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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 03:36:55
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Re-reading Lost Empires of Faerun, and paying more attention to the Netherees diaspora than I have previously, my mind turned thuswards:
(In brief, aside from Netheril, how did the Creator Races' magic practices influence those used in the Faerun of today?)
Most 'modern' (take your pick, but any edition not involving time travel) usage of the Art, across most of Faerun, is descended from the practices of the Netherese. Said practices based on the teachings of the Nether Scrolls, which are the Sarrukh observations on the primitive practices of various races. (And, I surmise, their own magics, though perhaps not...) Aeree and Batrachi influences made their way in.
The gnomish facility with illusions was enhanced by one gnome's glimpse at a Nether Scroll.
Now, what other practices survive the aeons?
Elven magic, specifically high magic, comes from their Fae heritage. (And may also draw upon some things learned during the Time of Dragons) They did read the Nether Scrolls before Netheril, though...
Rune Magic likely originated with giants, debatedly among the Creator Races.
Imaskar did more with portals/extradimensional spaces than anyone else; I want to give credit to humans for refining the 'primitive traditions' observed by the Sarrukh into that.
Raumathar and Narfell were somewhat concurrent with Netheril; did their magics originate within their culture, or draw upon learnings of Imaskar? I know fiends can teach magic...
Southern Magic: I need to re-read Old Empires, but I believe this is a blend of magic from the Mulan homeworld, and that of Imaskar. Or was Imaskari magic shunned by them?
Did Calimshan/the Shoon Imperium learn aught from the genies?
Who have I missed, among renowned regional civilizations? I am ignoring Jhaamdath, for obvious reasons.
Lastly, what differences might these practices result in? Southern Magic is notably distinct, but how might, say, the Rope Trick of a standard Hathran (possible Imaskari influence) differ from that cast by a Halruan or a Calishite?
Apologies if this sort of musing has come up recently.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 06:19:15
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I had it where various 'branches' of magic originated with the different Creator Races (which I dubbed 'Creatori', because its easier than repeating the other thing over and over again during discussions).
For example, the Fey where very good at portal/dimensional magic, and the Imaskari picked it up from them (see the novel Darkvision by Bruce Cordell). I also associated each Creatori with an element -
Fey - Earth
Aearee - Air
Sarrukh - Fire
Batrachi - Water
Humans - 'Life', or alloy (the 5th element - a combination of the other five)
There was also the Shadvari, mentioned in one of the 2e god books - you could possibly associate them with the 6th (non)element - Void.
Narfell & Raumathar were both Imaskari survivor states (as was the Old Empires, and even Shou-Lung). My assumption there is that the Narfelli ran with the portal (fiend summoning) magics, and the Raumathari eventually went with Imaskari 'artificer' heritage (but only once they entered into war with Narfell - before that they had more of a druid/nature magic bend to their culture - see the novel Frostfell by Mark Sehestedt). One could contribute that to the ancient Fey teachings to imaskar as well (perhaps one of the Imaskarkana focused on this in particualr, and the Raumathari had that - I like to imagine each 'survivor state' got at least one of the Imaskarkana, hence why they all went in such different directions).
Southern magic WAS brought-over with the Pharonic pantheon (nothing similar in Imaskar, as far as we know). It was a combination of Arcane and Divine Magic (they could cast either, like those specialty priests of Mystra). So not so much as different magic, but rather, they had 'sorcerer priests' who didn't suffer the limitations of western (northern) magic. One could probably credit Thoth for southern magic, especially its peculiar (non-D&Dish) written form. His priests were probably very similar to Mystra's (He may have even been the 'High magic God' of D&D Earth - Mystra's extra-dimensional equivalent). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2016 06:28:38 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 12:16:01
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Elven magic didn't have much of anything do with Netherese magic. Actually, it was the reverse. Elves taught the very early Netherese magic, and then the Netherese tossed it away for the variant they learned from the Nether Scrolls (which, aside from a different tradition, didn't use somatic components).
One of the requirements the elves put on accepting Netherese refugees was that their wizards give up the "bastardized" (from the elven point of view) way of casting magic and return to a more controlled manner. That may not hold for the survivor states (while they survived), but those who filtered west and south can fairly safely be said to have taken up elven spellcasting methods again.
I'm also unsure about your postulate about elven magic being fae. Most elven magic practiced today came from the moon and gold elves, who brought a full-formed magical tradition over from their destroyed world. Most of the earliest (green and dark) elves remained primitive or were enslaved by the dragons. Only Atornash, and to a lesser extent all of Ilythiir, was civilized enough to delve deeply into magic, and most of that got proscribed and/or lost when they were driven underground as drow (see Councilors and Kings for an example of the fear just finding a Ilythiiri spell can evoke).
So most magic in the Faerunian heartlands is a descendent of elven magic, with influences from Netheril and other realms, and has its roots in a different world altogether. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 20:42:48
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I've always pictured Elven High Magic based upon ancient Fey magic, and since fey were masters of 'dimensional manipulation', I theorize that a LOT of their High magic was based upon manipulation of the Temporal Prime (Time Stream), which is just another dimension in D&D.
In other words, they found a way to utilize the 'Butterfly Effect', in that by changing one small thing in the past, they could achieve the desired results in the future (their present). Unfortunately, this sort of magic had WILDLY unpredictable results, which is why in almost every instance of High Magic we see, we also see catastrophic death & destruction. For example, when they decided to create their own 'piece of Faerie' (Evermeet) in The Realms, they used High Magic, which tapped into The Sundering and literally ripped Tintageer (sp?) from its moorings in the Feywild and recreated it on Toril. Thus, by securing their future, they actually created their own tragic past. Elven hubris, for you.
I think the Nether Scrolls taught another way to do magic at that level of power (Epic magic), using 'seeds', and the Elves eventually caught on to that and switched. Elven 'High Magic' is rarely used anymore, because of all the problems its caused in the past (quite literally).
I also think that the Netherese used 'shortcut' magic learned from the scrolls (something that must have been developed by at least one of the Creatori) - the use of Quasi-magical items powered by a (self-aware) device that generated an area of magical power (the Mythallars). The idea that they got this from the Nether Scrolls - The Golden Skins of The World Serpent - makes perfect sense, in that its related to how so many groups now use Celestial Titans (Primordials) to power their own magic post-3e. Who else would know how to tap into this sort of primal power other than the Creator Races?
I also still think there is still a 3rd set of the Nether scrolls, hidden somewhere in 'The East'. Why would THREE races create TWO sets of scrolls? 
Lastly, Imaskar used related magic, but of a more conventional nature - they also bound creatures of immense power (everything from Imps to genies to Elder Evils) - but that was Arcane magic - magic that was already part of the Prime Material (which includes the elemental Planes). The 'Primal Energy' that is associated with primordials is more of a 'Raw' magic - the kind mortals can't use directly. Although the Elder Evils may have had this 'Raw' magic as well (Eldritch' Magic?). The Fey - being the only Creatori NOT associated with the Nether Scrolls - probably made sure the Imaskari steered clear of that dangerous path.
Disclaimer: This is a TON of supposition based on a huge number of canon bits spread all over the place, that may of may not have been related before. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2016 20:51:52 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 21:16:42
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I think we need to agree to disagree here. Especially since I refuse to consider anything from 4e to be in any way related to the Realms. 
Though I do think you're mis-remembering Evermeet (or maybe I am, it's been awhile since I read it too). Tintageer was the name of the world/island (sources conflict) that the gold and moon elves were escaping. It had been destroyed by some manner of other-elf-induced apocalypse.
What the elves were trying to do with their later ritual was bring a piece of Arvandor to the Realms, to serve as the ultimate haven. I think. Like I said, it's been awhile since I read Evermeet.
Finally, unless I'm missing something from a 3e book, I don't think either the Batrachi or Aearee had anything to do with the creation of the Nether Scrolls. Those were made by the sarrukh near present-day Anauroch, and none of the Batrachi or Aearee realms were anywhere near there. That isolated pocket of sarrukh got started on their research and then just continued in isolation for several thousand years until they finished. In which case there being two sets makes perfect sense: one was the backup copy.  |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 01 Oct 2016 21:18:06 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 01:50:41
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@Hoondatha - Back when I used to think about a lot of this stuff, I always tried to make ALL the lore work together... yes, even 4e (and later 5e).
Its widely believed that what happened to Tintageer was linked to the creation of Evermeet - its even hinted at in a vingette in the GHotR. I not misremembering anything - its been a theory for quite some time now that one was a reflection of the other (and as I said, that theory was even somewhat supported in the GHotR). All I added-in was my own homebrew that 'Elven high Magic' effects time and/or probabilities.
As for the Batrachi and Aearee, they were members of the Ba'etith - the secret organization that penned the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (Nether Scrolls). Thats NOT conjecture. I can't find the original source for that, but in SK (pg.97) it says that the Hall of Mists was the original headquarters of the Ba'etith, and that all three races controlled it at one point or another. I'll have to check older sources for the origin of that info.
@Dazzerdal - I don't think I read George's Jergal article (and if its on the TEGG site, then I can't view it). However, I've had the privilege of seeing a related work, so I am familiar with the facts contained therein (because the High Forest sourcebook got heavily into all of that, which I believe was based off of Krash's work on Jergal... before anyone else saw it). 
Although in the High Forest material, I don't recall the 3rd set being mentioned (as I said, it was an early version I was 'in on'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Oct 2016 19:53:37 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 04:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Dazzerdal - I don't think I read George's Jergal article (and if its on the TEGG site, then I can't view it). However, I've had the privilege of seeing a related work, so I am familiar with the facts contained therein (because the High Forest sourcebook got heavily into all of that, which I believe was based off of Krash's work on Jergal... before anyone else saw it).
Although in the High Forest material, I don't recall the 3rd set being mentioned (as I said, it was an early version I was 'in on').
I proposed a slightly tweaked version of what Eric came up with.
If you want a read, drop me an e-mail (I have a recent, new address: check my profile) and I'll send you through a copy.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 05:29:27
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I stand corrected on the Ba'etith. I mis-remembered them to being based in Isstosseffifil entirely, as opposed to merely being founded there. Thanks for the source.
It does make me wonder anew just what was down in the Hall of Mists that so scared the elves when they first found the place. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 12:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had it where various 'branches' of magic originated with the different Creator Races (which I dubbed 'Creatori', because its easier than repeating the other thing over and over again during discussions).
For example, the Fey where very good at portal/dimensional magic, and the Imaskari picked it up from them (see the novel Darkvision by Bruce Cordell). I also associated each Creatori with an element -
Fey - Earth
Aearee - Air
Sarrukh - Fire
Batrachi - Water
Humans - 'Life', or alloy (the 5th element - a combination of the other five)
There was also the Shadvari, mentioned in one of the 2e god books - you could possibly associate them with the 6th (non)element - Void.
Narfell & Raumathar were both Imaskari survivor states (as was the Old Empires, and even Shou-Lung). My assumption there is that the Narfelli ran with the portal (fiend summoning) magics, and the Raumathari eventually went with Imaskari 'artificer' heritage (but only once they entered into war with Narfell - before that they had more of a druid/nature magic bend to their culture - see the novel Frostfell by Mark Sehestedt). One could contribute that to the ancient Fey teachings to imaskar as well (perhaps one of the Imaskarkana focused on this in particualr, and the Raumathari had that - I like to imagine each 'survivor state' got at least one of the Imaskarkana, hence why they all went in such different directions).
Southern magic WAS brought-over with the Pharonic pantheon (nothing similar in Imaskar, as far as we know). It was a combination of Arcane and Divine Magic (they could cast either, like those specialty priests of Mystra). So not so much as different magic, but rather, they had 'sorcerer priests' who didn't suffer the limitations of western (northern) magic. One could probably credit Thoth for southern magic, especially its peculiar (non-D&Dish) written form. His priests were probably very similar to Mystra's (He may have even been the 'High magic God' of D&D Earth - Mystra's extra-dimensional equivalent).
I do agree with you mostly so I will just add my elemental asociation of creators as a food for thoughts:
Fey - Air
Aearee - Fire
Sarrukh - Earth
Batrachi - Water
I do not agree with origin of elven High Magic but I do not want to brag about that here again. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 16:05:36
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SK says "more than 13,000 years ago." That generally means more than 13, but less than 14. Which would put it right in the Vyshaan time period, just as they were starting to kick off the First Crown War. More or less.
So yeah, something really scary. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 16:07:40
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As I see it Ba'etith was a sarrukh only weapon research facility aimed agains Batrachi. Evereska, High Moor and High Forest elven settlements are sitting on it and it is in cannon that netheries had to steal the scrolls from under elven protection so they surely knew there is something if they guarded it. Netheries only succeeded because somebody (Teraseer) has told them exactly where to look and how to get in. Elves were then quite unhappy when they found out what happened and stealed most of the scrolls back with the help of gnome slaves of Netheril. It really sounds like elves are above the issue and they only want to protect poor humans from harm...
Just to complete the thought as I have already picked it up - I believe that elven high magic is a form learned from Nether Scrolls and that is exactly why they have been so protective about it. I know there is a lot of firm believers in elven uniqueness so this is just my theory that kind of stares at me from the given lore. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 16:10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
SK says "more than 13,000 years ago." That generally means more than 13, but less than 14. Which would put it right in the Vyshaan time period, just as they were starting to kick off the First Crown War. More or less.
So yeah, something really scary.
Something like High-Moor-blasting like scale of scary? *wink* |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 18:01:12
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Nah - I'd say something bigger and badder would be more interesting. High magic is more of a personal thing in my mind - not a weapon locked away under a tree :).
Maybe an elder evil is sealed away inside as well... I would say Malkazid was locked in there until freed by the Vyshaan but that would require some serious storytelling to link him with the Serpent Folk and have him be their enemy for some reason. So I'm going to move on from that thought.
Another option is a powerful somnolent serpent entity, perhaps one of the aspects of the world serpent Merrshaulk / Ssharstrune / Sssthasiness / Varae. I think Merrshaulk would not work because he was too active, but the others might. Then the nether scrolls were originally offered up to one of their serpent gods as some kind of offering which failed to wake them and save the empire from collapse... I'm liking this idea... |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 11:14:24
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Sarrukh have left those scrolls, but there are reasons to doubt whether scrolls really contain knowledge or extract it. In the latter case, they still presumably make the result compatible with Sarrukh methodology and classify in the pre-arranged way, but that's about it.
Aearee have living descendants - Kenku and Aarakocra, but neither of those are great students of magic. There may be more depending on whether Avariel are their descendants too. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 20:03:43
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Dazzerdal - I don't think I read George's Jergal article (and if its on the TEGG site, then I can't view it). However, I've had the privilege of seeing a related work, so I am familiar with the facts contained therein (because the High Forest sourcebook got heavily into all of that, which I believe was based off of Krash's work on Jergal... before anyone else saw it).
Although in the High Forest material, I don't recall the 3rd set being mentioned (as I said, it was an early version I was 'in on').
I proposed a slightly tweaked version of what Eric came up with.
If you want a read, drop me an e-mail (I have a recent, new address: check my profile) and I'll send you through a copy.
I'll have to get on that, then. I just assumed they would be the same, hence my not having looked into it sooner. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 05:25:45
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Such a torrent of knowledge to wade through! Truly, the sages here humble me with their knowledge. Thank you for sharing your insights
I had no idea that the Imaskari learned aught from the Fae; Darkvision will now be sought out.
George Krashos' work on Jergal was also previously unknown to me; and very impressive. Spellweavers were something not previously on my radar.(I read the version on Realms Secretariat; is there another version?)
So, Imaskari portal-craft was original/fae-derived, but they had access to the Nether Scrolls later during their history.
Can anyone comment on Calishite magical traditions? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 08:23:36
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There isn't much in the Darkvision novel, so don't get your hopes up. Just a single scene where the main character finds an ancient cave complex with some base-reliefs on the walls, and at least one depicted Fey giving something to the Imaskari (The Imaskarkana, perhaps? Or some early version of them?)
There are hints in the Calimshan books that the original wave of genies and their entourage (Djen) came from 'elsewhere' (and even 'elsewhen'). There is also a catastrophic event in the Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material called the 'scattering of Fate', which involved the genies, and human hubris, and how 'Fate' (their over-power) drove all of them from the (once-lush) lands of Zakhara. So my assumption here is that the two events are one and the same, or are at least related (in my homebrew stuff, I actually push it back much further and involve the Rakshasa, but that's beyond conjecture at that point).
Thus, Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan/Arabian style magic, involving noble elementals (genies), and 'sorcerer' style mages (so a lot of summoning/extra-dimensional type magic, plus a lot of illusion - another school the Fey excel at, BTW). So figure more 'trickery' (subtlety) to their magic then their northern neighbors (like the Netherese), and only using extreme force when necessary (so perhaps even more economical in their usage). When you have to depend upon fiends/genies to do a lot of your 'heavy lifting', you don't want to 'owe too many favors', IMO.
And it would also be related to Imaskari magic, but only because both are descended from the same region and peoples (the Mujhari people who first settled the Golden water and Raurin areas came from the south as well). So think of both branches of magic as having a 'common ancestor'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2016 05:10:17 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 09:21:53
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| Not FR, but worth a mention anyway, Paizo did some fun stuff with genies and their wishcraft in their Legacy of Fire AP. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 14:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There isn't much in the Darkvision novel, so don't get your hopes up. Just a single scene where the main character finds an ancient cave complex with some base-reliefs on the walls, and at least one depicted Fey giving something to the Imaskari (The Imaskarkana, perhaps? Or some early version of them?)
There are hints in the Calimshan books that the original wave of genies and their entourage (Djen) came from 'elsewhere' (and even 'elsewhen'). There is also a catastrophic event in the Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material called the 'scattering of Fate', which involved the genies, and human hubris, and how 'Fate' (their over-power) drove all of them from the (once-lush) lands of Zakhara. So my assumption here is that the two events are one and the same, or are at least related (in my homebrew stuff, I actually push it back much further and involve the Rakshasa, but that's beyond conjecture at that point).
Thus, Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan/Arabian style magic, involving noble elementals (genies), and 'sorcerer' style mages (so a lot of summoning/extra-dimensional type magic, plus a lot of illusion - another school the Fey excel at, BTW). So figure more 'trickery' (subtlety) to their magic then their northern neighbors (like the Netherese), and only using extreme force when necessary (so perhaps even more economical in their usage). When you have to depend upon fiends/genies to do a lot of your 'heavy lifting', you don't want to 'owe too many favors', IMO.
And it would also be related to Imaskari magic, but only because both are descended from the same region and peoples (the Mujhari people who first settled the Golden water and Raurin areas came from the south as well). So think of both branches of magic as having a 'common ancestor'.
I do not like the connection of Fey to Imaskari so I am glad that there is no clear information in that book. Some present it as a fact but from your description it seems to me it is a conjecture only.
I have to find a time to look at Al-qadim books as this Fate event seems right into my theory/non-canon change :-) (Mulhorandi/Untheric people were abducted from Zakhara not from different world) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 17:33:05
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| I remember liking that one, despite my tendency to NOT like the novels that tried to tie a lot of lore together in one place, so I'd say its still worth a read. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 17:33:25
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| I don't like fae as a creator race at all, so I don't blame you. :) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 20:55:20
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Fey as a Creator Race works for me, only in that they didn't actively create lots of other races (as I think the other, non-human, ones did), but rather, their 'fluid' nature means they were able to become all sorts of creatures themselves - forms most of them are 'locked into' at this point, because they've lost their connection to the Feywild (Faerie). So, NOT like the others, but still can lumped in with them.
As for their location, THAT works perfectly within my own Homebrew/conjecture, because I think the Hanya Maut Wasteland (just east of the Yehimals) is the perfect site for the Black Diamond affair (former location of Ladinion). Fey ARE 'spirits' (in Eastern mythology, including KT), and this is FR canon because in UE: 'Spiritfolk' are Half-Fey. A lot of people don't seem to care for the idea that Fey originated in the east, but in a completely FR (non-Earth) framework, it makes perfect sense. The other Creatori seem to have all come from the area of western Faerūn.
And if you don't lend much credence to the importance of what being a 'Creator Race' means (as I do, but I add-in a LOT of conjecture), then the list itself could be more variable, depending on what culture you ask. For example, I doubt Elves would include humans, but they most certainly would include dragons. The dwarves might count Giants as a 'Creator'. So, it all depends on your perspective (and, of course, how you want to spin things in your own games). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Oct 2016 20:56:11 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 21:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is also a catastrophic event in the Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material called the 'scattering of Fate', which involved the genies, and human hubris, and how 'Fate' (their over-power) drove all of them from the (once-lush) lands of Zakhara. So my assumption here is that the two events are one and the same, or are at least related
[...]
Thus, Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan/Arabian style magic, involving noble elementals (genies), and 'sorcerer' style mages
And now let's shave this with Occam's Razor:
Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan magic, because we know they had strong common influences - the genies.
Anauroch too (some of the local spells are the same: Sand Jambiya, Wind Compass, Flying Jambiya, Pillar of Sand, Sand Shadow, Find Water, Whispering Sand, Wind Shadow, Conjure Sand Lion, Wind Blade, Death Smoke, Flesh Mirage, Sand Shroud, Sun Stone, Cleanse Water, Sand Worm, Life Water) - but IIRC they're related directly. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 01:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Sarrukh have left those scrolls, but there are reasons to doubt whether scrolls really contain knowledge or extract it. In the latter case, they still presumably make the result compatible with Sarrukh methodology and classify in the pre-arranged way, but that's about it.
Aearee have living descendants - Kenku and Aarakocra, but neither of those are great students of magic. There may be more depending on whether Avariel are their descendants too.
Hmmm, I was just wondering if the Ee'aar (winged elves of Mystara) and Aearee had some linkage. Seems I wasn't the only one. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 06:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I was just wondering if the Ee'aar (winged elves of Mystara) and Aearee had some linkage. Seems I wasn't the only one.
I pasted the two together and use the Raptorans from RotW - there is more there on them in that book than anything on Avarial (Ee'aar) and Aarakocra (Aearee) elsewhere - not counting the Mystara stuff. More of a 'game thing' than an 'FR lore thing'. At least there was mechanics and what-not (and they look like a blend of Elf and 'Birdman').
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Anauroch too (some of the local spells are the same: Sand Jambiya, Wind Compass, Flying Jambiya, Pillar of Sand, Sand Shadow, Find Water, Whispering Sand, Wind Shadow, Conjure Sand Lion, Wind Blade, Death Smoke, Flesh Mirage, Sand Shroud, Sun Stone, Cleanse Water, Sand Worm, Life Water) - but IIRC they're related directly.
The Bedine came from Zakhara, at least in original sources. Later sources say they were decendents of the Netherese. I would say the original Bedine were from Zakhara, but then they allowed many refugees from Netherese survivor-states to join their tribes (as the desert swallowed up their lands).
I had tried to link that translocation to the Scattering of Fate, but that happened too far back in the past (maybe... not sure now... Zakharan lore actually doesn't go all that far back). So I later 'fixed' it (in the Utter East material) by saying the Portals Fate used to 'scoop up' the Old Zakharans and send them elsewhere are still around - some, at least. They move about randomly at this point, in mostly desolate locations, and are only rarely stumbled upon. The Bedine, apparently, had the misfortune of finding one. All home-brew, of course (except for the canon that the Bedine DID come from Zakhara). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2016 07:01:52 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 15:54:57
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I had tried to weave the Phaerimm into all that, because there is a tenuous racial connection...
The Mujhari were an 'Arabian-like' people who settled the Golden Waters region. Some went further north and became the Imaskari. Now, given their culture and appearance, I assume they came from the south - the Utter East - and were probably another group driven out of Zakhara during the Scattering of Fate.
The Bedine were a much later group of Zakharans that wound-up in Anauroch.
Timeline:
The Phaerimm were a problem for the Sarrukh, who used a fey-like (High Elven ) ritual to cause a dramatic geological change in their lands, flooding the Phaerimm tunnels and driving them out (and I'm not sure why that would even be, given what the Phaerimm are, and how powerful they are, but whatever).
Now, the Mujhari (Zakharans) turned Imaskari had a problem with the Phaerimm, and actually managed to defeat them and drive them out.
A few thousand years later, the Phaerimm are apparently back in the Anauroch region and pestering the Netherese. Now, for all their magical might and hubris, apparently the Netherese were lousy at 'pest control'. What two other magically potent groups seemed to have done with apparent ease, the Netherese could not accomplish, and were destroyed by the Phaerimm. Just to keep things logical, I theorize a lot of that had to do with the direction their magic took - psuedo-magical - which is extremely vulnerable to magic-eating creatures. Karsus probably figured that out, and hence his research into 'Raw' magic. We all know how wonderfully that all turned out.
ANYHOW... We have a (human) Zakharan-descendant group battling the Phaerimm, and later we have a different Zakharan-descendant group in a desert full of Phaerimm. Of course, it could easily just be coincidence; they are drawn to magic. But the appearance of the Bedine is a bit too coincidental (in FR, it appears that all you need do is create a desert using magic, and Zakharans show up... like in Calimshan... except that happened in reverse). Could there be some sort of ancient connection between the peoples of Zakhara and the Phaerimm? An ethnic group known for trafficking with 'interdimensional beings of power'? If the Phaerimm are some sort of cosmic 'magic rat' attracted to the magical scraps of civilizations, could all that genie-magic have brought them into FR in the first place?
But the Bedine came after the Phaerimm became a problem. AFTER they apparently 'won'. Could Fate have intervened there? Is there something to the summoning/elemental magic (sorcery) that is useful against the Phaerimm? And what about the Sarrukh? It seems the one 'Creator Race' they had no truck with were the fey - the (fabled) teachers of the Imaskari. Is there another connection there as well? Were the Phaerimm some sort of biological weapon used by one against the other, that got out of hand?
Just a quasi-theory at this point, mind you. I haven't woven any of that into my 'Theory of everything'. I like to have a good story to go with lore (that, I feel, is what makes it 'good' lore). Lots of little connections, but no really good way to weave it all together. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2016 16:02:07 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Pedigree of Magic, from Creator Races on
