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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
 Posted - 17 May 2012 : 10:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Where can I learn more of "then bejeweled Sigil"?
It's in 'A Guide to the Astral Plane', mentioned in passing in a legend talking about the height of the Illithid's plane-spanning empire.
Admittedly, there are older mentions of Sigil, but they're in the Hellbound chronology of the Blood War, and are relative dates rather than specific. But it was there already for the fiends to blunder upon around the time that mortal life was just crawling out of the muck on the Prime Material and littering souls upon the lower planes shortly afterwards. Personally I assume it was there from the start, or predates the start. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 16:58:53
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I had linked my own ideas to Rip's story as well, but I had it where Aoskar was a much older deity - one the Mujhari (proto-Imaskari) discovered in an ancient, half-buried temple-city in the Raurin. They called it Aoskar, because they did not know the deity's original name. Ao's Kar simple means "child of God".
The basic premise is that the 'ancient city' is/was Sigil, which is like an artifact, and appears in other spheres as well... to be discovered all over again. This is how Sigil evolves - a piece of it is always reaching into other planes and tempting new races to add to it.
I also hint that the original city - the one everyone keeps finding - has a LOT of similarities to ancient Batrachi ruins. The idea is that the Batarchi portal-magic had culminated in the ultimate artifact - a massive, omni-dimensional Bukhara Spire and city all in one.
There may have been an Imaskari archpriest who took the title 'Aoskar' (we can still use my definition), who - through worship - elevated himself to godhood, where he challenged the LoP. This, too, could be a recurring theme for the city.
Regardless, this is why I theorize the Imaskari forswore all gods (after the city vanished, and caused much turmoil).
That marries Rip's, Gray's, and my own theories all together - watcha think, Shemster?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 May 2012 17:00:58 |
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Lady of Pain
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 19:49:26
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***raises eyebrow bemusedly at topic***
***briefly considers incinerating everyone***
***drifts away*** |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 20:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady of Pain
***raises eyebrow bemusedly at topic***
***briefly considers incinerating everyone***
***drifts away***
Sweetness. 
On a more serious note, I don't know much about the Lady of Pain; but I DO know that the Obyriths are from another Multiverse...and she reminds me of them...she being the Lady of Pain. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 20:32:40
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| Aha, thanx Shemmy ... my questions seem to *always* end up with yet another reading of Blood War and Hellbound. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 20:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady of Pain
***raises eyebrow bemusedly at topic***
***briefly considers incinerating everyone***
***drifts away***
We weren't punished for this discussion? I am a-mazed!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 22:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
On a more serious note, I don't know much about the Lady of Pain; but I DO know that the Obyriths are from another Multiverse...
In 4e's cosmology they are, though that wasn't the case originally in 3.x when they were the creations of the baernaloth. I suppose it remains to be seen what cosmology (and continuity) will appear in 5e. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 00:19:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
On a more serious note, I don't know much about the Lady of Pain; but I DO know that the Obyriths are from another Multiverse...
In 4e's cosmology they are, though that wasn't the case originally in 3.x when they were the creations of the baernaloth. I suppose it remains to be seen what cosmology (and continuity) will appear in 5e.
True...BUT:
"Those nasty Baernaloth's were fecund liars...they just spread that rumor to try and convince everyone they were the "supreme" evil."
At least that is how the Sage Lymtar of Akanax spins HIS knowledge.
For me, I can spin information given any way I want to...I understand the need for a Canon explanation of some things; but the outer planes are easy for me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 01:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
On a more serious note, I don't know much about the Lady of Pain; but I DO know that the Obyriths are from another Multiverse...
In 4e's cosmology they are, though that wasn't the case originally in 3.x when they were the creations of the baernaloth. I suppose it remains to be seen what cosmology (and continuity) will appear in 5e.
I'm hoping some element of the Obyriths alternate-multiverse origins is retained in the 5e cosmology. It's a cool idea that really needs more time on the spotlight of development. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 02:32:13
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My brothers, I have recently convened with the great Vecna himself.
The cost was great and I do not expect to see the sun rise again.
My fellow posters The Lady of Pain is Kin to THE PALE NIGHT she is....ARGHR AHEEE....!!
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Edited by - jordanz on 19 May 2012 02:35:05 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 02:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I like it. Except the bit on Mystryl, as it contradicts prior lore. Mystryl never had a Chosen. It was Mystra who first had one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 May 2012 04:24:51 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I like it. Except the bit on Mystryl, as it contradicts prior lore. Mystryl never had a Chosen. It was Midnight-Mystra who first had one.
Mystra had Chosen before Midnight was born mate. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art. It's possible he could have even been a chosen of Mystryl.
I like it. Except the bit on Mystryl, as it contradicts prior lore. Mystryl never had a Chosen. It was Midnight-Mystra who first had one.
Mystra had Chosen before Midnight was born mate.
Of course, as even Elminster and Khelben predated Midnight. No, that's not what I meant earlier...I was supposed to delete Midnight.
I was only comparing Mystryl and Mystra... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 08:36:01
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quote:
The Sage
I'm hoping some element of the Obyriths alternate-multiverse origins is retained in the 5e cosmology. It's a cool idea that really needs more time on the spotlight of development.
I think this is a leftover from 3E. Specifically, inserting the Far Realms onto (or beyond) the map of the planes. A brilliant move, the ultimate expression of "Here Be Dragons", and a great way to tacitly acknowledge all those Cthulhu creatures and RPGs without violating anyone else's copyrights.
The Far Realms is a precedent from which anything could originate, it might be a frontier dimension on the fringe of the universe, or merely a sort of interfacing liaison-dimension between the D&D universe and any other (or others). More to the point, the existence of an "impossible" place where "other" things can come from means the possible (perhaps probable) existence of any number of other "impossible" things. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 14:43:33
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Why couldn't the baernaloth have created the Obyriths IN that other multiverse? That should reconcile both pieces of lore.
I like the idea that demons in-general have their roots in something that existed before the current multiverse - it gives them more of a Cthulhuesque vibe (which I normally don't care for... but it works for demons).
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
It also means that the Shadvari mentioned in the FR creation myth could be baernaloths. 
So, if Illithids (and certain other aberrations) existed in some other proto-universe, they may have been the 'mortals' to the baernaloth/shadvari 'demons'. These may have been the closest thing to gods and demons that existed in the antideluvian, Lovecraftian universe. Not so much evil, as they are primal (the primevals?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2012 14:43:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:03:50
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Could some deities (whatever alignment) past and present, be her own aspects? It's not unheard of that a greater entity takes some divided portions of its "self" and spreads to whatever place it desires to expand its reaches... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 03:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
Don't we have that already?
Granted, I'm not as "up" on my 4e core D&D fiction as I probably should be at this point, but my impression of the whole "Chained God" scenario, was that, at least for the 4e D&D setting, Tharizdun was in fact a great and powerfully destructive being left over from the end of the previous universe -- and attempting to re-establish himself in the current D&D-verse. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 04:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
Don't we have that already?
Granted, I'm not as "up" on my 4e core D&D fiction as I probably should be at this point, but my impression of the whole "Chained God" scenario, was that, at least for the 4e D&D setting, Tharizdun was in fact a great and powerfully destructive being left over from the end of the previous universe -- and attempting to re-establish himself in the current D&D-verse.
Nope, Tharizdun was actually a "Modern" God that found an Obyrith artifact that had been sent into his reality. He used the Artifact to Create the Abyss, which allowed the Obyriths to enter his own dimension. The other Gods, in their horror, chained Tharizdun to prevent him from using the power he had gained from the Obyriths.
His use of the Shard (can't recall what it is called) is both what made him truly evil and desire to destroy all...and the Shard allowed the Obyriths to invade. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:25:45
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So, could this possibly have been a time-invasion, rather then a spatial one?
Could the Obyriths have been from the 'time before time' (or is that the Age before ages?), and found a way to escape their own doom/whatever by creating an artifact that siphons-off their own universe and recreates it in the next?
Hmmmmm... that scenario sounds a lot like what happened with Tintageer/Evermeet (if the story is true) - that it was a self-fulfilling prophesy. What if the Obyriths foresaw (time being meaningless to them) the destruction of their universe, and they created the shard to protect a portion of it, but didn't realize it was the shard itself that would lead to the collapse of their universe (storing vast amounts of it and sending it into the future/another universe)?
And this is what happens when you use magic to meddle with time - you create a paradox-loop which rights itself by causing its own creation. Its probably what happened with the Dawn Cataclysm as well (something along the lines of the Spell that Doctor Strange cast to remove the events of X-Men 190-191 - he wound-up diverting something from an alternate timeline into his own).
In other words, if you mess with time, you will most-likely create a far worse situation for yourself. Whatever Lathander was trying to do, I really doubt he meant to split Tyche in half. That was merely something that needed to BE, in order for something else to have been changed (which probably had to do with Aumanator).
EDIT: I prefer Tharizdun as a Primordial rather then a deity - I think it works better that way. Note, I consider both to be 'gods' (along with many other beings not normally associated with that, like archfiends).
EDIT: I suppose that makes Baernaloths akin to primordials (the first beings in the new universe), and Obyriths would be something along the lines of a proto-ordial. So that would mean the term 'Shadvari' could be applied to any proto-ordial (that which existed before the universe itself).
So FR/D&D has many 'Galacti', rather then a single, monolithic Galactus. Kinda like mini-Galactus's, but without the silly hat.
 ...... What if Obyriths could form together and create a single entity? That could be Galactus!
Obyrithicus... devourer of worlds... I like it! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2012 17:41:39 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:37:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why couldn't the baernaloth have created the Obyriths IN that other multiverse? That should reconcile both pieces of lore.
I like the idea that demons in-general have their roots in something that existed before the current multiverse - it gives them more of a Cthulhuesque vibe (which I normally don't care for... but it works for demons).
It also makes baernaloths like Galactus from Marvel comics - a being from a defunct universe which actually feeds upon the current universe.
It also means that the Shadvari mentioned in the FR creation myth could be baernaloths.
So, if Illithids (and certain other aberrations) existed in some other proto-universe, they may have been the 'mortals' to the baernaloth/shadvari 'demons'. These may have been the closest thing to gods and demons that existed in the antideluvian, Lovecraftian universe. Not so much evil, as they are primal (the primevals?)
Not quite the same as from a previous multiverse, but the notion of something coming from outside of a given cosmos and thus existing beyond/outside of time relative to it is a fun concept to toy with. I've toyed with the vague notion in some fiction of mine where you might read the baernaloth not as the creators of anything so much as a virus that infects entire multiverses.
They arrive from somewhere outside, injected into the virgin flesh of a newborn cosmos and burrow deep, worming into the heart of a cell and incorporating themselves like a retrovirus and forever after tainting that creation with the concept of Evil, where it might never have existed before. They infect, consume, kill, and spread once more; a plague across realities, born on the ethereal winds of probability and formlessness. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:43:45
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Ahhhhhhh.... 
So The Abyss is actually a cancer? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 18:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhhhhhh....
So The Abyss is actually a cancer?
The baern, not the 4e obyriths. It's going to be pretty rare that I refer to any of the 4e cosmology. Though you could use the idea in that capacity too if you wanted. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 16:21:51
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Edition/system doesn't really matter here...
What I meant was that the Abyss itself is the cancer. What 'cells' its composed of - and its origins - don't really matter so much (there can be a thousand 'truths', and they could all be wrong... or all be right).
This follows upon the material presented in the 3e fiend books - that the legions of hell are actually fallen angels (originally), who were specialized in fighting this 'cancer'. They would, of course, be based nearby (in the lower planes).
Since cancer spreads (infects other cells/parts of the body), this is how those first fallen angels became contaminated. This is why the hordes of the Abyss are limitless - they replenish their numbers by contact; you can't destroy them, because you just add to their numbers in the long run.
The initial outbreak was in the outer planes, in the form of the Abyss, but now there are localized 'tumors' spreading throughout the body of the universe (like Khyber in EB).
The reason why I find this line of reasoning so interesting is that you could continue with the analogy - that sometimes 'goodly' beings will decide that places simply aren't worth saving, and 'cut' them from the main body of the universe - usually by exiling entire Realms (which could explain the hells, but also help to explain why certain Crystal Spheres are 'cut-off' from the greater D&D cosmology).
I had always thought that if anyone would side with the devils against the demons it would be the chaotic good, but now I think lawful good would want to protect their 'fallen brethren' for the sake of the greater universe (and the war against the 'Chaos Cancer'), and the chaotic good beings would want to destroy both the demons and the devils.
The thread seems to have morphed into a different discussion altogether - my apologies to the OP and mods.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 19:23:51
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Oh, I don't know; I don't think it has spread too far.
Perhaps the Lady of Pain is IN PAIN because of the cancer. Perhaps she is the personification of this reality made manifest. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 05:15:57
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Interesting.
She would would D&D's Infinity (from Marvel) to Ao's Eternity.
As Infinity, she would feel the universe's birth, illness, and death - this is why her life is pain personified. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 14:12:33
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| I had actually thought she was MORE than Ao or other such beings. She doesn't even administer other gods after all...she simply "IS" and all that. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:02:15
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She doesn't have to be 'above' Ao - his job is to administer them, whereas her job could be to stop them from doing something (like entering Sigil and causing an imbalance).
Ao treated deities like children that needed to be punished - that sounds an awful like the LoP, IMO.
But more importantly, I want to know who does her hair. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:21:11
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| I don't see any correlation between Ao and the Lady. Both (at least in theory) hold absolute power in their domains. Neither seems to ever be permitted to leave their domain nor enter the other's domain. They basically have no interaction and no need to interact at all. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:28:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
She doesn't have to be 'above' Ao - his job is to administer them, whereas her job could be to stop them from doing something (like entering Sigil and causing an imbalance).
Ao treated deities like children that needed to be punished - that sounds an awful like the LoP, IMO.
The Lady of Pain could enter Ao's crystal sphere should she want or need to, or project an iota of her being. Ao allowed the aboleths and the primordials to enter his domain, why wouldn't he do the same to the Lady IN Pain?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But more importantly, I want to know who does her hair.
Asmodeus. He was a hair stylist before he rose to become an archdevil. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:43:29
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| Whether the Lady is IN pain, from Ao's perspective, is neither relevant nor even established as more than wordplay and conjecture. The Lady's power and station in Sigil are unrelated to the relative power and stations of Ao, Aboleths, Primordials, or McDonalds anywhere outside Sigil. I don't accept the assertion that she is able to leave Sigil and/or enter Ao's domain, simply because no canon record of any such event exists, nothing even remotely like it after millennia and aeons worth of planar lore ... unless you could cite actual examples? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 May 2012 18:52:01 |
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Topic |
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The Lady of Pain's Identity
