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 Deities who were once mortal?
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe

USA
471 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  02:58:43  Show Profile Send Galuf the Dwarf a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Okay, so we can essentially confirm the following were formally mortal:
- Azuth
- Bane
- Bhaal
- Cyric
- Finder Wvyernspur
- Fzoul Chembryl (post-Spellplague)
- Gargauth (if you count being a devil as mortal)
- Kelemvor
- Myrkul
- Mystra (in her Midnight incarnation)
- Obould Many-Arrows (post-Spellplague)
- Uthgar
- Velsharoon

Some that are believed to be former mortals:
- Deep Duerra
- Gwaeron Windstrom
- Shevarash
- The Red Knight
- Torm

Can anyone confirm sources that confirm the latter, or even more than that? I swore I saw an entry in the Grand History of the Realms that confirmed Deep Duerra, but I can't vouch for that. That, and I'm a little busy with household responsibilities as of late, especially since my brother getting married next month.

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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:26:30  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Forgotten Realms Wiki confirms Sheverash, if that's good enough for you.

If it interests you, Tchazzar insists he was a deity for awhile. Kiaransalee was once mortal.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:40:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

You forgot Karsus. He ascended to become the god of magic, albeit for just a very short time.

Every beginning has an end.
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2272 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  03:52:19  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
savras


and umm possibly

Jergal and hte reason is NDA

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe

USA
471 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  04:16:51  Show Profile Send Galuf the Dwarf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

savras


and umm possibly

Jergal and hte reason is NDA



*sighs* So much lore denied by NDAs... I hate it.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  04:53:41  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's been speculation in the past as to whether Mask was a mortal before his divine ascension.

I've not read it, but I have learned that Shadowrealm suggests that Mask was actually not a mortal, but someone with a rather unexpected pedigree.

Can someone familiar with this novel either confirm or deny this?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:11:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra 1.0 was also a former mortal. We know very little about her, pre-apotheosis.

The Red Knight is a former mortal.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:12:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Red Knight is mortal - it was confirmed in the GHotR, IIRC.*

In another thread someone put a name to Mask's mortal persona, so I assume it is canon now.

The second incarnation of Shevarash was also definitey mortal, but I don't recall where that lore may be found (LK will probably know).

Valkur was also a mortal (although my assumption is that all demi-powers would obviously be former mortals).



*Wooly beat me to it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 05:18:47
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:21:26  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read Shadowrealm, but I'm not sure if he was mortal. I do know that he was a lesser being and got his divinity from another god.

Speaking of Mask, Erevis, Riven and Rivalen were all mortals who ascended.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:25:03  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A second incarnation of Shevarash? I didn't know that. Maybe that will explain an elf from the days of dragon rule saying "by the Black Archer!" more than 20,000 years before the Elven Court Slaughter.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:29:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that was kinda my point.

The only way that errant entry in that short story could be possible is that the 'Black Archer' is a recurring Elven deity. A mortal who arises to the position when needed. There may have been a first 'Back Archer' that was truly one of the Seldarine, but there had to be at least two to hold that title, to make everything work.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Marc
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618 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:30:36  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deneir, Siamorphe

Deep Duerra ascended in Underspires around -2000 DR

.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  05:32:24  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At least I'm not the only one who noticed that.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  07:02:51  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mask was apparently the offspring of an avatar of Shar manifested to give birth to her herald. His "mortal" name was Lessinor. This also appears in Shadowrealm, book 3 of the twilight trilogy. But his origin is semi-divine in the first place. He is as much mortal as the seven sisters are I suppose.
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  07:10:14  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If exarchs count then Rivalen Tanthul and Drasek Riven are godlings themselves. Also if Garguath, a displaced archdevil, is to be considered "mortal", then wouldn't Asmodeus count as well. My sentiment is that the Garguath example probably does not apply.

Is mystra 1.0's avatar Mryjala Darkeyes name the one the scribe named? I am not sure if that is her avatar or her mortal form.
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  11:53:07  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you count devils then Auril - fae, Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Ubtao - primordials, possibly Malar, Eldath, Lurue - fae, and Umberlee was a kraken.

.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33971 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  11:55:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

Is mystra 1.0's avatar Mryjala Darkeyes name the one the scribe named? I am not sure if that is her avatar or her mortal form.



We don't have a name for the mortal Mystra 1.0.

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Kilvan
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Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  13:36:56  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Tempus a mortal who defeated Garagos in fair combat (or was he a Primordial?)

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

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sfdragon
Great Reader

2272 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  14:11:09  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
was TEmpus mortal.... or was he a deity of another ancient pantheon.... dont know Kilvan.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  14:12:22  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

Is mystra 1.0's avatar Mryjala Darkeyes name the one the scribe named? I am not sure if that is her avatar or her mortal form.

I don't think that was actually her mortal name, but, rather, a guise Mystra 1.0 adopted for the sake of watching the youngling Elminster.

I seem to remember Ed touching on this briefly... in The Annotated Elminster.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1861 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  14:38:28  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Instead of looking for gods who were once mortal, I'd focus on establishing which one weren't.

In my opinion, that's a pretty short list.

Selune
Shar
Earthmother (Chauntea)*
Stormstar**
Mystryl
Grumbar
Akadi
Itishia
Kossuth

This is assuming that any being who can die counts as 'mortal', thus including fey and all sorts of 'monstrous' races. Whether to count Moander and Ghaunadaur as 'once mortal' is debatable. They may be ascended oozes or biological proccesses, but in that I doubt they were ever a particular individual micro-organism, I'm willing to give them a pass and call them more apotheosis of certain forces than ascended mortals.

*With any other nature gods either being aspects of her grown into independent personhood or lesser beings ascended to godhood with her sponsorship (and vesting a portion of her essence in them). This applies to Silvanus (I'd imagine he was once an Arahkor) and the rest of them.
**Original personification of fury, destruction and disasters. Any gods with such portfolios today, however, I'd rate as pretty likely to be mortals who were rewarded with some of it or, alternatively, seized some portfolios. I think Talos (under another name, for he's had many), for example, might well have been a jodunbrud chief in the Primordial wars, identified so strongly with the Stomstar in the eyes of his kindred and subsequently other mortals, that he began to accumulate its powers (I believe the original Stormstar, like all the original divine forces, was more motivation than consciousness).

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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  15:13:18  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Icelander

I am sorry but I have seen this entity Stormstar being thrown around a lot recently, but I just can't place which source he/it comes from. Could you please enlighten me =)?
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  15:28:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grumbar, Istishia, Akadi, and Kossuth are all primordials.

Ergo your list grows even shorter, Icelander.

Not exactly proof, but that definitely supports my claim that ALL deities are ascended mortals (like Mystara's Immortals).

I use 'gods' to describe anything higher then the mortal tier, so you could say some gods may not have been mortal (Archfey and Archfiends, Elemental Lords, Primordials, Elder Evils, etc), but deities should be.

Shar & Selune are special cases - I think they are either 'demoted' Primordials, or they deliver their divinity to mortal followers through secondary sources (Mask and Mystra, for example).

I don't know what a 'Stormstar' is, but I have some weird new theories about the Earthmother (I'm starting to think we've been looking at the wrong Faerunian God for her).

So yeah, gods could be from any uber-group, but deities all appear to be mortals who underwent an apotheosis (self-induced, spontaneous, or sponsored).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 15:29:30
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  16:48:27  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would argue that Primordials are "Gods" in their own right--merely of the elemental sort. They are separate, but of equal power and influence.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1861 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  17:25:15  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

@Icelander

I am sorry but I have seen this entity Stormstar being thrown around a lot recently, but I just can't place which source he/it comes from. Could you please enlighten me =)?


Well, Stormstar is an alias of modern Talos, Talos is listed as having been created by Shar in her battle with Selune, but I somehow remember a less convoluted source.

Can't place it now. Stormstar Requiem is a 4e thing, I think it comes from Brian R. James' or Gray Richardson's notes, from which I may have gotten Stormstar.

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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Mar 2012 :  17:52:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

I would argue that Primordials are "Gods" in their own right--merely of the elemental sort. They are separate, but of equal power and influence.
I said this as well.

But I'm starting to get the impression that primordials require a 'go between' - a deity that acts on their behalf. It would be like a business arrangement - the deity getting some of the worship (power) for themselves, and the Primordial getting the rest. Or, it could be something 'darker' - what if primordials are interested in mortal worship for the power alone, but no interest in maintaining a 'godly domain'? Perhaps the deal is that the deity gets the soul of the faithful after death, but must pass-on all the energy from that worship to the primordial while the faithful are still alive.

The only hole in that theory is that it would then be in the best interest of the deity to insure the faithful die quickly (then again... some gods have been known to stupidly sacrifice tons of their faithful...)

For instance, in the Horde material, it says Tuigan worship an 'air power' named Teylas, and the text goes on to say this is Akadi. However, not only is the power MALE and the name sounds more like Talos, but when you read Horselords it sounds precisely like Talos being described (Yamun Khahan was clearly a Chosen of Teylas). While this could just be an error (or not), and whoever wrote the Horde box got the two deities (with similar portfolios) mixed-up, I'd like to think it was something deeper.

Think about it - its almost like a 'marriage' between an ascended mortal (deity) and a primordial, and in nearly every case, its male/female - Mystra with Azuth & Shavras (and even Elminster), Shar with Mask, Grumbar and Earthmother, Istishia with Valkur (although Umberlee might argue with that), etc...

It almost seems that primordials sponsor some mortals to godhood, just to handle their day-to-day worship chores. They let their 'underlings' run things for them (like executives for a big corporation). And sometimes, those deities rebel and turn on their 'betters' (which could have been the reason behind the Godswar). In fact, I may be getting to close to the 'secret' of why the Weave requires a mortal consciousness to 'reboot' it.

EDIT:
I just realized, by my own logic, Jergal's probably a chick.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2012 17:58:43
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