Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Personality: King Graul
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2010 :  18:38:37  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
What ever happened to old King Graul...leader of over 100,000 Orcs...he was the Lord of Obould too. He was described as "Leader of the Ice Mountain Orcs" from way back.

AD&D for me!

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2010 :  03:55:04  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nobody?

Well, the things that I'm confounded by are: Graul was supposed to be Obould's King...

Graul was King of Orcs in the Ice Spires...

Obould went on to pull orcs from the Spine of the World...

What happened to this massive horde living in the Ice Spires? Even if we take out Obould's 40k orcs...that left Graul with 60k!

Anyone?

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2010 :  06:27:26  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nobody with some Orc Love eh?

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2010 :  19:05:01  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, definitely no orc love, here. Down with the pig faces!

The last time that I recall King Graul being mentioned was in The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier (2E, 1996). It just rehashed some of the info about Graul from The Savage Frontier (1E, 1988). TN:GTTSF is set in 1370 DR, after King Obould had been evicted from the Citadel of Many-Arrows, which seems to show that King Graul was still around at that point.

None of those sources tell us of Graul's demise.

But here is a possible clue:
quote:
Obould is a fearsome opponent in battle. Over the years, he subsumed other tribes into his own [...]. (FRCS 3E)

So I suppose that it is possible that, sometime between TN:GTTSF in 1370 DR and FRCS 3E in 1372 DR, King Obould somehow subsumed King Graul's Ice Mountain Orcs into his extended empire of orcs.

It is possible that Obould defeated Graul in mid-to-late 1370 DR leading up to his campaign in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" (1371 DR).

If so, and Obould acquired tens of thousands of more orc warriors in that manner, why then was the first book of that trilogy called The Thousand Orcs? "The Tens of Thousands of Orcs" would've been more accurate. Did the Tribe of Many-Arrows completely annihilate the Ice Mountain Orcs?

Indeed, one very weird thing in all of this is the canon number of Obould's troops. Earlier sources listed him as having 40,000 troops (before being evicted from the citadel), compared to Graul's 60,000 (TSF, TN:GTTSF). So why, then, are we later told that the even more powerful King Obould has an army of "over two thousand" troops (FRCS 3E)? Did he become more powerful, removed from the security of his former citadel, with even fewer troops?

It wouldn't make much sense that Obould had defeated Graul but still only had 40,000 troops. It would make even less sense if he had defeated Graul and only had 2,000 troops. Wouldn't the new Kingdom of Many-Arrows require even more troops than ever before, rather than fewer? So it appears that the official troop numbers may have to be disregarded, at any rate, but especially so if Obould truly did defeat Graul.

Or, Graul possibly just died of some other causes unrelated to Obould whatsoever (internal tribal bickering, old age, disease, etc.).

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">

Edited by - BEAST on 31 Jul 2010 19:12:21
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2010 :  19:14:20  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FR5 9233 (The Savage Frontier) states that Obould has 1,000 Orcs "on Duty" another 1,000 Orcs "on Patrol" but in times of need, he can summon forth 18,000 Orcs. I'm guessing the other 22,000 are females, whelps and such...but I'm with you Beast, if he can call up 18k Orcs when he is the vassal of another Orc King...where are all those warriors when the rothe-dung hit the fan in later writings?

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  18:59:32  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyone ever find/remember seeing any more information about Graul...or what happened to the tens of thousands of Orcs?

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5103 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:25:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No it was never dealt with as 3E anointed Obould as one of their icons of the new edition so Graul got shunted.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:58:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a VERY cold winter and they all got frozen? Somewhere way up north is an Orc king and his horde, just waiting to thaw-out.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  22:45:39  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

What ever happened to old King Graul...leader of over 100,000 Orcs...
Sauce?
quote:
He was described as "Leader of the Ice Mountain Orcs" from way back.

Ice Mountains are a small range. Where orcs didn't have any sort of united realm. As such, he probably was the leader of the strongest tribe.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There was a VERY cold winter and they all got frozen? Somewhere way up north is an Orc king and his horde, just waiting to thaw-out.

They aren't fungal Warhammer Orcs.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:03:21  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well how in the Hells do they explain the vanishing of an entire damn horde of orcs and their VERY powerful Orc King????

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2190 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:36:23  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that is because Obould is a scro and called in an airstrike in order to become supreme orc/scro of faerun

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:38:49  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there any lore that says Obould ISN'T related to Graul? That could explain how there was no major war: Obould, the most powerful warlord, inherited Graul's mantle because nobody was strong enough or brave enough to go against him.

AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  01:03:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With Orcs, its usually not so much hereditary, as it is 'the strongest'. But thanks to DNA and 'tough love', a lot of times that does tend to be the last King's kid.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:04:22
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  10:01:20  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Well how in the Hells do they explain the vanishing of an entire damn horde of orcs and their VERY powerful Orc King????

Again, where he got 1000,000 orcs? FRwiki says he's that guy who with his tribe and external support attacked 1 (one) old ranger allied with 1 (one) young drow and some sort of 1 (one) tree cat, but had to retreat.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  22:41:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Occam's Razor, I think, applies here. Graul's Orcs became Obould's orcs, over time. Tribes kept joining him throughout the novels. Ignore any numbers RAS gives (and maybe even the 3e sourcebooks, which were WRONG the day they were printed just because of Obould). Obould's meteoric rise explains a LOT. he had many battles, and lost tons of 'his' orcs, but they were constantly being replenished as he siphoned-off Graul's orcs. That's all that was. Attrition.

Plus, groups of them must have encountered stuff along the way - there is even lore about how giants got displaced out of the Spine of the World because of everything that was going on (Obould had a 'join me or die' policy in regards to other 'monsters'). Those giants mostly fled to the Evermoors, and thus, displaced the trolls and other critters from there - that's all canon. So orcs weren't simply stomping all over the north, marching to Obould, without opposition. there were probably hundreds of battles we never hear about, involving small settlements we didn't even know about.

And lastly, right around that time there was a lot of trouble brewing to the north, in Hartsvale. the Hartsvale giants (and Ogres) were getting 'uppity', so there aggressions may not have only been turned inward, and they were soundly defeated, which means a lot of tribes probably got displaced, and were moving around after the novel series was over. Right into the Ice Spires Mountains (which do appear on the Giant-novel maps), where'd they run afoul of Graul's orcs.

In the end, I think all Graul was left with was his personal tribe - all the other switched their allegiances to Obould.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 22:42:47
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000