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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  03:17:33  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That reminds me- is there an actual god/dess of fate in Faerun? I don't recall one off-hand, other than the elven god Labelas.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

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"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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sfdragon
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  03:55:43  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Tosses Alystra a coin.


call it for it truly is fickle

I hope it answers your question... for it can truly be taken that way

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  04:19:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just thought of something.

'FATE' might be the name Ao is known under in Zakhara.

After all, sex is meaningless at that level of power. People will see whatever they expect to see (or be stricken blind, if that were his/her preference).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2012 04:20:04
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  04:25:30  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tymora and Beshaba are goddesses of luck- NOT the same thing. I'm talking about "Destiny" or the idea of fate like in Greek or Norse mythology. The concept that everyone has a predestined path or course, or that certain things are fated to happen. Those two do not cover that accurately. They are good for the fickle finger of luck, but not for fate as a hero's destiny kind of concept.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  04:41:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since we're on the topic, I want to make sure I understand what happened in these books I've not read...

A group of drow High Mages casts a High Magic spell that removes Kia-chica's name from everywhere on Toril... Is this correct? Because if it is, I've got serious issues with it...

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  05:37:22  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Aulduron
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  06:19:35  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This was the spells intent

"What better way to end Kiaransalee's worship than by erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself."

The spell was cast while her worshipers were in battle. When it was finished, they all looked around, confused, as if they didn't even know their names. They were easily slaughtered. Even the Eilistreans could not remember her name.

As the spell was cast, the 3 goddesses were playing savaa. Eilistraee's wizard piece captured Kiaransalee's mother piece (it was agreed that a goddess would die should her mother be captured). Her remaining pieces drifted away as mist.

"she leaned forward and took Kiaransalee's Mother piece from the board. As the Goddess of Death shrank to a tiny, forlorn pile of tattered skin flakes, the Mother piece turned to ash in Eilistraee's hand.

"Kiaransalee was gone. Her domain lingered a moment longer. Then it's tombstone cracked and crumbled, it's graves sagged in and became empty hollows. As it disappeared, the domains of Eilistraee and Lolth came together to fill the gap"

Take from this what you will.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

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TBeholder
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2025 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  06:58:33  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: And another thing/pet-peeve - if they plan on keeping Zakhara around (and they should!), then I think FATE should be in-charge of the Tablets of Fate. I mean, its kind of a no-brainer, don't you think? They got her friggin' name on them!
Maybe she helped to sort out this madhouse? It seems to be her style.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just thought of something.
'FATE' might be the name Ao is known under in Zakhara.
Maybe, but why? Suppose he just had a world-shaping party and invited a bunch of pals-demiurges - Fate, Maztica and... who else, that dragon?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

the Imaskari Godwall being an obvious exception, but we still don't know all the details of what that entailed. Either the Imaskari had some Over-god level help, or they figured out how to change the rules outside the rulebook
[...]
I don't think the Imaskari were as powerful as assumed - I think they were just clever enough to figure out how to do something Ao couldn't even see.
Ao normally doesn't interfere with mortals, that's all. Imaskari cast their spell, their business.
I don't see why Imaskari shouldn't have been able to do it: what their "planar seal" did is wide-area denial for some connections, and divine links to Outer Planes are, in the end, kept merely by mortals in the affected area - so why not?
Greyhawk spell Rary's Plane Truth (7-lvl Divination) reveals this sort of a connection, among the other things, so why not other interactions?
Some aftereffects could have been caused by 'jamming into the seal, or because Ao already had rules in place according to which those crashing the party physically have to leave the same way and they didn't care to - we know that extraplanars hate being cut off in The Flow (there's evidence of gods entering/looking into it "correctly", but it's not what happened with those avatars) and they weren't that incensed () anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent.
Yup, changed connection to the Weave. Oh, wait, what with the Windwalker?
Also, using High Magic just from tools, seriously? That's not how it's described, to say the least - besides, if this was possible, elves would already do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron

"What better way to end Kiaransalee's worship than by erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself."
...and it's also rather hilarious that they would have that power and, of all gods, start with the Revenancer who until Maerimydra was not exactly a major force.
Also, the other gods apparently are even more short-sighted than Vyshaan nobles - who after all, upon hearing what happened to the Ssri'Tel'Quessir had enough of a clue to start an assassination war?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 29 Aug 2012 07:14:06
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  10:44:42  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron

This was the spells intent

"What better way to end Kiaransalee's worship than by erasing her name from every worshipers mind? Even from the mind of the very goddess herself."

The spell was cast while her worshipers were in battle. When it was finished, they all looked around, confused, as if they didn't even know their names. They were easily slaughtered. Even the Eilistreans could not remember her name.

As the spell was cast, the 3 goddesses were playing savaa. Eilistraee's wizard piece captured Kiaransalee's mother piece (it was agreed that a goddess would die should her mother be captured). Her remaining pieces drifted away as mist.

"she leaned forward and took Kiaransalee's Mother piece from the board. As the Goddess of Death shrank to a tiny, forlorn pile of tattered skin flakes, the Mother piece turned to ash in Eilistraee's hand.

"Kiaransalee was gone. Her domain lingered a moment longer. Then it's tombstone cracked and crumbled, it's graves sagged in and became empty hollows. As it disappeared, the domains of Eilistraee and Lolth came together to fill the gap"

Take from this what you will.



From the City of the Spider Queen web enhancement:
"Kiaransalee is immune to .... mind-influencing effects."

A spell that makes her forget her own name is surely a mind-influencing effect.

From my own point of view, it's a moot point since I don't accept the events of The Lady Penitent books. I'll jump back out, and stay out of this thread now. :)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33879 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  11:04:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.



Okay, that's not quite as bad, then.

I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.

And from other posts, it appears it was an instant "hey, you're now forgotten, and so you're now dead!" thing. That shouldn't work like that...

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  11:39:53  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Others here have stated this as 'fact', several times, and I take their word for it simply because I have never read the books that revolve around that storyline.


Well, a lot of people stated it as a fact that mystra was killed by getting a stick punched on her head
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  13:55:49  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.



Okay, that's not quite as bad, then.

I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.

And from other posts, it appears it was an instant "hey, you're now forgotten, and so you're now dead!" thing. That shouldn't work like that...



It was not quite like that as the mortals in question were the pawns of the drow gods and goddesses involved in a homicidal winner takes all game to the death. Frankly i thought Kiaransalees death was handled rather well and in a memorable manner.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  15:11:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Yes, basically. They were not technically High Mages, though- they were using their family Telu'Kiiras to cast a High Magic ritual, because drow lost the ability to use High Magic in the DEscent. The Kiiras were from ancient Miyerritar before it was destroyed. And the ritual erased her name from mortal memory. Possible, but I don't know if that would also erase her from written records. That may have been a loop-hole intentionally left in.



Okay, that's not quite as bad, then.

I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.

And from other posts, it appears it was an instant "hey, you're now forgotten, and so you're now dead!" thing. That shouldn't work like that...



It was not quite like that as the mortals in question were the pawns of the drow gods and goddesses involved in a homicidal winner takes all game to the death. Frankly i thought Kiaransalees death was handled rather well and in a memorable manner.



I object to mortals being able to so easily take out a deity.

Also, if that was all that was needed, why didn't Lolth have them target Corellon? He's the one that cast her out, and he's the one she's got the most serious mad-on against.

And I don't recall anything saying that cutting off worship equalled the instant destruction of the deity. Kia-chica should have had the option of trying to re-establish worship, in the Realms or elsewhere, instead of instantly keeling over.

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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  16:37:57  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Alys et al: Jergal is also a god of fate. I don't think we need one particular god to be the arbiter of such a nebulous concept.

Also, just because they're called the "Tablets of Fate" doesn't necessarily mean they have anything to do with a god of fate. I suspect that they're called this simply because they list out with deities are permitted ("fated") to exist. Also, they can be changed or destroyed. Doesn't sound much like fate as we're discussing it.

@Wooly et al: I don't think there's anything "easy" about putting together a pseudo-high magic spell from ancient elven artifacts from before the Descent and successfully casting it. (Or maybe you do think that was easy, just as Karsus casting his spell to consume Mystryl was easy?)

I don't think deific *existence* is informed by the level of mortal worship, but rather deific *power.* Removing her worshipers from the table made Kiaransalee suddenly less powerful (perhaps no more powerful in the Realms than a high-level mortal) and she had to surrender rather than continue on the game. That may have looked like she "died," but only because that was the agreement in the sava game.

Nor do I think it destroyed Kiaransalee, so much as set her back a bit. Remember, she did much the same thing to Orcus, who wasn't even a god, and he came back. I highly doubt the Revenancer was put down for the count by this event.

Also, there's no evidence that Kiaransalee suffered in other planes, only in Realmspace. The pseudo-high magic severed her connection to the Realms, but she might be just as powerful elsewhere.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  21:11:55  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gah! Erik is bringing up many of the points I was about to until I read page 2.

Kiaransalee likely still exists in some fashion, just not with Toril. She could, theoretically return, but it would require remnants of lore that speaks of her. This would have to ignite a fire of worshippers that then help her to regain power. Ultimately, this is the absolute most difficult path. She is, for all intents and purposes, dead.

Edit to add: She also lost the memory of herself, which makes having followers really difficult. She would likely deny her existance (thus she goes *poof*)

Edited by - Matt James on 29 Aug 2012 21:13:57
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  21:22:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So mortal magic can brainwash a deity?

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Bakra
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:00:15  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So mortal magic can brainwash a deity?



Mighty Mortal Magic wiped out the memory from her followers. This reduced her to.. well to a status less than a demigod but slightly stronger than the strongest Archmage. Any benefits from being a deity were reduced or vanished altogether. For example, her immunity to mind altering magics went away.

Then again I haven't read the series so my speculation could be totally wrong.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:17:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, here's my problem with all this... Saying that making worshippers forget the deity results in the immediate powering down of the deity is like saying the deity is a lamp and the worships are the electricity. Pull the plug, the light goes out.

I don't see deities as being tied to worship on a real-time basis like that. If that was the case, Auppenser would have kacked as soon as the Killing Wave hit Jhaamdath, and the imprisoned sliver of Moander in Tsornyl would have died a few years before the Spellplague. Auppenser didn't die, and that chunk of Moander is still around, despite not having any worship at all, since Finder stole his divinity and Lolth is stealing his worship.

Matt James says above that Kia-chica lost the memory of herself, as well. This means that mortal magic can brainwash a deity... If mortal magic can do this, why not use mortal magic to create new deities? Why not use mortal magic to convince deity A that they don't cover this portfolio, but actually this other one? Why not use mortal magic to forcibly meld deities B and C? And so on...

And again, why was a lesser enemy of Lolth targeted, instead of her biggest enemy?

Letting mortals control or affect deities like this opens way too big a can of worms. It blurs the line between mortal and divinity, and makes the gods seem like just another powerful entity to oppose. It lessens and cheapens them, and comes across as implausible.

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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:29:57  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Wooly: I think this was exactly the point of the Era of Upheaval. AO was showing the deities the consequences of their actions, which was to demean themselves to becoming like mortals. Up until the ToT, they were, after all, acting like mortals, and not like gods.

Moving forward, after the Tablets of Fate are reforged, I suspect none of this will be a problem.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  22:46:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can see deities being allowed to suffer consequences -- but not to the point of "I cast a spell and deity A keels over dead!" That sounds like something out of a munchkin gaming session, not something that belongs in a setting like the Realms.

There's a difference between allowing a slap on the wrist and being nerfed.

It's just over the top, kinda like something I once heard about from Star Trek, with someone find the Off switch for the entire Borg race.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Aug 2012 22:47:43
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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  23:06:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not that I want to defend Lady Penitent, but I think it was a bit more then mortals casting the spell and everyone forgetting. Even using artifacts to cast High Magic - something I am loathe to accept - can be reasoned-out.

It wasn't about what the mortals did, or High magic, or Telu'Kiira, or even about the drow. It was about the Sava game. The 'magic ritual' was the tool used by the rules of the game to enact the final edict. Had Kiaransalee not lost the Sava game, what they did would not be possible. The game bent probability to allow that course of events to happen.

If not that, something else would have been contrived in the mortal realm to make Kiaransalee 'go away', because that was the rules she agreed to. Deities are bound by their agreements, and the universe will warp around such contracts to see them fulfilled.

Kinda cheesy, and certainly not lore I want to defend, but it is what it is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  23:24:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So it's all because a deity agreed to play a game, with someone who wanted to destroy her, that would allow this destruction to happen?

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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Aug 2012 :  23:25:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said, it is what it is. I don't like it either.

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The Sage
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  02:05:16  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

Gah! Erik is bringing up many of the points I was about to until I read page 2.

Kiaransalee likely still exists in some fashion, just not with Toril. She could, theoretically return, but it would require remnants of lore that speaks of her. This would have to ignite a fire of worshippers that then help her to regain power. Ultimately, this is the absolute most difficult path. She is, for all intents and purposes, dead.
But what of the worshippers who still pray to her?

This is what I queried with Erik's postings earlier. Ed's always told us that deities never truly die. That even when their bodies are floating dormant and decayed on the Astral Plane, that a spark of divinity still remains in their forms due to the slightest utterances of what remains of their faithful on the mortal sphere.

So how can a deity be removed and forgotten from the Tablets... unless, of course, the removal of a deity's name also results in them being "forgotten" by their worshipper base as well?
quote:
Edit to add: She also lost the memory of herself, which makes having followers really difficult. She would likely deny her existance (thus she goes *poof*)

Ah. So even if some worshippers still remained and prayed to her to keep that divine spark alive, Kiaransalee probably wouldn't be able to acknowledge it or derive strength from it due to the fact that she would have no idea what it all means.

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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 30 Aug 2012 :  09:32:22  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Saying that making worshippers forget the deity results in the immediate powering down of the deity is like saying the deity is a lamp and the worships are the electricity. Pull the plug, the light goes out.


Wasn't that the point of the Time of Troubles?

quote:
Also, if that was all that was needed, why didn't Lolth have them target Corellon? He's the one that cast her out, and he's the one she's got the most serious mad-on against.


It was Eilistraee's worshiper (game piece) that did it. At that time in the story the Crones were messing with the way magic works in the Underdark, and said wizard was trying, and failing, to stop it.

Markus is right. The whole series is a winner take all game of sava, between Lolth and her daughter, with AO watching. Kira-chica joined the game in progress. The actions of the mortal characters were dictated by the goddesses moves on the board.

Nobody on Toril is praying to her. They don't remember her name. A great many of her worshipers were undead, and IIRC, her magic no longer sustains them.

Lolth started the game to control all dark elven souls, but Correlon took his daughters place once she lost.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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