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T O P I C    R E V I E W
CorellonsDevout Posted - 11 Nov 2020 : 23:13:43
This errata is making the rounds on the internet, so I figured I would share it here (apologies if someone else already has). Apparently, they're omitting the sentence which describes the Wall of the Faithless in their updated printing of the SCAG.

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SCAG-Errata.pdf
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Azar Posted - 26 Nov 2020 : 02:35:12
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

the Fudge Plane


An awesome typo, if ever there was one.
Baltas Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 03:22:16
You mean this video?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejcQN-Kw7y0

And about if WoTC would make a new campaign setting book for Forgotten Realms?
It's not impossible, but I kinda doubt it. In my opinion, I think they might have release new books that cover options from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
sfdragon Posted - 22 Nov 2020 : 00:46:20
you know it might be nothing, but there was A video on youtube that I watched a while back that had in its title "Does wotc hate scag"?
so assuming its true, do you suppose that wotc might be doing a new one?

Baltas Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 23:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

From what I read, what Ed said does conflict with what is stated in the 3e Campaign Setting.

Not only everyone in FaerŻn knows of the Wall (or so the book says), the only way to avoid the Wall is to believe in a deity. That stuff of "believing in something else also works" must be Ed trying to fix the Wall's mess.



Yeah, it is a fix, but Ed essentially addressed the lore conflict, by framing the information in the Forgotten Realms 3e setting as just an example of an unreliable narrator.

quote:
Sir_Encerwal
@SEncerwal

Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
Wait, I thought Ao didn't need faithful, explicitly ignored his cultists, and that they ended up in the Wall of the Faithless.
--------------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
That's right. That doesn't mean he doesn't have worshipers.
Be wary of pronouncements about the fates of souls. Where do they come from? Likely from clergy. How do THEY know? A god or god's servitor told them. Was that speaker telling truth? Or serving propaganda?


Which is a thing with Forgotten Realms lore books, as Ed stated for years many are meant to be not written by an omniscient and unbiased writer.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Ah yes, sorry, I hadn't connected it with your previous comments.

Kind of makes me wonder if this newest omission is going to be along a similar vein: changing something (in this case, removing the Wall entirely) with no explanation, much like they later retconned the changes made in Crucible.



No problem, and yeah I think the omission in the SCAG Errata, might be ironically a similar retcon.
Zeromaru X Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 23:39:38
From what I read, what Ed said does conflict with what is stated in the 3e Campaign Setting.

Not only everyone in FaerŻn knows of the Wall (or so the book says), the only way to avoid the Wall is to believe in a deity. That stuff of "believing in something else also works" must be Ed trying to fix the Wall's mess.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 23:37:59
Ah yes, sorry, I hadn't connected it with your previous comments.

Kind of makes me wonder if this newest omission is going to be along a similar vein: changing something (in this case, removing the Wall entirely) with no explanation, much like they later retconned the changes made in Crucible.
Baltas Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 23:18:38
I know, I just commented that in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, Kelemvor didn't mean to put Adon in the Wall, and put Dead in the Wall of the Faithless at the end of Crucible. But that it latter was retconned/changed by WOTC to have him put people in the Wall of the Faithless:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23749&whichpage=4#536930

CorellonsDevout Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 22:35:57
According to the 3.0 FR Campaign Guide, Kelwmvor uses the Wall.
Baltas Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 19:15:56
Hmm, I think you are right Demzer, the Wall of the Faithless wasn't removed/transformed into the Mirrored Wall, just not used by Kelemvor.

Still, I had the impression Kelemvor didn't use the Wall of the Faithless, even after becoming cold, and abandoning his benevolence, he transformed the Fudge Plane into a realm "of neither punishment nor reward" for the Faithless and False. Full fragment (from Crucible):
quote:
ďIn the past, I have been guilty of all this, but as I have changed myself, so have I changed my realm.Ē Kelemvor waved a hand over his new attire. ďI invite you all to send your avatars to see the new City of the Dead. Judge me not on my past, but on what you find there now.Ē
As the Usurper spoke, he opened the gates of his city. Many gods did as he asked, though Sune turned around at the mirrored gates; the reflection of her slightest flaw was enough to convince her Lord Death had done all he claimed. The others continued on, swooping down ashen streets crowded with dull-eyed residents, passing whole boroughs of drab buildings and dead trees, crossing graceless bridges that spanned still waters the color of steel. They saw no cruelty or malice, but neither did they see joy; Lord Deathís realm had become a domain of shuffling spirits and passionless shades, a place of neither punishment nor reward. And in the heart of this dismal city loomed the Crystal Spire, a soaring minaret of smoky brown topaz encircled by a line of sorrowful spirits, the False and the Faithless.
Demzer Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 18:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

So it's like I remembered it.
I wonder why WoTC had it returned then, seeing a "Crucible" changed the Wall of the Faithless into the much less horrific and less unfair Mirrored Wall?



This is wrong, and the wiki is wrong.

I invite you and anyone interested to reread the relevant part of Crucible, the very start of chapter 21.

The Wall of the Faithless is/was the wall circling the entire City of Judgement/the Dead or whatever you want to call it. The entire city.

The wall that Kelemvor turned into a crystal mirror wall is the wall of his Judgement Hall in the Crystal Spire NOT the Wall of the Faithless.

Hall =\= City

There was no "retcon" of the Wall of the Faithless before this new Errata.
Baltas Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 03:02:20
After looking up bits of the novel now, it's specified as by rejecting Mystra (according to the novel), Adon became faithless, and begged Kelemvor to turn away Mystra's worshipers from her (which made, him ccording to the narrative/Kelemvor a False). He also literally turned over his fate to Kelemvor.

And yes, Adon done all of this in madness caused by Cyric, something that is noted by multiple characters in the novel, but Kelemvor, think Adon still should be judged.
Ayrik Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 02:37:36
So exactly what did worthless little Adon do which required "punishment"?

And exactly why would mighty Kelemvor God Of Death (or any other deity) possess authority to decree and enforce this "punishment"?
Baltas Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 01:47:43
So it's like I remembered it.
I wonder why WoTC had it returned then, seeing a "Crucible" changed the Wall of the Faithless into the much less horrific and less unfair Mirrored Wall?

Also, I corrected my earlier post, as I intended to write "only intended to punish Adon, but not by having the Wall of the Faithless absorb and erase him.", not "only intended to punish Adon, but by having the Wall of the Faithless absorb and erase him."
Zeromaru X Posted - 21 Nov 2020 : 00:11:06
The 3e Campaign Setting mentioned the Wall, so yeah, the Mirror Wall got retconned since 3e.
Baltas Posted - 20 Nov 2020 : 21:27:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Tell that to Adon. Kelemvor was seriously considering plastering him on the Wall. He was only saved because he was a witness in the trial of Cyric...



If I remember right, in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad itself, Kelemvor didn't restore the Wall into how Myrkul had it, and only intended to punish Adon, but not by having the Wall of the Faithless absorb and erase him.

Him restoring or keeping the Wall as it is (in the book he changed it into a mirror-wall showed the false and the faithless their reflections in a form that shown them in a form that reflected their mistakes in life, and trapped them in the form shown in the mirror, as long as they needed to repent their crimes according to Kelemvor not necessary forever), is a latter retcon by WotC. I seem to remember right, as for example the Forgotten Realms wiki also recounts this:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless#Notes

If I'm not sure if right that only Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide sourcebook mentioned the Wall of the Faithless, I seem to remember earlier books (but released after Crucible) mentioned it.

I also remember that he initially didn't want to have Adon see Mystra through his eyes, as he thought it wouldn't be enough (as he would see Mystra as still a mortal, as due to his love, Kelemvor states his view of Mystra didn't change, since they were gods.)

Rather stupid/unwise, as it would still restore is sanity (and did), but it wasn't out of uncaring.

It does though undermine a bit my suggestion that mental issues are considered into the judgement, but it might be also a difference between Ed and Troy Denning perspective on the issue (if to be fair, as I mentioned, Troy Denning had in his book the Wall altered or replaced).
Zeromaru X Posted - 20 Nov 2020 : 20:42:36
Tell that to Adon. Kelemvor was seriously considering plastering him on the Wall. He was only saved because he was a witness in the trial of Cyric...
Baltas Posted - 20 Nov 2020 : 20:08:47
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

I am looking at it from a different angle though I havenít read the books in a long time. Despite having been created by Myrkul or whomever, I donít see it as a conscious punishment but rather a natural state of things. Itís not Myrkulís cruelty that shunts the Faithless into the wall, itís just the utter absurdity of living in a world with active gods and not believing in them. This behavior leads to decay and a wall represents that decay, or at least it is the prevailing gods interpretation of that decay.




Well, the thing is, Ed himself stated actual atheism (ie not believing in the divine's existence) in the Realms is an absurd view, in the same series of responses, he did suggest not only theists are absorbed into the Wall, but anyone who doesn't "revere" or see as a role model in any way, a higher power or idea than themselves:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2020/06/01/is-there-a-non-theistic-religion-in-the-forgotten-realms-that-doesnt-automatically-result-in-being-slapped-on-the-wall-of-the-faithless/
quote:

Valentino Conti
@ValetheHowl
@TheEdVerse Quick question, is there a non-theistic religion in the Realms that doesn't automatically result in being slapped on the Wall of the Faithless?
-------------------------------
Sure. The Cult of Entropy (popular in Chessenta).
And there's a cult of The Cosmic Balance (worshipping the concept and not a deity), too.
There's even a Cult of Ao, who believe that the gods are all posers and frauds, as Ao holds all true power.
One can also...
...take the view that the worship of Siamorphe, in form, is "non-theistic."
Then there are beholder cults, and cults that venerate enchanted speaking swords, and...

---------------------------------------
Sir_Encerwal
@SEncerwal

Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
Wait, I thought Ao didn't need faithful, explicitly ignored his cultists, and that they ended up in the Wall of the Faithless.
--------------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
That's right. That doesn't mean he doesn't have worshipers.
Be wary of pronouncements about the fates of souls. Where do they come from? Likely from clergy. How do THEY know? A god or god's servitor told them. Was that speaker telling truth? Or serving propaganda?
-------------------------------------------
Danny Tejas
@DannyTejas_

Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
I love this q&a! I have a non-theist divination wizard who transformed himself into a lich but views gods as more of self made deal makers and I feel like he would really relate to The Cosmic Balanceís ideals.
-----------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
There are even some wizards and sages who worship the Weave but NOT Mystra. (Mystra answers their prayers nonetheless. Gods who refuse veneration sooner or later fall from godhood.)
And there are liches who worship older, famous liches (as role models.)
-------------------------------------------------

Polat Akbulut
@polatkblt

Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
I also remember reading that true atheists go to Asmodeus (Ahriman) to be food. So if you're worshipping a concept, like cosmic balance, and not a deity; do you count as a true atheist? Will your soul be food for Ahriman?
----------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
No, a true atheist is a non-believer (not just a non-worshipper). No divinity, no divine magic, can't and doesn't happen.
Which in the Realms would most likely be an insane person. Being as the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming and everywhere.
#Realmslore
5:08 PM ∑ Apr 26, 2020
-------------------------------------------------

Pataphor
@Pataphor1

Apr 27, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse and @polatkblt
... what's the definition of "faith" then, given that knowledge and witnessings and clerical miracles are daily happenings in the Realms? Is that "faith" or "observation"?
Or is it just sacrifices and worship that prevents the Wall of Faithless?
-------------------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
Just as in our real world, many use "faith" to mean whatever they want it to.
In the Realms, it's almost never "believing without evidence" but is used in the "belief in a being" or collective religious sense.
Yes, the Wall is avoided by actively worshipping.
#Realmslore
----------------------------------------------------------

Greysil
@Greysil_Tassyr

Apr 26, 2020
Replying to @TheEdVerse
So true worship exempts you from the Wall, even if the object of your worship isn't a deity?
--------------------------------------
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
That's right. It's what the entity did in life that matters (belief and intent).
#Realmslore
6:28 AM ∑ Apr 26, 2020



I think though this quote is important for the whole discussion.

Still, it would be rather cruel for atheists to end up in the Wall, due to fact many wold be mentally ill.
Then again, Ed stated "what the entity did in life that matters", and their "belief and intent", so it's possible people not mentally capable to recognize divinity, are not absorbed by the Wall...(especially if the looked up to someone for example, or some idea).
Seethyr Posted - 19 Nov 2020 : 23:45:07
I know Iím a little late to this conversation/debate, but from reading through everyoneís responses, it seems to be coming down to the implications of the wall being a punishment that makes sense or is reasonable.

I am looking at it from a different angle though I havenít read the books in a long time. Despite having been created by Myrkul or whomever, I donít see it as a conscious punishment but rather a natural state of things. Itís not Myrkulís cruelty that shunts the Faithless into the wall, itís just the utter absurdity of living in a world with active gods and not believing in them. This behavior leads to decay and a wall represents that decay, or at least it is the prevailing gods interpretation of that decay.

I donít know who invented the concept, but Iím guessing whomever did so took at least some inspiration from Danteís Inferno where people ended up in different circles of Hell, not because of Godís petty whims, but because it was the only logical place for them to be. The soul is that much different and most of the punishments werenít because of pure law breaking. Another great example of this philosophy can be found in the movie What Dreams May Come (a 90s Robin Williams movie).

Anyway, thatís just my take on it.
Baltas Posted - 19 Nov 2020 : 21:09:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Tall tales about Asmodeus (whom you call Ahriman) have always abounded. Prince of Evil. Lord of Lies. It's unwise to believe anything said about him, especially when comparing the Lord of the Nine Hells (who commands the obedience of every devil in the entire D&D cosmos, who has destroyed gods) vs Pazuzu (a lofty little archfiend who merely lords over the shallowest layer of the Abyss).




I'm going here rather of topic, but I'm curious, are you sarcastic Ayrik? Or just in comparison to the share power (not only direct, but alos influence) Asmodeus has?
As Pazuzu even before 4E, was one of the most influential Archfiends. He is the "Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms" - as he exchanged his Obyrith aura of madness into being able to command the sky in all Abyssal layers, as well as all abyssal aerial/flying creatures (presumably, which aren't Demon Lords) (aside from controlling the largest part of Pazunia, which is the most well connected Abyssal layer, along with once also controling the layer of Torremor...which he controlled up to the end of 3.5 lore, and only lost it to Lamashtu in 4E). This is along being mentioned as one of, if not most intelligent and wisest of the Obyrith...as well as one of the few Demon Princes with active and positive relations with Yugoloths and Devils.

That's not even mentioning the stuff he was responsible in 4E lore, as partly mentioned by Delnyn, many of which are not even directly connected to Asmodeus (for example being essentially the "mastermind" among the Obyriths, and being directly or indirectly responsible for , many many of the multiverses ills.)

So I wouldn't call Pazuzu a "lofty little archfiend", unless as a comparison, but even then I would say Pazuzu is a bit to influential to described as such, even in comparison...
Ayrik Posted - 18 Nov 2020 : 23:26:36
Tall tales about Asmodeus (whom you call Ahriman) have always abounded. Prince of Evil. Lord of Lies. It's unwise to believe anything said about him, especially when comparing the Lord of the Nine Hells (who commands the obedience of every devil in the entire D&D cosmos, who has destroyed gods) vs Pazuzu (a lofty little archfiend who merely lords over the shallowest layer of the Abyss).

But the power Asmodeus commands across the cosmos differs in scope from the power Asmodeus commands across the Realms. An arena where he must (in theory) abide by Ao's rules just like all the other godlings, where he is technically inferior (and subordinate?) to certain other powers, where he must scrabble through mortal dirt to claim his share of their souls.

Toril might be one single "Backwater" Prime among countless others. It seems likely that Asmodeus (or his aspect/avatar) would not confine his attentions (and his machinations to seize local caches of godly power) to a single world, he's more likely campaigning across countless "backwater" Primes at any given time. He really has nothing to gain in the Realms because even installing himself as the supreme overgod of the entire world and sphere and pantheon would still be a demotion (and an obligation, a package of limitations) onto his already-established cosmic power. If he's mucking around in the guise of a god of the Realms then it's likely part of some deception or amusement which has nothing to do with asserting his dominance over one "backwater" world.
Delnyn Posted - 18 Nov 2020 : 23:01:30
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Seems a little like overkill for such a backwater world as Toril. Ahriman (who even GtH just stated to be a greater deity, so surely something other greater deities could deal with) would eat from all over the multiverse.

One single prime world more or less shouldn't matter



If only it were that simple.

First, I do not foresee a straightup kick-in-the-doors and charge in swords-a-swinging frontal assault on Ahriman. Ahriman and Jazirian (now dead in Realmspace AFAIK) are different from other deities because they do not require worship and do not grant spells to mortals. Therefore, Ahriman lies outside Ao's strictures. That by itself shouts "Proceed With Caution" in bold neon letters.

He as shown through his avatar Asmodeus is extremely good at long range planning and hiding secrets. The 4E screed about Asmodeus being Pazuzu's catspaw sounds like yet another tall tale. I doubt even greater deities want any smoke with Ahriman for fear of not knowing what other powers or tricks he may have. Also, the Faerunian pantheon is probably tied up anyway with the Pact Primeval. The pantheon certainly does not want demons running amok on Toril or in their own domains.

Second, Ahriman does not consume Faithless souls as its own end. He does so to heal his broken body enough so he can leave Baator.
His true goal is to reclaim the power he used to create and maintain the Outer Planes. And grab Jazirian's power while he has the opportunity. Letting him consume Faithless souls on other worlds does not get Toril off the hook. GtH lists Ahriman as a greater deity even after creating the Outer Planes and taking a gazillion d6 falling damage. If he heals himself and takes back his old power, he basically reverts to a demiurge completely capable of killing pantheons.

In summary, the Wall smacks of desparate fear on the part of the Faerunian pantheon. I would not be surprised if multispheric powers such as Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Oghma, the Mordinsamman, the Seldarine, etc. spread the word across various Prime Material crystal spheres to do their part in keeping Ahriman penned up. The Wall just happens to be the tactic the Faerunian pantheon chose.
Ayrik Posted - 18 Nov 2020 : 20:39:42
quote:
The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them.
...
I doubt we'll see [legacy thing] again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever [contrived new] structure we have this week.

WotC's people don't care about the game and setting I care about. So I don't care about the game and setting they care about. Retcons don't need to be retconned away and things don't need undoing if they never even happened in the first place. I just stick with AD&D, the ever-changing demands of WotC's "current design staff" aren't even relevant.

For me (and my grognard brethren) it's really just that simple. No little cabal of arrogant wizards from some faraway coast are ever going to be able to topple Gygax's Great Wheel.
Zeromaru X Posted - 18 Nov 2020 : 15:54:32
quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.



The undid most of the changes of 4e, but they didn't ignore them. The changes were reversed by a narrative event known as the Second Sundering. Which means those events are still canon and recognized as "recent history".

And they left some 4e stuff left, as it has became popular enough to win its place in FaerŻn (such as the dragonborn realm of Tymanther).

So yes, some stuff brought by Spellplague is still relevant for 5e.

quote:
Originally posted by Azar



Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.



They use a lot of stuff from Planescape in current published books, so it's still relevant. I don't know if they plan to something with it, tho. The promised they are going to bring back some classic settings next year, tho. Planescape has high chances of being one of these.
Azar Posted - 18 Nov 2020 : 15:49:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.



They've undone the changes, but the changes still happened.

The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them. Retconning the Spellplague would not only be admitting to making a mistake, it would also anger those who liked it.

So instead, they're undoing the changes but keeping things as vague as possible, so they don't alienate anyone by making anything definitive.


That's kind of like sweeping crumbs under a tablecloth...pebble-sized crumbs; both are technically out of sight yet still very much visible. Maybe those alterations will be diluted enough come 6th Edition?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.



I doubt we'll see Planescape again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever planar structure we have this week.



Terrible. They're sitting on a gold mine but they keep insisting on more iron pyrite. At this rate, I'll have to start drawing pentagrams if I want it along with Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur to be resurrected from the ashes.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 18 Nov 2020 : 14:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by Azar


Is the Spellplague still recognized in D&D 5th Edition? I know that Wizards of the Coast basically wiped away most 4th Edition changes to The Forgotten Realms with a retcon because of how unpopular they were.



They've undone the changes, but the changes still happened.

The current design staff seems to have no issue doing retcons, but only of stuff that predates them. Retconning the Spellplague would not only be admitting to making a mistake, it would also anger those who liked it.

So instead, they're undoing the changes but keeping things as vague as possible, so they don't alienate anyone by making anything definitive.

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

Planescape? Holy crap (no pun intended)...is that setting even relevant in D&D 5th Edition ? Is Wizards of the Coast planning to do anything with Planescape? I ask because their track record with legacy settings is appalling.



I doubt we'll see Planescape again, or if we do, it'll be folded, bent, spindled, mutilated, and otherwise forcibly crammed into whatever planar structure we have this week.

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