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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3310 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  00:15:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meh, faith in a world like the Realms comes with benefits in life, not only in the afterlife. That's all the incentive mortals need to have faith (and for many people it would also be about personal belief or personal stories), no need to involve walls or whatever. The "punishment" for not having faith is no (or less) beneifts.

Moreover, faith doesn't even mean devoting yourself to one or a few gods, it just means praying to them. It's easy to picture nearly all people at some point being like "I have this problem, maybe X god will lend a hand. Let's try; where's the harm?" And if they receive help, maybe they'll leave a token or go to a shrine as thanks, but the act of praying would produce faith on its own. It's equally easy to picture nearly all people asking for assistance in their craft, work, or in an important matter, because the gods are real and might very well be listening, so where's the harm? A very cliché example would be farmers praying to Chauntea, receiving good crops, and deciding to celebrate her.

For that reason, aside from not liking the Wall, I've always wondered how it could even exist, given that only a handful of souls would go to it, and they would decompose over time. Where does this influx of faithless large enough to keep the wall constantly up comes from?

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Nov 2020 00:21:39
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  01:48:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I once suggested that the Wall had another purpose... Keep in mind, this is just a thought I had, utterly unsupported by anything in Realmslore.

But... What if the Wall wasn't there as a punishment? What if the slow dissolution of souls provided energy/material that was directed elsewhere?

My original idea was inspired, IIRC, by a discussion of Tharizdun or something like him. What if his imprisonment required a constant source of energy? As the Faithless couldn't go to any deity's realm, why not use them for that source of power?

Or maybe you tweak the history of the Wall just a bit, and go with Krash's Lord of the End of Everything write-up -- maybe Jergal was behind the creation of the Wall (directly or indirectly) and he's siphoning that energy off in some other direction, entirely unnoticed...

Again, nothing in canon Realmslore even implies either of these things might be the case. It's just another case of me taking some existing thing and rotating it 90 degrees.



Gods lying? What? Never!!

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  01:55:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Oh, I just thought of something, though I am not sure how much merit it has. The Wall was originally created by Myrkul, right? And Kelemvor tried to get rid of it, but wasn't allowed. I forgot why/who stopped him, but what if it was kept around (until recently, apparently) by Ao, as a way to keep balance? Gods benefit from having the souls of their followers in their realms as petitioners, and but since their power became more tied to worship, Ao didn't want then getting the "free souls" of those who had never had a patron deity. So instead of a faithless going where he was best suited, he got the Wall, and the Wall is as much a punishment to the gods themselves as it is to those who refuse to worship them?



This only works if we acknowledge Ao is an active force of Evil in the cosmos.



Wait, you mean you think he's not an ultimately selfish bastard who tries to keep all the power and keep the gods at odds with one another so he can rule over them? I trust Ao has no interests except in how it serves his needs. I also think he's got his hands in a lot more pies than people think, and he's really good at hiding his cards.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  02:00:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If Myrkul created the Wall, what happened to Faithless when Jergal was in charge?

I find myself favoring my new idea that Jergal was pulling some shenanigans with souls, and that the whole "Myrkul did it!" was a bit of PR that Jergal had no issue with.



Considering that most human "faithlessness" happened during Jergal's time (Imaskar and Netheril, with the active rejection of worship of the intermediate to upper echelons of both societies), I agree with this.

Jergal was probably just using (whatever that means) all unclaimed souls and that's why from splitting his power we got two greater and an intermediate power and he still managed to stay at demigod level and just ... kind of hang around in the background?

The Wall thus acted as a scary punishment for few mortals and a check on the power of the god of the dead.



Now THAT is some interesting postulation. I do wonder how many of the Imaskari though actually didn't worship at all. I know the Imaskari thought they could become like gods.

Perhaps even Ao collected the power of anyone that didn't worship. He did seem to show a bit of favoritism to the Imaskari, seeing as how he allowed them to setup the Imaskari Godswall.

Which IF Ao does "feed" on the faithless... and the wall of the faithless is suddenly destroyed after a possible influx of Abeirans... did Ao just need some kind of power recharge? Just a thought, and the numbers going to the wall wouldn't normally be a lot... except again, after the spellplague when all those abeirans came over and refused to worship.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Nov 2020 02:04:41
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1791 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  04:32:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Some pretty strong accusations in this context.

The Wall might be a necessary unpleasantness to help guide wayward souls. Sometimes parents have to punish their wayward children, demotivate unacceptable behaviour, motivate acceptable behaviour, but that doesn't make the parents "evil" and it doesn't make them "hypocrites".




Well, I see the things this way. What happens if you insult Mystra? (Or any other god you want) Nothing. And this is canon, as any characters in the novels can insult a god without fear of a consequence.

Killing her followers? Nothing. The churches war with each other all the time.

What happens if you don't worship Mystra? Nothing, as long as you worship some other god.

What happens if you don't worship any of them? Your soul is mortared into the Wall until it is ground to dust for your crimes. And you are aware of the process from beginning to end.

And remember the Wall was made before Ao tied the gods fed off of mortal worship, so it was a punishment for a crime that had no consequence*. Choosing not to worship the Gods had about as much impact on your and the world's daily life as prefering coffee over tea. And yet, it is punished. There are far greater insults you can give the Gods, and no special punishment for them, but if you choose not to take part in the rituals of worship, if you chose to not pray, if you choose to not revere any god at all.... that is what gets a special horrific punishment?

It simply breaks logic, it doesn't make sense, and it leads to so many problems of consistency in Reamslore. And I'm going to talk about how this feels hostile to atheist in the real world...

*Although it seems to be a contradiction here, as both Planescape and the OGB describe the gods as needing the worship for their powers and stuff before the ToT... which makes the ToT a nonsense as well.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Nov 2020 04:41:11
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34137 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  05:20:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, the part about tying divine strength to their worship being a result of the ToT simply doesn't make sense -- because we know deities had dwindled away from a lack of worship before.

Personally, I prefer to spin it as Ao changed the formula, so it made deities pay more attention to their followers.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  05:32:45  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wondered if in the distant past Ahriman was present in Realmsspace and was the original devourer of Faithless souls. In that case, would the Wall be the way the Elder gods such as Jergal denied Ahriman the Faithless souls?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34137 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  10:59:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I wondered if in the distant past Ahriman was present in Realmsspace and was the original devourer of Faithless souls. In that case, would the Wall be the way the Elder gods such as Jergal denied Ahriman the Faithless souls?



Possible, but it seems there would have been other options aside from "we're gonna torture you until you dissolve."

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  12:11:01  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

I wondered if in the distant past Ahriman was present in Realmsspace and was the original devourer of Faithless souls. In that case, would the Wall be the way the Elder gods such as Jergal denied Ahriman the Faithless souls?



Possible, but it seems there would have been other options aside from "we're gonna torture you until you dissolve."

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  14:58:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Honestly, the part about tying divine strength to their worship being a result of the ToT simply doesn't make sense -- because we know deities had dwindled away from a lack of worship before.

Personally, I prefer to spin it as Ao changed the formula, so it made deities pay more attention to their followers.



Very much agreed. He just changed the methods of measurement.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1791 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  15:56:07  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.



If only they had voiced those concerns in a published product, I wouldn't see the FR good gods as a bunch of hypocrites.

And I still don't get why non-believers are harshly punished, while blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders of the gods go scott free to their afterlifes.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Nov 2020 16:02:55
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  17:18:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.



If only they had voiced those concerns in a published product, I wouldn't see the FR good gods as a bunch of hypocrites.

And I still don't get why non-believers are harshly punished, while blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders of the gods go scott free to their afterlifes.



Blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders just might not be going scott free. Some folks wait and wait for their god to come along and bring them to their afterlife. Meanwhile there are devils and such who are looking to steal souls before the gods claim them. It just might be something wherein those who blasphemed against their patron can't get picked up by their deity and they leave them waiting until they finally get worn down by some devil, etc... Of course, this isn't canon, but SOMEONE goes with the devils. We just aren't given the "rules" for what happens other than a high level overview.

So, I guess what I'm saying is... if you don't conform well enough to your patron, maybe there are some issues as a result... maybe even something outside the deity's hands. Maybe they can't "change" you into a proper petitioner for their realm, and thus your soul is tainted and eventually it will deteriorate into a larvae or somesuch (i.e. you were such a worm in life, not following your own religion that you chose, that you begin to resemble a worm in the afterlife). Just an idea. May need fleshing out.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1791 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  17:21:27  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But that is not a law-abbided punishment. And can happen even to the most devout worshippers if for some reason the devil appears before the carriage sent by the gods to pick them up. So, it's not even comparable with the Wall of the Faithless.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2020 :  23:19:18  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  00:19:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But that is not a law-abbided punishment. And can happen even to the most devout worshippers if for some reason the devil appears before the carriage sent by the gods to pick them up. So, it's not even comparable with the Wall of the Faithless.



Not with the devil's, I believe all of there's are contracted. I guess I shouldn't have used the term stealing them (the tanar'ri actually do that). What I was picturing is that "if your god doesn't show up to get you within X time, you start to devolve into a larvae", and then there's these devils sitting there going "hey, its getting around that time... you know, if you sign this....". Along those same lines, maybe the demons can't steal someone until they actually do devolve into larvae. Again, non-canon, but it adds some to the afterlife to explain away how a good, faithful person can trust that they will go where they should, but those who weren't kind of run the risk of getting recruited to be a fiend (either contractually with the devils, or forcibly by turning into a larvae that then gets changed into a low level demon).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1791 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  00:55:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.



But they are bound to exist. Either they are Abeirans that got transported to Toril either during the Spellplague or the Second Sundering (and they are justified, as gods actually don't exist in Abeir, so for them is really difficult to grasp the concept of an actual living god -- you can say the same applies to anyone that originates from Eberron), people like the Athar (who believe gods doesn't exist; those things are just powerful creatures, not worthy of worship), and those who for some reason lost the faith in the gods. Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Nov 2020 00:56:53
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2551 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  01:29:22  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.



But they are bound to exist. Either they are Abeirans that got transported to Toril either during the Spellplague or the Second Sundering (and they are justified, as gods actually don't exist in Abeir, so for them is really difficult to grasp the concept of an actual living god -- you can say the same applies to anyone that originates from Eberron), people like the Athar (who believe gods doesn't exist; those things are just powerful creatures, not worthy of worship), and those who for some reason lost the faith in the gods. Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.



It's been a long time since I read those books, but I don't remember Adon actually being plastered to the Wall (correct me if I'm wrong). He almost did, I think, but was saved, and returned to Dweamorheart. Again though, it's been several years since I read those books.

As for the Abeirans...I'm not sure they would have ended up on the Wall, as they weren't really under Kelemvor's jurisdiction, just like those of say, Zakhara, aren't. They go to their own deities, and the "faithless" will be dealt with according to the ways of their gods, not the Wall.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Azar
Learned Scribe

103 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  01:32:18  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.



Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.



Is that so ? I cannot - for the life of me - understand how actions performed while magically/supernaturally coerced and/or deceived are considered just as valid as those performed while in possession of a clear and calm (i.e., untainted) head. You'd think gods would be more discerning.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2551 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  01:40:59  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Wooly,
You raised the perfect point. I would not be in the least bit surprised if "younger" deities such as Torm, Deneir and Eldath asked that question. Here is where I spark the debate:

Until "after the Dawn Cataclysm", I would expect the gods, even so called good gods, to regard mortals as assets and commodities. Consider Chauntea as a classic example. In the 1300 and 1400's DR, she had that image of a nuruting mother. In the Days of Netheril when she was worshipped as Jannath, her image was much closer to Silvanus, and cared more for trees than humans.

The gods were not necessarily hostile to mortals as much as indifferent. They probably thought of the Wall less as a punishment and more a recycling bin. After all, the souls in the Wall did dissolve after a long time.

Keep in mind the passage of time means nothing to immortals, especially deities. The pantheon at the time in fact may have thought of the wall as giving mortals second, third, as many chances as possible to "get it right". From that immortal point of view, a 1,000 years of torment in the Wall is nothing more than a "timeout" given to a disruptive child.

I bet the mortal perspectives only became possible when mortals ascended into the pantheon. Going on a limb, I would claim Torm was the first deity to truly bring compassion and regard for mortals into the pantheon. It is recognized he is an ascended mortal paladin, even if he is tight-lipped about his mortal origins.

Alternate perspectives are welcome. In some aspects, I hope I am wrong. Deities that always were deities just do not and can not understand mortals.



If only they had voiced those concerns in a published product, I wouldn't see the FR good gods as a bunch of hypocrites.

And I still don't get why non-believers are harshly punished, while blasphemers, heretics, and other offenders of the gods go scott free to their afterlifes.



Not really. These would likely be classified as False (those who betrayed their god or turned away from their faith--and presumably didn't seek another. They were judged and punished according to their deeds in life). The severity of the punishment varied depending on their crime. For some, this just meant serving in the City of Judgement as an escort or something. For others...it's far more severe.

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2551 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  01:59:49  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Azar

An atheist/agnostic Forgotten Realms would be quite the shift in expectation. Personally, I love playing in the Realms because there are so many faiths present and influencing the world.



Like poor Adon, who lost his faith while magically influenced by Cyric, and ended up plastered in the Wall.

He is the reason I cannot trust Kelemvor. He doesn't care about the "why", just about the facts. That's why I believe all those Abeirans who died in Faerūn ended up in the Wall. To Kelemvor, their specific situation doesn't matter. Just that they don't believe. Just like with Adon.



Is that so ? I cannot - for the life of me - understand how actions performed while magically/supernaturally coerced and/or deceived are considered just as valid as those performed while in possession of a clear and calm (i.e., untainted) head. You'd think gods would be more discerning.



I really don't remember Adon actually ending up on the Wall...And in any case, he was saved, so his fate didn't remain grim.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7303 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  02:19:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Adon's example is extreme. Because the coercion upon his will was imposed by a greater power.

Not very different from other greater powers (like Myrkul or Kelemvor) imposing their own form of coercion with the Wall. Join their faith and serve their beliefs ... or suffer a fate even crueler than the eternal damnation which awaits those who serve evil.

[/Ayrik]
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1791 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  02:28:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stand corrected, then. Thought, I remember he got plastered in the Wall. Or was about to. I remember Adon's fate was what strained Kel and Mystra's friendship.

So, Kelemvor had a change of heart and saved him. But not because that was just or not, because Adon was judged Faithless. It was only because Kel was still simping for Mystra. So, really, one cannot trust Kelemvor's judgement.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Not really. These would likely be classified as False (those who betrayed their god or turned away from their faith--and presumably didn't seek another. They were judged and punished according to their deeds in life). The severity of the punishment varied depending on their crime. For some, this just meant serving in the City of Judgement as an escort or something. For others...it's far more severe.



It doesn't change the fact that they get a better, just treatment for actually harming crimes (as the severity of their punishment depends on the severity of their crimes), while people whose only crime is to think different than the norm gets horrifically tortured for all eternity.

It doesn't change the fact that the Wall is Evil (with capital E), and that the good gods of FR are hypocrites.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Nov 2020 02:29:08
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  02:56:13  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again, it's been a long time since I've read those books, so I could be misremembering what happened, but IIRC, he didn't actually end up on the Wall, and returned to Dweamorheart (from what I recall, he should have technically been deemed false, not faithless). And the crimes of the false are crimes against the gods, so rapists and murderers don't count, at least as far as I know. It's specifically related to crimes against deities.

I agree the Wall isn't great, and, frankly, I don't think it's been all that well developed lore wise, so there are a lot of inconsistencies around it (maybe that's why they're getting rid of it. Rather than wanting to go into detail, they just chose to omit it, in classic 5e fashion lol). In all seriousness though, Ed himself said on Twitter that those who actually end up on the Wall are very rare, and the Wall isn't the Big Bad it's often made out to be. It's more of a bogeyman's tale: real, but not a fate most have to worry about.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  03:45:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In all seriousness though, Ed himself said on Twitter that those who actually end up on the Wall are very rare, and the Wall isn't the Big Bad it's often made out to be. It's more of a bogeyman's tale: real, but not a fate most have to worry about.



And this is really problematic, at least for me. Saying that the Wall is not that bad because only a few are plastered there is like saying Hitler was not that bad because he just killed a few fellows, not all of humanity.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Nov 2020 :  05:00:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In all seriousness though, Ed himself said on Twitter that those who actually end up on the Wall are very rare, and the Wall isn't the Big Bad it's often made out to be. It's more of a bogeyman's tale: real, but not a fate most have to worry about.



And this is really problematic, at least for me. Saying that the Wall is not that bad because only a few are plastered there is like saying Hitler was not that bad because he just killed a few fellows, not all of humanity.



There's a difference between saying "it's not the thing it's made out to be" and saying "it's not that bad".

It's like talking about shark attacks: Yeah, the idea of shark attacks scares a lot of people -- but the number of people actually attacked by sharks is very small. Saying that doesn't mean shark attacks aren't serious, it's just saying that a lot of people who are worried about it are not anywhere close to being in danger of it happening.

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