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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  09:12:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's the goddess of Arcane Magic - the kind that comes out of the Weave. In fact, she IS The Weave (so sayeth Ed).

But we also have Shadow-Weave magic, which she has no say over, and we also had other types that didn't fall under her purview (Runic, Hishna & Plume, etc). There was even a different sort of magic called 'gem magic' that was associated with Chult, but we unfortunately never really saw any of it (its on the back cover of the Chult sourcebook... no-one ever bothers to read those). It was cut for space (along with the other map that was supposed to show the rest of the Chultan arm).

ANYHOW, my point is that in spite of her clergy preaching that she was 'the Goddess of ALL magic", we've known that to be a bold-face lie for quite some time. Cyric was stupid enough to believe it, but in time, even he learned it wasn't true. She can only 'shut down' magic derived from the Weave, which is really her ONLY portfolio (but still an insanely OP one). And other aspect of magic - especially RAW, which is the type that goes into the Weave - is handled by other gods. Its like the difference between 'crude oil' and refined kerosene (thats actually a very good analogy, when you think about the way Raw Magic has been described). So Mystra is just a cross between the AI of a mainframe and a refinery. Everything else is just the hype of her clergy (she's got GREAT PR).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2018 00:13:30
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2174 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2018 :  23:51:03  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I kind of look at it as, if magic (or arcane magic, if you want to be precise) were a pantheon, Mystra would be the "head" of that pantheon, with the other "magic gods" governing other aspects of magic. The Spellplague proved we can have magic without Mystra, but now that Mystra has returned, she has regained her "position as the head of the magic pantheon", so to speak.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2018 :  00:12:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ya know, for a 'supreme goddess' of just about anything, she sure is stupid, and she sure does DIE a lot.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2845 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2018 :  00:36:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

the SCAG has her as *the* goddess of magic again: "Mystra is the goddess of magic, and with that, the goddess of possibilities...Mystra is the essential force that makes all spell-casting possible. She provides and tends the Weave, the conduit through which mortal spellcasters and magical crafters can safely access the raw force of magic". (Pg 35)



This is was her priesthood want us to believe. An illuminati plot that wants to handwave the past 100 years of people doing magic safely without Mystra's aid. (?)



That was handled by Ed, tho, as he said that both Mystra and the Weave were still there during the Spellplague. While I agree with the sentiment here, the Spellplague was meant to prove that by the designers, but considering the recent developments, it really didn't.

As for me, I have both Mystra and certain other deities as sentient manifestations of forces/laws of nature (or of cosmic forces/laws, whatever). I really like this concept of a sentient weave of magic that connects everything (even tho I altered it and spun it in a different way), so I wanted to keep a deity of all magic in my FR. Those gods, however, truly are bound by their own nature, they cannot be killed, etc (unlike other deities, who are much more human-like).

They can however manifest avatars, and those can be influenced by interactions and experiences, and even become their own entity. The main deity can take in consideration the perspective of their avatar when taking some decision, but they, at their core, remain the embodiment of the force that they represent.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Feb 2018 00:39:10
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Balmar Foghaven
Seeker

Canada
72 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  18:46:37  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know, for a 'supreme goddess' of just about anything, she sure is stupid, and she sure does DIE a lot.




Yeeeaaahh... I feel like they handled her very poorly from the beginning. I'm sure there had to be a better way for Mystryl to stop Karsus than "let's end all magic and myself temporarily". Also second Mystra blatantly walking up to Helm during ToT was just asking to be killed.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6988 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2018 :  21:00:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know, for a 'supreme goddess' of just about anything, she sure is stupid, and she sure does DIE a lot.




Yeeeaaahh... I feel like they handled her very poorly from the beginning. I'm sure there had to be a better way for Mystryl to stop Karsus than "let's end all magic and myself temporarily". Also second Mystra blatantly walking up to Helm during ToT was just asking to be killed.



The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).

The Mystra walking up to Helm. Yeah, EITHER she was blatantly stupid OR there was some kind of underlying intrigue that would involve raising up a patsy in her place (Midnight) to die at the hands of another patsy (Cyric) a mere 27 years later. They simply played up the insanity of her actions, because as gods they figured their mortals would believe it. You know, like later Tyr actually getting in a fight with Heimda... errr Helm over a girl and killing him. Or the supposed god of lies being infected with his own lie and going mad. Man what gods and/or goddesses might have been involved with these intrigues and lies.... it would almost be like there would have to be some kind of god of prescience that would tell them what's going to happen..... and maybe some other god with some kind of focus on mental manipulation....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  00:02:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess Mystra the first made that stupidity because she believed that, being Ao's favorite, she would have it easy. Helm, however, is bound to its duty to the extreme...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6600 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  02:05:01  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra is arguably (or at least visibly) the single most powerful deity within the Faerunian pantheon. No lesser being would seem as "all-powerfully important" in grand Realms-altering (even cosmos-altering) events. So Mystra has been the most obvious choice for authors who want to convey the grand scope of things which cascade down from the very "top" tier.

[/Ayrik]
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  03:56:35  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).

-If I am remembering correctly, it was retconned or told with different details at least once, possibly more.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  08:51:04  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).

This would require her to act aggressively against her own portfolio. Which may be forbidden, or according to late Avatar books, simply impossible beyond "withdrawing the boon", and even then in very unambiguous circumstances.
IMO it's the best explanation why Mystra I sponsored Azuth's ascension: with different portfolio and priorities, he can watch her blind spot.
Mystra I worked even against the Magelords mostly in a very roundabout way.
Azuth dispenses the spanking when required, and hard cases were crushed. He would go spank Karsus, too. So maybe it was the whole point to begin with?

quote:
The Mystra walking up to Helm. Yeah, EITHER she was blatantly stupid OR there was some kind of underlying intrigue

Or a compulsion. Or desperation. Or... Either way, it's established that as The Avatars they not only were mostly reduced to mortal capabilities, but at least some were adversely affected by the merging and clearly didn't have all the marbles with them.
Let's look at the others. Waukeen tried a wild gamble. Clangeddin became some sort of WAAAGH hivemind. Labelas Enoreth gone cackling mad - despite him being the most procrastinating god in the pantheon plagued with procrastination and his host Vartan Hai Sylvar being a quite reasonable fellow - extremely so, considering he's a Gold elf after all.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6600 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  09:11:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra's confrontation with Helm was in the Avatar trilogy. An important premise in the trilogy was that the deities had become "blinded" by their own portfolios, unable (or at least unwilling) to perceive or think or act outside the limits and special interests of these portfolios. The gods and goddesses were exiled to the Realms as a punishment/lesson meant to broaden their perspectives and correct their ways, lol.

Mystra challenged Helm, thereby also challenging Ao's authority. Rather stupidly, I think, having already witnessed Tyr being blinded by Ao after daring to issue a verbal challenge about Ao's "injustice".

Mystra - like all the other avatars - was desperate to reclaim her power, and she thought she had access to "arcane" or "secret" knowledge/power/status which made her an exception and her actions acceptable.
She was mistaken. She was arrogant. She defied Ao's will. She was warned, then she was punished. No intrigue here.

Ao is the overgod in Realmslore. The supreme being. The one ultimate and absolute power over all other power.
Ao's proclamations and rules and decrees don't have to be "fair", "just", "popular", or even "sane".
He doesn't have to explain anything or accept any compromises. He's the boss. You don't like it, you get fired.

There's been some speculation in past scrolls about Mystra choosing to play this role and "fulfil her fate" so that Midnight could ascend. Mystra had cached some of her power away (in Midnight, in her Chosens, in other places) before the Time of Troubles. And Mystra would have be in a unique position to divine the future, plus she would be uniquely motivated to not be slain (disrupting the Weave and the Realms) like her predecessor was.
But Mystra's primary motivations and fatal results would be the same whether she "chose" to defy Ao or "was fated" to defy Ao.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Feb 2018 09:31:23
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Balmar Foghaven
Seeker

Canada
72 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  16:29:17  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I'll have to agree. It just seems too convenient to the plot that Mystra couldn't have foreseen such events. It must be, therefore, that there was some sort of hidden conspiracy - or destiny - involved.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6600 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  21:51:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a "hidden" conspiracy and destiny. Mystra had to die. It was one of the "predetermined" outcomes of the 1E-to-2E transition (meant to the the Realms fluff explaining "new" 2E magic rule crunch). It needed a story and so it was given a story within the context of a larger set of stories. The "conspirators" were the designers and authors at TSR/WotC.

[/Ayrik]
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
103 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2018 :  22:59:54  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra may have foreseen the rise of Cyric or worse, and sacrificed herself during the Time of Troubles in order to set events in motion that would prevent the worst case scenario.

If the future is malleable, and the past can be altered, then to be the Arbiter of Time means to see the possibilities of choice.


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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6988 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  01:33:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).

This would require her to act aggressively against her own portfolio. Which may be forbidden, or according to late Avatar books, simply impossible beyond "withdrawing the boon", and even then in very unambiguous circumstances.
IMO it's the best explanation why Mystra I sponsored Azuth's ascension: with different portfolio and priorities, he can watch her blind spot.
Mystra I worked even against the Magelords mostly in a very roundabout way.
Azuth dispenses the spanking when required, and hard cases were crushed. He would go spank Karsus, too. So maybe it was the whole point to begin with?




Not working against her portfolio. Essentially, everything was moving fine, and someone came in and shook all the "strings" for a few seconds while she was "distracted" doing something else. This even went so far as to destroy her and she had to reboot into another being, while the person who thought he could just suddenly jump from divine rank 0 to some huge divine rank had their spell effectively screw them because he pulled the underpinnings from beneath himself mid-transformation. So, he died too (and turned to "god stone") and magic went somewhat uncontrolled until the new Mystra could take over (and we've all wondered if that new Mystra wasn't already divine in some sort (or even a "construct"), so maybe that's why she was able to adapt quickly).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  03:15:17  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

She's the goddess of Arcane Magic - the kind that comes out of the Weave.
Uh, no. All magic uses the Weave unless it uses Shadow Weave (in which case it also uses the Weave, but very indirectly). Arcane, divine, innate...
quote:
In fact, she IS The Weave (so sayeth Ed).

Or sentience of the Weave (he phrased it in several ways), which is much the same most of the time (not counting deaths/shutdowns and ToT).
quote:
But we also have Shadow-Weave magic, which she has no say over, and we also had other types that didn't fall under her purview (Runic, Hishna & Plume, etc). There was even a different sort of magic called 'gem magic' that was associated with Chult, but we unfortunately never really saw any of it (its on the back cover of the Chult sourcebook... no-one ever bothers to read those). It was cut for space (along with the other map that was supposed to show the rest of the Chultan arm).

Nope. Shadow Weave is still a part of the Weave, that got somewhat broken and (tenuously) hijacked by Shar. It does not have an independent existence.
The rest are simply different ways of using the Weave. Which is why detect/dispel/antimagic/absorption/resistance work just as well for them.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Not working against her portfolio.
I mean, it was an unique, groundbreaking magical experiment - even if obviously a bad idea and predictably (though not necessarily) dangerous personally to her.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  03:24:08  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lurue is the font of magic in the Forgotten Realms...I wonder what would happen if SHE were slain?

Is she like the Questing Beast and simply can't be found/slain no matter how hard you try?

AD&D for me!
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
103 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  03:40:17  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Lurue is the font of magic in the Forgotten Realms...I wonder what would happen if SHE were slain?




The PowerPuff Girls enter Realmspace...


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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2018 :  04:16:22  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There was even a different sort of magic called 'gem magic' that was associated with Chult, but we unfortunately never really saw any of it (its on the back cover of the Chult sourcebook... no-one ever bothers to read those). It was cut for space (along with the other map that was supposed to show the rest of the Chultan arm).


-Gem Magic was given a brief write up in 3e Magic of Faerun, but it was kind of a let down. I am remembering something along the lines of attuning gemstones to "hold" magical spells that are cast in them. Definitely useful, but not really a new and exotic type of magic like Pluma and Hishna.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

686 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  02:34:06  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Frankly, trying to humanize the deities just turned them all into morons. Their portfolios are their jobs and their interests, but they shouldn't explicitly define how a god thinks. The avatar crisis turned Bane into Snidely Whiplash.

Ao slapping down the entire pantheon is also nonsensical. No other campaign setting has gods desperate on faith, otherwise Nerull and Boccob would be clinging to demipower status. Off the top of my head, the whole 'gods not doing right by their worshipers' thing could have been settled by Ao giving Myrkul free reign over the souls the other gods can't be half-arsed to collect. Yondalla can't exactly complain about Myrkul using halfling souls to build an outhouse for mortal visitors if she can't be arsed to send even a minor servant to herd halfling souls from the Fugue Plane to Arborea.

I mean, as far as we know, the gods were doing their jobs well, the whole worshipers thing aside.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  03:12:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Nope. Shadow Weave is still a part of the Weave, that got somewhat broken and (tenuously) hijacked by Shar. It does not have an independent existence.
The rest are simply different ways of using the Weave. Which is why detect/dispel/antimagic/absorption/resistance work just as well for them.
Actually, we had canon saying otherwise - Hishna and Pluma do NOT use the Weave, and rune Magic predates the Weave. Shadowmagic functions in places where Arcane magic doesn't (although they are connected somehow, but the definition of that connection has changed several times over the years).

So who's been telling you these lies? Wizards of the Coast? Its in the very name! Wizards are followers of Mystra - they can't be trusted. Basically, Mystra is only the 'Goddess of lots of deaths' LOL. She's just got the worlds greatest PR team.

On a more serious note, if the Weave is so important, how is it every single Torillian caster who leaves Realmspace can cast spells with nary a problem? The Weave is a great big LIE. The logic breaks down the moment you look at it too closely. Mordenkainen (who casts non-Weave spells ALL the time on Toril) laughs at your silly fake Weave!


Shar 2018: "Make Faerūn Great Again!"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 03:17:38
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
103 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  04:52:02  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Nope. Shadow Weave is still a part of the Weave, that got somewhat broken and (tenuously) hijacked by Shar. It does not have an independent existence.
The rest are simply different ways of using the Weave. Which is why detect/dispel/antimagic/absorption/resistance work just as well for them.
Actually, we had canon saying otherwise - Hishna and Pluma do NOT use the Weave, and rune Magic predates the Weave. Shadowmagic functions in places where Arcane magic doesn't (although they are connected somehow, but the definition of that connection has changed several times over the years).

So who's been telling you these lies? Wizards of the Coast? Its in the very name! Wizards are followers of Mystra - they can't be trusted. Basically, Mystra is only the 'Goddess of lots of deaths' LOL. She's just got the worlds greatest PR team.

On a more serious note, if the Weave is so important, how is it every single Torillian caster who leaves Realmspace can cast spells with nary a problem? The Weave is a great big LIE. The logic breaks down the moment you look at it too closely. Mordenkainen (who casts non-Weave spells ALL the time on Toril) laughs at your silly fake Weave!


Shar 2018: "Make Faerūn Great Again!"




To follow up:

There is a different Weave in practically every plane and crystal sphere, with potentially varying methods of maintenance and differences in how the Weaves interact with spellcasting.

Mystra only controls the Weave of Realmspace. The effects on other planes from the Spellplague is a result of interplanar connections enabling a cascading effect, similar to the waves created when dropping a stone into a body of water, or the spread of flame from an explosion.

The Weave is also not the only method to use magic. It is one of a number of different mediums through which magical energy can be drawn and "programmed" into spells.


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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 09 Feb 2018 04:54:25
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

686 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  16:15:24  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra's just one goddess. Whatever bizarre crap that's happening to her shouldn't affect worlds where Boccob, Odin, Thoth, Isis, Mathonwy, the Moon trio and so on are supreme. If anything, given that Mystra's revolving door deaths keep on wrecking magic, I'd expect to see a concentrated effort by other pantheons to quarantine the Realms.

I mean, with how often Mystra's deaths keep screwing things up, why hasn't AO simply dissolved Mystra's position and set several deities up as arbiters of the Weave, each ruling over a specific manifestation or usage of magic, like Savras and Velsharoon? A bunch of gods keeping things running is far more preferable than a greater god with no handy replacement in case of a crisis.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1042 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  17:10:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At this point? Because the players like Mystra.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3141 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  01:03:41  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

To follow up:

There is a different Weave in practically every plane and crystal sphere, with potentially varying methods of maintenance and differences in how the Weaves interact with spellcasting.

-Yes, but not exactly. In other worlds, there are other physics that allow magic to exist, but they don't necessarily have to have a set-up like the Forgotten Realms has, with (Mystra's) Weave.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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