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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  06:04:47  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

simping


Oh for f...

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1796 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  06:26:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

simping


Oh for f...



You can cringe all what you want, but in your heart you know that was the truth.

And yeah, I've re-read that part. Kelemvor had deemed Adon both, a Faithless and a False. He was just thinking for which one Adon had to be punished. Adon was saved because he was a witness in Cyric's trial, not because Kelemvor wanted to spare him. And he already had been branded Faithless, even in his madness.

As for the novel, it makes it like everyone in Faerûn knew about the Wall, as Kel states he had to judge Adon or "half Faerûn will.go mad". That goes against what Ed said about the Wall being just a boogeyman tale.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Nov 2020 06:27:23
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

756 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  12:09:29  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

As for the novel, it makes it like everyone in Faerûn knew about the Wall, as Kel states he had to judge Adon or "half Faerûn will.go mad". That goes against what Ed said about the Wall being just a boogeyman tale.



Yeah because "half of Faerun" was up to speed on the supernatural court judging a poor sod's soul. This is the same novel (or novel series) were the author trashes whatever previous concept of Faerunian afterlife there was in print with Kel organising book clubs for "the wise and philosophers" and gym competitions for "the brave and strong" and basically keeping everyone in the Fugue, completely disregarding the other gods.

Looks like someone didn't know half-s**t about how things went in the Realms and improvised base on their own idea heavily based on one-afterlife-fits-all.

It's astounding how when things like this happen, instead of realising it was a massive author mistake, people cling to it and use it as a base to try and revolutionise the rest of the Realms.

I don't see campaigns wanting to rewrite rules so liches can be shotted with lighting bolt. I don't see petitions to have kinetic barrier and psionics be the end all be all of powergaming. Why every time random authors write s**t about the gods people get fully behind their carriage and want to use it to rewrite the Realms?

When they misrepresented and trashed Eilistraee people were up in arms, not saying "Hey there is this novel here so it MUST be this way". Why is all the other, more in depth information on the rest of the pantheon not held in the same regard?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  12:38:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

As for the novel, it makes it like everyone in Faerûn knew about the Wall, as Kel states he had to judge Adon or "half Faerûn will.go mad". That goes against what Ed said about the Wall being just a boogeyman tale.



Yeah because "half of Faerun" was up to speed on the supernatural court judging a poor sod's soul. This is the same novel (or novel series) were the author trashes whatever previous concept of Faerunian afterlife there was in print with Kel organising book clubs for "the wise and philosophers" and gym competitions for "the brave and strong" and basically keeping everyone in the Fugue, completely disregarding the other gods.

Looks like someone didn't know half-s**t about how things went in the Realms and improvised base on their own idea heavily based on one-afterlife-fits-all.

It's astounding how when things like this happen, instead of realising it was a massive author mistake, people cling to it and use it as a base to try and revolutionise the rest of the Realms.

I don't see campaigns wanting to rewrite rules so liches can be shotted with lighting bolt. I don't see petitions to have kinetic barrier and psionics be the end all be all of powergaming. Why every time random authors write s**t about the gods people get fully behind their carriage and want to use it to rewrite the Realms?

When they misrepresented and trashed Eilistraee people were up in arms, not saying "Hey there is this novel here so it MUST be this way". Why is all the other, more in depth information on the rest of the pantheon not held in the same regard?



That's been my issue with people complaining about Mystra favoring good spellcasters -- it was a plot point in one novel, it was never anywhere but in that one novel, and she was slapped down for it, in that one novel. Yet people still point to that as proof that she's such a big problem.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1796 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  14:28:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, is a published product, so it's hard not mention it. If people accepts RAS stuff as a holy gospel of the Realms (and the guy do change stuff and murders lore, as well), then I feel is biased to ignore Denning's stuff.

I also believe it's ridiculous (that's why I mentioned it), but hey, I'm not the one trying to justify the Wall... or that novel.

As for Mystra, is more complicated than that, but this is not the topic for it.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  19:59:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Ooriginally poosted by Wooooly Rooooooopert

It's like talking about shark attacks: Yeah, the idea of shark attacks scares a lot of people -- but the number of people actually attacked by sharks is very small. Saying that doesn't mean shark attacks aren't serious, it's just saying that a lot of people who are worried about it are not anywhere close to being in danger of it happening.

Shark attacks are only scary at low levels. Sharks (and landsharks) don't have many HD and their special attacks can be countered.

What adventurers really need to be worried about is taking a career-ending arrow to the knee.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Nov 2020 20:00:00
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9745 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  21:15:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's a difference between saying "it's not the thing it's made out to be" and saying "it's not that bad".

It's like talking about shark attacks: Yeah, the idea of shark attacks scares a lot of people -- but the number of people actually attacked by sharks is very small. Saying that doesn't mean shark attacks aren't serious, it's just saying that a lot of people who are worried about it are not anywhere close to being in danger of it happening.



Candygram... Candygram for Wooly...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_NS2H55dxI&list=PLONlV9FPbFJVtO2GsynVnFw5ogp8_Cb-2&index=99


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

589 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  23:50:15  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders just might not be going scott free. Some folks wait and wait for their god to come along and bring them to their afterlife. Meanwhile there are devils and such who are looking to steal souls before the gods claim them. It just might be something wherein those who blasphemed against their patron can't get picked up by their deity and they leave them waiting until they finally get worn down by some devil, etc... Of course, this isn't canon, but SOMEONE goes with the devils. We just aren't given the "rules" for what happens other than a high level overview.

So, I guess what I'm saying is... if you don't conform well enough to your patron, maybe there are some issues as a result... maybe even something outside the deity's hands. Maybe they can't "change" you into a proper petitioner for their realm, and thus your soul is tainted and eventually it will deteriorate into a larvae or somesuch (i.e. you were such a worm in life, not following your own religion that you chose, that you begin to resemble a worm in the afterlife). Just an idea. May need fleshing out.
Those are the false-
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  00:28:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rejecting the gods and goddesses, rejecting their teachings, refusing to accept their religion is hardly the same thing as being a worthless worm.

This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.

This conscious atheism can also lead into the hands of celestials. It can sometimes produce newly-ascended deities and powers.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) reward such epic achievements. The Wall is simply an unnecessary obstacle imposed by cowardly gods.

[/Ayrik]
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2551 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  03:27:18  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.



The alternatives (Asmodeus) aren't really any better. It's still punishment, after all, whether it's the Wall or something else.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  11:48:34  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.



But they are bound to exist. Either they are Abeirans that got transported to Toril either during the Spellplague or the Second Sundering



Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

people like the Athar (who believe gods doesn't exist; those things are just powerful creatures, not worthy of worship)


Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  12:27:37  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.



The alternatives (Asmodeus) aren't really any better. It's still punishment, after all, whether it's the Wall or something else.



The alternatives (Asmodeus or should we really say Ahriman) are indeed not any better. They are worse. As noted by other scribes, the deities can be creeps and generally do not care about mortals' welfare. For those who entertain the story of the Twin Serpents of Law, the Wall makes perfect logic as a "scorched-earth" measure to make sure Ahriman stays buried deep within the Serpent's Coil down in Nessus. Civilizations such as Netheril or Imaskar would have produced a banquet of faithless souls for Ahriman.

Deities probably will never admit to mortals they share a strong deep streak of self-preservation, even the "good" deities. If Ahriman escapes the Hells and reclaims his original power, he destabilizes the planes themselves. Very bad news for any deity or mortal. If atheist or should I say anti-theist souls get stuffed into the Wall to stop multiplanar annihilation, too bad for those souls. To a deity, it is such a paltry price to pay. Mortals would get annihilated anyway if Ahriman breaks free.

This does not put "good" deities in a rosy light, and is part of the argument Sigil's planar factions such as the Athar use against worshipping the gods, regardless of alignment or portfolio. Keep in mind the factions - including the Athar - traveled to and from Toril quite regularly. The actions of the avatars during ToT further tarnished the pantheon's collective reputation. These developments also suit Ahriman's goal quite nicely.

I can easily figure Jergal getting in Kelemvor's ear right after the latter's ascension. "Whatever you do, make sure no Faithless souls ever avoid the Wall. Every single deity in the pantheon, and I mean every deity, is counting on you. All our lives are on the line. Oh, by the way, please never discuss this matter outside the pantheon. Trust me."

Edited by - Delnyn on 18 Nov 2020 12:32:49
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

589 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  14:31:05  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


This conscious atheism can lead one into the hands of fiends. It can sometimes produce dangerously Karsus-like arrogance.
The D&D cosmos already has mechanisms to (eternally) punish such erroneous choices. The Wall is simply an abusive cruelty imposed by sadistic gods.



The alternatives (Asmodeus) aren't really any better. It's still punishment, after all, whether it's the Wall or something else.



The alternatives (Asmodeus or should we really say Ahriman) are indeed not any better. They are worse. As noted by other scribes, the deities can be creeps and generally do not care about mortals' welfare. For those who entertain the story of the Twin Serpents of Law, the Wall makes perfect logic as a "scorched-earth" measure to make sure Ahriman stays buried deep within the Serpent's Coil down in Nessus. Civilizations such as Netheril or Imaskar would have produced a banquet of faithless souls for Ahriman.

Deities probably will never admit to mortals they share a strong deep streak of self-preservation, even the "good" deities. If Ahriman escapes the Hells and reclaims his original power, he destabilizes the planes themselves. Very bad news for any deity or mortal. If atheist or should I say anti-theist souls get stuffed into the Wall to stop multiplanar annihilation, too bad for those souls. To a deity, it is such a paltry price to pay. Mortals would get annihilated anyway if Ahriman breaks free.

This does not put "good" deities in a rosy light, and is part of the argument Sigil's planar factions such as the Athar use against worshipping the gods, regardless of alignment or portfolio. Keep in mind the factions - including the Athar - traveled to and from Toril quite regularly. The actions of the avatars during ToT further tarnished the pantheon's collective reputation. These developments also suit Ahriman's goal quite nicely.

I can easily figure Jergal getting in Kelemvor's ear right after the latter's ascension. "Whatever you do, make sure no Faithless souls ever avoid the Wall. Every single deity in the pantheon, and I mean every deity, is counting on you. All our lives are on the line. Oh, by the way, please never discuss this matter outside the pantheon. Trust me."

Seems a little like overkill for such a backwater world as Toril. Ahriman (who even GtH just stated to be a greater deity, so surely something other greater deities could deal with) would eat from all over the multiverse.

One single prime world more or less shouldn't matter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34169 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  14:37:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.



They've undone the changes, but the changes still happened.

The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them. Retconning the Spellplague would not only be admitting to making a mistake, it would also anger those who liked it.

So instead, they're undoing the changes but keeping things as vague as possible, so they don't alienate anyone by making anything definitive.

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.



I doubt we'll see Planescape again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever planar structure we have this week.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  15:49:01  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.



They've undone the changes, but the changes still happened.

The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them. Retconning the Spellplague would not only be admitting to making a mistake, it would also anger those who liked it.

So instead, they're undoing the changes but keeping things as vague as possible, so they don't alienate anyone by making anything definitive.


That's kind of like sweeping crumbs under a tablecloth...pebble-sized crumbs; both are technically out of sight yet still very much visible. Maybe those alterations will be diluted enough come 6th Edition?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.



I doubt we'll see Planescape again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever planar structure we have this week.



Terrible. They're sitting on a gold mine but they keep insisting on more iron pyrite. At this rate, I'll have to start drawing pentagrams if I want it along with Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur to be resurrected from the ashes.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1796 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  15:54:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.



The undid most of the changes of 4e, but they didn't ignore them. The changes were reversed by a narrative event known as the Second Sundering. Which means those events are still canon and recognized as "recent history".

And they left some 4e stuff left, as it has became popular enough to win its place in Faerûn (such as the dragonborn realm of Tymanther).

So yes, some stuff brought by Spellplague is still relevant for 5e.

quote:
Originally posted by Azar



Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.



They use a lot of stuff from Planescape in current published books, so it's still relevant. I don't know if they plan to something with it, tho. The promised they are going to bring back some classic settings next year, tho. Planescape has high chances of being one of these.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  20:39:42  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them.
...
I doubt we'll see [legacy thing] again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever [contrived new] structure we have this week.

WotC's people don't care about the game and setting I care about. So I don't care about the game and setting they care about. Retcons don't need to be retconned away and things don't need undoing if they never even happened in the first place. I just stick with AD&D, the ever-changing demands of WotC's "current design staff" aren't even relevant.

For me (and my grognard brethren) it's really just that simple. No little cabal of arrogant wizards from some faraway coast are ever going to be able to topple Gygax's Great Wheel.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2020 20:44:56
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  23:01:30  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Seems a little like overkill for such a backwater world as Toril. Ahriman (who even GtH just stated to be a greater deity, so surely something other greater deities could deal with) would eat from all over the multiverse.

One single prime world more or less shouldn't matter



If only it were that simple.

First, I do not foresee a straightup kick-in-the-doors and charge in swords-a-swinging frontal assault on Ahriman. Ahriman and Jazirian (now dead in Realmspace AFAIK) are different from other deities because they do not require worship and do not grant spells to mortals. Therefore, Ahriman lies outside Ao's strictures. That by itself shouts "Proceed With Caution" in bold neon letters.

He as shown through his avatar Asmodeus is extremely good at long range planning and hiding secrets. The 4E screed about Asmodeus being Pazuzu's catspaw sounds like yet another tall tale. I doubt even greater deities want any smoke with Ahriman for fear of not knowing what other powers or tricks he may have. Also, the Faerunian pantheon is probably tied up anyway with the Pact Primeval. The pantheon certainly does not want demons running amok on Toril or in their own domains.

Second, Ahriman does not consume Faithless souls as its own end. He does so to heal his broken body enough so he can leave Baator.
His true goal is to reclaim the power he used to create and maintain the Outer Planes. And grab Jazirian's power while he has the opportunity. Letting him consume Faithless souls on other worlds does not get Toril off the hook. GtH lists Ahriman as a greater deity even after creating the Outer Planes and taking a gazillion d6 falling damage. If he heals himself and takes back his old power, he basically reverts to a demiurge completely capable of killing pantheons.

In summary, the Wall smacks of desparate fear on the part of the Faerunian pantheon. I would not be surprised if multispheric powers such as Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Oghma, the Mordinsamman, the Seldarine, etc. spread the word across various Prime Material crystal spheres to do their part in keeping Ahriman penned up. The Wall just happens to be the tactic the Faerunian pantheon chose.

Edited by - Delnyn on 18 Nov 2020 23:18:05
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7311 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  23:26:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tall tales about Asmodeus (whom you call Ahriman) have always abounded. Prince of Evil. Lord of Lies. It's unwise to believe anything said about him, especially when comparing the Lord of the Nine Hells (who commands the obedience of every devil in the entire D&D cosmos, who has destroyed gods) vs Pazuzu (a lofty little archfiend who merely lords over the shallowest layer of the Abyss).

But the power Asmodeus commands across the cosmos differs in scope from the power Asmodeus commands across the Realms. An arena where he must (in theory) abide by Ao's rules just like all the other godlings, where he is technically inferior (and subordinate?) to certain other powers, where he must scrabble through mortal dirt to claim his share of their souls.

Toril might be one single "Backwater" Prime among countless others. It seems likely that Asmodeus (or his aspect/avatar) would not confine his attentions (and his machinations to seize local caches of godly power) to a single world, he's more likely campaigning across countless "backwater" Primes at any given time. He really has nothing to gain in the Realms because even installing himself as the supreme overgod of the entire world and sphere and pantheon would still be a demotion (and an obligation, a package of limitations) onto his already-established cosmic power. If he's mucking around in the guise of a god of the Realms then it's likely part of some deception or amusement which has nothing to do with asserting his dominance over one "backwater" world.

[/Ayrik]
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  21:09:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Tall tales about Asmodeus (whom you call Ahriman) have always abounded. Prince of Evil. Lord of Lies. It's unwise to believe anything said about him, especially when comparing the Lord of the Nine Hells (who commands the obedience of every devil in the entire D&D cosmos, who has destroyed gods) vs Pazuzu (a lofty little archfiend who merely lords over the shallowest layer of the Abyss).




I'm going here rather of topic, but I'm curious, are you sarcastic Ayrik? Or just in comparison to the share power (not only direct, but alos influence) Asmodeus has?
As Pazuzu even before 4E, was one of the most influential Archfiends. He is the "Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms" - as he exchanged his Obyrith aura of madness into being able to command the sky in all Abyssal layers, as well as all abyssal aerial/flying creatures (presumably, which aren't Demon Lords) (aside from controlling the largest part of Pazunia, which is the most well connected Abyssal layer, along with once also controling the layer of Torremor...which he controlled up to the end of 3.5 lore, and only lost it to Lamashtu in 4E). This is along being mentioned as one of, if not most intelligent and wisest of the Obyrith...as well as one of the few Demon Princes with active and positive relations with Yugoloths and Devils.

That's not even mentioning the stuff he was responsible in 4E lore, as partly mentioned by Delnyn, many of which are not even directly connected to Asmodeus (for example being essentially the "mastermind" among the Obyriths, and being directly or indirectly responsible for , many many of the multiverses ills.)

So I wouldn't call Pazuzu a "lofty little archfiend", unless as a comparison, but even then I would say Pazuzu is a bit to influential to described as such, even in comparison...

Edited by - Baltas on 19 Nov 2020 23:00:49
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
924 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  23:45:07  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know I’m a little late to this conversation/debate, but from reading through everyone’s responses, it seems to be coming down to the implications of the wall being a punishment that makes sense or is reasonable.

I am looking at it from a different angle though I haven’t read the books in a long time. Despite having been created by Myrkul or whomever, I don’t see it as a conscious punishment but rather a natural state of things. It’s not Myrkul’s cruelty that shunts the Faithless into the wall, it’s just the utter absurdity of living in a world with active gods and not believing in them. This behavior leads to decay and a wall represents that decay, or at least it is the prevailing gods interpretation of that decay.

I don’t know who invented the concept, but I’m guessing whomever did so took at least some inspiration from Dante’s Inferno where people ended up in different circles of Hell, not because of God’s petty whims, but because it was the only logical place for them to be. The soul is that much different and most of the punishments weren’t because of pure law breaking. Another great example of this philosophy can be found in the movie What Dreams May Come (a 90s Robin Williams movie).

Anyway, that’s just my take on it.

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Edited by - Seethyr on 19 Nov 2020 23:46:57
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  20:08:47  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

I am looking at it from a different angle though I haven’t read the books in a long time. Despite having been created by Myrkul or whomever, I don’t see it as a conscious punishment but rather a natural state of things. It’s not Myrkul’s cruelty that shunts the Faithless into the wall, it’s just the utter absurdity of living in a world with active gods and not believing in them. This behavior leads to decay and a wall represents that decay, or at least it is the prevailing gods interpretation of that decay.




Well, the thing is, Ed himself stated actual atheism (ie not believing in the divine's existence) in the Realms is an absurd view, in the same series of responses, he did suggest not only theists are absorbed into the Wall, but anyone who doesn't "revere" or see as a role model in any way, a higher power or idea than themselves:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/06/01/is-there-a-non-theistic-religion-in-the-forgotten-realms-that-doesnt-automatically-result-in-being-slapped-on-the-wall-of-the-faithless/
quote:

Valentino Conti
@ValetheHowl
@TheEdVerse Quick question, is there a non-theistic religion in the Realms that doesn't automatically result in being slapped on the Wall of the Faithless?
-------------------------------
Sure. The Cult of Entropy (popular in Chessenta).
And there's a cult of The Cosmic Balance (worshipping the concept and not a deity), too.
There's even a Cult of Ao, who believe that the gods are all posers and frauds, as Ao holds all true power.
One can also...
...take the view that the worship of Siamorphe, in form, is "non-theistic."
Then there are beholder cults, and cults that venerate enchanted speaking swords, and...

---------------------------------------
Sir_Encerwal
@SEncerwal
·
Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
Wait, I thought Ao didn't need faithful, explicitly ignored his cultists, and that they ended up in the Wall of the Faithless.
--------------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
That's right. That doesn't mean he doesn't have worshipers.
Be wary of pronouncements about the fates of souls. Where do they come from? Likely from clergy. How do THEY know? A god or god's servitor told them. Was that speaker telling truth? Or serving propaganda?
-------------------------------------------
Danny Tejas
@DannyTejas_
·
Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
I love this q&a! I have a non-theist divination wizard who transformed himself into a lich but views gods as more of self made deal makers and I feel like he would really relate to The Cosmic Balance’s ideals.
-----------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
There are even some wizards and sages who worship the Weave but NOT Mystra. (Mystra answers their prayers nonetheless. Gods who refuse veneration sooner or later fall from godhood.)
And there are liches who worship older, famous liches (as role models.)
-------------------------------------------------

Polat Akbulut
@polatkblt
·
Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
I also remember reading that true atheists go to Asmodeus (Ahriman) to be food. So if you're worshipping a concept, like cosmic balance, and not a deity; do you count as a true atheist? Will your soul be food for Ahriman?
----------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
No, a true atheist is a non-believer (not just a non-worshipper). No divinity, no divine magic, can't and doesn't happen.
Which in the Realms would most likely be an insane person. Being as the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming and everywhere.
#Realmslore
5:08 PM · Apr 26, 2020
-------------------------------------------------

Pataphor
@Pataphor1
·
Apr 27, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse and @polatkblt
... what's the definition of "faith" then, given that knowledge and witnessings and clerical miracles are daily happenings in the Realms? Is that "faith" or "observation"?
Or is it just sacrifices and worship that prevents the Wall of Faithless?
-------------------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
Just as in our real world, many use "faith" to mean whatever they want it to.
In the Realms, it's almost never "believing without evidence" but is used in the "belief in a being" or collective religious sense.
Yes, the Wall is avoided by actively worshipping.
#Realmslore
----------------------------------------------------------

Greysil
@Greysil_Tassyr
·
Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
So true worship exempts you from the Wall, even if the object of your worship isn't a deity?
--------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
That's right. It's what the entity did in life that matters (belief and intent).
#Realmslore
6:28 AM · Apr 26, 2020



I think though this quote is important for the whole discussion.

Still, it would be rather cruel for atheists to end up in the Wall, due to fact many wold be mentally ill.
Then again, Ed stated "what the entity did in life that matters", and their "belief and intent", so it's possible people not mentally capable to recognize divinity, are not absorbed by the Wall...(especially if the looked up to someone for example, or some idea).

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Nov 2020 20:10:36
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1796 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  20:42:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tell that to Adon. Kelemvor was seriously considering plastering him on the Wall. He was only saved because he was a witness in the trial of Cyric...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
797 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2020 :  21:27:14  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Tell that to Adon. Kelemvor was seriously considering plastering him on the Wall. He was only saved because he was a witness in the trial of Cyric...



If I remember right, in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad itself, Kelemvor didn't restore the Wall into how Myrkul had it, and only intended to punish Adon, but not by having the Wall of the Faithless absorb and erase him.

Him restoring or keeping the Wall as it is (in the book he changed it into a mirror-wall showed the false and the faithless their reflections in a form that shown them in a form that reflected their mistakes in life, and trapped them in the form shown in the mirror, as long as they needed to repent their crimes according to Kelemvor not necessary forever), is a latter retcon by WotC. I seem to remember right, as for example the Forgotten Realms wiki also recounts this:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless#Notes

If I'm not sure if right that only Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide sourcebook mentioned the Wall of the Faithless, I seem to remember earlier books (but released after Crucible) mentioned it.

I also remember that he initially didn't want to have Adon see Mystra through his eyes, as he thought it wouldn't be enough (as he would see Mystra as still a mortal, as due to his love, Kelemvor states his view of Mystra didn't change, since they were gods.)

Rather stupid/unwise, as it would still restore is sanity (and did), but it wasn't out of uncaring.

It does though undermine a bit my suggestion that mental issues are considered into the judgement, but it might be also a difference between Ed and Troy Denning perspective on the issue (if to be fair, as I mentioned, Troy Denning had in his book the Wall altered or replaced).

Edited by - Baltas on 21 Nov 2020 01:41:23
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1796 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  00:11:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 3e Campaign Setting mentioned the Wall, so yeah, the Mirror Wall got retconned since 3e.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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