The Days of Thunder, p5
“Nor did the savage people – goblins, orcs, ogres and their kin – inhabit the land”
For example we find out about green elves and moon/sun elves. (-27000DR, p8
The Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril.)
But there is an entry about gnolls coming into conflict. (-30400DR, p8
“In a conflict between the gnolls of Urganarash and the rookery of Kookrui-Shara …”)
Where did the gnolls come from?
2. Perhaps related to the first question – is there a list of creatures created by the different creator races?
And secondary to this question - did Mr. Greenwood always have the creator races, or were these tacked on at a later point in time by another designer?
3. When did orcs first come to the Realms? Where they created or were they gated in?
The first reference I can find is - -24400DR, p10
“The elf city of Occidian is sacked by a horde of orcs … “
So as the topic says, what is the origin for most of the monstrous humanoids? Which ones were gated in, which were created?
TIA
I am interested in this as well. I wonder if Brian R. James could answer it in his "Ask" scroll. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
Edited by - Hawkins on 22 Oct 2007 18:51:49 |
 |
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 22:06:13
|
Serpent Kingdoms provides A LOT of information on created races, and Elaine Cunningham has written a story for one of the anthologies (Realms of Magic? Realms of the Arcane?) describing (one version) of the creation of the Sahaugin. Her Evermeet novel describes in detail (one version) of the emmigration of the "high" elven races to Toril.
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 22:22:12
|
| I still need to get a hold of a copy of Serpent Kingdoms. I had ordered one from Half.com, but the seller did something stupid, and my order got canceled. I have been looking for a copy since. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 00:43:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
...and Elaine Cunningham has written a story for one of the anthologies (Realms of Magic? Realms of the Arcane?) describing (one version) of the creation of the Sahaugin.
'Twas "Secrets of Blood, Spirits of the Sea" from the Best of Elaine Cunningham -- which was originally printed in Realms of the Arcane. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:10:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
So as the topic says, what is the origin for most of the monstrous humanoids? Which ones were gated in, which were created?
Excellent questions Maransreth. I do not believe that there are official answers in current lore. But you're not alone in wanting to know the origin of Toril's many species. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 01:23:24
|
If we go by current lore, we know that orcs were brought to Faerun, at one point, during the Orc Gate Wars against the Mulan peoples and their gods.
In Unapproachable East, there is information about what happened to these particular orcs (their descendants are the Grey Orcs).
I'd be willing to say that most species that inhabit the Realms to day are immigrant races.
EDIT: on a related Topic...what ever happened with the Neo-Orogs of Thay? I really liked the idea of them (and their creation was inspiration for my own Trogor race) being specially bred shock troops. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 24 Oct 2007 01:25:53 |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 03:41:10
|
| Actually, I believe that only Grey Orcs were brought over during the Orcgate Wars. I think the normal variety of orcs have been there since before the Orcgate Wars. I do not remember which book(s) had it though. I think maybe Races of Faerun. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 03:51:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Actually, I believe that only Grey Orcs were brought over during the Orcgate Wars. I think the normal variety of orcs have been there since before the Orcgate Wars. I do not remember which book(s) had it though. I think maybe Races of Faerun.
Yeah, that is what I was saying...they were brought in at that time (the Grey Orcs).
There were earlier mentions of orcs, but I'm only referring to the reference of Grey Orcs (which came from an "orc world") to give an example of how I think most all races are imports to the FR. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 07:48:29
|
We know that a lot of the humanoid races migrated to Toril from other worlds. However, some races are native to Toril, and either evolved there or were created by gods and thus "born" on Toril, so to speak.
While there were 5 (or 6 if you count Dragons)"creator races", these races were not necessarily the only native races to Toril. The distinguishing characteristic of the creator races was that they were not only native but also mighty and wielded great magics, and so deemed worthy by elven scholars to bear the title.
But lesser races might also have evolved on Toril--races that were not so mighty as to be included in the "creator races" club.
The fact that gnolls were around in -30,400 DR could indicate that gnolls may have evolved on Toril and are a native species.
Alternatively they could still be interlopers if they simply migrated to Toril at an earlier date.
If they were interlopers, rather than natives, there are several plausible methods for their arrival in Faerûn:
1) They could have been brought in or encouraged to travel there by Yeenoghu to create a cult for him and gain him access within the Realms.
2) They could have wandered in with Gorelik as part of a cross-planar hunting party.
3) They could have been brought in from other worlds as slaves for the Sarrukh or the Batrachi.
4) They could have wandered in on their own through portals created by the Sarrukh or Batrachi.
5) They could have wandered through a freak planar rift.
6) They could have been brought in by Spelljammers, perhaps escaped slaves from an Illithid vessel or a ship of the Mercane.
There are many different possibilities for gnoll origins on Faerûn, but native or not, the only thing we can say for certain, is that they were definitely present and well established in the Shaar by -30,400 DR. |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 17:42:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
While there were 5 (or 6 if you count Dragons)"creator races", these races were not necessarily the only native races to Toril.
Would someone mind actually naming the six creator races? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 19:53:18
|
Aearee, Sarrukh, LeShay, Batrachi, Human.
Dragons are not a creator race. Eric Boyd admitted he added that one by mistake. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 19:57:31
|
| Thanks Brian! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 12:43:57
|
Thanks to all for the replies so far. Have been away for work and had little internet access.
I knew Serpent Kingdoms would have a bit of info in there, but it is packed away atm, due to having moved into a new house in the last week.
The story of the sahaugin is one I already knew. But on a side Elaine Cunningham note, can anyone remember in Evermeet the novel when Araushnee (sp?)/Lloth talked to Gruumsh on Toril shortly before Gruumsh killed Herne? Reason I ask is again my copy is packed away, and I am trying to remember if this conversation happened before she brought the dark alliance against the elven gods and was then cast down, or whether it happened afterwards.
The reason is that this would be any earlier than indicated mention of orcs on Toril.
Does anyone know if the creator races were Ed's idea? or someone elses? Also what is the first mention of the creator races? I think there was mention of them in one of the books you could get in the Baldur's Gate game, but again memory is a bit fuzzy on that. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 15:53:50
|
| Remember that the events involving the gods in the Evermeet novel may not be absolutely factual. It's impossible to record what the gods did in their godly Realms tens of thousands of years ago. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 05:34:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
But on a side Elaine Cunningham note, can anyone remember in Evermeet the novel when Araushnee (sp?)/Lloth talked to Gruumsh on Toril shortly before Gruumsh killed Herne? Reason I ask is again my copy is packed away, and I am trying to remember if this conversation happened before she brought the dark alliance against the elven gods and was then cast down, or whether it happened afterwards.
The reason is that this would be any earlier than indicated mention of orcs on Toril.
In Evermeet, the conversation took place before Araushnee forged the Dark Aliance, because the latter was her plan B after the Gruumsh-plot had failed. But the conversation did not take place on Toril, but in Arvandor. On Toril Araushnee met Malar shortly after he had killed Herne. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 16:02:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
Thanks to all for the replies so far. Have been away for work and had little internet access.
I knew Serpent Kingdoms would have a bit of info in there, but it is packed away atm, due to having moved into a new house in the last week.
The story of the sahaugin is one I already knew. But on a side Elaine Cunningham note, can anyone remember in Evermeet the novel when Araushnee (sp?)/Lloth talked to Gruumsh on Toril shortly before Gruumsh killed Herne? Reason I ask is again my copy is packed away, and I am trying to remember if this conversation happened before she brought the dark alliance against the elven gods and was then cast down, or whether it happened afterwards.
The reason is that this would be any earlier than indicated mention of orcs on Toril.
Does anyone know if the creator races were Ed's idea? or someone elses? Also what is the first mention of the creator races? I think there was mention of them in one of the books you could get in the Baldur's Gate game, but again memory is a bit fuzzy on that.
The first mention of the creator races came in FR5 Savage Frontier. Be aware that the rule of new lore trumps old when reading through it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 19:23:45
|
From "Powers and Pantheons"
Waves of migration into Toril began:
Dwarves, treants, elves, and illithids (in that order) appeared in Faerûn.
Halflings, gnomes, and merfolks then appeared.
Giantkin, titans, and tritons were then seen in Faerûn for the first time.
It is also thought that the sharn and phaerimm appeared in the Realms at about this time.
Much later, goblinkin (orcs, hobgoblins, and their lesser kin such as kobolds and goblins).
A few centuries later, the first beholders, lesser dragon races, leucrotta, centaurs, satyrs, wemics.
Pegasi and humanlike winged races entered the Realms in number.
A few remark (perhaps incorrect, then correct me):
- illithids came from Glyth c. -11,000 but sarrukhs know them.
- sarrukhs know phaerimm but sharn appeared c.-10500 with the Dark Disaster.
- giantkin appeared before the elves during the batrachi area.
- kobolds are created by dragons.
- beholder came from H'Catha c. -11,000
- centaurs think they were always present on Toril.
- aarakocras were created by aearee.
- aboleth are also mentioned to be known by sarrukhs.
Does anyone know more or where I can find new stuff?
|
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 22 Nov 2009 19:32:56 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2009 : 00:39:22
|
In the Shining South sourcebook and previous lore it says the Loxo arrived in Faerûn by spelljammer.
I've always been be curious to know of their homeworld. Sharmra Lornra may know -- if you can survive long enough to ask her.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2009 : 05:52:13
|
Aarakocra were not actually created by the Aearee, but rather are descended from them. They don't look that much different than the Aearee would have back in the day.
The name Aarakocra appears to be a corruption of the name of the Western Flock of Aearee, called the Aearee-Krocaa, who revered the god Krocaa, the all-father of the Aearee pantheon.
The Aearee-Krocaa tended to look more like eagles, hawks and falcons in their features and coloring. Whereas the Aearee of Northern Faerûn, the Aearee-Syran, had features more like parots and reflected the many colors of the dawn sun.
The Aearee were hunted to near extinction with the advent of dragons in Faerûn. In fact, they were entirely extinct in Faerûn proper. However many flocks escaped to Anchorome, Maztica, and parts west. Some also fled to the planet Coliar where they thrive to this day.
Those Aearee that survived fell into barbarism. They are known today as the Aarakockra. Aarakocra recolonized Faerûn from western lands about a thousand years ago.
The Aarakocra descendants of the Aearee appear to have interbred and have features of both the Aearee-Krocaa and the Aearee-Syran.
The Aearee of the South had the features of jays and crows with the dark coloring of twilight--blues and blacks and browns. They are the forebears of the Kenku and the Dire Corbies, although, unlike their descendants the Southern Aearee had the power of flight. Legends say that the Kenku and Dire Corbies lost the ability to fly when they began to worship Pazriel, also known as the demon lord Pazuzu, who corrupted them and took their flight in sacrifice for the dark powers he gave to them.
The Aearee of the South, often called Sharans after their home-nest of Shara in the Osraun mountain range, survived the dragon onslaught by fleeing deep into the underdark. Some also fled east to Kara-Tur. The underdark Sharans continued to worship Pazriel. Warped and twisted by the worship of Pazriel and the harsh environment of the underdark, they eventually became the Dire Corbies.
Those that fled to Kara-Tur spurned Pazriel and returned to the worship of their traditional patron Quorlinn, under whose guidance they fared much better. Although the kenku still have a reputation to this day as sneaks and thieves, emulating the characteristics of their trickster god Quorlinn... or does he embody the characteristics of his people? |
|
|
|
Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2009 : 19:50:38
|
Thanks a lot for this awesome lore.  |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
|
|
|
Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 15:28:29
|
"Cloakers have lived in the Underdark since the earliest recorded dwarf explorations." (DDGTTU)
"The first dwarf settlements appear in the great mountain range known as the Yehimal c. -16,000." (TGHOTR) |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2010 : 08:36:25
|
| Someone was asking about the Creator Races on the Wizards Forums. The Search Feature is my friend. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
On the Origin of Species
