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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  10:18:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron


quote:
Also, if that was all that was needed, why didn't Lolth have them target Corellon? He's the one that cast her out, and he's the one she's got the most serious mad-on against.


It was Eilistraee's worshiper (game piece) that did it. At that time in the story the Crones were messing with the way magic works in the Underdark, and said wizard was trying, and failing, to stop it.

Markus is right. The whole series is a winner take all game of sava, between Lolth and her daughter, with AO watching. Kira-chica joined the game in progress. The actions of the mortal characters were dictated by the goddesses moves on the board.

Nobody on Toril is praying to her. They don't remember her name. A great many of her worshipers were undead, and IIRC, her magic no longer sustains them.


That just shifts the question: why wasn't Lolth's name erased? That would've been a big step towards solving the indoctrination of the drow as well...

quote:
Lolth started the game to control all dark elven souls, but Correlon took his daughters place once she lost.



As I see it, Corellon only took previous Eilistraee's (and Vhaeraun's) followers as his. It is even said that Eilistraee's quest is no longer necessary because ''the unwilling were cast down'' (seriously...). In fact Corellon isn't doing anything to try to redeem and free the drow, and his clerics just hate them and kill them on sight as it was before. Corellon sitting at the table was something to symbolize the conflict between Lolth and the Seldarine IMO (and it would make little sense to give Corellon Eilistraee's role, as it was him who powered the genius move to doom a whole race for no valid reason). To further support this is the fact that the new lore that was in store for the siblings assumed that the game stripped them of their divinity and that they would've continued their quest as archfey (a conclusion that would fit them, and without Corellon stepping in, AFAIK). Alas, this solution didn't make it into the published Realms (not yet, at least), but it's something...

Also the whole game thingy is something that they could've easily avoided. Besides being a cheap tool to remove deities, it made even more prominent the idea that drow act mainly out of divine will, not out of their own volition (and extended it even to Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites, who are supposed to be free...), which is some ugly concept. And it was a cruel game, and Lolth's game. None of the deities would've accepted to play by Lolth's ''rules'', even more so because it wasn't necessary for their goals (they could've easily continued what they were doing without it).

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Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 10:31:07
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  10:28:38  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Matt James says above that Kia-chica lost the memory of herself, as well. This means that mortal magic can brainwash a deity.


And how exactly does that tally up with being immune to mind influencing effects too? Could that be explained please?

Being made to forget your own name, or who or what you are is a mind-influencing effect in my book.

(Sorry, I did say I was jumping out of the thread.)

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2025 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  10:53:57  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

Well, a lot of people stated it as a fact that mystra was killed by getting a stick punched on her head
Speaking of her - in which way the proposed circumstances of Qilue's death differ from the circumstances of her birth? Remembering that Mystra acted immediately and Eilistraee got enough of a divine rank to run proper multi-presence.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I object to mortals being able to so easily take out a deity.
[...]
And I don't recall anything saying that cutting off worship equalled the instant destruction of the deity. Kia-chica should have had the option of trying to re-establish worship, in the Realms or elsewhere, instead of instantly keeling over.
I refferred above to "power reserve inside her domain" - it would eventually go stale, yup... eventually.
But there's also equaling "forget the name" with "cutting off worship", what with other names, titles, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Alys et al: Jergal is also a god of fate. I don't think we need one particular god to be the arbiter of such a nebulous concept.
And Tyche was, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Wooly et al: I don't think there's anything "easy" about putting together a pseudo-high magic spell from ancient elven artifacts from before the Descent and successfully casting it. (Or maybe you do think that was easy, just as Karsus casting his spell to consume Mystryl was easy?)
Exactly! IMO, if the premise of High Magic was "a certain kind of magical creatures studies magic and their interaction with it so deep the latter approaches psionics from the other end, and it's still inherently appliable only to them" as it seems to be, and it's still a challenge to the experienced casters, acting through tools alone should not happen at all.
And again, if such tricks were possible at all, elves who should know what it's about really well - such as Mythantar - would already try this hard and long before resorting to purely arcane imitations.
So, the drow who are not what S'Sri'TelQuessir were did it going just by some recovered knowledge - outdated also because the Weave isn't what it once was either - where the old masters failed despite being up to date and knowing the matter inside and out personally? Who's next - a bunch of Red Wizards with that magic switchboard?
As to Karsus, he tried to briefly (though long enough that it would break the Weave beyond repair) borrow her power, no? And even this was ludicrously hard - what with those enchanted ancient gold dragon gizzards and much more magical power than the Weave could afford to give after this very incident. And due to the latter consideration, without other problems the most expectable outcome would be: nothing happens, then suddenly Azuth drops in and gives a brief speech along the line "Hey, you know, that was a really good idea... but sadly... NO - and don't even try this again".
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Nor do I think it destroyed Kiaransalee, so much as set her back a bit. Remember, she did much the same thing to Orcus, who wasn't even a god, and he came back. I highly doubt the Revenancer was put down for the count by this event.
Also, there's no evidence that Kiaransalee suffered in other planes, only in Realmspace. The pseudo-high magic severed her connection to the Realms, but she might be just as powerful elsewhere.
That "erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself" thing. IMHO even affecting from outside (other than with summons creating spell crystals, which theoretically may still be caught by the wrong guy and/or become demarax chow) petitioners and mortals inside her own domain - where a deity's will is supposed to be almost a law of nature - would be too much.

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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  14:02:58  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder



So, the drow who are not what S'Sri'TelQuessir were did it going just by some recovered knowledge - outdated also because the Weave isn't what it once was either - where the old masters failed despite being up to date and knowing the matter inside and out personally? Who's next - a bunch of Red Wizards with that magic switchboard?
As to Karsus, he tried to briefly (though long enough that it would break the Weave beyond repair) borrow her power, no? And even this was ludicrously hard - what with those enchanted ancient gold dragon gizzards and much more magical power than the Weave could afford to give after this very incident. And due to the latter consideration, without other problems the most expectable outcome would be: nothing happens, then suddenly Azuth drops in and gives a brief speech along the line "Hey, you know, that was a really good idea... but sadly... NO - and don't even try this again".
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Nor do I think it destroyed Kiaransalee, so much as set her back a bit. Remember, she did much the same thing to Orcus, who wasn't even a god, and he came back. I highly doubt the Revenancer was put down for the count by this event.
Also, there's no evidence that Kiaransalee suffered in other planes, only in Realmspace. The pseudo-high magic severed her connection to the Realms, but she might be just as powerful elsewhere.
That "erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself" thing. IMHO even affecting from outside (other than with summons creating spell crystals, which theoretically may still be caught by the wrong guy and/or become demarax chow) petitioners and mortals inside her own domain - where a deity's will is supposed to be almost a law of nature - would be too much.



First of all the drow might not be able to cast High magic spells but Dark elves are perfectly capable, why shouldn't they be. They are as elvish as any sun elf or moon elf. Drow cant cast them because they cannot ever trust each other sufficiently. Also since there were young drow wizards acting as the conduits , the kiaras could simply read their minds to catch up on the changes to the weave.
Finally her home plane was at that time joined together with Lolths and one of the conditions of the game was that deities would use their followers to fight to the DEATH. Thus normal rules do not apply, you dont like it dont play.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33971 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  16:34:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

Finally her home plane was at that time joined together with Lolths and one of the conditions of the game was that deities would use their followers to fight to the DEATH. Thus normal rules do not apply, you dont like it dont play.



So why did she agree to play a game that could result in her destruction?

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  16:42:01  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's one of the fallacies in that thing. Every deity in the drow pantheon simply accepted to play Lolth's game, even tho they didn't need it at all to pursue their goals (and even tho the game was cruel, as it involved mortal lives wasted as pawns, which neither eilistraeens nor vhaerunites are supposed to be). It was simply some tool to remove the pantheon.

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Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 16:45:05
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:04:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think we can all agree there were a few major holes in Lady Penitent.

I don't know why the drow deities agreed to such a thing, in less they all figured it was the only chance they would ever get to defeat Lolth for good. Flimsy, I know. The 'risking everything to defeat ultimate evil' is certainly not a drow personality trait. I've also already explained how the game itself may have tipped the laws of probability in the favor of the magical ritual cast (a ritual that should not have worked otherwise, nor ever will again).

Very wishy-washy, but still explainable (barely).

As for Kiaransalee forgetting herself - I think that she possibly only had one incarnation (greater Avatar) within Realmspace, and that was what was affected. That Avatar was fueled by the Torillian Drow's worship, and once that power-source was severed, the Avatar withered and died (why they needed to add in the part about her forgetting herself I have no idea - it was just 'insult to injury').

We have a precedent of sorts for this - the Mulan deities. Their center of divine power (self?) was not allowed entry into Realmspace, so individual, demigod-esque Incarnataions were allowed. This meant that in their case, "what you see is what you get" (the avatar IS the deity, in the case of FR). Kiaransalee may have been given a similar 'visa' (Ao's rules of Interloping have never been fully revealed). That was what was affected by the ritual. This means that as far as Torillians are concerned, it all went-down precisely as the novels say it did. However, in a greater, multiversal theater, much more (or less) was actually going on. Whats true for one 'reality' (world) may not be true for others.

As for Drow not being able to cast High Magic, I think that is because High Magic is at least in-part powered by the Seldarine (they put their stamp of approval on it, an give it a boost). That being the case, this means that other power-sources should be able to fuel the magic itself (like the anti-Seldarine). Another option is that Corellon finally allowed it, because Eilistraee didn't really belong in the anti-Seldarine in the first place. take your pick.

As I said, its all explainable, but its a shame we have to pile so many excuses on top of each other to make it all work. Lore should never require that level of tinkering to make it palatable.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2012 17:06:32
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:11:39  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


As for Kiaransalee forgetting herself - I think that she possibly only had one incarnation (greater Avatar) within Realmspace, and that was what was affected. That Avatar was fueled by the Torillian Drow's worship, and once that power-source was severed, the Avatar withered and died (why they needed to add in the part about her forgetting herself I have no idea - it was just 'insult to injury').



Some of her worshipers were undeath. She did have a strong temple complex beneath the Galena mountains and there were many banshees present in that one. Should their worship not be sufficient to keep her divine status intact?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:17:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think we can all agree there were a few major holes in Lady Penitent.

I don't know why the drow deities agreed to such a thing, in less they all figured it was the only chance they would ever get to defeat Lolth for good. Flimsy, I know. The 'risking everything to defeat ultimate evil' is certainly not a drow personality trait.


That, and there's also the fact that not everyone wanted to kill Lolth. Namely, Eilistraee. Her goal isn't killing Lolth, as her struggle for freedom is in making the drow understand that a different kind of life is possible, in guiding them to find their own way to redemption, freedom and -ultimately- happiness (and -of course- in protecting them while doing so). Killing Lolth would've brought on the drow another WotSQ-like cataclysm (you know, mages vs priestesses, other races trying to destroy the drow), leading to yet another huge bloodshed, as drow minds' wouldn't be changed by the simple death of Lolth: one someone is brainwashed you don't simply snap fingers and make him/her reasonable (and this is a huge part in Eilistraee's goal).

At this point I'm only ranting, and I apologize for the OT.

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Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 17:18:59
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:30:54  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Kia: We've already discussed why the "immune to mind-affecting magic" didn't apply. Kiaransalee was depowered substantially when her followers were taken from her, and her divine protections failed.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

Finally her home plane was at that time joined together with Lolths and one of the conditions of the game was that deities would use their followers to fight to the DEATH. Thus normal rules do not apply, you dont like it dont play.
So why did she agree to play a game that could result in her destruction?
Because of the potential rewards of winning.

If Eilistraee won, she would accomplish her goal of breaking Lolth's stranglehold on the drow. This battle with Lolth was the culmination of her entire existence.

If Vhaeraun won, he would accomplish his goal of killing Lolth and destroying the matriarchy of the drow. Again, culmination of his entire existence.

If Kiaransalee won, she would have her vengeance on Lolth and dominate the drow pantheon (as the only deity left).

That's just the nature of the game. The stakes were high, and if you don't take risks, you'll never win. This was Eilistraee and the other gods' best chance, and Eilistraee achieved at least a partial victory.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33971 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:43:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for Kiaransalee forgetting herself - I think that she possibly only had one incarnation (greater Avatar) within Realmspace, and that was what was affected. That Avatar was fueled by the Torillian Drow's worship, and once that power-source was severed, the Avatar withered and died (why they needed to add in the part about her forgetting herself I have no idea - it was just 'insult to injury').


No, Kiaransalee herself had a presence in Realmspace -- it wasn't just an avatar, she had a real presence in the sphere, the same as Lolth or Ghaunadaur.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:46:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee achieved basically nothing. Sacrificing to redeem only a very small part of all the drow means simply turning her back to the vast majority of the dark elves, because they were supposedly ''unwilling'' to redeem (which makes no sense), leaving them without a beacon of hope to guide them to freedom. That automatically left out children, people who never heard or thought about an alternative and all the rest, to give her followers something they didn't need (they were already free from Lolth's web, and I don't recall them being unhappy with being drow). And why would she sacrifice for a so small group of drow if she had the chance of going on and extend it to all drow. Now this would be completely different if she gave away only her divinity, continuing her quest nonetheless as it doesn't require power to be achieved, because what she wishes for the drow is a change of mentality which she can only kindly help and guide them to find, not impose on them. In fact this is a fitting conclusion, one I was very happy with when I first heard about it...

But the books, as good as they might be, were in truth simply tools to get rid of the Dark Seldarine. They weren't meant to add something to the setting, or to conclude those deities' story in a fitting way, in fact they simply deprived the Realms of something cool.

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Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 17:54:43
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:49:23  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's problematic and not a complete victory, indeed. And yes, there's lots to talk about. I have my own problems with it.

And let's please not cast aspersions on the "purpose" of the books as "tools to get rid of the Dark Seldarine." You don't know that. I don't know that. And I think that accusation really cheapens Lisa's hard work on a VERY touchy subject.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33971 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:52:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Kia: We've already discussed why the "immune to mind-affecting magic" didn't apply. Kiaransalee was depowered substantially when her followers were taken from her, and her divine protections failed.


The events weren't concurrent? Because if it was, it means the spell would affect her at the same time it was affecting her worshippers, so she still had power when it hit.

And that's assuming that the effect of losing worshippers would have an immediate impact, which I also find implausible. A person doesn't starve to death the second there is no longer any food in front of them...

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


That's just the nature of the game. The stakes were high, and if you don't take risks, you'll never win. This was Eilistraee and the other gods' best chance, and Eilistraee achieved at least a partial victory.


I agree with the need to take risks, but I don't see a need to risk your very existence on a game. I would expect deities to take the long view, since they exist for millenia, instead of acting like a drunken Vegas gambler.

The best chance today may not be as good as the chance you have tomorrow.

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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  17:58:03  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have not been able to convince myself to actually read the lady penitient serie, but seems to me, it would have been logical for Kiaransalee to prefer a long conflict.

The longer conflict, the more drow would be killed, that is, the more drow could be converted to undeads, that is, the more power to her church

The best scenario from Kiaransalees point of view would be elistrae and loth's followers fighting each other or Loth's followers and humans fighting each other. The longer the conflict, the more dead could be raised as undead

Edited by - Gustaveren on 30 Aug 2012 17:59:37
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  18:00:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

It's problematic and not a complete victory, indeed. And yes, there's lots to talk about. I have my own problems with it.

And let's please not cast aspersions on the "purpose" of the books as "tools to get rid of the Dark Seldarine." You don't know that. I don't know that. And I think that accusation really cheapens Lisa's hard work on a VERY touchy subject.

Cheers



Not only it isn't a complete victory (actually I'd say a loss, because the vast majority of drow is still ''doomed'', whie the others gained basically nothing), but it isn't coherent with E's goal, not what she would've done...

I'm not bashing Lisa, as I'm aware that she didn't come up with the idea of removing the deities from canon. But I cannot imagine any other purpose for those books aside from removing the DS (for the then incoming 4e) with max profit (I'm not sure that such novels would've been written if the DS weren't drow -which sell a lot-. I'm inclined to believe that they would have been left to the fate of many other deities removed by 4e, i.e. swept away from the Spellplague).

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Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 18:02:09
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  18:08:54  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kiaransalee could have planned a backupstrategy as the one used by Orcus

Kiaransalee did after all have lots of experience trying to fight Orcus by trying to remove his name from all records, that is, Kiaransalee could have a good idea of what would be necessary to cheat dead (does not hurt that she is goddess of undeath) in case she lost in the game.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:08:58  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Kia: We've already discussed why the "immune to mind-affecting magic" didn't apply. Kiaransalee was depowered substantially when her followers were taken from her, and her divine protections failed.



So that implies by losing followers/believers/worshippers she ceased to be divine. Hmm, not sure I like that explanation. Actually, I don't like the whole thing.

Thanks anyway.

Death is Life
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:14:36  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn


So that implies by losing followers/believers/worshippers she ceased to be divine.


That was part of AO's ruling after the Times of Trouble.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:28:07  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren

quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn


So that implies by losing followers/believers/worshippers she ceased to be divine.


That was part of AO's ruling after the Times of Trouble.



True but we've had this debate on Candlekeep a number of times. The main gist seems to be that deific power isn't directly related to number of worshippers. After all Grumbar is a greater deity but how many worshippers does he/she/it actually have.

In the end it boils down to whether The Lady Penitent novels are accepted as canon or not. My vote, obviously, is they are not. Of course, if they are then I'll suggest that we also accept Paul Kidd's novel "Queen of the Demonweb Pits"

Death is Life
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  19:47:26  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Wooly: I think it's pretty clear that her worshipers forgot her, she shrank down, and then she forgot herself. And yes, divine power comes directly from mortal worship, and there's no reason to think there's a *time delay* on the connection. But ultimately, it's the symbol that's important: Kiaransalee was playing this game for her life, because she chose to do it because the stakes were acceptable. She lost the game, and being "forgotten out of existence" was just the mechanism for her "death."

@All: There's a difference between "this doesn't make sense" and "I don't like this." And what I'm reading from your guys' posts is more "I don't like this," which I totally understand. As I've said I have problems with it too. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

As I said, this game with Lolth provided a real chance for the deities involved to win. It was the best chance they've had in thousands of years. They already have been playing a "long game" since the Descent in the first place. Even a long game has an endgame, and that's what this might have been. It didn't actually turn out that way*, but it had the potential to do so.

The intention of the event seems to be that Eilistraee "won" through sacrifice--i.e., won by losing. Which is a pretty valid and standard religious thing, and one I find very much in keeping with her purpose in the Realms.

*Who's to say this was even the end? In fact, we know it isn't. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun still exist. As I said earlier, the battle for the hearts and souls of the drow will endure as long as Lolth exists.

If we're seriously going to keep grousing about how uncomfortable or displeased we all are with the series (and I've said myself that I have problems with its ending too), this thread loses interest for me.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  20:10:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie


The intention of the event seems to be that Eilistraee "won" through sacrifice--i.e., won by losing. Which is a pretty valid and standard religious thing, and one I find very much in keeping with her purpose in the Realms.

*Who's to say this was even the end? In fact, we know it isn't. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun still exist. As I said earlier, the battle for the hearts and souls of the drow will endure as long as Lolth exists.

Cheers



Eilistraee would've won through sacrifice if the whole race was redeemed. It would've been fitting in those conditions. Her act was instead basically turning her back to the rest -i.e. vast majority- of drow (and in order to accomplish very little...) which isn't fitting for her. The ending of this series shouldn't be left as it is. The solution proposed of late is good, and would actually enrich her sacrifice: partial victory for partial sacrifice, one that wouldn't prevent her from continuing to lead her fight for the drow.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 20:11:59
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  20:20:20  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For thousands of years, the souls of Eilistraees faithful have been kept out of Arvandor. This is no longer the case. At the least, this is a victory for the already dead.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  20:29:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee's plane (where her followers's souls should go) is a very cool place to go (and is supposed to be in Arvandor...). It isn't very fair to turn one's back to a lot of ''suffering'' living people to provide the dead with an even cooler place...

Also Eilistraee's battle is for freedom of the living, the dead who died while being her followers are already free.

Point is that in any way you put it, Eilistraee's ''sacrifice'' hasn't good reasons behind it, and for this she should be returned in some form (and possibly the rest of the drow pantheon as well) for her quest to continue.

But as Erik said, this is derailing the thread, so I think to be done with this particular part of the discussion...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 20:31:32
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  21:06:36  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I don't really want to be on this side of the argument anyway. I loved the books, but hated the outcome.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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