| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 29 Jul 2013 : 22:24:33
I understand she kicked out most of her foes within the race, and that drow are stronger then the everyday race, but how does that make her a greater god in comparison of other dietys that get worshiped by more then just one race?
Shouldn't she at most , be a mid-level diety? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 03:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
I didn't even think finder was still around after 3rd edition.
The 4E list of FR deities was not comprehensive, and some deities simply weren't mentioned... Nobanion is a notable example, since he was mentioned in a web article, and then they went back and removed that reference later the same day the article was published.
Indeed.
The "Wailing Years" article saw Nobanion demoted from deity to exarch as a result of the removed reference. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 21:43:35
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
I didn't even think finder was still around after 3rd edition.
The 4E list of FR deities was not comprehensive, and some deities simply weren't mentioned... Nobanion is a notable example, since he was mentioned in a web article, and then they went back and removed that reference later the same day the article was published. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 20:40:07
I didn't even think finder was still around after 3rd edition. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 20:38:04
Good point silverwolf! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 13:00:13
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Wonder what happen with moander's porfilio. Why didn't lolth get it.
Because Finder grabbed it and respun it. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 06:10:06
do you really want drow to be under the affect of rot? |
| jerrod |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 05:49:35
Wonder what happen with moander's porfilio. Why didn't lolth get it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 14:03:48
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
<-< this REALLY was not the thread for that topic.
My train of thought was inspired by the posts just previous to mine.
People are siting the 'distaste' of certain 4e designers for lore changes/omissions in the recent past, and I was pointing out that a lot of them are seeking other options at this time (thus strengthening the argument that they are dissatisfied with something).
And like I was trying to say (perhaps not very well), these things may be on a personal level, and have nothing to do with how good 5eFR is going to be - I still have very high hopes in that regard. I just think a lot of the folks who were there for 4e are not going to 'be around' for 5e, either for personal reasons (objections?), or because WotC is not interested in using them at this time (scapegoatism).
The stuff regarding the Drow and their pantheon all play into this - what happens on Toril does NOT stay on Toril. I've been saying that for years, but this is the first time I've applied it to the RW. If LP was as wildly unpopular as many of us feel it was, they may just decide to back-peddle over that series and render it pointless (which is part of this whole thing thats pissing-off a lot of writers/designers... IF that truly is the case)
I also feel some major announcements will be made at Gencon. At least, I would think there should be, after last year. They need to keep the buzz going, before folks start forgetting about D&D and FR. For instance, some lore regarding the Dark Seldarine should be in order; if Ed truly is in charge, why wouldn't they want to use two of his most popular creations? |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 02:34:08
That's not a bad explanation Gyor but I don't see how withdrawing her presence from anywhere would be a good thing. Doing so would cause her to lose what power/energy she gets from that plane. I like the idea of the remaining spiders acting as her 'presence' on other worlds though... perhaps they are 'Demon Queen of Spiders' on those worlds where she is not accepted as a deity...not a bad pathway to power IMO. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 23:46:10
Yes worshippers are not the only source of power for dieties there is also something to.do with how well thier portofolio is doing as well, soul energy in the case of the devil god and possibly other possiblities.
In Lloth's case I suspect it was a combination of purifying ritual and interplanae realigning. In other words each spider may have repersented her in a different world, all divided and drawn back together into a new whole. If this central Lloth has a presence where the fragmented Lloth's did, boosting her power in many worlds would be as simple as withdrawing her presence from worlds with little value or in which she is only a marginal player, and redirecting that extra power to worlds like Toril.
The surviving Spiders would be verisons of Lloth on other worlds that for some reason could not be merged into the new Lloth.
Also Lloth is worshipped by beings other then the Drow, such as verious spider peoples, followers of Mounder, the Drows slaves possibly others (Toril is a big world with many contients).
|
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 23:46:09
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I prefer the Archfey solution because it is actual (and fitting) lore, unlike ''Ao writes stuff on his notepad and problems are solved''. Also being archfey would allow them to act more like ''leaders'' and inspirators and be a bit closer to their followers, which would fit them better IMO.
I had a longer better response, but the site just ate it.
That is precisely why I prefer the Ao hand wave solution. The sundering is already doing a soft reboot on the geography and the pantheon. I don't see the value in trying to make a tie into what is generally acknowledge as bad lore. I would rather take advantage of the fresh start. That way the devs can focus on providing new lore rather than constantly getting mired down defending the lead up/transition events. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 21:15:38
<-< this REALLY was not the thread for that topic. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 18:38:48
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Others - who are not 'in house' - have been ramping-up their side projects (to the point of starting their own companies.. even RAS).
The only thing I can read into all of that is that a lot of designers have decided NOT to put all there eggs in one basket. The question is, WHY? If the future of FR really looked all that bright (to these people who should be able to see what is coming), then why wouldn't they throw every effort they have behind FR/WotC, instead of pursuing other options?
Well, some designers may want to create their own game and world as a personal achievement, like when you make something actually good and are satisfied with your job (as the James brothers are doing with Red Aegis). If they see the opportunity to get some revenue while doing this, why not? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 18:21:07
What's wrong with doing side projects? A freelancer can't rely (or should not, if he or she is smart) on just a single revenue stream from a single employer. Even if that was an option, that doesn't mean that the company would let them do everything they wanted -- I can't see WotC, for example, supporting a setting dealing heavily with laser-wielding cyborg psionicists.
So the most likely reason for people doing other things is either that they need more money, they want more than they're getting, they want a more secure income, and/or that they simply want to do more than just play in a single setting. There is nothing more to read into it without projecting your own thoughts into the mix.
Remember, Ed himself told me -- in a private email exchange, and without prompting -- that he was excited about what was coming for the Realms. If he is excited, that's enough for me. Especially when there isn't even enough info to speculate otherwise.
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 18:19:07
Well, if WotC would get off their hind-ends and give us some of the info they PROMISED us maybe we would have a clearer idea of what the heck is going on. At this point all I want is Ed at the helm as I know he will do his best to create a workable solution. And personally, they could do a complete reset of the campaign and I'd be happy but I doubt they will...in which case I want lore that makes SENSE. I hate that some good writer/designers have left but we can't blame them (they have to make a living after all). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 17:33:05
Bruce Cordell left. Not sure what that means.
Others - who are not 'in house' - have been ramping-up their side projects (to the point of starting their own companies.. even RAS).
The only thing I can read into all of that is that a lot of designers have decided NOT to put all there eggs in one basket. The question is, WHY? If the future of FR really looked all that bright (to these people who should be able to see what is coming), then why wouldn't they throw every effort they have behind FR/WotC, instead of pursuing other options?
I see a lot of discouragement, from both sides of the 'edition wars'; thats not good. I don't think anyone (in the know) is truly happy with the solution they are coming up with. Now, their own agenda (not casting negative aspirations here - EVRYONE has "their own agenda") may not really be the same thing as what the fans want (and over-generalization, I realize), so the Realms WE get may be to our liking, but not to the liking of those who have been working on the Realms for the past few years (anyone who has worked on 4e).
Since I see people on all sides 'running for the hills', I think that 5eFR may be more of a 'new vision' for The Realms, rather then a hodgepodge of 1e/2e/3e & 4e (in other words, instead of what Erik DeBie was shooting for in his thread - marrying together all the disparate lore - they intend more of a 'soft reboot' scenario). In order to make it more like the 'classic Realms', it means chucking-out a lot of the lore that has been written in the past few years (which would obviously rumple the feathers of those that designed for it). The 'Ao solution' is a bit heavy-handed, but something like that would be required to do what I propose here. Anything less and they really wouldn't need this uber-RSE (The Sundering 2.0).
Just IMO is all. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 14:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I prefer the Archfey solution because it is actual (and fitting) lore, unlike ''Ao writes stuff on his notepad and problems are solved''. Also being archfey would allow them to act more like ''leaders'' and inspirators and be a bit closer to their followers, which would fit them better IMO.
But I agree with you, anything logical would do the job.
I'm not cool with the idea of saying "these two that we previously told you were deities are actually archfey."
The idea is that they became archfey because their ''divinity'' was used to remove that Balor curse from the drow. It still doesn't make that much sense (since that removal wasn't really needed by anyone, nor the curse had any impact on the lives of the drow who followed Eilistraee -the only ones freed from it-), but it is acceptable IMO (especially considering that the authors had to give a meaning to the out of character behaviour that LP events describe, which actually implies that the ML turned her back to the vast majority of the drow).
Also, I think that this concept is fitting because -as I said- the siblings would be able to be closer to their followers, which is appropriate for what these two characters stand for and want to achieve -IMO, ofc-.
But again, at this point I'd be fine with any soultion. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 13:52:05
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I prefer the Archfey solution because it is actual (and fitting) lore, unlike ''Ao writes stuff on his notepad and problems are solved''. Also being archfey would allow them to act more like ''leaders'' and inspirators and be a bit closer to their followers, which would fit them better IMO.
But I agree with you, anything logical would do the job.
I'm not cool with the idea of saying "these two that we previously told you were deities are actually archfey." |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 12:30:04
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
WotC can always change their minds. After all, a lot of the 5e stuff such as having lots of deities goes against the 4e FR design.
Yeah, but the change in the Menzo book was tailored towards 5e. Even its structure has something of the ''edition neutrality''.
quote:
Also, I thought it was mentioned that it is one specific person over at WotC holding up the process.
Wasn't aware of that, but I doubt it. AFAIK, it's not just a single person who decides about changes. If so, it'd be one of the lamest things ever.
quote:
WotC experiences pretty high turnover, so maybe in a few years.
You mean Soon (tm)? 
Yes, it is possible, but -as I said- not probable at all (according to what I've gathered aroud).
quote:
I would rather AO just restore E and V to divinity as part of the Sundering than the Archfey thing, but whatever gets the job done.
I prefer the Archfey solution because it is actual (and fitting) lore, unlike ''Ao writes stuff on his notepad and problems are solved''. Also being archfey would allow them to act more like ''leaders'' and inspirators and be a bit closer to their followers, which would fit them better IMO.
But I agree with you, anything logical would do the job. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 11:03:43
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Anyway, to answer your question, I really doubt that WotC will consider the drow matter. Considering that they cut the archfey thingy from the Menzo book despite the authors' insistence and despite art being already made for it, and that Brian said that the book was pretty much our last chance to see a followup to LP, I'd say that the chances of it happening are slim at best.
WotC can always change their minds. After all, a lot of the 5e stuff such as having lots of deities goes against the 4e FR design. Also, I thought it was mentioned that it is one specific person over at WotC holding up the process. WotC experiences pretty high turnover, so maybe in a few years. I would rather AO just restore E and V to divinity as part of the Sundering than the Archfey thing, but whatever gets the job done. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 23:00:55
quote:
yes but were ides on hiow to fix it for 5e even in the mix when they decided to cut it?
I hope so, but seeing an author who had insight into this matter that discouraged about it, surely puts me in the same mood.
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| sfdragon |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 22:21:26
yes but were ides on hiow to fix it for 5e even in the mix when they decided to cut it?
I dont see their point though, in all of their modules and many of the novels that deal with the drow, they are usually the followers of loth. stab you in the front if your looking over your shoulder or poisoning the matron mother's bath water type of drow.
the following drow may not count.
Lireal b. yeah tahts how she started, but at the end of her tale, she was a wizard cleric of either mystra or selune.
Drizzt doesnt count much as he was a renegade from the start.
the drow that was in the hunter's blade that ended up wielding cutter, kinda counts but even he left it behind.
Jarlaxle, well thats another conspiracy , from his coating of magical items that he wears, it is hard to determine his true alignment and he gets written off as ne or just e or unaligned. just how he treats athrogate and the fact he wanted to make amends with entreri also acts like non evil or non lolthite.
the drow that do count are the ones that followed Eilistrae or vhearune and outside silverfall and the daughter of the drow series, I cant think of any other where the non lothite drow played a huge role in the novels.( and no to me wotsq and LP do not count for anything) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 11:10:42
I'd prefer the Archfey solution that Brian James and Eric Menge proposed for the Menzo book, as it makes Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's behaviour in LP make more sense, but at this point anything that doesn't defile logic would go for me. Thing is Lolth didn't absorb any essence during LP. Kiarans was ''forgotten''; E and V simply vanished (it's not clear whether the ML is actually dead or not).
Anyway, to answer your question, I really doubt that WotC will consider the drow matter. Considering that they cut the archfey thingy from the Menzo book despite the authors' insistence and despite art being already made for it, and that Brian said that the book was pretty much our last chance to see a followup to LP, I'd say that the chances of it happening are slim at best. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 10:26:40
I have a theory I would like to propose for 5e.
Although we did not get much out of it, it is still cannon that Lloth tried to control the weave and failed. Do you think once mystra gets restored ((she has a rather large revenge list between lloth , cyric, and nearly every other damn thing trying to move into her place, I sign on that she will be partially deranged or utterly cold LN)
Sorry side tracked, do you think Mystra will put the squeeze on Lloth, and through some sort of high maagic of whatever, forces her to cough up the essences of the few drow gods she absorbed, and do some sort of timey whimey thing (ty dr who) that will, with maybe Corellens help restore the drow maiden and the dark theif? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 09:48:34
quote:
I like the masked lady too! I always felt eilistraee had to much of her mothers feministic traits and really left males as much stuck out as lolth did. Only through merging with het brother was she really able to get pass that weakness.had she lived I would have enjoyed bringing her worship to the forefront of my realms campaign. With her and vhearaun merged,it would have made a intermediate deity equal to the old lolth in power.by the way why did both thief gods have to die? Is there a conspiracy?
Eilistraee was depicted as ''sexist'' in those novels for a reason I really don't understand. Her being sexist is contradictory to what she stands for.
Even if her clergy is described as women only (which I consider extremely stupid tbh, but I guess it was done to keep the flavor of a nurturing ''mother-ish'' goddess), men can expect equal treatment by her followers (there was an online supplement to the FR CS -or Player Guide, don't recall- by SKR about drow and it specifically said that. Also nothing in her lore let understand that males are treated as second class persons, quite the contrary...).
Also, you don't need to mash people together in order to have them change their mind...
Btw, seeing that you like the Masked Lady, you can totally bring her in your campaing if you wish. Just because canon removed her doesn't mean that you can't include her in your setting,
@Silverwolfer. I'll quote myself:
quote:
Eilistraee didn't really sacrifice IMO. It is completely out of her character for a couple reasons:
1)Why had the drow to become wood elves again? What did they gain? Drow are proud people, I'm sure there are many Liriel-like dark elves among the eilistraeens (and last time I checked the other ones were fine with being drow) and they would never want this, nor Eilistraee would force it down their throats (which basically is what happened: no choice on mortal side).
I've already said it, but the Dark Maiden and her followers mean ''redemption'' as in taking a stand and forging one's own future instead of being brainwashed by Lolth, not as in being turned into a wood elf or being ''purified'' for being born a drow. This is the opposite of what she stands for.
2)Eilistraee would never turn her back to the vast majority of the drow, especially not just to give 20% of them something that they don't want/need. It really makes little sense. Also she put so much effort in this quest, I'd find it hard to believe that she just wanted to leave it to Corellon (and even if she wanted his help, why not just take it instead of this?).
She really isn't the kind of deity that forces things down the throats of her followers and surely doesn't consider them to be ''hers'' (on the contrary she encourages their freedom of expression and of choosing their own lives).
This aspect of LP is one of things that pisses me off the most. She promotes acceptance: scrapping a big part of her followers' identity only to have them included in the ''VIP'' part of Arvandor (they could already go to her domain, which is in it) does't sound like her, at all.
Also all of this doesn't make sense, since Corellon knows that drow are merely elves, considering that it was him who just painted them black.
I believe WotC merely wished to get rid of good drow and did this thing so that they are now elves. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 09:09:59
I like the masked lady too! I always felt eilistraee had to much of her mothers feministic traits and really left males as much stuck out as lolth did. Only through merging with het brother was she really able to get pass that weakness.had she lived I would have enjoyed bringing her worship to the forefront of my realms campaign. With her and vhearaun merged,it would have made a intermediate deity equal to the old lolth in power.by the way why did both thief gods have to die? Is there a conspiracy? |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 06:06:05
I don't really have a problem with Lloth being a Greater Deity, but in my campaign her domain is still in the Abyss. Though I'd have to agree that the story of her ascendance was far to convoluted and incredulous.
The Masked Lady concept I liked, but it didn't last long enough to be flushed out or for anyone to get an idea of how it would have actually played out. Personally, I disliked the losing both El and Vhaerun as their roles within the Drow pantheon always made sense to me. While Sel and Ki always seemed like they were simply thrown into the mix in order to meet some minimum quota. That being said, I disagree with the way they treated and then removed. Needless to say, I'm curious as to how this will all be sorted out in 5e.
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| silverwolfer |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 05:22:40
Drow are not Drow due to them being...drow *uhg I hate using this to explain.
If you were going to have your followers become back under the point that corllean would accept * or be forced to accept* You can't have then wandering about as just drow, but you change them back to the original state with MAGIC! An because they were here followers * meaning hers to do with as she pleases(I think) , she polymorphed them into what use to fall under the chief elf dudes domains. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 03:55:32
Methinks 5e will fix all of this (too many people have a problem with the events as described).
I agree with many of the sentiments expressed although I want Elis back (the drow need a good deity to worship IMO). I do like the Masked Lady though provided that good drow can worship her and she does NOT fall into evil (sorry Aldrick, I just have a diff opinion here).
I dont like drow becoming green elves again (of course, Im dont like the idea of green elves becoming drow to begin with). IMO, the magic used only affected the initial group of green elves, so altering their descendants makes no sense to me. I admit I'm thinking in terms of genetics (science rather than magic/fantasy) here. To me, their descendants would be 'true' drow and unaffected by lifting/dispelling the initial magic. Example: Wizard permanently changes another wizard into a goat (mentally and physically). Goat-mage impregnates other goat. Transmutation is dispelled...does this make baby goat a human? If two mages are turned into goats and have babies and are changed back...do the babies then become human? I think not. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 03:03:57
CAn you back up your statement Mr Head, on dealing with mask worship going to the Elist-Vhaer combo? As far as am aware, Mask dies almost in 1374, while Elist "dies" in 1379. That is a really short time for worship to change hands between gods, of drastically different pantheons that have nothing to do with each other, except maybe a few overlaying strands or sects of worshipers.
IF what you hold to say is true, then Vhaer would have been changed very harshly from a drow focused diety, to one that had more concerns then just Lloth, and could see as becoming a new sort of Mask, and focusing his conserns more towards the overworld and not just his native pantehon, much like you see with sharess. |
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