| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 02:59:56
What's your best guess toward exactly who and what the Lady of Pain is?
Do you think even Vecna knows? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 20:20:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if Sigil was, at some point in the very, very distant past, a prison for some particularly nasty entities? That could explain it being called the Cage, and being physically inaccessible. The Lady of Pain could have been the head (or only) jailer; her mazes could be a power she used to that end.
And all the portals could have originally been just one-way -- it was like an interdimensional Alcatraz, perhaps.
Obviously, at some point, the incarcerated inhabitants were no longer around, so the Lady no longer needed to be a jailer. She then started letting people come and go as they wished, and Sigil became the city we know today.
Intriguing...
Now I'm thinking that Sigil was perhaps the proto-hell mentioned in Tyrants of the Nine Hells - the devils (fallen angels then) lived in the 'godsland' with them, but were forced out to build their hells elsewhere, to punish the wicked.
But what about where they used to live, in the upper planes? Could Sigil be the 'old neighborhood' for those fallen angels? The 'prison' the gods could not bear looking at? |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:22:24
Lady of Pain ehh... Well I'll give her half a yeah! 
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 04:39:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if Sigil was, at some point in the very, very distant past, a prison for some particularly nasty entities? That could explain it being called the Cage, and being physically inaccessible. The Lady of Pain could have been the head (or only) jailer; her mazes could be a power she used to that end.
One of my many pre-existing theories on the origin of "the Cage," ties to the whole conception I have for the Lady's Pain.
Whether it's because she was involved in the death of Aoskar, or due to some crime so heinous that it has been wiped entirely from the history of the multiverse... the Cage exists as a "locked chain" around her neck that she herself has placed there.
But the twist is, it's a chain for which she already has the key. And that's the secret of the Lady's Pain. She can end her own imprisonment and her unending Pain, if only she can accept the consequences of her crime and what it has done to the rest of All Reality. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 04:25:10
It would be really cool if Sigil WERE Tharizdun...imprisoned...and the Lady of Pain was in Pain to keep him in check. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 03:19:21
What if Sigil was, at some point in the very, very distant past, a prison for some particularly nasty entities? That could explain it being called the Cage, and being physically inaccessible. The Lady of Pain could have been the head (or only) jailer; her mazes could be a power she used to that end.
And all the portals could have originally been just one-way -- it was like an interdimensional Alcatraz, perhaps.
Obviously, at some point, the incarcerated inhabitants were no longer around, so the Lady no longer needed to be a jailer. She then started letting people come and go as they wished, and Sigil became the city we know today. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 01:38:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Whether the Lady is IN pain, from Ao's perspective, is neither relevant nor even established as more than wordplay and conjecture.
I have a long-established speculative theory about this. And it involves the head blades that Her Serenity has in her head-dress. It's just one of the physical symbols of the Lady's Pain.
But I need to dust off my notes, first. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:51:23
True enough - Sigil may be called 'The Cage' because it is her prison.
On the other hand, what if Sigil = 'pain' - then her title would simply mean Lady of Sigil. In that case, we would have to wonder about the nature of Sigil instead (and I'd fall back on my, Rip's, or Gray's theories in that case). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:43:29
Whether the Lady is IN pain, from Ao's perspective, is neither relevant nor even established as more than wordplay and conjecture. The Lady's power and station in Sigil are unrelated to the relative power and stations of Ao, Aboleths, Primordials, or McDonalds anywhere outside Sigil. I don't accept the assertion that she is able to leave Sigil and/or enter Ao's domain, simply because no canon record of any such event exists, nothing even remotely like it after millennia and aeons worth of planar lore ... unless you could cite actual examples? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:28:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
She doesn't have to be 'above' Ao - his job is to administer them, whereas her job could be to stop them from doing something (like entering Sigil and causing an imbalance).
Ao treated deities like children that needed to be punished - that sounds an awful like the LoP, IMO.
The Lady of Pain could enter Ao's crystal sphere should she want or need to, or project an iota of her being. Ao allowed the aboleths and the primordials to enter his domain, why wouldn't he do the same to the Lady IN Pain?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But more importantly, I want to know who does her hair.
Asmodeus. He was a hair stylist before he rose to become an archdevil. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:21:11
I don't see any correlation between Ao and the Lady. Both (at least in theory) hold absolute power in their domains. Neither seems to ever be permitted to leave their domain nor enter the other's domain. They basically have no interaction and no need to interact at all. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:02:15
She doesn't have to be 'above' Ao - his job is to administer them, whereas her job could be to stop them from doing something (like entering Sigil and causing an imbalance).
Ao treated deities like children that needed to be punished - that sounds an awful like the LoP, IMO.
But more importantly, I want to know who does her hair. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 14:12:33
I had actually thought she was MORE than Ao or other such beings. She doesn't even administer other gods after all...she simply "IS" and all that. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 05:15:57
Interesting.
She would would D&D's Infinity (from Marvel) to Ao's Eternity.
As Infinity, she would feel the universe's birth, illness, and death - this is why her life is pain personified. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 19:23:51
Oh, I don't know; I don't think it has spread too far.
Perhaps the Lady of Pain is IN PAIN because of the cancer. Perhaps she is the personification of this reality made manifest. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 16:21:51
Edition/system doesn't really matter here...
What I meant was that the Abyss itself is the cancer. What 'cells' its composed of - and its origins - don't really matter so much (there can be a thousand 'truths', and they could all be wrong... or all be right).
This follows upon the material presented in the 3e fiend books - that the legions of hell are actually fallen angels (originally), who were specialized in fighting this 'cancer'. They would, of course, be based nearby (in the lower planes).
Since cancer spreads (infects other cells/parts of the body), this is how those first fallen angels became contaminated. This is why the hordes of the Abyss are limitless - they replenish their numbers by contact; you can't destroy them, because you just add to their numbers in the long run.
The initial outbreak was in the outer planes, in the form of the Abyss, but now there are localized 'tumors' spreading throughout the body of the universe (like Khyber in EB).
The reason why I find this line of reasoning so interesting is that you could continue with the analogy - that sometimes 'goodly' beings will decide that places simply aren't worth saving, and 'cut' them from the main body of the universe - usually by exiling entire Realms (which could explain the hells, but also help to explain why certain Crystal Spheres are 'cut-off' from the greater D&D cosmology).
I had always thought that if anyone would side with the devils against the demons it would be the chaotic good, but now I think lawful good would want to protect their 'fallen brethren' for the sake of the greater universe (and the war against the 'Chaos Cancer'), and the chaotic good beings would want to destroy both the demons and the devils.
The thread seems to have morphed into a different discussion altogether - my apologies to the OP and mods.  |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 18:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhhhhhh.... 
So The Abyss is actually a cancer?
The baern, not the 4e obyriths. It's going to be pretty rare that I refer to any of the 4e cosmology. Though you could use the idea in that capacity too if you wanted. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:43:45
Ahhhhhhh....
So The Abyss is actually a cancer? |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:37:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why couldn't the baernaloth have created the Obyriths IN that other multiverse? That should reconcile both pieces of lore.
I like the idea that demons in-general have their roots in something that existed before the current multiverse - it gives them more of a Cthulhuesque vibe (which I normally don't care for... but it works for demons).
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
It also means that the Shadvari mentioned in the FR creation myth could be baernaloths. 
So, if Illithids (and certain other aberrations) existed in some other proto-universe, they may have been the 'mortals' to the baernaloth/shadvari 'demons'. These may have been the closest thing to gods and demons that existed in the antideluvian, Lovecraftian universe. Not so much evil, as they are primal (the primevals?)
Not quite the same as from a previous multiverse, but the notion of something coming from outside of a given cosmos and thus existing beyond/outside of time relative to it is a fun concept to toy with. I've toyed with the vague notion in some fiction of mine where you might read the baernaloth not as the creators of anything so much as a virus that infects entire multiverses.
They arrive from somewhere outside, injected into the virgin flesh of a newborn cosmos and burrow deep, worming into the heart of a cell and incorporating themselves like a retrovirus and forever after tainting that creation with the concept of Evil, where it might never have existed before. They infect, consume, kill, and spread once more; a plague across realities, born on the ethereal winds of probability and formlessness. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:25:45
So, could this possibly have been a time-invasion, rather then a spatial one?
Could the Obyriths have been from the 'time before time' (or is that the Age before ages?), and found a way to escape their own doom/whatever by creating an artifact that siphons-off their own universe and recreates it in the next?
Hmmmmm... that scenario sounds a lot like what happened with Tintageer/Evermeet (if the story is true) - that it was a self-fulfilling prophesy. What if the Obyriths foresaw (time being meaningless to them) the destruction of their universe, and they created the shard to protect a portion of it, but didn't realize it was the shard itself that would lead to the collapse of their universe (storing vast amounts of it and sending it into the future/another universe)?
And this is what happens when you use magic to meddle with time - you create a paradox-loop which rights itself by causing its own creation. Its probably what happened with the Dawn Cataclysm as well (something along the lines of the Spell that Doctor Strange cast to remove the events of X-Men 190-191 - he wound-up diverting something from an alternate timeline into his own).
In other words, if you mess with time, you will most-likely create a far worse situation for yourself. Whatever Lathander was trying to do, I really doubt he meant to split Tyche in half. That was merely something that needed to BE, in order for something else to have been changed (which probably had to do with Aumanator).
EDIT: I prefer Tharizdun as a Primordial rather then a deity - I think it works better that way. Note, I consider both to be 'gods' (along with many other beings not normally associated with that, like archfiends).
EDIT: I suppose that makes Baernaloths akin to primordials (the first beings in the new universe), and Obyriths would be something along the lines of a proto-ordial. So that would mean the term 'Shadvari' could be applied to any proto-ordial (that which existed before the universe itself).
So FR/D&D has many 'Galacti', rather then a single, monolithic Galactus. Kinda like mini-Galactus's, but without the silly hat.
 ...... What if Obyriths could form together and create a single entity? That could be Galactus!
Obyrithicus... devourer of worlds... I like it!  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 04:22:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
Don't we have that already?
Granted, I'm not as "up" on my 4e core D&D fiction as I probably should be at this point, but my impression of the whole "Chained God" scenario, was that, at least for the 4e D&D setting, Tharizdun was in fact a great and powerfully destructive being left over from the end of the previous universe -- and attempting to re-establish himself in the current D&D-verse.
Nope, Tharizdun was actually a "Modern" God that found an Obyrith artifact that had been sent into his reality. He used the Artifact to Create the Abyss, which allowed the Obyriths to enter his own dimension. The other Gods, in their horror, chained Tharizdun to prevent him from using the power he had gained from the Obyriths.
His use of the Shard (can't recall what it is called) is both what made him truly evil and desire to destroy all...and the Shard allowed the Obyriths to invade. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 03:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
Don't we have that already?
Granted, I'm not as "up" on my 4e core D&D fiction as I probably should be at this point, but my impression of the whole "Chained God" scenario, was that, at least for the 4e D&D setting, Tharizdun was in fact a great and powerfully destructive being left over from the end of the previous universe -- and attempting to re-establish himself in the current D&D-verse. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:03:50
Could some deities (whatever alignment) past and present, be her own aspects? It's not unheard of that a greater entity takes some divided portions of its "self" and spreads to whatever place it desires to expand its reaches... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 14:43:33
Why couldn't the baernaloth have created the Obyriths IN that other multiverse? That should reconcile both pieces of lore.
I like the idea that demons in-general have their roots in something that existed before the current multiverse - it gives them more of a Cthulhuesque vibe (which I normally don't care for... but it works for demons).
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
It also means that the Shadvari mentioned in the FR creation myth could be baernaloths.
So, if Illithids (and certain other aberrations) existed in some other proto-universe, they may have been the 'mortals' to the baernaloth/shadvari 'demons'. These may have been the closest thing to gods and demons that existed in the antideluvian, Lovecraftian universe. Not so much evil, as they are primal (the primevals?) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 08:36:01
quote:
The Sage
I'm hoping some element of the Obyriths alternate-multiverse origins is retained in the 5e cosmology. It's a cool idea that really needs more time on the spotlight of development.
I think this is a leftover from 3E. Specifically, inserting the Far Realms onto (or beyond) the map of the planes. A brilliant move, the ultimate expression of "Here Be Dragons", and a great way to tacitly acknowledge all those Cthulhu creatures and RPGs without violating anyone else's copyrights.
The Far Realms is a precedent from which anything could originate, it might be a frontier dimension on the fringe of the universe, or merely a sort of interfacing liaison-dimension between the D&D universe and any other (or others). More to the point, the existence of an "impossible" place where "other" things can come from means the possible (perhaps probable) existence of any number of other "impossible" things. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:27:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I like it. Except the bit on Mystryl, as it contradicts prior lore. Mystryl never had a Chosen. It was Midnight-Mystra who first had one.
Mystra had Chosen before Midnight was born mate.
Of course, as even Elminster and Khelben predated Midnight. No, that's not what I meant earlier...I was supposed to delete Midnight.
I was only comparing Mystryl and Mystra... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:11:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I like it. Except the bit on Mystryl, as it contradicts prior lore. Mystryl never had a Chosen. It was Midnight-Mystra who first had one.
Mystra had Chosen before Midnight was born mate. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 02:45:54
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I like it. Except the bit on Mystryl, as it contradicts prior lore. Mystryl never had a Chosen. It was Mystra who first had one. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 02:32:13
My brothers, I have recently convened with the great Vecna himself.
The cost was great and I do not expect to see the sun rise again.
My fellow posters The Lady of Pain is Kin to THE PALE NIGHT she is....ARGHR AHEEE....!!
 |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 01:43:02
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
On a more serious note, I don't know much about the Lady of Pain; but I DO know that the Obyriths are from another Multiverse...
In 4e's cosmology they are, though that wasn't the case originally in 3.x when they were the creations of the baernaloth. I suppose it remains to be seen what cosmology (and continuity) will appear in 5e.
I'm hoping some element of the Obyriths alternate-multiverse origins is retained in the 5e cosmology. It's a cool idea that really needs more time on the spotlight of development. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 00:19:22
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
On a more serious note, I don't know much about the Lady of Pain; but I DO know that the Obyriths are from another Multiverse...
In 4e's cosmology they are, though that wasn't the case originally in 3.x when they were the creations of the baernaloth. I suppose it remains to be seen what cosmology (and continuity) will appear in 5e.
True...BUT:
"Those nasty Baernaloth's were fecund liars...they just spread that rumor to try and convince everyone they were the "supreme" evil."
At least that is how the Sage Lymtar of Akanax spins HIS knowledge.
For me, I can spin information given any way I want to...I understand the need for a Canon explanation of some things; but the outer planes are easy for me. |
