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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2012 : 02:59:56
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What's your best guess toward exactly who and what the Lady of Pain is?
Do you think even Vecna knows?
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 03:15:39
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She's been described as a floating giantess, serene and terrible. Actually, her size might not even be consistent from sighting to sighting. And I don't think that's the only inconsistent aspect of her make-up either.
Basically, her Serenity the Lady of Pain is beyond such things as identity -- just as she is beyond such temporal concepts as past, present, future, and definite powers. She's more of an idea than a person. It's just that in the Outer Planes, ideas are the number one cause of death. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 03:52:41
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you want to know who the lady of pain really is??
thelady of pain is the lady of pain. whatever is under the mask of pain is the mask. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 03:58:44
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I don't know, and I really don't -want- to know.
That said, she might be the personification of all of the Pain in the multiverse. She might be a redeemed Abyssal lord, she might be an overgod, she might be something older than the multiverse itself, she might be an illusion created by the dabus, or she might be three ratatosks in a robe and a mask. Either way, it doesn't really matter, the Lady of Pain simply is, the only constant in Sigil; the one you might never see and the one you hope you never cross. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 06:12:22
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I always saw the Lady of Pain as the very essence of FORCED Neutrality.
Regardless of where she came from, the center of the center of everything is HER domain... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 06:31:27
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One of the last 2e adventures to come out before 3e D&D (I think it was Die, Vecna, Die!) seemed to hint that the Lady of Pain was an overgod, on par with Ao and that strange Serpent who has a perverse fondness for Vecna. I think the book called them collectively the Ancient Brethren.
But then again, nothing is known for certain.
What is certain is that she killed Aoskar, god of portals, trapped hundreds if not thousands of beings within mystical mazes of her own design, and warded her city from all other gods. This indicates that she has at least deity-level power, while not really confirming if she is a diety or not, since anyone offering a prayer to her would be ripped to bloody rags in the next instant.
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"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 15:35:13
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Personally, I spin her as THE primordial of balance - she sits at the center of the universe maintaining it. She is neither good nor evil, lawful or chaotic... she just IS.
Just how I picture her - nothing canon, of course. How she got her title I don't know (makes her sound like Loviatar).
EDIT: If we take that tenuous comparison a step further, she may be Loviatar's (and Kipu-tytto's) mommy, making her Touni. Ergo, if she is a primordial (which makes the most sense IMHO), then touni was probably the primordial of entropy personified, and entropy does maintain balance between creation and obliteration. I know... a stretch... you wanted theories. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 May 2012 15:48:54 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 15:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
One of the last 2e adventures to come out before 3e D&D (I think it was Die, Vecna, Die!) seemed to hint that the Lady of Pain was an overgod, on par with Ao and that strange Serpent who has a perverse fondness for Vecna. I think the book called them collectively the Ancient Brethren.
But then again, nothing is known for certain.
What is certain is that she killed Aoskar, god of portals, trapped hundreds if not thousands of beings within mystical mazes of her own design, and warded her city from all other gods. This indicates that she has at least deity-level power, while not really confirming if she is a diety or not, since anyone offering a prayer to her would be ripped to bloody rags in the next instant.
Interesting....and I definitely would like to know what she is. If your story is correct she probable assumed Aoskars mantle...it looks like a will have to consult with VECNA, but there will be a price to pay.... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 15:57:10
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Yeah, that part makes her (and the Ancient Brethren) seem a lot like my concept of High Ordials - the sentience of basic universal concepts.
Other Ordials came after (in my cosmology) - The Mediordials (called Overgods), and the 'low' (Prime)Ordials. All represent certain concepts, including energy and elemental types, etc.
Every time a concept is born, its opposite is also born, so when the very first concepts came into being (when the multiverse itself was formed), they gave birth to balance. This would be where I imagine the LOP to be. She herself would then need an opposite, and that would be something akin to the Far Realms - that which exists beyond the universe. This being would be good AND evil, chaos AND order, combined in ever-shifting unequal quantities. I call it Cthon, but another name for it would be Cthulhu (actually that entire mythos). In D&D/FR I suppose The Eldest would be the closest thing the LOP would have as an opposite (going by this line of reasoning). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 May 2012 16:02:28 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 23:18:36
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If steel could scream, then there would be no blacksmiths.
If glass could groan, then there would be no glass smiths, no blowers, no setters.
If silver could shout, or thresh about, then not a silver smith would stand across the land.
Yes, but it she merely the lady of pain, the representation of all things that involve the concept. Is she something that is forced to endure it as much as she gives it, does she understand the use of pain as a measure of good?
This only took me about five seconds, especially since I’m in it all the time, it’s a constent companion. Pain is the tool that makes us stronger, if we let it, it is the forge of fate. Come then by all the power that be, come forge me.
Wait! I have it!
Oh Bevernashada Kevernaut, Here it is.
Ao you must understand is not the first God, as there is one higher than he, it is not so much a being, but a personification, and Ao is both his servent, and his second son. His first children, born, by the creation of the verse, at the moment of it’s creation, were Lath’al, Xengena, and Krushvas. These three beings are only in part in the verse, and part of the verse, as was intended for them in the act of creation. Now, Lath’al, was empathy and the understanding of emotion, as well as those things related there to. Xengena, was the element most commonly associated with pain, both for good and ill, as well as those things related there to. Krushvas was reasoned emotion, for despite what others often think, the two are not antipathetical to one another. It was the split to the last brother, the great devorce between reason and emotion that has caused the great change. No pain, or the lady of pain endures it and gives it, but she has lost her purpose.
(Yes, none of this is canon, it’s all a flight of my imagination)
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 03:44:56
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I read a book once, called The Warhound and the World's Pain (by Michael Moorcock).
In it, the Devil (Asmodeus to us) asks a talented mercenary to "seek out the cure for the Word's Pain", and this turns out to be the 'Holy Grail' (which is a metaphor).
What I find interesting here is that in the novel, the Devil was seeking absolution, and was trying to return to his father's 'good graces' (whether this works or not is left rather ambiguous). Apparently, he did his job all too well, and was now making amends.
The fact that Asmodeus is somehow related to The Lady of Pain is very intriguing - I need to take another look at that adventure. It almost seems to me that she is not only the personification of pain itself (and thus, a primordial), but she is the embodiment of the World's Pain - that she may have been born out of the Godswar in the time before time, when the firmamnet was sundered and a multiverse created. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 May 2012 03:46:16 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 07:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The fact that Asmodeus is somehow related to The Lady of Pain is very intriguing - I need to take another look at that adventure. It almost seems to me that she is not only the personification of pain itself (and thus, a primordial), but she is the embodiment of the World's Pain - that she may have been born out of the Godswar in the time before time, when the firmamnet was sundered and a multiverse created.
DVD is something of a thorn in the side of canon, since the planar ramifications it describes at its end don't entirely mirror those that happened between 2e and 3e, and its attempt to describe The Lady rather seriously goes against the intent of the setting prior to that point. It's interesting but flawed IMO, and I'd back off from answering that mystery in any overt way if it was up to me.
There's also another problem. The Serpent was never intended to be a creature or entity or overgod or what have you. The original intent (as per Monte Cook) was Vecna describing magic as a living thing he personified as The Serpent. When The Serpent spoke to him however, it was Vecna's own madness, and not an actual entity known as the Serpent. That got lost in DVD (and a reference in the 3e ELH)when Bruce Cordell used it as an actual entity.
The connection of Asmodeus herein is also a later conflation of Asmodeus's rumored true form as a giant snake in Nessus first described in 2e's Guide to Hell, and later given as a rumor in the 3e MotP. People have read into that that Asmodeus is the Serpent, though there's no connection to link the two concepts. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 12 May 2012 07:13:40 |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 07:39:13
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If i may add my humble opinions to the topic. I have actually been looking into this alot and have come to some conclusions on my own from all the planescape material i have read as well as some 1st edition stuff as well. I think what the lady of pain is sorta a two fold situation dealing with both ingame story and out of game stuff put in planescape as a nod to 1st edition lore. so to get to the point I think the lady of pain is one of the last immortals from the immortal book set from 1st edition along with the serpent. My reasoning for this are a couple of items ive read about in planescape and other books one being the reference to both of them being ancient brethern and the description of what the ancient brethern are. Another clue is the Ulgurshek orifice in the demonweb pits being known as a draeden which is a creature said to be from the dawn of time and also happens to be a creature that was introduced in the book of immortals as something so powerful and old even they feared them. And the last one that i know of so far is orcus when he was slain by kiaransalee, he came back as tenebrous and used the last word to slay a couple of gods one of that i know of was in his own domain which would state that orcus would have to be very powerful to do so, but another fact about ocrus is in the book of immortals orcus was a immortal of entropy and tenebrous was his superior another immortal of entropy. So how all of this connects lore wise like the transition from the immortal stuff to the use of deities in 2nd edition i dont know as i dont own most of the 1st edition books or alot of the early 2nd edition ones either. It could be just random bits of lore that the varies designers put in planescape and some of the later 2nd editon books to give a sorta of nod to alot of the 1st edition stuff like the immortal box set and has no real meaning or use other than that.
p.s. i havent had a chance to get ahold of the matieral for it to research it but i also suspect the barnolothes might also fall into this category. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 09:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by kysus
If i may add my humble opinions to the topic. I have actually been looking into this alot and have come to some conclusions on my own from all the planescape material i have read as well as some 1st edition stuff as well. I think what the lady of pain is sorta a two fold situation dealing with both ingame story and out of game stuff put in planescape as a nod to 1st edition lore. so to get to the point I think the lady of pain is one of the last immortals from the immortal book set from 1st edition along with the serpent. My reasoning for this are a couple of items ive read about in planescape and other books one being the reference to both of them being ancient brethern and the description of what the ancient brethern are. Another clue is the Ulgurshek orifice in the demonweb pits being known as a draeden which is a creature said to be from the dawn of time and also happens to be a creature that was introduced in the book of immortals as something so powerful and old even they feared them. And the last one that i know of so far is orcus when he was slain by kiaransalee, he came back as tenebrous and used the last word to slay a couple of gods one of that i know of was in his own domain which would state that orcus would have to be very powerful to do so, but another fact about ocrus is in the book of immortals orcus was a immortal of entropy and tenebrous was his superior another immortal of entropy. So how all of this connects lore wise like the transition from the immortal stuff to the use of deities in 2nd edition i dont know as i dont own most of the 1st edition books or alot of the early 2nd edition ones either. It could be just random bits of lore that the varies designers put in planescape and some of the later 2nd editon books to give a sorta of nod to alot of the 1st edition stuff like the immortal box set and has no real meaning or use other than that.
p.s. i havent had a chance to get ahold of the matieral for it to research it but i also suspect the barnolothes might also fall into this category.
The draeden reference is an odd one, since either it's just a fun one-off nod to the basic/etc D&D game of the period (rather than the AD&D - 1e/2e/3e cosmology), (which otherwise are wholly different games with no implied or given continuity) or it's an actual attempt to link them in some capacity.
Oddly enough, I'm not completely against that sort of cross-universe pollination, and there's plenty of precident within Planescape itself to allow for it without compromising its own continuity and cosmological structure. But they are different games and weren't originally intended to have any connection, they just used some of the same names like orcus, demogorgon, etc. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Corwyn the Errant
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 09:44:57
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...or maybe she's a mouse in a large mechanical suit. :)
I think she works best as an enigma, a question without an answer. The possibilities are too fun to speculate on: a defeated diety who sought refuge in the last place her enemies cannot reach her? The Last God from the multiverse before this one...or the First of the next? A figment of the imagination of the populace of Sigil given substance...or mayhap the sole dream of a asylum inmate who is lost to the depths of madness?
Or maybe, just maybe, a certain lab mouse finally realized his dream... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 16:33:23
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The Draeden thing is interesting - I have to look into that (for my own stuff).
I agree the LoP should never be clearly defined. I look at any information given about her to be inaccurate 3rd-person reporting; in other words, it could all be a lie... or not.
I like the idea Vecna was going mad, but at his level of power, and with some of the things he has done (alter reality), doesn't that mean the serpent could have been a figment of his imagination, and now is not? That would cover the lore glitches.
Personally, I spin Asmodeus as just one avatar of Ahriman, and it is Ahriman that should be 'the serpent' - he is the darkness that dwells within all of us (just my own take). At those levels of power, an Avatar of such a being could possibly be greater then a god or primordial, and is for the most part self-aware (so Asmodeus is both a separate entity, and yet still part of something else... like all scaley gods).
I also consider the Planescape setting as a very basic description of the Planer structure - one that is not entirely accurate as we move from sphere to sphere. Mortal (and perhaps immortal) perception defines how things in the outer planes are structured, which is why the same gods (and other cosmic beings) have different attributes in different parts of the multiverse. Michael Moorcock used this throughout all of his many different series - the power-level, appearance, and even personality of gods (like Arioch, the Knight of Swords) changes from world to world. On some worlds, some gods do not even exist, and most worlds have deities unknown elsewhere... which is a LOT like our D&D cosmology.
This could be why deities have to 'walk on eggs' when dealing with the mortal Realms - they may be precisely the way they are described in PS when in the Great Ring, but once they enter a mortal sphere they are governed by the rules therein (so if those mortals believe they can kill gods, they can).
@Shemmy - I am sure you are aware that the Asmodeus/Serpent thing was covered (but not clearly defined) in the final issue of The Dragon magazine. Not that it was answered, but the connection was once-again made. I sort of like thinking of magic itself as a two-headed Ouroboros (which fits the story told in Guide to Hell).
Also, was there any Mystara connections made in Ravenloft? I know they brought in Athas (which PS and SJ avoided), but I don't recall any Mystara material used there. Regardless, much Mystara stuff got ported into FR, so I assume some sort of (primordial?) connection (just my take, once again).
As for the Lady of Pain - she's right up there with Elder Evils and other proto-cosmic entities (which I lump together as Shadvari). She should never be defined, because the rules of our universe cannot define her - she exists outside of those rules. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 May 2012 16:34:48 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 17:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Shemmy - I am sure you are aware that the Asmodeus/Serpent thing was covered (but not clearly defined) in the final issue of The Dragon magazine. Not that it was answered, but the connection was once-again made. I sort of like thinking of magic itself as a two-headed Ouroboros (which fits the story told in Guide to Hell).
I was in that issue actually, though shame on me that reference slipped me when I wrote what I did earlier. They did leave it hazy, which is for the best since it allows you the option of its all hooey or its actually true.
quote:
Also, was there any Mystara connections made in Ravenloft? I know they brought in Athas (which PS and SJ avoided), but I don't recall any Mystara material used there. Regardless, much Mystara stuff got ported into FR, so I assume some sort of (primordial?) connection (just my take, once again).
PS actually didn't avoid Athas. Factol Malin of the Mercykillers was actually born on Athas and IIRC after his death, Factol Nilesia dumped his remains back on Dark Sun. Also, there was a small Athasian enclave in Sigil (though how they escaped wasn't detailed).
Had my head into so much Pathfinder stuff lately, I have to think about PS stuff now, it's not rattling off as quickly. Man do I miss that setting. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 12 May 2012 17:36:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 23:19:28
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| I perceive the Lady of Pain as a sort of unique deity ... her "outer planar" domain is Sigil, the "center" and crossroads of all belief in the D&D cosmos, I see her nature as being alternately compassionate and cruel, tyrannical and fickle, varying almost moment to moment, it's as if her behaviour indicates the relative motions of all the other planes which constantly orbit in Sigil's proximity. I personally suspect she's not even conscious in any way we would understand; she basically doesn't "exist" as an individual and permeates Sigil, being manifest within it only as things need to be subtly persuaded or forcefully pounded into a more "balanced" forms. She usurped her divine station from Aoskar, along with his believers, the dabus - she might have once been some kind of little goddess, redeemed fiend, condemned celestial, pure fabrication of the mentally bizarre dabus, even a stray once-mortal bladeling - but what matters is only what she is, not what she was, and what she is can only be described as the watchdog and personification of Sigil. Call her a living ward or programmed illusion with the power of a half-insane goddess and you wouldn't be far wrong. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 01:19:09
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Spartacus
or Batman |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 11:01:26
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My own theory is that The Lady of Pain is simply an overgod. She fits the definition. She is strongly associated with a locality that is (kind of) like a crystal sphere (albeit a tiny one in the shape of a partially-open torus. And she may well be the creator of Sigil. She does not grant spells. She's pretty inscrutable.
Ultimately, I agree that she works best as a mystery or a plot device to keep other gods from taking over the nexus to all other planes. However if you need a mechanic to describe her, then overgod fits best in my opinion. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 20:06:00
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| I see the LOP as more of some form of primordial on par with an overgod, in that the LoP doesn't tolerate any worship. The overgods that we've seen so far have not demonstrably been impacted by worship, whereas in one of the few Planescape novels reflected the Lady's inner monologue paraphrased as "If I am worshipped, then I am a god." This is incompatible with her ban of deities from Sigil. |
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IlexGarodan
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 21:07:56
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| I know exactly who the Lady of Pain is! She's really a-- *Suddenly gets flayed* |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 02:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My own theory is that The Lady of Pain is simply an overgod. She fits the definition. She is strongly associated with a locality that is (kind of) like a crystal sphere (albeit a tiny one in the shape of a partially-open torus. And she may well be the creator of Sigil. She does not grant spells. She's pretty inscrutable.
Ultimately, I agree that she works best as a mystery or a plot device to keep other gods from taking over the nexus to all other planes. However if you need a mechanic to describe her, then overgod fits best in my opinion.
Interesting but if she is an indeed an OVERGOD wouldn't the deities and fiends that have tried to invade Sigil have recognized that she was a superior being?
I cant see any "normal" deity trying to bum rush AO with brute force. Yet from what I recall from the planescape source books, attempted incursions into Sigil have occurred multiple times.
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 03:32:10
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You're all wrong. The Lady is in fact six giant squirrels with a headdress, robe and a ring of levitation and illusions.
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"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 06:49:41
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An equally valid question would be who is/was Aoskar, and what were his origins? Did he create Sigil or just shape and (re)locate it as the city of planar portals? Sigil may have once been little more than a demi-plane sort of place, perhaps home to the Dabus, only "recently" shifted from elsewhere in the Outlands and anchored atop the infinitely tall Spire. Technically, Sigil might be viewed as a second and deeper "layer" of the Outlands ... and that can suggest the possibility that any number of other layers could also exist anywhere within and beyond the Outlands.
I personally suspect Aoskar was originally a power from a now-fallen Rilmani pantheon, although my reasoning is too lengthy and complicated for this scroll.
I truly hope future D&D products don't make any claim that the Lady of Pain is some sort of aspect of Lolth, or a lost Seldarine or somebody's meddling Chosen. Please leave Planescape unsullied by such parochial soap opera notions! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 May 2012 06:57:44 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 08:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An equally valid question would be who is/was Aoskar, and what were his origins? Did he create Sigil or just shape and (re)locate it as the city of planar portals? Sigil may have once been little more than a demi-plane sort of place, perhaps home to the Dabus, only "recently" shifted from elsewhere in the Outlands and anchored atop the infinitely tall Spire.
Aoskar was never described in tons of detail, but he was mentioned as a god who attempted to intrude upon and usurp the Lady's power, rather than being someone who reshaped the city/its role and status in the cosmos/etc.
Also, the oldest references to Sigil talk about the city and the Lady, but make no mention of Aoskar. If anything, the most ancient references to Sigil make it seem an even more spectacular place than its current status ("then bejeweled Sigil"). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 03:17:04
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I had posted a theory about Aoskar in another thread back in 2008, and I think it might be worth reposting here.
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I think it possible that the name "Imaskar" derives from Aoskar's name. Im-Aoskar could be the genitive form, or a patronymic, or a clan-name based on Aoskar as the founder. Similar to the Scottish name "O'Leary". Over time, "Im-Aoskar" elided into "Imaskar", as it is pronounced today.
While the Imaskari were thought to be godless, I would be surprised if none of them ever considered becoming gods. It seems like a natural progression for Aoskar, having mastered portal magic, risen to the leadership of his people, and presumably gained class levels above 20+, to want to explore divine ascension.
Of course, once he ascended, Aoskar would still be hard-pressed to get the godless Imaskari to actually revere him as a deity. They might have been impressed by his ascension but were not the type to then fall to their knees in worship of him. The Imaskari thought themselves peers of gods, not followers of them. Aoskar's curiosity, love of planewalking, and need to attract followers would have driven him to leave his people behind to wander the planes and nurture a worshiper base.
Rip Van Wormer wrote a very cool story about how the Imaskari may have actually created Sigil (sort of). It is an amazing little piece. Thinking on it, I could imagine Aoskar as Sigil's master architect, or perhaps the one who crafted all of Sigil's portals. It might explain why Aoskar's presence was tolerated for so long by the Lady of Pain.
Here is the link to Rip's story: How the Imaskari Created Sigil, by Rip Van Wormer Check it out! It's worth a read. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 05:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I had posted a theory about Aoskar in another thread back in 2008, and I think it might be worth reposting here.
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I think it possible that the name "Imaskar" derives from Aoskar's name. Im-Aoskar could be the genitive form, or a patronymic, or a clan-name based on Aoskar as the founder. Similar to the Scottish name "O'Leary". Over time, "Im-Aoskar" elided into "Imaskar", as it is pronounced today.
While the Imaskari were thought to be godless, I would be surprised if none of them ever considered becoming gods. It seems like a natural progression for Aoskar, having mastered portal magic, risen to the leadership of his people, and presumably gained class levels above 20+, to want to explore divine ascension.
Of course, once he ascended, Aoskar would still be hard-pressed to get the godless Imaskari to actually revere him as a deity. They might have been impressed by his ascension but were not the type to then fall to their knees in worship of him. The Imaskari thought themselves peers of gods, not followers of them. Aoskar's curiosity, love of planewalking, and need to attract followers would have driven him to leave his people behind to wander the planes and nurture a worshiper base.
Rip Van Wormer wrote a very cool story about how the Imaskari may have actually created Sigil (sort of). It is an amazing little piece. Thinking on it, I could imagine Aoskar as Sigil's master architect, or perhaps the one who crafted all of Sigil's portals. It might explain why Aoskar's presence was tolerated for so long by the Lady of Pain.
Here is the link to Rip's story: How the Imaskari Created Sigil, by Rip Van Wormer Check it out! It's worth a read.
Good stuff, Vecna apparently came close to overtaking sigil..- |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 06:30:05
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| Where can I learn more of "then bejeweled Sigil"? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 06:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Where can I learn more of "then bejeweled Sigil"?
That's about it, it's just a short reference to the City of Doors. Don't recall it off the top of my head however, will find it later tonight. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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The Lady of Pain's Identity
