| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| muir |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 03:36:55
Re-reading Lost Empires of Faerun, and paying more attention to the Netherees diaspora than I have previously, my mind turned thuswards:
(In brief, aside from Netheril, how did the Creator Races' magic practices influence those used in the Faerun of today?)
Most 'modern' (take your pick, but any edition not involving time travel) usage of the Art, across most of Faerun, is descended from the practices of the Netherese. Said practices based on the teachings of the Nether Scrolls, which are the Sarrukh observations on the primitive practices of various races. (And, I surmise, their own magics, though perhaps not...) Aeree and Batrachi influences made their way in.
The gnomish facility with illusions was enhanced by one gnome's glimpse at a Nether Scroll.
Now, what other practices survive the aeons?
Elven magic, specifically high magic, comes from their Fae heritage. (And may also draw upon some things learned during the Time of Dragons) They did read the Nether Scrolls before Netheril, though...
Rune Magic likely originated with giants, debatedly among the Creator Races.
Imaskar did more with portals/extradimensional spaces than anyone else; I want to give credit to humans for refining the 'primitive traditions' observed by the Sarrukh into that.
Raumathar and Narfell were somewhat concurrent with Netheril; did their magics originate within their culture, or draw upon learnings of Imaskar? I know fiends can teach magic...
Southern Magic: I need to re-read Old Empires, but I believe this is a blend of magic from the Mulan homeworld, and that of Imaskar. Or was Imaskari magic shunned by them?
Did Calimshan/the Shoon Imperium learn aught from the genies?
Who have I missed, among renowned regional civilizations? I am ignoring Jhaamdath, for obvious reasons.
Lastly, what differences might these practices result in? Southern Magic is notably distinct, but how might, say, the Rope Trick of a standard Hathran (possible Imaskari influence) differ from that cast by a Halruan or a Calishite?
Apologies if this sort of musing has come up recently.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 20:13:52
If I were ever to write it up for the guild (or whatever), I would change the name (probably just shift a couple of letters around).
Basically, the guy used a Helm of Two Minds to be able to create his enclave, and then shear a second piece off the bottom, creating a flat disk. The first (flat) piece he headed out toward K-T, while he himself was on the second (conical) piece. When Mysryl fell (Karsus' Folly), his mind could no longer handle the 'split'. The mountaintop shot into space (and eventually became the first Dwarven SJ Citadel). The flat piece was going to Krash into Shou-Lung, but the 'Giants in Grey' intervened, and managed to guide it to the coast (so it wouldn't harm anyone in K-T), and then let it sink beneath the waves. Some of the people on it survived, though, and became Sea-Kin. Seluj himself fell like a fiery comet somewhere in the Yehimals. The mountain he used, BTW, was one of the Yehimals - the flat mountain top he created by stealing its 'peak' later became The Dock - a Spelljamming port.
So the name for the archmage came from the fact that I named the now subsea city the 'Nautilus Enclave'. The name caused all the lore to grow out of that.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 18:52:29
Jules verne huh.
I like the idea of an enclave heading east and just carrying on to kara tur. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 18:32:46
There was an entry in the GHotR where the Imaskari (probably an out-lying region) spotted a flying city "in the distance". Thats as close to contact as they came. That was one of the many entries that were dropped from the book for space reasons.
I ran with that for my homebrew lore on Enrev Seluj, Half-Calishite Archmage extraordinaire - it was his city that was spotted, en route to the eastern realms (Kara-Tur). That (non-canon) city was over K-T when the Sundering of Webs (Netherfall?) ocurred, and wound-up underwater just off the coast of K-T. It was my (FR) version of an 'Eastern Atlantis' (Mu).
EDIT: I also had some other, non-related homebrew lore regarding Halaster (Hilather) - that he was actually 'amongst them' for a time, and was the one responsible for the founding of the Sargauth Enclave, which he later moved to post-Netherfall. The fact that he was able to move about freely (and may have even been one of the famous archmages) without the Terraseer knowing, or even suspecting anything, demonstrates his level of power even thousands of years ago. Hilather, on the other hand, knew there was something 'not quite right' about the Terraseer. All homebrew, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
You got me there, i just automatically consider anything by george, ed, eric, steven, to be canon by default whether published or not.
As do I...
Its just that I had never read that article. I am correcting that accordingly.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 18:14:09
And its probably the nether scrolls themselves that performed the cross over. Containing some sentience of past users or creators and then causing the creation of a secret group of keepers of knowledge whose job it is to maintain and expand the scrolls and the weave |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 16:14:35
I dont think they ever worked together.
The empires of the sarrukh were largely dead by the time of the batrachi and similarly for the aearee (i think).
Each empire found the scrolls and studied them to the point that the scrolls imparted knowledge on how to create a new set (my thoughts, not canon). In creating a new set that race added new rules to the weave.
Thus there are three sets of scrolls and three races that added to them (sarrukh, batrachi, aearee).
There may have been some overlap in the form of the baetith that likely helped steer each race towards using and expanding the scrolls for some unknown purpose. However the baetith might have been just a single lich or artefact stored in a vault that was uncovered by the new race and who did the same as their race died.
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| Wrigley |
Posted - 10 Oct 2016 : 14:16:37
BTW is there any notion about Netheril meeting Imaskari? There was enough time when both empires were standing and either of them should have no problem with distance. Only question is if they knew about each other.
About Nether scrolls - I still believe that they were purely sarrukh creation. There is only info about use of knowledges of other races and no clear indication about their cooperation imho. Why would those most advanced civilisations help each other in arms race because that is what magic stands for in fantasy... Also why it would be named skins of world serpent if aocraa/fey/batrachi had hand in it? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 07:09:56
You got me there, i just automatically consider anything by george, ed, eric, steven, to be canon by default whether published or not. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Oct 2016 : 07:02:08
As a DM, 'psionics as magic' works for me. its just easier.
As a player and fantasy/scify fan, not so much. I prefer them be separate things. However, there should be a 'synergy' between the two, which Ed has alluded to in several works (not to mention Elminster himself).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Phaerimm in imaskar and netheril happens. Nether scrolls in both as well.
Imaskar had Nether scrolls in canon? I don't seem to recall that from anywhere. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For psionics I have a single origin: batrachi. We can see a clear pattern in that - aboleths, mind flyers, dopplegangers and duergars. Jhaamdath was exactly above the same ilithid city that abducted duergars...coincidence?
I've much of the same notion. Perhaps the Batrachi-written portions of the Nether Scrolls pertained to that?
Its funny, I've never been a fan of aberrations in D&D (I prefer 'classical' monsters), and I'm not big on Cthulhu lore either (nor the 'Far Realms'), and yet, I stole the Batrachi (or something very much like them) for my homebrew world, and just about everything important to the setting stems from 'antideluvian horrors'. I just don't know how that even happened, considering its not my taste at all, but it just sort of grew organically from a simple concept I had - Morphic Blood.
I guess if you want an underlying level of 'creepiness' in your setting, you have to blame a lot of stuff on some ancient ebil race that's long forgotten.  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 23:27:52
Ed's psionics were still not magic - and did not tap into the Weave. It was a whole 'nother ball of wax.
I personally think they are too similar to make it worth the effort to put psionics into play.
As for the whole Netheril/Imaskar discussion, I for one think they are undoubtedly linked. However, in my Realms things were reversed. Those arcanists who eventually learned to travel through time made trips to Imaskar - which eventually creates a chicken and the egg sort of feedback loop of who time-traveled to where/when first. Where did the missing Nether Scrolls go? Imaskar of course... And on and on and on - literally any question can then tie the two together in infinite chases.
In the end I tie all the big time mages of all the campaign worlds together into one, who created all the chronomancy artifacts/spells. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 23:16:20
For psionics I have a single origin: batrachi. We can see a clear pattern in that - aboleths, mind flyers, dopplegangers and duergars. Jhaamdath was exactly above the same ilithid city that abducted duergars...coincidence?
BTW phaerim looks like a enlarged leech that swims through air (with one closed eye). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 22:04:59
Well george made all the links i used and i just cant not use them.
As for the rest of canon i never ignore it unless its irredeemable, i tend only to reinterpret it. So the event stays the same but the how and why is open to change.
Phaerimm in imaskar and netheril happens. Nether scrolls in both as well.
On to psionics. I prefer Eds version of psionics where they were just people that could perform magical abilities without training or talent. He called them wild talents. That saying was used later for darksun and i believe the association was made ever since but im not sure Ed ever intended his wild talents to work like that, i think his were more like untrained sorcerers.
So i stick to that. Jhaamdath had a lot of natural taleny casters probably from interbreeding with magic creatures. The mind magic stuff could just be a predilection for telepathy, telekinesis, and other spells that are mind related. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 21:27:37
Thats a good breakdown.
I just feel that the 'further back' one goes (in time), the more interconnected everything becomes. I feel like there was one form of proto-magic (Eldritch?) that splintered-off into all the different schools/disciplines we have today. I was never really a fan of the 'parallel evolution' theories. Thus, a 'tree' might work better than a list.
@Dazzerdal - you say you aren't a fan of the Netherese and Imaskari 'interacting' (which I never say they did - they just interacted with the same things themselves), and then you have a set of Nether Scrolls go down to Imaskar? I MUCH prefer to keep the Imaskar with the Fey (or on their own), and have the Nehtherese owe their rise to the sarrukh (and indirectly, the other two Creatori). I truly like to keep them separate - we already have Imaskar being the ancestor of several other 'magical empires'. I would also like to keep Calimshan as a 3rd, (nearly) completely separate set of 'traditions'. That would give us three branching-off points in Faerūn-proper.
Even though my own Netherese Archmage - Enrev Seluj - was a Calimshan/Netherese mixed blood (his father was a Calishite sorcerer who went to Netehril to study, and became an archmage himself). But thats 100% homebrew (pertaining to some K-T material I worked on, believe it or not).
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I like the idea of getting rid of Phaerim by sending them somewhere else (and it happening multiple times as no better solution was found).
My phaerim are batrachi creation to battle fey originaly (Fae'rim) and later used/waked by sarrukh and again by netheril. I had a problem with imaskari encounter with them but this solution seems fine and even explains the desert in imaskari space...
I prefer the Phaerimm as being an aberration - something from the Far Realms - and more 'naturally' occurring. Basically, the universe's form of 'magical cancer'. Too much magic in a specific area, and the 'cancer' grows. The Sharn, on the other hand, are the universe's 'antibodies'. I didn't really care for Steven Schend's take on them in Blackstaff (otherwise, a great novel).
I do really like that either the Sarrukh, or the fey, 'weaponized' them against the other. That works on a lot of levels. Whereas the other three worked together (at least, for a time), the Fey seem to keep their distance from the others (and nurtured humanity - the last, if not least, of the creatori).
In my homebrew lore, I have it where GOD (Greatest Over-Deity) has a contest to see who can create the 'perfect race' - a group of mortals that will eventually supplant them. The Ordials took up the challenge, and the four main elemental lords each created their own -
Kossuth - Sarrukh (identifying dinos with volcanoes - its stretch, I know)
Istishia - Batrachi (thats an easy one)
Akadi - Aearee (another easy one)
Grumbar - Fey ('of the earth' - more of a 'nature thing')
Unknown (Gaia?) - Humans ('life', or in medieval magical lore, the '5th element', a combination of the other 4.)
Humans - the slowest to grow - eventually 'win' (the contest may be still going on). They are the 'inheritors of the universe', the 'Race of Destiny'.
I spin it that the Fey knew they were 'tied' with the other three, but saw something more in humanity, and helped them, for whatever reason (they ARE mysterious, after all). Thus, the Fey and Mankind are closely linked/bonded. Maybe its like when you play Risk (or similar games) - you know YOU can't win, but you CAN decide who will.
And once again, all purely homebrew - part of my over-reaching, 'Theory of Everything'. Someday I may try to write that all down again.  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 21:11:23
I'd say you have too many divisions - for example, I'd say that both "warlocks" and "Thayan" could easily be lumped into Narfellian.
Also, Psionics are NOT magic, even though they seem a lot like it. Literally every source about them I've ever read emphasized this point. Basically, they do not use the Weave at all.
"Sorcerer" magic is the same as any other magic-user, they just have a different way of learning the spells and casting them. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 19:18:34
The major schools of magic are
Nether Scrolls based
Shadovar Shadow Magic (possibly a Shadowfell influenced branch of the Nether Scrolls school.
Batrachi who are the most likely source for Imaskari magic
Mulan- Mulan Gods, Southern Magic
Calishan- Elementals (especially Genies)
Narfellian- Imaskari and Mulhorand at first, but mostly Infernal/Abyssal by the end
Warlocks- Mostly Planar, but Undying Pacts might have regional variants.
Elves- The LeShay and other Fey.
Divine Magic- They're God, may have other influences, such as Southern Magic
Thayan- Branch of Southern Magic, less Divine compatable.
Jamdathan Psionics: Jamdath
Sorceror: Innate with Regional influences
Bards: varied, with influences from every other school.
Dwarf Magic: Dwarf Gods
Chultan Magic: Chultans
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 13:42:50
Im not yet sure about the stolen artefact. It seems a bit too convenient and not personal enough for the sarrukh.
In my own version all the lesser races are sired by a primordial ancestor of some kind (like how annam did with the giants).
So if it were down to me i would make the artefact a piece of the being that spawned the sarrukh and likely inspired the splitting of the world serpent tale (i dont take those myths literally).
So the sarrukh that would become the phaerimm transformed themselves by carving up their slumbering sire (removing the head or the heart perhaps).
They ran off with this piece and transformed themselves and created their own home.
The sarrukh stole it back but couldnt restore him so with some silent help from a spell weaver empire they transformed it into these golden scales.
The batrachi and aearee might have had to do the same thing to other primordials to create their own contributions to the scrolls (and thereby define their own rules to the weave). That can be the inspiration for the tale of the war between primordials and gods.
Anyway that makes it more personal motivation. Not sure im happy with it yet. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 12:21:38
I like the idea of getting rid of Phaerim by sending them somewhere else (and it happening multiple times as no better solution was found).
My phaerim are batrachi creation to battle fey originaly (Fae'rim) and later used/waked by sarrukh and again by netheril. I had a problem with imaskari encounter with them but this solution seems fine and even explains the desert in imaskari space... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 10:39:47
Well im still more of a fan of keeping imaskar and netheril as separate as possible but thats probably just me.
One thing i have been musing over is why the phaerimm went to istossefifil and imaskar. For me they live outside the prime dimensiom (like the sharn but the phaerimm are less free to travel between and use constructed portals).
George penned the phaerimm as ancient enemies of the sarrukh that are addicted to the magic of the nether scrolls.
Others have penned the phaerimm as an end stage of transformation through magic.
And others have made the phaerimm require magic to survive.
So what if the phaerimm were sarrukh. The precursors and splinter of the baetith that transformed themselves into the first phaerimm.
They make a home for themselves away from other sarrukh (who cannot believe there is a more perfect form than sarrukh). This home is an entirely new plane as big as toril itself, and is powered by an artefact of limitless magic.
The sarrukh steal this artefact and transform it into the nether scrolls.
The phaerimms home begins to shrink. They are forced to steal magic to keep their home alive.
The phaerimm are mad. Cue a war of destruction that nearly annihilates both races. The sarrukh win by submerging the portal the phaerimm used to get to toril and cut them off in a dying plane with dwindling resources.
Jergal takes one lot of nether scrolls to imaskar. The imaskari plumb its secrets, and when they get to learning about portals and extra dimensional spaces they stumble upon the almost vanished home of the pharrimm, even abducting one and bringing him home.
He escapes makes a new portal and cue another war (although this one is more subtle and waged with disease and insurrection from the shadows).
The raurin desert could be caused by a survivor state of imaskar battling a few phaerimm that didnt return homr when the netherese accidentally reopened the portal in anauroch.
Just an idea of course that merges as much of the lore as i can think of.
Ive never read of fey contributing to the nether scrolls. I consider them more to be teachers of ritual magic. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Oct 2016 : 06:25:38
@Dazzerdal - This is what I used to love so much about this place - the synergy, where one idea leads into another.
I had never thought of the 'washed away' aspect of flooding the tunnels, just more of a 'drowning the rats' kind of thing. So here's a thought (you inspired) - what if the solution the Imaskari came up with WAS a gate? Or rather, the Sarrukh's solution?
The Sarrukh can't defeat the Phaerimm (they ARE nigh-unstoppable), so they build a mega-portal that leads to the underdark beneath the old Raurin Basin (future site of Imaskar and later, another desert). They build this portal at one end of all the series of passages that wind through the Anauroch underdark - and then they divert the course of that sea, and literally 'flush' the phaerimm down the drain (out the portal, which they built to be 'one way').
They arrive in the Raurin, and for whatever reason, become trapped there as well (perhaps they were 'magically drained', and had no access to magic, so went into a sort-of hibernation). Then fast forward about 20K years and the Mujhari settled in that region, and discover 'ancient magics', which leads to the rise of the Imaskari. Now, I had always gone with Rip Van Wormer's wonderful theory about the Imaskari and Sigil, and said the proto-Imaskar found an ancient temple to Aoskar in the Raurin. But what if they instead (or also) found the mega-portal the Sarrukh used? Or, at least, some evidence of it (the temple on the surface?) There were Sarrukh in that area as well (around the Lake of Salt), so perhaps those were originally there as 'guardians' for the far side of the gate? 20K years later and those Sarrukh are long gone, and the Imaskar don't trip the alarms, and wind-up accidentally freeing the Phaerimm (which may have happened over time, as they started using powerful magics, re-awakening the sleeping Phaerimm).
Then some interdimensional being(s), like the Fey (or whats left of them in the Taan) show up and warn the Imaskari - maybe thats what they were giving them. Maybe it was instructions on how to deal with the problem. Maybe it involved Pandorym (something perhaps even worse than the Phaerimm) - they may have used that primordial/elder evil to drive the Phaerimm back through the Gate (after fixing it to go the other way), and dumped them all back into the Anauroch region (which was also fertile at that time), right back on top of the sleeping Sarrukh. Then along comes the people of Seventon, and when they start their magical rise to become the Netherese, the Phaerimm are once-again reactivated (maybe that portal is special, like the bloodforges - it somehow drains all the magic of anything that passes through, leaving them weak/in stasis). That all works.
I like the idea of portal that really only works on powerful magic-users, because it needs to drain them in order to power itself for the translocation. It would be a nifty (dirty) trick to pull on someone like Elminster, or a PC.
Or, it could be the Phaerimm are just like pilot fish, drawn to strong magic... which I think was the original premise anyway. But then why didn't they show-up at any of the other highly magical empires, like those of the elves, or Calimshan at its height, or even Narfel & Raumathar... or Thay, for that matter? Why haven't the Phaerimm ever bothered Thay? Or Halruaa? 
This is why I'm leaning toward a 'they were drained' stasis type of explanation. Who knows? Maybe after the Godwar (against Imaskar), there were some Phaerimm in the area, and thats how the Raurin and Quoya deserts came about? Only the Plains of Purple Dust were caused by the Godwar itself.
And if thats the case, maybe there are some Phaerimm under Calimshan as well. Perhaps the Phaerimm were drawn to the power of the Calimemnon(sp?) Crystal? Its the closest thing to one of those 'primal' power sources that became so popular post-3e. They are drawn to power sources of magic, and once there, they begin to suck all the 'life' (mana/magical energy) out of everything around, creating deserts, in mush the same way they had defilers in Dark Sun. Could even be Phaerimm ARE from Athas. Now there a thought - they do fit that places' weirdness (and then there's my theory that Athas is really the southern hemisphere of Abeir... but now I'm reaching again).
EDIT: And now I just thought of something else - this whole 'drawn like moths to a flame' thing really works as well. Maybe THAT is why the Thalud dragged every magic item they could find and put it all into one great big pile under Anauroch? Maybe that was the massive power-source the Phaerimm were drawn to, and didn't want to leave? (Calimemnon Crystal, primordials trapped in stasis, mythals, mythalars, etc - all just giant 'mana engines' {Raw elemental power} for Phaerimm to feed off of.) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 19:33:52
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I was just wondering if the Ee'aar (winged elves of Mystara) and Aearee had some linkage. Seems I wasn't the only one.
Of the winged sharp-eared folk, we have:
"Classic" Avariel: the ones with dual culture thing; use glassteel a lot. Religion: the Winged Mother all the way. Areal: relatively widespread type; present on Faerun mostly in Snow Eagles aerie, possibly migrants on other continents.
Avariel in hiding: lost lots of knowledge and live much like wood elves, retained at least bladesong, but apparently no glassteel. Religion: unknown. Areal: unknown, on Faerun - introduced in The Year of Rogue Dragons.
Al karak elam: (name was used in some Dragon article before Avariel took the later shape, IIRC, then merged back). Live much like wood elves, except they share nest-towns with giant eagles and other raptors, and have traces of dual society (hunters / artisans) - they are fine with this. Religion: Remnis (god of giant eagles), but thanks to planewalking some (on Beastland community) worship Aedrie Faenya now. Areal: the described tribe lives on Beastland, Brux (twilight layer). Possibly more.
Ee'aar: known to be created from the wingless elves, use glassteel, up to making elven chainmail of it. Less reclusive than all of the above. Religion: the local common elven pantheon. Areal: Mystara. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 18:17:11
Oh and i have the phaerimm access toril through a big dimensuonal portal.
The sarrukh magic floods the pprtal and stops it working.
Then foolish ioulaum has his pogrom in the dragon back peaks and the huge amounts of magic unleashed disrupt what the sarrukh did, causing a huge earthquake decades later.
Slowly the water levels drop as the artifical rerouting is disrupted. The phaerimm portal is uncovered and the phaerimm return.
The phaerimm ultimately merge their extra dimensional space with toril, bringing their whole race to toril aroundabout -339 dr. Including a huge spire sticking out of the teeth of tagorlar.
How the sharn deal with the phaerimm in the end is that they partly shift the phaerimm dimension out of phase with toril and bind the phaerimm to it. So the phaerimm could see and interact in anauroch but couldnt leave the confines of their plane (which was roughly as large as anauroch), and they never realised what had happened because everything looked the same they just couldnt move beyond anauroch and they assumed that shimmery effect barring their exit was a wall.
But then i didnt like much of canon so i rewrote it slightly |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 17:15:20
Well its different to mine. My fiends come from one of tyranthraxus' surviving generals.
But when i write stuff up i keep it vague and contradictory with multiple theories and myths for each bit of lore. Just to keep things open.
Never did like the phaerimm in imaskar, but when you consider that the phaerimm live in an extra dimensional space it is not inconceivable to imagine two magically powerful races stumbling across the same thing. Especially when they both learned from the nether scrolls |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 15:54:57
I had tried to weave the Phaerimm into all that, because there is a tenuous racial connection...
The Mujhari were an 'Arabian-like' people who settled the Golden Waters region. Some went further north and became the Imaskari. Now, given their culture and appearance, I assume they came from the south - the Utter East - and were probably another group driven out of Zakhara during the Scattering of Fate.
The Bedine were a much later group of Zakharans that wound-up in Anauroch.
Timeline:
The Phaerimm were a problem for the Sarrukh, who used a fey-like (High Elven ) ritual to cause a dramatic geological change in their lands, flooding the Phaerimm tunnels and driving them out (and I'm not sure why that would even be, given what the Phaerimm are, and how powerful they are, but whatever).
Now, the Mujhari (Zakharans) turned Imaskari had a problem with the Phaerimm, and actually managed to defeat them and drive them out.
A few thousand years later, the Phaerimm are apparently back in the Anauroch region and pestering the Netherese. Now, for all their magical might and hubris, apparently the Netherese were lousy at 'pest control'. What two other magically potent groups seemed to have done with apparent ease, the Netherese could not accomplish, and were destroyed by the Phaerimm. Just to keep things logical, I theorize a lot of that had to do with the direction their magic took - psuedo-magical - which is extremely vulnerable to magic-eating creatures. Karsus probably figured that out, and hence his research into 'Raw' magic. We all know how wonderfully that all turned out.
ANYHOW... We have a (human) Zakharan-descendant group battling the Phaerimm, and later we have a different Zakharan-descendant group in a desert full of Phaerimm. Of course, it could easily just be coincidence; they are drawn to magic. But the appearance of the Bedine is a bit too coincidental (in FR, it appears that all you need do is create a desert using magic, and Zakharans show up... like in Calimshan... except that happened in reverse). Could there be some sort of ancient connection between the peoples of Zakhara and the Phaerimm? An ethnic group known for trafficking with 'interdimensional beings of power'? If the Phaerimm are some sort of cosmic 'magic rat' attracted to the magical scraps of civilizations, could all that genie-magic have brought them into FR in the first place?
But the Bedine came after the Phaerimm became a problem. AFTER they apparently 'won'. Could Fate have intervened there? Is there something to the summoning/elemental magic (sorcery) that is useful against the Phaerimm? And what about the Sarrukh? It seems the one 'Creator Race' they had no truck with were the fey - the (fabled) teachers of the Imaskari. Is there another connection there as well? Were the Phaerimm some sort of biological weapon used by one against the other, that got out of hand?
Just a quasi-theory at this point, mind you. I haven't woven any of that into my 'Theory of everything'. I like to have a good story to go with lore (that, I feel, is what makes it 'good' lore). Lots of little connections, but no really good way to weave it all together. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 07:22:03
Its alluded to in several myths in Anauroch that the Bedine may have rescued the survivors of the survivor states from djinn although given what the netherese were the djinn are more likely fiends.
Im working on an idea where fiends enslave the remnants of the survivor states (after the fall of hlondath). A girl escapes and makes her way through the tunnel in the fallen capital of asram that leads to the other side of the hidden vale.
She encounters the Bedine and they follow her to rescue the Netherese.
On the return journey they are forced to traverse the mountains of the hidden valley where a final confrontation happens and thats where a whole tribe dies fighting off 30 of the monsters and causes the collapse of the mountain pass.
The bedine deity stories of today are an amalgam of events that happened to bedine and netherese in the past. It is a certainty that the bedine are a mix of the two peoples |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 06:57:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I was just wondering if the Ee'aar (winged elves of Mystara) and Aearee had some linkage. Seems I wasn't the only one.
I pasted the two together and use the Raptorans from RotW - there is more there on them in that book than anything on Avarial (Ee'aar) and Aarakocra (Aearee) elsewhere - not counting the Mystara stuff. More of a 'game thing' than an 'FR lore thing'. At least there was mechanics and what-not (and they look like a blend of Elf and 'Birdman').
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Anauroch too (some of the local spells are the same: Sand Jambiya, Wind Compass, Flying Jambiya, Pillar of Sand, Sand Shadow, Find Water, Whispering Sand, Wind Shadow, Conjure Sand Lion, Wind Blade, Death Smoke, Flesh Mirage, Sand Shroud, Sun Stone, Cleanse Water, Sand Worm, Life Water) - but IIRC they're related directly.
The Bedine came from Zakhara, at least in original sources. Later sources say they were decendents of the Netherese. I would say the original Bedine were from Zakhara, but then they allowed many refugees from Netherese survivor-states to join their tribes (as the desert swallowed up their lands).
I had tried to link that translocation to the Scattering of Fate, but that happened too far back in the past (maybe... not sure now... Zakharan lore actually doesn't go all that far back). So I later 'fixed' it (in the Utter East material) by saying the Portals Fate used to 'scoop up' the Old Zakharans and send them elsewhere are still around - some, at least. They move about randomly at this point, in mostly desolate locations, and are only rarely stumbled upon. The Bedine, apparently, had the misfortune of finding one. All home-brew, of course (except for the canon that the Bedine DID come from Zakhara). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Oct 2016 : 01:55:46
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Sarrukh have left those scrolls, but there are reasons to doubt whether scrolls really contain knowledge or extract it. In the latter case, they still presumably make the result compatible with Sarrukh methodology and classify in the pre-arranged way, but that's about it.
Aearee have living descendants - Kenku and Aarakocra, but neither of those are great students of magic. There may be more depending on whether Avariel are their descendants too.
Hmmm, I was just wondering if the Ee'aar (winged elves of Mystara) and Aearee had some linkage. Seems I wasn't the only one. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 21:12:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is also a catastrophic event in the Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material called the 'scattering of Fate', which involved the genies, and human hubris, and how 'Fate' (their over-power) drove all of them from the (once-lush) lands of Zakhara. So my assumption here is that the two events are one and the same, or are at least related
[...]
Thus, Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan/Arabian style magic, involving noble elementals (genies), and 'sorcerer' style mages
And now let's shave this with Occam's Razor:
Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan magic, because we know they had strong common influences - the genies.
Anauroch too (some of the local spells are the same: Sand Jambiya, Wind Compass, Flying Jambiya, Pillar of Sand, Sand Shadow, Find Water, Whispering Sand, Wind Shadow, Conjure Sand Lion, Wind Blade, Death Smoke, Flesh Mirage, Sand Shroud, Sun Stone, Cleanse Water, Sand Worm, Life Water) - but IIRC they're related directly. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 20:55:20
Fey as a Creator Race works for me, only in that they didn't actively create lots of other races (as I think the other, non-human, ones did), but rather, their 'fluid' nature means they were able to become all sorts of creatures themselves - forms most of them are 'locked into' at this point, because they've lost their connection to the Feywild (Faerie). So, NOT like the others, but still can lumped in with them.
As for their location, THAT works perfectly within my own Homebrew/conjecture, because I think the Hanya Maut Wasteland (just east of the Yehimals) is the perfect site for the Black Diamond affair (former location of Ladinion). Fey ARE 'spirits' (in Eastern mythology, including KT), and this is FR canon because in UE: 'Spiritfolk' are Half-Fey. A lot of people don't seem to care for the idea that Fey originated in the east, but in a completely FR (non-Earth) framework, it makes perfect sense. The other Creatori seem to have all come from the area of western Faerūn.
And if you don't lend much credence to the importance of what being a 'Creator Race' means (as I do, but I add-in a LOT of conjecture), then the list itself could be more variable, depending on what culture you ask. For example, I doubt Elves would include humans, but they most certainly would include dragons. The dwarves might count Giants as a 'Creator'. So, it all depends on your perspective (and, of course, how you want to spin things in your own games). |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 17:33:25
I don't like fae as a creator race at all, so I don't blame you. :) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 17:33:05
I remember liking that one, despite my tendency to NOT like the novels that tried to tie a lot of lore together in one place, so I'd say its still worth a read. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 06 Oct 2016 : 14:29:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There isn't much in the Darkvision novel, so don't get your hopes up. Just a single scene where the main character finds an ancient cave complex with some base-reliefs on the walls, and at least one depicted Fey giving something to the Imaskari (The Imaskarkana, perhaps? Or some early version of them?)
There are hints in the Calimshan books that the original wave of genies and their entourage (Djen) came from 'elsewhere' (and even 'elsewhen'). There is also a catastrophic event in the Al-Qadim (Zakhara) material called the 'scattering of Fate', which involved the genies, and human hubris, and how 'Fate' (their over-power) drove all of them from the (once-lush) lands of Zakhara. So my assumption here is that the two events are one and the same, or are at least related (in my homebrew stuff, I actually push it back much further and involve the Rakshasa, but that's beyond conjecture at that point).
Thus, Calishite magic should be at least somewhat related to Zakharan/Arabian style magic, involving noble elementals (genies), and 'sorcerer' style mages (so a lot of summoning/extra-dimensional type magic, plus a lot of illusion - another school the Fey excel at, BTW). So figure more 'trickery' (subtlety) to their magic then their northern neighbors (like the Netherese), and only using extreme force when necessary (so perhaps even more economical in their usage). When you have to depend upon fiends/genies to do a lot of your 'heavy lifting', you don't want to 'owe too many favors', IMO.
And it would also be related to Imaskari magic, but only because both are descended from the same region and peoples (the Mujhari people who first settled the Golden water and Raurin areas came from the south as well). So think of both branches of magic as having a 'common ancestor'.
I do not like the connection of Fey to Imaskari so I am glad that there is no clear information in that book. Some present it as a fact but from your description it seems to me it is a conjecture only.
I have to find a time to look at Al-qadim books as this Fate event seems right into my theory/non-canon change :-) (Mulhorandi/Untheric people were abducted from Zakhara not from different world) |
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