| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 20:23:13
|
I agree with pretty much everything everyone has posted.
I feel like the entire series was pretty much a waste, and I would have preferred a completely different outcome.
It didn't bother me that Lolth became a Greater Deity, and in fact I would argue that she should have been a Greater Deity long before 3E. The drow are numerous enough for such a thing to take place, and the bulk of them have always worshiped her. She certainly has enough followers to put her on par with a Shar or Bane.
What I dislike the most was how the books inevitably "dumbed down" the Drow, basically cutting away all their complexity, to paint them as 100% innately evil through and through. The funny thing about the whole series is that Drizzt wasn't "redeemed" - he's still a Drow. What are the implications of that?
It didn't bother me that some of the Drow had their curse effectively lifted. In fact, it's writing a wrong that occurred long ago because many who were innocent were transformed into Drow and cast down as well. We discussed in another thread about Shevarash how he and his faithful would likely react to "redeemed drow" being welcomed into the fold by Corellon, and some of the interesting conflicts that could potentially cause among the surface Elves. There was some great plot opportunities there.
I disliked the complete gutting of the Drow Pantheon, and essentially making Lolth the only game in town. I'm not opposed to major reform to their pantheon and the deities in it, but it irked me a great deal to see things so grossly simplified.
What I would have liked to see would have been a merger between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun - effectively keeping the Masked Lady around as the counter balance to Lolth. I would have liked to see Eilistraee slowly start to walk toward the dark side after absorbing Vhaeraun.
It would have been great to have a dynamic setup between Lolth and Eilistraee that reflected the stereotypical drow noble house - the battle between a matron mother and her scheming daughter who seeks to overthrow her. Keep Lolth the same as she has always been, but give Eilistraee an alternative vision for the Drow that's no longer about redeeming them, but rather lifting them up to the surface world to take their rightful place.
I would have kept Selvatarm more-or-less as he was in service to Lolth. I would have axed Kiaransalee through some other means that didn't involve the lame use of High Magic.
I would have left Ghaunadaur as a third option for drow outside of Lolth / Selvatarm and Eilistraee. Then I would have introduced Shar under an alias, which makes sense due to her taking the Underdark Portfolio from Ibrandul and her clear desire to expand her worship among the Drow.
That would have made their pantheon look like:
Lolth / Selvatarm
Eilistraee
Ghaunadaur
Shar (under an alias)
With the vast majority of Drow worshiping either Lolth / Selvatarm and Eilistraee. By having Eilistraee slip toward the dark side to fight her mother for control over the Drow, and having some of the drow have the curse lifted - the same basic outcome would have been achieved, but without the one dimensional feel of it.
In fact, it would be even better if post "drow redemption" and post Eilistraee's fall into darkness that she started to reach out to some members of the Eldreth Veluuthra, since they've lacked Corellon's support for clerics. Basically, a handful of them might start taking an alternative position: ALL Elves are superior to non-Elves, particularly humans, and that it's in the best interest of the surface Elves to make peace with the Drow and begin working toward unifying their race against human encroachment.
This would create a major rift within the Eldreth Veluuthra. That's when Shevarash can show up - determined that a drow deity isn't going to make any headway among the surface Elves, and he could also reach out to the Eldreth Veluuthra. At that point he could expand his "crusade" not just to drow, but to ALL enemies of the Elves - such as humans, orcs, goblins, etc. This would expand his focus, and he would fight to bring the Eldreth Veluuthra under his sway.
Shevarash would also be brought into conflict with Corellon who is trying to get everyone to embrace the "redeemed" drow and welcome them back into the fold. Basically his position would be: "Once a drow, always a drow." Have a split take place within Corellon's cult among the elves who want to embrace the redeemed drow and those who don't, etc.
There are so many interesting opportunities that could have been used here, and it's sad to see most of them lost. |
 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 20:39:31
|
I'm only posting this as a devil's advocate idea. I felt the ending of WotSQ was odd and they didn't finish it, BUT how can you take a bad ending and improve upon it.
On moving her domain from the Abyss to its own domain tied to Toril - no one knows exactly how many layers there are in the abyss. They like to say they do and that its 666 layers, but in truth, no one's ever truly mapped it. So, it just might be that the layers of the Abyss that are "adjacent" to Toril move, and it might be that her layer was about to rotate away and she didn't want to lose contact with her followers. Also, perhaps the "rate of return" for the drow souls going to the abyss was less than what she wanted (i.e. what if the abyss itself absorbs half of a soul to empower demon creation for demons that wouldn't fall under Lolth's power), and by "investing" in her own domain for souls to go through she could recoup her losses after some time. Perhaps her "going silent" was a means to "queue" up souls to help "pay" the initial investment needed to create this domain.
On splitting herself into multiple "avatars" - perhaps she intended to basically re-create herself as a being as powerful as Angharradh and that first involved tearing herself down into aspects for her drow to worship. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 21:00:28
|
| The ascent of lolth's divine rank makes perfect sense if looked at in the right context. She has been an intermediate deity for most of her forgotten realms life.and Toril is just ONE world she is active on. Her realm is made from WORLDS she dragged into the abyss,something she was never powerful enough to do while she was in the seldarine.one of the special loopholes in godhood is LIVING OR DIEING by their credos.Lolth's pantheon died by her subtile manipulations.remember the only reason SHE never killed vhearaun herself is because HE was doing things that where in line with what she stood for( the dog eat dog existence that she had the drow living by.)vhearaun served her will even in rebellion.he attempted to ASSASSINATE his sister...and failed.(LOLTH is goddess of assassins.) elistraee's followers were thrown into chaos by her subsuming his divine essense.(LOLTH is goddess of chaos).kiaransalee was assassinated by drow highmages. My point is that a lot has happened since the crownwars. Keep in mind her rise was in the making for thousands of years..it just culminated in the wotsq series.look at what the drow discovered when they went to the abyss. The 66 layer was in decay... millennia years worth of decay. Remember liriel's quest brought lolth's power to the surface world,she already had zinzerina's followers,she was in the process of stealing moader's followers,she took selvertarm's as well(ASSASSINATION).that's three Demi-gods...enough for a level jump in divine rank. And LOLTH has enough followers to maintain it. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 21:05:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
and I think that destroying a god shouldn't be that easy... Particularly, just by erasing the name from mortal memory.
If I have food in front of me, and someone takes it away, I don't keel over dead on the spot -- it'll be days before I die from starvation. I don't see why it should be different with gods.
Even given erasure of her name from all minds in the Realms, she should still exist and have a chance to re-establish herself.
Didn't Ed himself once said that "divine starvation" takes centuries if not longer?
Anyway, the events in the novels can be easily explained:
Not the mortals killed the deities, the divine sava game to which they agreed to bind their essences killed the deities. The mortals were simply reenacting what was already deceided by the board.
Selvetarm was even standing with Lolth and Elli after behing supposedly killed and only vanished when his piece was taken from the board |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 21:17:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
The ascent of lolth's divine rank makes perfect sense if looked at in the right context. She has been an intermediate deity for most of her forgotten realms life.and Toril is just ONE world she is active on. Her realm is made from WORLDS she dragged into the abyss,something she was never powerful enough to do while she was in the seldarine.one of the special loopholes in godhood is LIVING OR DIEING by their credos.Lolth's pantheon died by her subtile manipulations.remember the only reason SHE never killed vhearaun herself is because HE was doing things that where in line with what she stood for( the dog eat dog existence that she had the drow living by.)vhearaun served her will even in rebellion.he attempted to ASSASSINATE his sister...and failed.(LOLTH is goddess of assassins.) elistraee's followers were thrown into chaos by her subsuming his divine essense.(LOLTH is goddess of chaos).kiaransalee was assassinated by drow highmages. My point is that a lot has happened since the crownwars. Keep in mind her rise was in the making for thousands of years..it just culminated in the wotsq series.look at what the drow discovered when they went to the abyss. The 66 layer was in decay... millennia years worth of decay. Remember liriel's quest brought lolth's power to the surface world,she already had zinzerina's followers,she was in the process of stealing moader's followers,she took selvertarm's as well(ASSASSINATION).that's three Demi-gods...enough for a level jump in divine rank. And LOLTH has enough followers to maintain it.
Lolth did nothing concrete during the whole series but going in silece. She didn't manipulate anything: it was all the other deities who acted like idiots and defeated themselves. If loaded dies was the best of her weaving, it'd be laughable.
Also what you describe about Moander and Zinzerena happened before the silence afaik, so there's still no explanation why all of sudden she became a greater deity.
At the end of the day WotC just wanted to chnage the drow pantheon and decided to do it w/o thought on the events themselves.
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 21:21:07 |
|
|
|
jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 21:18:40
|
| Selvetarm's severed head was there. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 21:33:55
|
If mortals only action is decided by some sava game by the gods, then where does things like free choice, and my ability to not belive in a god and be put on the wall of the faithless come into play?
Remember, The slime god was random to the point that even Lloth was shocked when he took his toys and went to a new home , tired of lloth b/s and abuse. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 21:40:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
If mortals only action is decided by some sava game by the gods, then where does things like free choice, and my ability to not belive in a god and be put on the wall of the faithless come into play?
I think that the game was just a symbol -a bad one IMO, cause it implies that people are pawns of the gods- but just that. Mortals' action would be represented by moves on the board.
If it was concrete it'd make no sense IMO, as I could figure Lolth treating her followers as pawns (she does everything in her power so that their lives are decided by her) but Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, who encourage rebellion and freedom, would never do so. Also, the concept behind it would completely suck IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 22:10:31
|
I've also had an issue with the game of sava -- not in the LP trilogy, which I've not read, but in the stated rules the drow play by.
To me, taking a chance once per game, with a 1 in 36 chance of it working out for you, is not really adding chaos to it -- with the low chance of success and the fact that you sacrifice a turn to do it, I don't see any reason to use it other than to stave off otherwise certain defeat.
I think it'd be far more chaotic if you could do it multiple times per game, and with a greater chance of success. Three chances, with success being rolling a six or less (for example) would add a far greater element of chaos to the game. And/or add a special piece that had moves (and maybe even capabilities) determined every turn by a throw of the dice -- that'd really mix it up! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Jul 2013 22:12:30 |
|
|
|
jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 22:22:43
|
| Irenan, I repeat...lolth's ascent was millennia in the making. It only culminated in the wotsq series. Even at the end of the series it was admitted that lady penitent was beings manipulated from the start AND so was selvetarm'(he had never truly been lolth's champion from the time of HIS apotheosis.)remember vhearaun acted out of character when he went after elistraee. Meaning he was either desperate or forced to attack her,like lolth made house hunette attack house do'urden.lolth has always been known to work THROUGH other deities from before her FALL. Remember gruumsh,malar,even selvetarm' s seizing of zanasu's spider essense.for that matter the entire seldarine war was her manipulation. The only time Lolth acts in an overt manner is when ALL ELSE fails. She has a history of working this way and teaching the drow to work this way. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 22:41:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Irenan, I repeat...lolth's ascent was millennia in the making. It only culminated in the wotsq series. Even at the end of the series it was admitted that lady penitent was beings manipulated from the start AND so was selvetarm'(he had never truly been lolth's champion from the time of HIS apotheosis.)remember vhearaun acted out of character when he went after elistraee. Meaning he was either desperate or forced to attack her,like lolth made house hunette attack house do'urden.lolth has always been known to work THROUGH other deities from before her FALL. Remember gruumsh,malar,even selvetarm' s seizing of zanasu's spider essense.for that matter the entire seldarine war was her manipulation. The only time Lolth acts in an overt manner is when ALL ELSE fails. She has a history of working this way and teaching the drow to work this way.
Nothing from the books implies that Lolth manipulated anything. I get that it is her beahviour, but in practice she wasn't portrayed that way.
Again, she simpy watched the other deities defeat themselves while doing nothing, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee acted out of character not because of desperation (if anything, their ideas were starting to spread out and Lolth's silence only improved their situation as long as followers go) -as there is nothing that hints an incoming defeat for them- but simply because wizards wanted to take them out of the Realms. Lolth didn't lead Vhaeraun to basically commit suicide, wasn't responisble of the ritual that removed Kiaransalee and surely wasn't the cause of Eilistraee's fall: an act of immense recklessness and foolishness that not even a 5 years old child would've done was. Lolth just has a lot of plot armor.
Saying at the end of the book that ''lulz, Lolth has manipulated everything'' isn't enough to actually make it true (heck, not even Halisstra was actually manipulated, she was just idiotic in choosing Lolth and the pain that waited for her at the end of wotsq. Her lack of a strong personality made her a easy -but not subtle at all- pawn ). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 22:54:35 |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 23:01:04
|
| Maybe it was lloth not being around that made everyone suddenly stir crazy. Without the big moma hen to watch over everything, everyone suddenly became foxes and while folks gobbled each other up, the hen came back towards the end to settle matters, then again, how long did that sava game last? Was no one playing sava when she was silent? |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 23:17:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
If mortals only action is decided by some sava game by the gods, then where does things like free choice, and my ability to not belive in a god and be put on the wall of the faithless come into play?
Not mortals only action, these specific events. Selvetarm died because he willingly bound his divine essences to this boardgame and his pawn was captured. Not because some puny mortal waved a silly sword around.
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolferRemember, The slime god was random to the point that even Lloth was shocked when he took his toys and went to a new home , tired of lloth b/s and abuse.
The slimelords pawn was never captures and I don't think he ever agreed to bind his essence to the board like the others |
Edited by - Mirtek on 30 Jul 2013 23:20:39 |
|
|
|
jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 23:33:32
|
| True lolth wasn't really responsible for kiaransalee's death,but she still benefitted the most from it(lost an annoying servant.) but HER highmage followers DID create the scroll that the vhearaunites used to force open eilistraee's realm for the masked lord.(lolth had no intention of launching another attack on the seldarine.that's just what her followers were led to believe. Who is to say she didn't have it made for exactly the purpose it was used. When it's all said and done..HER rebellion WAS successful.just not in the way the seldarine figured. She is now officially corellons equal now. Her webs encompass ALL and the world is her PREY!!! She was a goddess of fate in the beginning and she obviously foresaw her ascension |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 23:49:41
|
What did Lolth force, exactly?. I don't know how Vhaeraun opened that portal (I haven't read the books, only gathered info), but even assuming that it happened through an artifact crafted by Lolthite mages, it was him who chose to do that, and attacking a goddes of equal power in her own domain (especially considering that said domain is in Arvandor, which is full of Vhaeraun's enemies) was something that none with a brain -let alone Vhaeraun- would have done. Again, he basically committed sucide here, while Lolth didn't do anything.
Also she was a greater goddess before the event of LP, right after the silence. So her ascension is still random (or better, a game desing decison) even if she -obviously- benefited from the defeat of her foes. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2013 23:51:15 |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 23:54:53
|
| Just wait for 5e, when tiamat goes silent, and bahamut and Io kill each other for no good reason. |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 00:52:29
|
| The implication I saw was that Vhaeraun chose to be defeated by Eilistraee for one reason or another. Perhaps they merged but the text says directly that he died it isn't vague or leave room for interpretation. I like the idea of them merging to stand strong against their mother...that is what I use in my own realms :s. (Also Mask's worship going to Eilistraee-Vhaeraun when he dies...I havent read the books in which those events are detailed) |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 00:56:18
|
| Yeah, I like that idea too, even tho I prefer them as separated entities coming to a compromise, mitigating their ''rough edges'' and working together from there. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 03:03:57
|
CAn you back up your statement Mr Head, on dealing with mask worship going to the Elist-Vhaer combo? As far as am aware, Mask dies almost in 1374, while Elist "dies" in 1379. That is a really short time for worship to change hands between gods, of drastically different pantheons that have nothing to do with each other, except maybe a few overlaying strands or sects of worshipers.
IF what you hold to say is true, then Vhaer would have been changed very harshly from a drow focused diety, to one that had more concerns then just Lloth, and could see as becoming a new sort of Mask, and focusing his conserns more towards the overworld and not just his native pantehon, much like you see with sharess. |
Edited by - silverwolfer on 31 Jul 2013 03:06:10 |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 03:55:32
|
Methinks 5e will fix all of this (too many people have a problem with the events as described).
I agree with many of the sentiments expressed although I want Elis back (the drow need a good deity to worship IMO). I do like the Masked Lady though provided that good drow can worship her and she does NOT fall into evil (sorry Aldrick, I just have a diff opinion here).
I dont like drow becoming green elves again (of course, Im dont like the idea of green elves becoming drow to begin with). IMO, the magic used only affected the initial group of green elves, so altering their descendants makes no sense to me. I admit I'm thinking in terms of genetics (science rather than magic/fantasy) here. To me, their descendants would be 'true' drow and unaffected by lifting/dispelling the initial magic. Example: Wizard permanently changes another wizard into a goat (mentally and physically). Goat-mage impregnates other goat. Transmutation is dispelled...does this make baby goat a human? If two mages are turned into goats and have babies and are changed back...do the babies then become human? I think not. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 05:22:40
|
Drow are not Drow due to them being...drow *uhg I hate using this to explain.
If you were going to have your followers become back under the point that corllean would accept * or be forced to accept* You can't have then wandering about as just drow, but you change them back to the original state with MAGIC! An because they were here followers * meaning hers to do with as she pleases(I think) , she polymorphed them into what use to fall under the chief elf dudes domains. |
|
|
|
ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 06:06:05
|
I don't really have a problem with Lloth being a Greater Deity, but in my campaign her domain is still in the Abyss. Though I'd have to agree that the story of her ascendance was far to convoluted and incredulous.
The Masked Lady concept I liked, but it didn't last long enough to be flushed out or for anyone to get an idea of how it would have actually played out. Personally, I disliked the losing both El and Vhaerun as their roles within the Drow pantheon always made sense to me. While Sel and Ki always seemed like they were simply thrown into the mix in order to meet some minimum quota. That being said, I disagree with the way they treated and then removed. Needless to say, I'm curious as to how this will all be sorted out in 5e.
|
|
|
|
jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 09:09:59
|
| I like the masked lady too! I always felt eilistraee had to much of her mothers feministic traits and really left males as much stuck out as lolth did. Only through merging with het brother was she really able to get pass that weakness.had she lived I would have enjoyed bringing her worship to the forefront of my realms campaign. With her and vhearaun merged,it would have made a intermediate deity equal to the old lolth in power.by the way why did both thief gods have to die? Is there a conspiracy? |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 09:48:34
|
quote:
I like the masked lady too! I always felt eilistraee had to much of her mothers feministic traits and really left males as much stuck out as lolth did. Only through merging with het brother was she really able to get pass that weakness.had she lived I would have enjoyed bringing her worship to the forefront of my realms campaign. With her and vhearaun merged,it would have made a intermediate deity equal to the old lolth in power.by the way why did both thief gods have to die? Is there a conspiracy?
Eilistraee was depicted as ''sexist'' in those novels for a reason I really don't understand. Her being sexist is contradictory to what she stands for.
Even if her clergy is described as women only (which I consider extremely stupid tbh, but I guess it was done to keep the flavor of a nurturing ''mother-ish'' goddess), men can expect equal treatment by her followers (there was an online supplement to the FR CS -or Player Guide, don't recall- by SKR about drow and it specifically said that. Also nothing in her lore let understand that males are treated as second class persons, quite the contrary...).
Also, you don't need to mash people together in order to have them change their mind...
Btw, seeing that you like the Masked Lady, you can totally bring her in your campaing if you wish. Just because canon removed her doesn't mean that you can't include her in your setting,
@Silverwolfer. I'll quote myself:
quote:
Eilistraee didn't really sacrifice IMO. It is completely out of her character for a couple reasons:
1)Why had the drow to become wood elves again? What did they gain? Drow are proud people, I'm sure there are many Liriel-like dark elves among the eilistraeens (and last time I checked the other ones were fine with being drow) and they would never want this, nor Eilistraee would force it down their throats (which basically is what happened: no choice on mortal side).
I've already said it, but the Dark Maiden and her followers mean ''redemption'' as in taking a stand and forging one's own future instead of being brainwashed by Lolth, not as in being turned into a wood elf or being ''purified'' for being born a drow. This is the opposite of what she stands for.
2)Eilistraee would never turn her back to the vast majority of the drow, especially not just to give 20% of them something that they don't want/need. It really makes little sense. Also she put so much effort in this quest, I'd find it hard to believe that she just wanted to leave it to Corellon (and even if she wanted his help, why not just take it instead of this?).
She really isn't the kind of deity that forces things down the throats of her followers and surely doesn't consider them to be ''hers'' (on the contrary she encourages their freedom of expression and of choosing their own lives).
This aspect of LP is one of things that pisses me off the most. She promotes acceptance: scrapping a big part of her followers' identity only to have them included in the ''VIP'' part of Arvandor (they could already go to her domain, which is in it) does't sound like her, at all.
Also all of this doesn't make sense, since Corellon knows that drow are merely elves, considering that it was him who just painted them black.
I believe WotC merely wished to get rid of good drow and did this thing so that they are now elves. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 Jul 2013 10:13:18 |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 10:26:40
|
I have a theory I would like to propose for 5e.
Although we did not get much out of it, it is still cannon that Lloth tried to control the weave and failed. Do you think once mystra gets restored ((she has a rather large revenge list between lloth , cyric, and nearly every other damn thing trying to move into her place, I sign on that she will be partially deranged or utterly cold LN)
Sorry side tracked, do you think Mystra will put the squeeze on Lloth, and through some sort of high maagic of whatever, forces her to cough up the essences of the few drow gods she absorbed, and do some sort of timey whimey thing (ty dr who) that will, with maybe Corellens help restore the drow maiden and the dark theif? |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 11:10:42
|
I'd prefer the Archfey solution that Brian James and Eric Menge proposed for the Menzo book, as it makes Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's behaviour in LP make more sense, but at this point anything that doesn't defile logic would go for me. Thing is Lolth didn't absorb any essence during LP. Kiarans was ''forgotten''; E and V simply vanished (it's not clear whether the ML is actually dead or not).
Anyway, to answer your question, I really doubt that WotC will consider the drow matter. Considering that they cut the archfey thingy from the Menzo book despite the authors' insistence and despite art being already made for it, and that Brian said that the book was pretty much our last chance to see a followup to LP, I'd say that the chances of it happening are slim at best. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 Jul 2013 11:11:27 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 22:21:26
|
yes but were ides on hiow to fix it for 5e even in the mix when they decided to cut it?
I dont see their point though, in all of their modules and many of the novels that deal with the drow, they are usually the followers of loth. stab you in the front if your looking over your shoulder or poisoning the matron mother's bath water type of drow.
the following drow may not count.
Lireal b. yeah tahts how she started, but at the end of her tale, she was a wizard cleric of either mystra or selune.
Drizzt doesnt count much as he was a renegade from the start.
the drow that was in the hunter's blade that ended up wielding cutter, kinda counts but even he left it behind.
Jarlaxle, well thats another conspiracy , from his coating of magical items that he wears, it is hard to determine his true alignment and he gets written off as ne or just e or unaligned. just how he treats athrogate and the fact he wanted to make amends with entreri also acts like non evil or non lolthite.
the drow that do count are the ones that followed Eilistrae or vhearune and outside silverfall and the daughter of the drow series, I cant think of any other where the non lothite drow played a huge role in the novels.( and no to me wotsq and LP do not count for anything) |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 23:00:55
|
quote:
yes but were ides on hiow to fix it for 5e even in the mix when they decided to cut it?
I hope so, but seeing an author who had insight into this matter that discouraged about it, surely puts me in the same mood.
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 11:03:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Anyway, to answer your question, I really doubt that WotC will consider the drow matter. Considering that they cut the archfey thingy from the Menzo book despite the authors' insistence and despite art being already made for it, and that Brian said that the book was pretty much our last chance to see a followup to LP, I'd say that the chances of it happening are slim at best.
WotC can always change their minds. After all, a lot of the 5e stuff such as having lots of deities goes against the 4e FR design. Also, I thought it was mentioned that it is one specific person over at WotC holding up the process. WotC experiences pretty high turnover, so maybe in a few years. I would rather AO just restore E and V to divinity as part of the Sundering than the Archfey thing, but whatever gets the job done. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 12:30:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
WotC can always change their minds. After all, a lot of the 5e stuff such as having lots of deities goes against the 4e FR design.
Yeah, but the change in the Menzo book was tailored towards 5e. Even its structure has something of the ''edition neutrality''.
quote:
Also, I thought it was mentioned that it is one specific person over at WotC holding up the process.
Wasn't aware of that, but I doubt it. AFAIK, it's not just a single person who decides about changes. If so, it'd be one of the lamest things ever.
quote:
WotC experiences pretty high turnover, so maybe in a few years.
You mean Soon (tm)?
Yes, it is possible, but -as I said- not probable at all (according to what I've gathered aroud).
quote:
I would rather AO just restore E and V to divinity as part of the Sundering than the Archfey thing, but whatever gets the job done.
I prefer the Archfey solution because it is actual (and fitting) lore, unlike ''Ao writes stuff on his notepad and problems are solved''. Also being archfey would allow them to act more like ''leaders'' and inspirators and be a bit closer to their followers, which would fit them better IMO.
But I agree with you, anything logical would do the job. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Aug 2013 12:31:51 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Why is lloth a greater god?
