| Author |
 Topic  |
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 22:24:33
|
I understand she kicked out most of her foes within the race, and that drow are stronger then the everyday race, but how does that make her a greater god in comparison of other dietys that get worshiped by more then just one race?
Shouldn't she at most , be a mid-level diety?
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 22:34:38
|
| Because she thought that starting the silence thingy and exposing her followers to great danger in order to simply move from the Abyss to her own domain was a smart idea, acquiring -for some unclear (to me at least) reason- the power of a great deity in the process. Apparently, climbing the ranks of divine hierarchy is much easier than it seems... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
 |
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 22:46:53
|
Although the WotSQ series was pretty good reading and Lisa Smedman's writing afterwards was pretty darn good as well, the whole premise of becoming a greater deity in that way was a poor plot line. The logic doesn't add up IMO. WotC basically wanted a way to change the drow pantheon to fit their new model, no more and no less. Thus, the books were written with that idea in mind.
I could see her making Intermediate deity status at most through her actions (and I feel that is a stretch). I'm not sure that she gained that many followers in the end...and many of them actually died. Soooo, I'm not sure that she even made a net gain (at least I am not sure that one can logically deduce a net gain in followers).
Understand, I don't have a problem with Lolth being a greater deity...just the manner in which she supposedly gained that status. Of course, in may campaign, I keep the number of greater deities limited to 10-12 maximum. Any more than that is too much IMHO. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 22:53:40
|
| Also, didn't Corellon step in and start working to prevent Lolth from claiming the majority of drow? That too would work to her disadvantage through the whole process as well. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 22:59:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Also, didn't Corellon step in and start working to prevent Lolth from claiming the majority of drow? That too would work to her disadvantage through the whole process as well.
Nope, Lolth still gets all the drow. Corellon didn't do anything but tell Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's followers (no longer drow, and max about 20% of the previous total population) ''yo, you can go to Arvandor when you die'', which is ridiculous for many reasons. And he still appears to not be giving a crap about this. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jul 2013 22:59:56 |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 23:08:20
|
It is odd to me that a publisher would go against its own basic lore in promoting her to greater god status. Want to climb the divine ranks? Get a shed load more worshippers, at least that's the way it is supposed to work.
Another shot in their own foot by wotc. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 23:41:48
|
| What was the exact reason for her to go silent again, I don't remember it all. What was she doing while not answering prayers |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 23:45:13
|
| She was moving from the Abyss to her own domain. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:11:50
|
Because Drizzt exists.
If it wasn't for him, she'd still be a "demon queen" and be hanging out with the Elemental Evils. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:22:57
|
quote:
Nope, Lolth still gets all the drow. Corellon didn't do anything but tell Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's followers (no longer drow, and max about 20% of the previous total population) ''yo, you can go to Arvandor when you die'', which is ridiculous for many reasons. And he still appears to not be giving a crap about this.
Hmm, gonna have to go recheck the Lady Penitent series then (the last book anyway). I swear I remember Corellon sitting down to play the game with Lolth and (maybe I assumed) challenging her for the fate of the drow after his daughter died.
Silverwolfer: She went silent while giving birth to tons of little spider babies, who then fought/fed on each other until one became the big cheese and became the new Llolth...and then she subsumed a devout follower to complete the package. The purpose was to (somehow) increase her power. Like I said, the logic fails pretty miserably IMO. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:26:33
|
<-< maybe, I don't remember that bit, do we see anything noticiably different from new and old lloth behaviors?
When Elist cleaned the drow of the evil blood, they became proper dark elves again, no longer being cursed away from Corellon's group, therefore falling under his domain as a racial god . |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:26:42
|
| I agree that the whole idea of abruptly falling silent and letting your worshipers hang seems counter-productive to the idea of becoming more powerful. That element of the story was one of many reasons I did not like the series, which puts me in something of a minority, here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:34:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Nope, Lolth still gets all the drow. Corellon didn't do anything but tell Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's followers (no longer drow, and max about 20% of the previous total population) ''yo, you can go to Arvandor when you die'', which is ridiculous for many reasons. And he still appears to not be giving a crap about this.
Hmm, gonna have to go recheck the Lady Penitent series then (the last book anyway). I swear I remember Corellon sitting down to play the game with Lolth and (maybe I assumed) challenging her for the fate of the drow after his daughter died.
Corellon just allowed the brownies (which are actually a narrow minority of the drow, being only like 20%) to go to Arvandor (which they already could do...), that's what his sitting at the table stands for. In truth he doesn't appear to care, doesn't do anything even remotely close to what Eilistraee or even Vhaeraun do for the drow, and doesn't even try to promote an approach to the matter which isn't mindless ''kill on sight'' among his followers.
If Corellon actually wanted to ''challenge'' Lolth, he would have sided with his children and actually helped them, instead of just watching for some lulz. There are so many things that he -the responsible of the curse- could've done...
Instead, he merely took potential free followers, which no god turns down. Unfortunately, that's how he gets depicted: as the one who had a great influence in starting this whole trouble, but doesn't care to fix it.
IMO, WotC would've been better off saying that the drow change were due to the Spellplague (well, they would've been better off scrapping them, actually), instead of bringing this nonsense into the setting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 00:42:25 |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:44:30
|
I thought the concept was interesting it's just the idea of her somehow becoming stronger in the end made little/no sense.
1. Tons of her followers died and/or lost faith in her completely. Strike #1 for gaining more power.
2. (Just keeping the numbers easy here): Let's say she gave birth to 100 spider babies (it was actually MUCH more) and that each one represents 1% of divine power. In the novels it states that some of them weren't subsumed into the greater whole (something was said about a deal would be struck with them later...I assume they would be required to serve in some capacity). Anyway, if 90 out of 100 are subsumed, that's a 10% loss in overall divine power. Stike #2.
3. Later, Lloth subsumes Selvatarm and MAYBE gains some of Kiriansalee's power when she is erased. Thing is, I don't see that giving her enough of a boost to regain what was lost and even if it did...how does it add up to enough power to become a GREATER DEITY? Strike #3 IMHO.
4. Also, IF I am correct that Corellon challenged her for the fate of the drow then she loses (or at least does not gain much) power. Strike #4. This assumes that I am correct though. If Irennen is correct then disregard this point.
5. Even if point 4 is incorrect, the drow have lost the taint...and that should put Lolth on unsure footing as well. Strike #5 (or 4).
The point is, it's a poorly thought out concept that just doesn't add up in the end.
@Silver: I'm afraid answering your question is a bit difficult as there just isn't a sensible answer to be given.
|
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:53:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
5. Even if point 4 is incorrect, the drow have lost the taint...and that should put Lolth on unsure footing as well. Strike #5 (or 4).
Only about 20% of them (Eilistraee's followers + pure blooded. The percentage was given by Ed) lost the taunt, and they were already out of Lolth's control. The others, according to LP books were ''unwilling and cast down''. What they wanted to say with this is that the remaining drow are basically 100% innately evil (which makes no sense to me, but hey...) and indoctrinated by Lolth, completely under her control.
Complete lack of Corellon actions in this regard after the events shows his lack of interest.
Anyway, you have a point in saying that there's no logical answer to this, it was merely a design choice. As I said, they would've been better off saying ''the Spellplague did it'' IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:53:16
|
Irennen: I agree completely. For a 'good' deity of such power he is depicted as handling the drow very poorly. I've always liked the drow as a race and I liked Auraushnee/Lolth being his wife in ages past. But there are several ideas within the overall concept of the 'fall' of the drow that seemed rediculous (green elves becoming drow for instance). I assume that what we get in the novels isn't 100% truth, but there are still too many things that make little sense to me.
Now Im going to have to go work on a new mythology regarding the fall of the drow. Sorry for derailing the topic. Let us return to the matter at hand. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 00:57:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree that the whole idea of abruptly falling silent and letting your worshipers hang seems counter-productive to the idea of becoming more powerful. That element of the story was one of many reasons I did not like the series, which puts me in something of a minority, here.
Not really.
I found it a convoluted mess.
I guess I enjoyed them individually, but as a series it just fell apart for me. The main characters acted completely different from book to book - it was very jarring. I really hope they never go that route for a series again (different authors for a series is fine, so long as each is telling a different story). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:18:53
|
| They do that to make the books fit within a time line I think, and to introduce new authors and try to gain more readerships outside the main pillars of RAS , Troy, and Greenwood |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:22:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree that the whole idea of abruptly falling silent and letting your worshipers hang seems counter-productive to the idea of becoming more powerful. That element of the story was one of many reasons I did not like the series, which puts me in something of a minority, here.
Not really.
I found it a convoluted mess.
I guess I enjoyed them individually, but as a series it just fell apart for me. The main characters acted completely different from book to book - it was very jarring. I really hope they never go that route for a series again (different authors for a series is fine, so long as each is telling a different story).
Well, from what I've seen here, the WotSQ series is very popular with the majority of our scribes. At least that's been my perception. So from what I've seen, my opinions on that series put me into the minority. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:29:55
|
A. Very popular as well written on the small as things happen scale
B: Not very popular on how it explains things once you have time to think on it. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:31:56
|
quote:
A. Very popular as well written on the small as things happen scale
B: Not very popular on how it explains things once you have time to think on it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:54:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
A. Very popular as well written on the small as things happen scale
B: Not very popular on how it explains things once you have time to think on it.
Fair enough. 
But for me, I didn't care for the individual books, the events, or most of the characters. The fact that it doesn't explain how Lolth became more powerful actually isn't one of my primary reasons for disliking the series, though it is a factor. I thought the whole series was pointless, the characters unlikable and subject to jarring personality shifts (because of different authors), and that the individual books weren't all that great.
I like Pharaun and Aliisza, and that's about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 02:11:45
|
| ^Same happened to me. The books got me interested at the beginning because they were the first drow-related titles I picked up after Starlight and Shadows, but -TBH- I could not even be bothered to read the whole series (read up to book 4) because my interest in the events quickly vanished. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 02:13:00 |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 04:02:31
|
I assume the number of worships creating divine rank is not being followed as much. Why are Asmodeus or Ghaunadaur greater deities, either? Presumably the formula, if one exists, is more complicated than number of worshipers (fervency, fear, etc. Who really "worships" Urdln?) Lolth's silence impacted many lives and that may count as indirect worship. I assumed through her transformation she shed negative things to take on new qualities (like a mortal going on a trip then being more vital when they return?)
Her metamorphosis was also supposed to be interplanar not just Toril. A chwracter wonders at one point how many worlds all the souls are from as they approach the demon web.
Also realistically most consumers don't k now or care about the canon. I know people who read forgotten realms books who know nothing about the game Dungeons and Dragons!
|
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 04:03:00
|
I assume the number of worships creating divine rank is not being followed as much. Why are Asmodeus or Ghaunadaur greater deities, either? Presumably the formula, if one exists, is more complicated than number of worshipers (fervency, fear, etc. Who really "worships" Urdln?) Lolth's silence impacted many lives and that may count as indirect worship. I assumed through her transformation she shed negative things to take on new qualities (like a mortal going on a trip then being more vital when they return?) Fear is big..slaves, surfacers, and other underdark residents could think about Lolth a lot without being a drow. Liriel Baenre wasn't even aware of Eilistraee whereas the existence of Lolth is a driving force in the mentality of drow who don't actively worship her. Hating Lolth could be indirect worship that empowers her as normal worship. (Think of Talos or Beshabas divine ranks compared to number of priests and temples)
Her metamorphosis was also supposed to be interplanar not just Toril. A chwracter wonders at one point how many worlds all the souls are from as they approach the demon web.
Also realistically most consumers don't k now or care about the canon. I know people who read forgotten realms books who know nothing about the game Dungeons and Dragons!
|
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 30 Jul 2013 04:07:22 |
|
|
|
Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 06:06:49
|
That was the big issue with the WOTSQ and Lady Penitent books. They devoted 9 novels to explaining how Lolth became a greater goddess and eliminated the rest of the drow pantheon. That's enough space to cover such drastic changes, but they misused the space.
Spending 6 books on Lolth's transformation was poorly thought out, because it left only 3 books to kill off the whole drow pantheon. Worst of all, WOTSQ put no little effort into explaining what exactly happened with Lolth. It would make more sense to have had WOTSQ be 3 books, because less actually happened there. Then with 6 books to kill off the drow pantheon, it could have been done more artfully.
As per the OP, I can only attempt to explain her Greater God status as due to the fervency of her worshippers. Drow are unique in that they don't utter a word of prayer to Tymora for good luck, Umberlee for safe passage, etc. It's only Lolth. The drow are numerous race, and having them completely under her thumb should merit Greater God status. However, she only gained complete control of the drow after becoming a Greater God, so I guess that doesn't work either.
Thinking about it, Bane should be the most powerful god. He has tons of human followers, plus controls goblins and evil dragons due to his domination of their gods. And he has Loviatar's worshippers. He's a very demanding god, so I doubt his worshippers are any less devoted than Lolth's. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 08:07:11
|
They did not badly explain it....they did it in ..
*drum roll please*
Unreliable narrator
ooo...that felt good typing |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 10:31:58
|
There were way too many details to pull off the unreliable narrator excuse. It's just that the details didn't explain anything.
About the fervor thing: well, why then all of sudden Lolth became a greater deity. I mean, the only thing the Silence caused was a giant mess that -if anything- led some drow to look for a deity in Eilistraee/Vhaeraun/Kiaransalee. There was no plan, artifice or anything but Lolth moving away from the Abyss, and I don't see why this should empower her.
Also when Lolth supposedly became a greater goddess, the drow were kinda split, as in about 20% of them followed Eilistraee and I assume that Vhaeraun also had a good amount of followers, considering that the siblings' ideas were starting to spread quite widely and quickly.
IMO that RSE should've been about this concept, instead of ''lulz the drow gods kill themselves in an attempt to kill Lolth, while she watches doing basically nothing''. It's really baffling how they bothered to write nine effin' novels just to strip this race of any FR personality it had... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 10:54:12 |
|
|
|
Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 19:08:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
There were way too many details to pull off the unreliable narrator excuse. It's just that the details didn't explain anything.
About the fervor thing: well, why then all of sudden Lolth became a greater deity. I mean, the only thing the Silence caused was a giant mess that -if anything- led some drow to look for a deity in Eilistraee/Vhaeraun/Kiaransalee. There was no plan, artifice or anything but Lolth moving away from the Abyss, and I don't see why this should empower her.
Also when Lolth supposedly became a greater goddess, the drow were kinda split, as in about 20% of them followed Eilistraee and I assume that Vhaeraun also had a good amount of followers, considering that the siblings' ideas were starting to spread quite widely and quickly.
IMO that RSE should've been about this concept, instead of ''lulz the drow gods kill themselves in an attempt to kill Lolth, while she watches doing basically nothing''. It's really baffling how they bothered to write nine effin' novels just to strip this race of any FR personality it had...
I must agree that Lolth was completely useless in that series. It would have been cool if she killed the other drow gods through cleverness, but she didn't.
1) Kiransalee - killed by high magic (by mages who didn't follow Lolth) erasing her name from everyone's memory
2) Ghaunadaur - tricked into a maze by Eilistraee's followers; somehow became a Greater God in 4e
3) Vhaeraun - killed (we think) by Eilistraee after his followers used high magic to open a portal to her realm so Vhaeraun could assassinate her
4) Eilistraee - presumably killed by Lolth's trickery, but we find out that she sacrificed herself to redeem 20% of the drow race (though how her death redeemed them, I'm not sure).
5) Selvetarm - was killed by Cavatina (one of Eilistraee's followers) with the Crescent Blade
So you're absolutely right. Lolth was silent for the entire WOTSQ series, and did very little in the Lady Penitent trilogy. If becoming a Greater God and wiping out a whole pantheon is that easy, I'm surprised that Lolth didn't do it centuries ago.
Still, what annoyed me most was the high magic. We have a group of drow mages (none of whom are epic level) randomly discover some ancient scrolls, and all of a sudden we're wiping out gods with high magic?
Plus, the inconsistency of fiends has always been a problem. Based on what I've read in other FR novels, Qilue shouldn't have had that much trouble with a balor. But maybe Wendonai was particularly powerful for his kind. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 20:11:13
|
I personally don't think High Magic should be available to drow, and I think that destroying a god shouldn't be that easy... Particularly, just by erasing the name from mortal memory.
If I have food in front of me, and someone takes it away, I don't keel over dead on the spot -- it'll be days before I die from starvation. I don't see why it should be different with gods.
Even given erasure of her name from all minds in the Realms, she should still exist and have a chance to re-establish herself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 20:20:21
|
Agreed about the High Magic thing, it baffled me as well. However the god's behaviour was inconsistent or -to be blunt- stupid at times as well.
Vhaeraun's ''assassination'' was too reckless and foolish to be his actual plan, and Eilistraee didn't really sacrifice IMO. It is completely out of her character for a couple reasons:
1)Why had the drow to become wood elves again? What did they gain? Drow are proud people, I'm sure there are many Liriel-like dark elves among the eilistraeens (and last time I checked the other ones were fine with being drow) and they would never want this, nor Eilistraee would force it down their throats (which basically is what happened: no choice on mortal side).
I've already said it, but the Dark Maiden and her followers mean ''redemption'' as in taking a stand and forging one's own future instead of being brainwashed by Lolth, not as in being turned into a wood elf or being ''purified'' for being born a drow. This is the opposite of what she stands for.
2)Eilistraee would never turn her back to the vast majority of the drow, especially not just to give 20% of them something that they don't want/need. It really makes little sense. Also she put so much effort in this quest, I'd find it hard to believe that she just wanted to leave it to Corellon (and even if she wanted his help, why not just take it instead of this?).
Besides, Corellon allowed it like np. As badly as he's portrayed in the FR, I don't think he'd behave that way...
As I see it, either Eilistraee was simply taken off by Halisstra's stupidity (and even here, you're right: how the hell did Qilue combined with her goddess lose to that?), or she actually planned something else. That's why I like the archfey solution to this problem. Unfortunately they threw it away.
EDIT: There's also what Wooly said about Kiaransalee...
IMO these loopholes were left on purpose by the author so that all of this could be fixed if the opportunity arised. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 20:25:28 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Why is lloth a greater god?
