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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 15:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There's a difference between "this doesn't make sense" and "I don't like this." And what I'm reading from your guys' posts is more "I don't like this," which I totally understand. As I've said I have problems with it too. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.
Erik, I don't like it because it doesn't make sense to me. Risking your existence in a game, for something you may be able to achieve later if you wait, doesn't make sense. Starving the second your food is taken away doesn't make sense. Mortal magic brainwashing gods doesn't make sense.
But I guess this is going to be another of those times that you and I simply agree to disagree. 
The other members of the Dark seldarine had been playing this game ever since the Descent and in all that time what had they accomplished?
A stalemate at best ,but a slow erosion of their worship and power by Lolth is what most had to look forward to. Suddenly they got this chance to take a gamble and beat everything on no last throw of the dice. Are you saying that as Drow they would have done anything other than take that chance?
When there are only two possible outcomes, and one of them is annihilation, yeah, I think they would have declined to take that chance, and waited for an opportunity where they wouldn't get burned if it didn't go right.
You don't bet your entire existence on one flip of a coin.
The drow deities, by surviving as long as they have against Lolth, have shown that they are intelligent and capable of long-term planning.
A good schemer comes up with a plan where the utter failure of his plans has little or no blowback on him.
Betting your entire existence on something that could very easily not go your way is foolish in the extreme, quite reckless, and doesn't track with past behavior.
Even if they weren't winning now, we're talking about deities. A century or two might have brought about an entirely different set of circumstances. And even if it didn't, they'd still be around to try something else.
So no, I don't think that any rational being would have agreed to the conditions of this game -- and especially not a deity. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 17:13:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In relation to the original Miyeritari dark elves being transformed into drow, I gave my take on that in GHotR in my Descent of the Drow prose sidebar. Basically, there were a significant chunk of Miyeritari dark elves, who after the Dark Disaster, became less than paragons of goodness due to the existengies (sp?) of their situation. I am of the view that not all dark elves were transformed into drow but that the number was so small in a genetic sense that over the millenia that followed their bloodlines were watered down such that there were no pureblood dark elves left after -5000 DR or so.
-- George Krashos
In other words, Ilythiir Elves WERE green (Sylvan) Elves.
At that time, the 'sub-races' that came about later didn't exist yet. Green, Wild, Wood, Dark, etc were all just 'Elves' back then. In those days, the term 'dark' may not have even had anything to do with skin color - it may have been something similar to how it works on Krynn.
What the descent curse did was "make their visage as dark as their hearts".
As for why we only know them as 'wholly evil' - its simple. Think about what happened to them - thrust into a completely alien environment with no kowledge of it and no skills to survive (in that hostile environment). Canonically, they even started to eat each other. Now think about our RW, the day after all the electricity stops working. Have any of you ever read Lucifer's Hammer? Great book, and scary as hell. In a situation where there is no central Gov't and people are despearte for food and shelter, people WILL prey upon each other, and only the strong (and truly vile) survive.
Thats the situation the Drow were in. Thousands of years of sophisticated elven civilization wiped-out in an instant. Their survival at all is testament to their tenacity and strength (and brutality of the survivors, which is what their new culture became based upon). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 01:53:18
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| I think it's complete and utter BS what they did to my favourite Drow goddess. How could MORTALS (NON GODS) have the capability to erase a GOD'S name from the multiverse?? That should be impossible! Even IF they're using High Magic. Apparently, Kiaransalee's name was erased from EVERYTHING. Everyone's mind. However, I'm not sure if they mentioned her being erased from text. I'll have to look in Storm of the Dead again to see. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 02:58:15
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ahhh but what mind you as far as she is concerned, is was it in the enter mutliverse or just the realms.
high magic should only effect the world it is cast on.
but to me, that whole series, not at my table. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 03:09:43
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| High Magic should not be able to even TOUCH deities like that. Too many times has FR made deities look so weak; basically as high leveled mortals. They are GODS. They have powers vastly beyond the control of mortals. If High Magic was so powerful, shouldn't other Elves be able to do with other gods as they so pleased? If so, why haven't they already killed Lolth?!?! This is BEYOND ridiculous. FR's deities (though my favourites of any fantasy setting next to TES and Warhammer) need to step it up and BE gods. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 08:27:17
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By the ever watching gaze of Helm, that high magic did not even touch her, it only affected her follwores imo.
never did read the book, but most of its what happened is noticeable on the fr wiki
also by my Lord Helm's ever shining bastard sword, that was not high magic that banished/killed/ whatever her, it was AO's decree on that salva game they played, winner took all. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 03 Sep 2012 08:28:54 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 12:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
High Magic should not be able to even TOUCH deities like that. Too many times has FR made deities look so weak; basically as high leveled mortals. They are GODS. They have powers vastly beyond the control of mortals. If High Magic was so powerful, shouldn't other Elves be able to do with other gods as they so pleased? If so, why haven't they already killed Lolth?!?! This is BEYOND ridiculous. FR's deities (though my favourites of any fantasy setting next to TES and Warhammer) need to step it up and BE gods.
Unless of course Ao specifically removed the safeguards on the "tool" he was using (called the tablets of fate) to manage the gods. I understand that a lot of people hate the idea of what was done (I was mad as hell to see Kiaransalee go away, less so Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, but didn't want to see them go either), but if you'll get past your hate for just a second and think about what's being said by WotC and what I'm saying here... you'll see an opportunity. If the only reason Kiaransalee could do what she did to Orcus... and what was in turn done to Kiaransalee... was because Ao temporarily made it possible, then when Ao reforms the tablets of fate to perform the sundering, that capability should not be possible again.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 13:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
High Magic should not be able to even TOUCH deities like that. Too many times has FR made deities look so weak; basically as high leveled mortals. They are GODS. They have powers vastly beyond the control of mortals. If High Magic was so powerful, shouldn't other Elves be able to do with other gods as they so pleased? If so, why haven't they already killed Lolth?!?! This is BEYOND ridiculous. FR's deities (though my favourites of any fantasy setting next to TES and Warhammer) need to step it up and BE gods.
Unless of course Ao specifically removed the safeguards on the "tool" he was using (called the tablets of fate) to manage the gods. I understand that a lot of people hate the idea of what was done (I was mad as hell to see Kiaransalee go away, less so Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, but didn't want to see them go either), but if you'll get past your hate for just a second and think about what's being said by WotC and what I'm saying here... you'll see an opportunity. If the only reason Kiaransalee could do what she did to Orcus... and what was in turn done to Kiaransalee... was because Ao temporarily made it possible, then when Ao reforms the tablets of fate to perform the sundering, that capability should not be possible again.
How do you know if Ao made it possible or not? It's never stated in the canon. The whole idea of mortals being able to challenge the gods they way they have done in FR makes the gods so easily killable. The only deity killing that I find remotely acceptable is when Cavatina killed Selvetarm. She directly faced him, nearly dying, but killed him with the Crescent Blade. I still don't want him or any other of the gods killed.
This whole notion of mortals holding this power over gods is completely ridiculous. This shouldn't be allowed. No mortal should be able to erase a deity's name from their own mind and every other mortal and deity's mind. What they did to Kiaransalee was a steaming pile of crap. If Orcus was able to become a god again, then Kiaransalee should just as easily reawaken and become a goddess again, albeit under a different name. But I find her whole death unacceptable. I don't recognize the events of the LP novels to be canon. I don't hate Lisa for this; I liked the novels overall, just not the events. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 14:06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
High Magic should not be able to even TOUCH deities like that. Too many times has FR made deities look so weak; basically as high leveled mortals. They are GODS. They have powers vastly beyond the control of mortals. If High Magic was so powerful, shouldn't other Elves be able to do with other gods as they so pleased? If so, why haven't they already killed Lolth?!?! This is BEYOND ridiculous. FR's deities (though my favourites of any fantasy setting next to TES and Warhammer) need to step it up and BE gods.
Unless of course Ao specifically removed the safeguards on the "tool" he was using (called the tablets of fate) to manage the gods. I understand that a lot of people hate the idea of what was done (I was mad as hell to see Kiaransalee go away, less so Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, but didn't want to see them go either), but if you'll get past your hate for just a second and think about what's being said by WotC and what I'm saying here... you'll see an opportunity. If the only reason Kiaransalee could do what she did to Orcus... and what was in turn done to Kiaransalee... was because Ao temporarily made it possible, then when Ao reforms the tablets of fate to perform the sundering, that capability should not be possible again.
How do you know if Ao made it possible or not? It's never stated in the canon. The whole idea of mortals being able to challenge the gods they way they have done in FR makes the gods so easily killable. The only deity killing that I find remotely acceptable is when Cavatina killed Selvetarm. She directly faced him, nearly dying, but killed him with the Crescent Blade. I still don't want him or any other of the gods killed.
This whole notion of mortals holding this power over gods is completely ridiculous. This shouldn't be allowed. No mortal should be able to erase a deity's name from their own mind and every other mortal and deity's mind. What they did to Kiaransalee was a steaming pile of crap. If Orcus was able to become a god again, then Kiaransalee should just as easily reawaken and become a goddess again, albeit under a different name. But I find her whole death unacceptable. I don't recognize the events of the LP novels to be canon. I don't hate Lisa for this; I liked the novels overall, just not the events.
I'm not saying that Ao did. I'm saying they (WotC)are announcing that with the sundering that the tablets of fate are being "restored" and that is being used as a reason for an upcoming RSE that hopefully fixes the realms for 5e. I'm then stating that PERHAPS it could be stated that some of this silliness that happened (such as high magic removing Kiaransalee), can be hand-waved away as Ao made it temporarily possible as punishment for gods. Very few people did think having high magic capable of doing this was a good possibility, but most of us here also like to not throw out old lore, but rather find a reason that makes it more palatable while possibly allowing for something that they'd like to see happen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 18:13:56
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FR's gods have always been very much like the Greek gods. Not the aloof, almost-never-seen deities of modern religions (and even many ancient ones). In the Greek myths, the gods were always screwing around with mortals and causing problems, from wars to procreation. In fact, they behaved very much like super-power mortals.
I have never liked this facet of FR - I prefer the more aloof deities we see in other settings. However, IMG I can run them however I want, so I have no problem with them being this way in the canon Realms. I wish they'd tone it down a notch (or five), but it has been part of the setting since the beginning.
Actually, since the ToT....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 21:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
The other members of the Dark seldarine had been playing this game ever since the Descent and in all that time what had they accomplished?
A stalemate at best ,but a slow erosion of their worship and power by Lolth is what most had to look forward to.
Funny thing is... I had the opposite impression.
Vhaerun: general status unknown, but from what we know - now he got a working stronghold on Shadow, the Jaezred Chaulssin up and running on Prime, lots of clans on surface, even if occasionally suffering from Lolthite raids or provocations, the Dark Dagger in human cities and even some clowns in contact with Eldreth Veluuthra. Does this look like "fly-or-die desperate"? Except the last point, that is. 
Kiaransalee: as was already mentioned, isn't really in a great hurry. Carved a tasty bit of power out of the hide of Orcus, may as well look for another. Drow aren't going to become less vengeful anytime soon, either. Desperate?
Eilistrae: worship 22%, dedicated worship 10-12%. Moondancers were allied with - and somewhat accepted in - Cormanthor (!) back from Shadow Wars; more recently e.g. at Ravens Bluff and the discussion was about how much to accept them. Desperate?
Lolth: got big problems even in her sacred city even despite giving the rudder to Baenre who learned the lesson. And in many ways her theocracies suffer a very busy stagnation - the spider-loving ladies walk with the same whips as several millenia ago, no one captures the Twisted Tower anymore, etc. Development in arcane magic goes on and can keep them afloat in Underdark, but other Drow have the same - and it's a double-edged blade, as demonstrated by mentions Sshamath of thoughtfully thrown and eagerly received in Menzo the moment Silence became an open secret. Does this resemble a triumphant march?
So - the Spider Queen is clearly winning on Toril while others have dim prospects? Really? This smells of bullnarrativium, pardon my Lego(TM).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In relation to the original Miyeritari dark elves being transformed into drow, I gave my take on that in GHotR in my Descent of the Drow prose sidebar. Basically, there were a significant chunk of Miyeritari dark elves, who after the Dark Disaster, became less than paragons of goodness due to the existengies (sp?) of their situation. I am of the view that not all dark elves were transformed into drow but that the number was so small in a genetic sense that over the millenia that followed their bloodlines were watered down such that there were no pureblood dark elves left after -5000 DR or so.
-- George Krashos
In other words, Ilythiir Elves WERE green (Sylvan) Elves.
At that time, the 'sub-races' that came about later didn't exist yet. Green, Wild, Wood, Dark, etc were all just 'Elves' back then. In those days, the term 'dark' may not have even had anything to do with skin color - it may have been something similar to how it works on Krynn.
While they used that name for themselves even in that sidebar.
So, yet another pointless retcon? There's not already enough of attempts to make "something similar to how it works on Krynn"? 
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
shouldn't other Elves be able to do with other gods as they so pleased? If so, why haven't they already killed Lolth?!?!
I already mentioned the choice as ridiculous. And that it's even dumber than the Descent with its predictable follow-up. The difference, of course, is that any Drow who lived to high levels should know better than "go after the lest significant target and expose yourself to an attack, leaving the main foe triumphant". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 03 Sep 2012 21:32:58 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 21:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
[...]
Eilistrae: worship 22%, dedicated worship 10-12%. Moondancers were allied with - and somewhat accepted in - Cormanthor (!) back from Shadow Wars; more recently e.g. at Ravens Bluff and the discussion was about how much to accept them. Desperate?
[...]
Holy crap, 22%/10%... These many goodly drow kind of diminish the reason to find the struggle represented by Eilistraee intriguing. WotC shouldn't have removed Eilistraee or Vhaeraun (or the other drow deities) from canon, but they should simply have toned down their influence. For example, repeated and insistent lolthite drow raids against the small eilistraeens settlements would've cause their number to decreased drastically, or maybe all the lolthites who opportunistically worshipped Eilistraee during Lolth's silence (which I suppose to be the main reason of a so big number) could've come back to the Spider queen after that. Or WotC could've simply said that eilistraeens are very few: they wouldn't have contradicted any canon, because although Ed's opinion is surely worthy of much respect (more than some canon IMO), technically it isn't canon. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 01:02:08
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| If you're a true Realms fan, then the man who created the Realms word is as if spoken by Ao himself. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 01:02:49
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Why does that diminish it? Because she was actually "winning" for a change? Because more drow were getting the message? That makes NO sense to me. Sounds more like she was starting to build momentum, and Lolth was getting worried. And she(Lolth) SHOULD be. After the Silence, and all the chaos that it caused, she was starting to loose her hold on them already. Maybe if the other gods had just been patient and kept at it, they could have broken her hold entirely, over time. Wish cities like Sshamath around as an example, the drow would have started looking around for other ways to get what they wanted.
For that matter, why should they need to prune it back at all? Why not build up to some bigger conflict, like a war between the drow factions themselves? Alliances and betrayals by various groups would have made for a far more interesting story than what happened, I'll admit, and it would have created so much chaos and killed so many drow (on ALL sides) that they could have their "mysterious and rarely-seen" drow back again- because there would be so few left that they would have to have their own Retreat. Sounds like a winning plan to me. Eilistraee's gains in worshippers (And WHY would any of the former Lolthites go back after a taste of true freedom??!! THAT'S just ridiculous, IMO. Even Hallistra didn't truly go back to Lolth- she was tricked in the end into thinking Quilue/Eilistraee was a false image trying to trap her....) just showed that the stakes were rising, and as has been noted, Vaerhaun had also begun to gain more followers, and so did Kiaransalee and even Ghaunadaur- which just HAPPENED to be siphoning off power Lolth herself wanted. Someone(Lolth) has jealousy issues, methinks..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 01:49:09
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Well, I'd surely be happy to see Eilistraee winning (I think it's pretty much clear at this point); what I mean is that her charm (and her followers') is in being underdogs and rebels struggling for their ideals. They're supposed to be very strong willed and tenacious in the fight for freedom: once they shattered the shackles of indoctrination, they'd realize how dark the situation of their race is, how overwhelming the adversities are and despite this they'd still stand by their decision and carry on their and the Dark Maiden's quest. As I said in another thread, they are like a beacon of hope that desperately tries to shine in the utter impenetrable darkness, their strength being the will to not give up in this apparently impossible battle.
If they started forming large groups and being a significant percentage of drow, their struggle wouldn't be as intense or emotive, the strength of character of each Eilistraeen would be somehow diminished (in the sense that each of them would be less special and significant) -- their fight would move from the individual and personal level to a (as you proposed) 'faction war' one. Personally, this is not what makes me like Eilistraee so much (it is more of a Vhaerunite thing).
About turning back to Lolth, this is indeed possible. Many drow joined the Eilistraeens during the silence because of opportunism. Lolth's indoctrination is really deep in drow mind and many of them could've seen the followers of the Dark Maiden and their offering of acceptance and a shelter merely as something to exploit. Many of the ones who joined during the silence didn't taste any actual freedom, because it can only come from understanding, and getting rid of the poisonous concepts of lolthite dogma is a very personal goal that can be achieved only by the individual, and which cannot be given by anyone (Eilistraee understands this, and it is her MO to guide and help the drow in finding their own path to freedom).
PS: Oh, and Lolth has clear ego issues (therefore, as you said, jealousy ones). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Sep 2012 01:55:20 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 02:39:25
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I actually preferred 3e CS on the state of drow in the realms. There were several locations that housed surface colonies of relatively small, but growing communities of non-lolth following drow. Of course, none of those groups had earned the trust of any of the other surface races, so the whole racism against drow still came in to play. However, there was more than just another matriarchal Lolth ran city again. As I have noted elsewhere, I like the idea of a surface drow city that is more neutral in tone that has the various drow clerical organizations competing for influence with the people.
I would complete support the 4e stance of returning drow to their roots and Drizzt being the one sole exception to the rule. However, once you start printing player's guides that encourage player characters to be drow, it is vastly more interesting if there is more to being a drow than another two scimitar wielding crusader against his people. I like Drizzt don't get me wrong. However, having other drow power groups in no way prevents players from making drizzt clones and reliving that exact same Drizzt experience. It only provides more options. Also, I don't understand why the FR drow have to fall perfectly in line with the core drow. The Eberron drow don't include Lolth at all. I don't see why FR cannot have a little variety of its own. I won't want Lolth cut out of the picture, but competition doesn't hurt. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:00:42
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I don't think it would be less intense or diminish their character. If anything, a full confrontation would strengthen their resolve, and make them even more important, because they would be fighting their most important battle. The one to save the drow race. Add in the various aspect of dealing with followers of Vaerhaun and the rest, and it becomes a really intriguing and epic tale. You referred to them and her as a beacon of hope, but that's just it. Beacons only work if they are FOLLOWED. A light does no good if no one ever sees it. By increasing their numbers, it would provide a greater chance of Lolth's followers to see and follow that light. I'd actually like to see them finally get the nerve- and numbers- to confront the Lolthites directly. Maybe not everywhere, but perhaps in at least one major settlement- there are plenty of cities that have never been detailed, and using one of them would also be a good chance to add new lore to the FR. Win-win.
As for the former Lolthites, there was a good part in the WotSQ books that dealt with that very idea. Sure, some of the Lolthites converted to Eil out of oportunism, but what starts that way, often ends up as a true conversion- like Hallistra's was (at least until Lolth stepped in directly and began to twist her mind). She really DID convert, even though she was eventually pulled back in by trickery. The fact that she had been twisted into something horrible didn't help, either. Sure, some of them might turn back, but I think that many WOULD begin to understand what they had been missing (as you mentioned), and it would end up as a true conversion. YMMV, of course, but once someone gets a glimpse of what they've been denied, it often stays with them for life. That's the point, I think, it's what's at the heart of her message. That they HAVE been denied something, and Lolth has lied to them. That's not something one just shakes off.
Keep in mind that in order to convert in the first place, they would have to have learned something of Eil and her faith and followers. Not easy to do in a drow city where Lolth rules. They would have had to have contact with drow who were already devoted to her- which would, indeed, show them what life without Lolth could be like. Heck, Liriel did just that- and SHE did it purely by accident! She was half-ready to convert after just one meeting with them, although granted she had only just begun her training as a priestess of Lolth. Still, the fact that she was already indoctrinated enough to threaten to kill Fyodor just for accidentally killing a spider says something about how easy it is to truly convert a drow who has never known anything else. And then there are/were the many males who had somehow managed to form their own little following of Vaerhaunites right under the noses of the Matrons of Menzo. Ryld and Phaeraun nearly joined them, and their rebellion very nearly took down Lolth's rule in that city. f not for the outside invasion pulling them together, there might have been a very different outcome. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:39:43
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| I don't think number of worshipers should determine a deity's power level. Indeed, a power level for a deity is a foolish concept of itself. Real world gods are not bound by this concept. Gods are gods. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 03:50:55
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| Ah, thank you for that lovely bit of insight! I wish I'd thought to say it myself. For game purposes, the only thing that should matter is how well "known" they are, or how fervant their followers actually are. For example, a god who is payed lip-service by an entire nation should not have as much power as one who is devoutly revered by a single city. The more places a deity is known and devoutly followed, the stronger he/she should be, regardless of how many people are actually in those places. Makes more sense than just "I have more followers than you, so I"m stronger, nyah!" |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 04:13:37
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I did it this way, as a rule of thumb -
Deities receive 'worship points' (WP) from their followers each day. The total of all these points helps maintain a god at a certain level. Even if they were exhaust most of their power doing something, within 24 hours they would be up to snuff again. This is why having worshipers is important - it almost acts in the same way regeneration works for mortals.
So my basic rule of thumb is that a person provides their patron deity with their level in worship points each day. That way, more powerful worshipers become very important. This is an automatic thing. On holy days this doubles, and on 'High Holy Days' it triples. For every four hours spent inside a temple worshiping it resets (so the deity gets the points again). In a major cathedral/main temple of the church, this can be reduced to just three hours. On a holy day this is reduced by an additional hour, and on a High Holy Day by two hours. This means on a High holy Day, every hour of worship spent in a major cathedral provides the god the character's level in WP (which is why some gods want 24 hour services on such days).
Performing a task in association with a deities portfolio (whether you worship them or not) provides the deity with with a number of points = how many 4-hour periods spent on task. Each prayer (not just saying the name) to a deity provides +1 points. Each ritual performed provides 1-5 points, depending on the importance of the ritual,and when it is performed. All multipliers for temples and holy days apply (except prayer - thats too be expected inside a temple or on a Holy Day).
I actually use none of the math - I just do this to get a rough idea on how deities get their power, and how they use it. For instance, they expand these points whenever they send a priest spells. Spells cost the god the spell's level in WP (so you can see how this would add up quickly). Also, deities use this power to do 'god stuff' (use their divine powers). Like I said, Its not meant to be an actual system, but rather, just a mental exercise to picture how divine energy is moved around.
Thus, a devout low-lev worshiper could provide as much power to their deity as a level 20 'rock star', but if the devout worshiper IS a rock star, then so much the better - the numbers increase exponentially.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2012 04:19:37 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 03:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Holy crap, 22%/10%... These many goodly drow kind of diminish the reason to find the struggle represented by Eilistraee intriguing. WotC shouldn't have removed Eilistraee or Vhaeraun (or the other drow deities) from canon, but they should simply have toned down their influence.
Good or neutral.
As to hthe numbers, that's about what's needed to be a credible threat, not just a punching bag.
Vhaerun probably got slightly more, especially in the non-exclusive part - what with thieves, all those grumpy drow males, hiding in the Lolthite communities and not insisting on radical changes right now. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 22:54:44
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I enjoyed the LP series, though yes, there were problems (I was not happy with the death of E and V. K...eh, she was interesting, but I wasn't as depressed). But are we supposed to completely disregard the events that happened in those since they apparently weren't canon? Were the drow NOT changed? I've shared my opinions on the change in other threads, but I'm curious. I'm all for E and V coming back (and I sincerely hope the Sundering makes it so the gods can't off each other so easily), and I think the events--namely the "brown" drow, if you will--should be addressed. I've read nothing about them in 4e. But to suddenly say the transformation never haven't would be a retcon, wouldn't it? If the events weren't supposed to happen, then how did the LP series get published?
A note about E's realm: from my understanding, while not directly part of Arvandor, it is pretty close to it, if I remember correctly. It wouldn't have been that big of a jump for the souls of Eilistraeen's followers to go from her realm into Arvandor.
Wow, this thread wasn't under active topics yesterday when I looked, but it is today, and it was apparently started in August.  I really wished I'd discovered this site sooner. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 23:52:00
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quote:
Were the drow NOT changed? I've shared my opinions on the change in other threads, but I'm curious. I'm all for E and V coming back (and I sincerely hope the Sundering makes it so the gods can't off each other so easily), and I think the events--namely the "brown" drow, if you will--should be addressed.
I was under the impression that the "brown drow" you are referring to are represented by the elves in 4e FR. If you check out second edition and third edition resources, you will find that elves in FR are never mentioned with dark colored skin although they did have some odds skin tones with hints of blue or green. In 4e FR, they make specific mention of the dark skinned non-drow elves. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 03:17:00
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| That's possible, but I remember in LP those who performed the high magic ritual (Q'arlynd and co) became dark elves with brown skin and black hair. The same thing happened to people like Cavatina (even though she was dead when it happened). I haven't read anything in 4e that makes a mention of "dark skinned non-drow elves". Can you point me in the direction of that information? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 13:25:29
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quote:
Elves are slender, athletic folk about as tall as humans. They have the same range of complexions as humans, tending more toward tan or brown hues. A typical elf ’s hair color is dark brown, autumn orange, mossy green, or deep gold. Elves’ ears are long and pointed, and their eyes are vibrant blue, violet, or green. Elves have little body hair, but they favor a wild and loose look to their hair.
4e's players handbook, page 41. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 13:46:53
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On the subject at hand; I hope not. I honestly do hope that Kiaransalee returns, if only so that Orcus may have his terrible and well deserved vengeance against the upstart.
Come to think of it, how'd she get lucky enough to survive his little rampage with the Final Word, anyway? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 15:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
First of all the drow might not be able to cast High magic spells but Dark elves are perfectly capable, why shouldn't they be. They are as elvish as any sun elf or moon elf. Drow cant cast them because they cannot ever trust each other sufficiently.
The first, exactly that - drow were changed to the degree that they got SLA and for their arcane magic used normally the surface was one big wild zone, and then changed again to remove incompatibilities, but SLA and resistance remained. At this point they aren't what they once were, while HM requires jumping through hoops in the "ideal" circumstances and with perfectly appliable and up-to-date lore.
The second is confusion of the arguments. If they can't use High Magic at all for some all-encompassing reason (like not being eligible users), answers on other, more limited (see also: rituals of Solitude) reasons doesn't help until the first problem is removed.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Killing Lolth would've brought on the drow another WotSQ-like cataclysm (you know, mages vs priestesses, other races trying to destroy the drow), leading to yet another huge bloodshed, as drow minds' wouldn't be changed by the simple death of Lolth
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Eilistraee achieved basically nothing. Sacrificing to redeem only a very small part of all the drow means simply turning her back to the vast majority of the dark elves, because they were supposedly ''unwilling'' to redeem (which makes no sense), leaving them without a beacon of hope to guide them to freedom.
I.e. her first goal is to make the drow want changes. And until they move in this direction far enough to shift the balance of power everywhere, Lolth's theocracy is the only thing standing between most drow settlements and fates of either Ched Nasad, or Chaulssin, or Golothaer and Telantiwar - take your pick.
Which on top of "I'm too lucky to die!" approach makes the deal more like "bet your own existence and any chance to fix things - against... a near-extinction of prospective converts in case you win". So, ah, the sheer divine genius of this plan continues to skillfully evade my vision. 
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think the events--namely the "brown" drow, if you will--should be addressed. I've read nothing about them in 4e. But to suddenly say the transformation never haven't would be a retcon, wouldn't it?
...and we can't have this. 
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I was under the impression that the "brown drow" you are referring to are represented by the elves in 4e FR. If you check out second edition and third edition resources, you will find that elves in FR are never mentioned with dark colored skin although they did have some odds skin tones with hints of blue or green.
Green elves get bark-brown and Gold reach darker bronze hues, IIRC.
But as to "brown drow", this was back in 2e Cormanthyr - drow reverted to "dark elf" proper status (via High Magic ritual) become "black" as in a dark-brown-skinned human as opposed to "black" as in obsidian of a drow or variations thereof. Radiation magic affinity and other such properties go away too, of course ("judge as a moon elf"). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2012 : 03:35:44
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As an aside, it was noted by another poster that the drow who followed Eilistraee and lived on the surface would face a schism between those who got changed and those who were "tainted". However, this is not the case. ALL those who followed her were changed, whether pure Miyeritar blood or not. The Miyeritari drow were simply ALSO among the transformed drow. That was part of the point, IIRC. They were distancing themselves from the Lolthites and all others by converting back to what they were meant to be. As a side note, this would have also made them no longer a target of Sheverashans, BASED ON APPEARACE ALONE. In other words, there would no longer be any question of who was who. "Dark" elf= safe, Drow=enemy. That was part of the reason for the ritual- to show once and for all which side they were on. Granted, there would have been some casualties in the Underdark, but I'm guessing that Quilue had some kind of information network in place to warn the ones below to get out of Dodge before the killing started. In fact, IIRC, her followers had already mostly convened in the Promenade temple, so there probably weren't many straglers to begin with.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 21:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
but it has been canonicaly stated that the Eldest is more powerful then Ao (and yeah, none of us likes that, but it is what it is).
Really? AFAIR he has been stated in the novel to be of demigod power
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I do strenuously object to using High Magic that way, though, and also to it being that easy for mortals to take out a deity.
I personally believe the deities were only killed because they agreed to bind their fate to their divine boardgame, not because anything the paltry mortals did.
IMO that's backed up by Selvetarm still standing with the other two in their game room after his supposed decapitation and only vanishing as his piece was taken from the board.
Same with Kia's fate, because even assuming that pretentious High Magic trick could do what it claimed, that wouldn't have killed a deity instantly. It would have started the long process of "divine starvation" during which Kia would slowly slide back through the divine ranks. As lesser power, that should take decades, if not centuries
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2013 : 02:13:56
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| The Sava board game seemed like a metaphor not a literal event to me? Your explanation would make sense though, Mirtek. I wonder if that is what Lisa Smedman and the powers that be had in mind. |
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Topic |
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Was Kiaransalee's name erased from the tablets
