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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 09:57:58
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We learned from The Return of the Archwizards trilogy that one of the factors that weakened Evareska's mythal was the phaerimm's lifedrain. Other than the Sharn Wall, has there been a known counterspell to it ever since? Did the High Mages of Evareska even attempted to create it? Some might think that given that several archwizards, including Lady Polaris and Karsus himself, and most probably Ioulaum and Larloch, too, had tried to unravel the secrets of the lifedrain---and failed, what chances did the High Mages have at success? But I say it's still worth the try, considering that it was their city which was at stake. Then again, mayhap they couldn't have spared even a single wizard researching on a counterspell when every one of them was direly needed to foil the attacks of the phaerimm's armies...
Candlemas was able to create a spell that countered the lifedrain's effects to his crops. But it was unknown whether such spell was effective only to specific plants or to all kinds, since he died before he could fully make use of it. Also, as far as I can recall, it didn't counter the lifedrain's effects on the land itself.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Jun 2011 10:10:42
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 10:43:25
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I'm under the impression that mythals are typically able to resist phaerimm lifedrain and magicdrain, although it really seems to become a contest between how many mages can reinforce the mythal vs how many phaerimm can attack it. Evereska's mythal failed for a number of reasons, not the least being a shortage of qualified mages to keep it going strong ... very much the same thing as having an invincible city fortress yet only a few dozen soldiers to defend it.
Mythals seem to self-repair in an organic fashion given sufficient time and exposure to (non-hostile) ambient magic, I think they essentially replenish and heal themselves by drawing power from the Weave (or from properly attuned spellcasters manipulating this Weave power into them), and I think damaged or strained areas within the Weave (including wild- and dead-magic zones, the latter being a phaerimm specialty) generally translate into impending mythal failure ... how long can machines operate on batteries or creatures go without food while maintaining peak performance? Mythals are a complex synergy of numerous other magics, they seem to gradually suffer from accumulated symptoms of partial failure, functioning intermittently and diminishing in efficiency and reliability rather than simply collapsing entirely, just like any other sophisticated construct - say, an aircraft or computer*. In short, mythals seem to be engineered with some internal redundancies and fault tolerances, indeed true mythals are generally assumed to be quasi-sentient and demonstrate survival instincts along with decision-making capabilities.**
* Erevan was really just a talented and slightly lucky hacker, when you boil it all down.
** Wouldn't an insane mythal be fun to play with?
I imagine the Sharn Wall is/was something like a mythal in many ways, albeit one dedicated (as far as we can tell) to a single fixed function. The Sharn and their magics are entirely enigmatic, so it's possible their barrier was made from mythal or shadow or silverfire or some sort of dweomer from an entirely alien plane or whatever. It's not even known if Sharn magics (or phaerimm magics, for that matter) are constrained by any of the recognizable "physical laws of magic" (D&D rules, lol) as they are imposed upon the Realms by Mystra/Ao/WotC/etc. There are also many mythal-like magics in existence, including Netherese spells, warding magics of the North, Red Wizard circle magics, spells from exotic Kara-Tur and Zakhara, and all sorts of unique spells ... individual Chosen, liches, and dragons are known to constantly invent and tinker with mythal-like magics. Any of these might inhibit phaerimm lifedrain to some extent, even if only within a small locality. And that's just arcance magics - it doesn't at all consider special constructs of divine magic employed within dwarven citadels or by priests and clerics of almost every faith in the Realms.
[Edit]
Speculating a bit on the nature of the Sharn Wall, it seems to fulfill a function similar to various circles and pentagrams and such as they are used by D&D spellcasters. These symbolic constructs allow creatures (most often fiends) to be "safely" contained. That is, "safe" in the context of the creature being confined and rendered (comparatively) powerless, since it is severed and isolated from its native other-planar source of power. Phaerimm are said to be aberrations from the Far Realms - which is really just the D&D dumping ground for "strange, repulsive, and hungry things" ranging from yucky yet benign slugs through a large range of creatures who (one way or another) want to eat your brain all the way up to overgodly apocalyptic Elder Ones Who Cannot Be Named. Fiends, even tanar'ri demons, are involuntarily compelled to obey certain rules intrinsic to their fundamental nature, aberrations from the Far Realms (such as the phaerimm) lack any real conformity at all in their nature beyond a shared affinity for being slimy and tentacled. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Jun 2011 11:45:43 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 02:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm under the impression that mythals are typically able to resist phaerimm lifedrain and magicdrain. [snip]
Not for a long time. Eventually, it will drain itself. Here's an excerpt from The Summoning which explains that: [Highlights are mine]
quote:
Most of the Long Watch felt their duties were of little real importance to the war, that they were only standing a post to free the real soldiers to fight, but Keya was not so sure. She had it from Manynestsif she understood his scattered peeptalk correctlythat the Cloudtop Magi Circle had divined the phaerimm's plan. They intended to capture Evereska much the same way they had destroyed the Netherese Empire, by using their life-draining magic to devitalize Evereska Vale. Without the surrounding lands to sustain it, the city's mythal would slowly lose its magic, and eventually it would grow too weak to keep out the thorn-backs.
At first, Lord Duirsar had not been overly worried. The groves and lands within the mythal were large enough to sustain its power for a year or two, by which time help would surely arrive. Then the high mages of the Bellcrest Spire had reminded him that plants need light and water, and the Moon-dark Circle had named a dozen spells that could shut off both.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Mythals are a complex synergy of numerous other magics, they seem to gradually suffer from accumulated symptoms of partial failure, functioning intermittently and diminishing in efficiency and reliability rather than simply collapsing entirely.[snip]
I disagree. It would collapse if the very things that keep it functional lose their vitality, as evidenced in the excerpt. Also, one of the High Mages (or was it Khelben?) demanded that the Shadovar must remove the Shadowshell because, while it helped them by imprisoning the phaerimm, it was also blocking the sun, the effects of which would be the eventual collapse of the mythal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 04:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Other than the Sharn Wall, has there been a known counterspell to it ever since?
-Not that we know of, that I know of.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Did the High Mages of Evareska even attempted to create it?
-There is nothing written anywhere that they did, but it's certainly plausible. Something like the Phaerimm's lifedrain, it would threaten Evereska if it "spread" that far. Just by proxy of survival, I am sure that magi in the city at the very least postulated possible ways to reverse/defend against it, should they need to actually do so. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:06:15
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Another outcome if Evareska had fallen under the lifedrain would be the sharn's intervention. I doubt that they would ever allow the phaerimm to create yet another Anauroch. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Another outcome if Evareska had fallen under the lifedrain would be the sharn's intervention. I doubt that they would ever allow the phaerimm to create yet another Anauroch.
-During the war on Evereska in 1371-1372 DR, the Phaerimm were not so much employing that powerful lifedrain magic so much as they were "simply" feeding on the city-state's Mythal. If they did start using it, and killing the land emanating from Evereska, maybe the Sharn might intervene like they did during their previous conflict with the Phaerimm, but maybe they wouldn't. The Sharn are chaotic and unpredictable, after all. Maybe the factors that led them to intervene the first time might not have been present more contemporarily, whatever they might have been. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:29:19
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The Sharn answer to the Pentad, who, I think, would not condone such widespread destruction.
On a slightly different note, do you think the Shadovar's Shadowshell weakened the lifedrain? The only visible and known effects it had were the blocking of the phaerimm's teleportation abilities and, of course, the enervating of Evareska's mythal since it blocked sunlight necessary to keep the Vale hale. The phaerimm trapped in the shell, or the dead wall, were still able to cast certain types of deadly magic. It remained unknown whether the Shadowshell limited their spell arsenal in other ways. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 05:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Sharn answer to the Pentad, who, I think, would not condone such widespread destruction.
-As far as I recall, based on Blackstaff, those particular Sharn answered to/served the Pentad, but the entire Sharn collective didn't, necessarily. That might have changed with newer, 4e information, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
On a slightly different note, do you think the Shadovar's Shadowshell weakened the lifedrain? The only visible and known effects it had were the blocking of the phaerimm's teleportation abilities and, of course, the enervating of Evareska's mythal since it blocked sunlight necessary to keep the Vale hale. The phaerimm trapped in the shell, or the dead wall, were still able to cast certain types of deadly magic. It remained unknown whether the Shadowshell limited their spell arsenal in other ways.
-I don't know if it could, since we didn't see the Phaerimm using that magic en masse, like they did with Netheril. Personally, though, I don't think that it would block it's spread/progression. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 07:08:28
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What is the source of phaerimm draining? Is it based on the Weave, Shadow Weave, something else foreign to the Realms? I note that it's remarkably similar to the defiler magic which wasted the Dark Sun world of Athas, and which has been presented in various optional 2E and later rulebooks.
I don't entirely disagree with your assertions about mythals, Dennis, since I've read the same sources and much of what I said above is essentially based on speculation (my own and others). In short, I think mythals are a sort of living magical construct, and can be weakened or killed through starvation and assault upon their localized Weave. Myth Drannor's mythal, and a few others, suffered partial failure and even some bizarre (and sometimes very dangerous) alterations which resulted from some combination of imperfect design/implementation, aging and lack of (qualified) maintenance, damage from malign interference, or instability stresses caused by several Mystra-death interregna. I think of these partial failures as being equivalent to a living creature being maimed, crippled, driven insane, or growing weary and senile; for most this would mean reduced capacities, for a few this would force an opportunity to compensate, overspecialize, and possibly even exceed original parameters. If they are sapient and dynamic, then mythals would invariably learn and be changed from the experiences of passing centuries. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Jun 2011 07:24:45 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 08:52:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
What is the source of phaerimm draining? Is it based on the Weave, Shadow Weave, something else foreign to the Realms? I note that it's remarkably similar to the defiler magic which wasted the Dark Sun world of Athas, and which has been presented in various optional 2E and later rulebooks.
There is no explanation as to the exact nature of the lifedrain. We don't even know if it takes a dozen or score phaerimm to maintain it, or just one. It could be a magical disease that feeds primarily on the material it destroys, only needing a mild pushing by a lone phaerimm for it to spread. Or it could be something that feeds directly and only on the phaerimm's magic, requiring globs and globs of magical energy to function.
It would be interesting to know what Telamont thinks of it. Certainly, he wouldn't let history repeat itself. So by now, he must be sparing ample time to research on the means to counter it. The Shades' presence was hardly an immediate threat to the phaerimm. They were too few to cause magical storms, the very things that had prompted the thornbacks to cast the lifedrain on ancient Netheril. But we'll never know until when the Shadovar remain innocuous to the phaerimm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 10:37:06
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There was an improved mythallar invented, who knows what were it's powers, probably some against the draining
Possibly the preserver magic from Dark Sun could counter it |
z455t |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 11:25:53
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Interesting. Perhaps Shade Enclave's mythallar renders the entire city immune to any draining magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 13:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Possibly the preserver magic from Dark Sun could counter it
-That's a very good point, actually. Their lifedrain spells are/were eerily similar to Defiler magic, in what it accomplished.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. Perhaps Shade Enclave's mythallar renders the entire city immune to any draining magic.
-Doubtful. Were that the case, it would have been mentioned in any of the various sourcebooks/adventures/novels dealing with, in whole or in part, that era of Netheril. A possible exception for Shade was never mentioned. Also, if Shade was somehow exempt, you'd think the other Arcanists of Netheril would notice, and would try to figure out how to mimic what Shade did. As far as we know, Shade was a reclusive Enclave that no one tried to mimic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 20 Jun 2011 13:52:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 14:03:24
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It seems very likely that Thultanthar's mythallar is constructed of Shadow Weave stuff. If not originally in ancient Netheril, then later (as a replacement for a damaged or depleted one?) in the Demiplane of Shadow Shadowfell, ie: not necessarily constrained by the limitations imposed on the Realms by Mystra's Weave [assuming of course that you don't prefer the pan-dimensional world-spanning post-SpellPlague redefinition of Mystra's dominion].
The phaerimm may not be bothered by a shadow-mythallar. Equally possible, Telamont may have devised some method of defending his mythallar/city from phaerimm draining, or making it less detectable to them. He may have developed some magical weapon which counters phaerimm draining, he may have even devised a refinement which allows his mythallar to operate without generating the sort of "pollution" phaerimm find offensive. Remember that ancient Netheril was deeply entrenched in their struggle with the phaerimm and thus finding a method to appease or combat them may have been a priority project during the earlier centuries of Shade's self-imposed planar exile.
Also note that Shade is quite busy terraforming the lifeless Anauroch wasteland - with remarkable success and in clear opposition to the effects of phaerimm draining. I imagine that pseudo-undead shades themselves are not necessarily affected by this drain the same way living people would be, but not all citizens of Shade are shades and they must obviously require fertile lands to grow food crops unless they're undertaking their monumentally expensive terraforming for indiscernable/pointless reasons. I'm almost hesitant about mentioning my idea that perhaps the Shadovar terraforming life-magic is vaguely similar to mythals or the Sharn Wall in some fundamental way. Then again, it might just be Shar spamming her divine power around - all manner of cheating is possible when a deity takes enough interest to throw the rules of magic out the window.
It may be that the Shadovar's one (or two) working mythallars are just not enough to be particularly noxious to the phaerimm, hardly worth the effort to attack when they're easier avoided ... or alternately, it may be that the phaerimm already have plans and plots in motion to strike Shade at a critical moment and finally destroy the last remnants from the only group of mages who possess the threatening forbidden knowledge of mythallar fabrication. For all I know, the shadovar form war parties and safaris to destroy phaerimm (or vice versa), similar to the way packs of githyanki/githzerai and illithids constantly hunt for each other. It would be interesting to see if Telamont is able to construct more mythallars, indeed it may even be possible for any mage of sufficient level to do so. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Jun 2011 14:21:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2011 : 17:50:09
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| Keep in mind that the lifedrain spells were cast literally centuries ago. The magic has undoubtedly faded away by now -- but the desert conditions created by the spells remained. Once the desert was created, it became self-sustaining. The Shadovar efforts are reversing that change, but all they're fighting is the environment, not the lingering magic of the phaerimm. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 05:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Doubtful. Were that the case, it would have been mentioned in any of the various sourcebooks/adventures/novels dealing with, in whole or in part, that era of Netheril. A possible exception for Shade was never mentioned. Also, if Shade was somehow exempt, you'd think the other Arcanists of Netheril would notice, and would try to figure out how to mimic what Shade did. As far as we know, Shade was a reclusive Enclave that no one tried to mimic.
I wasn't referring to pre-Fall Shade Enclave, but the new/reborn empire of Netheril. Telamont has grown far stronger since the Fall, transformed into a being composed entirely of shadowstuff. He still blames the phaerimm (I think) for the destruction of their empire---for Karsus wouldn't have resorted to stealing Mystryl's divinity had he had better options to dispel the lifedrain. But with that hatred comes precaution. While the phaerimm are practically keeping to themselves these days, what guarantee does he have that they wouldn't do what they had done to his former home? So the possibility that he enhanced Shade's mythallar's capabilities to include resistance to magic-drain is not entirely groundless. It's a possibility that bears consideration.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Remember that ancient Netheril was deeply entrenched in their struggle with the phaerimm and thus finding a method to appease or combat them may have been a priority project during the earlier centuries of Shade's self-imposed planar exile.
An excellent point, Arik. It might also be the reason why Telamont bided his time in the Plane of Shadow before returning to the Prime Material Plane. A preparation of such magnitude might have taken him decades to complete, with long intervening hours, days, years, spent fighting the Malaugrym and all other horrors in the PoS.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Keep in mind that the lifedrain spells were cast literally centuries ago. The magic has undoubtedly faded away by now -- but the desert conditions created by the spells remained. Once the desert was created, it became self-sustaining. The Shadovar efforts are reversing that change, but all they're fighting is the environment, not the lingering magic of the phaerimm.
But why did the phaerimm let the Shades undo one of their most monumental achievements in history?
Well, I guess two mythallars (Sakkors's and Shade's), no matter how powerful, are nearly nothing compared to the hundreds used during Netheril's Golden and Shadowed Ages, not enough to cause magical storms that the phaerimm vehemently oppose. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 21 Jun 2011 05:34:09 |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 15:52:42
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Lifedrain was an 8th level wizard spell in 2E that created desert-like conditions in its environment, but was relatively difficult to dispel (compared to most spells at least). In 2E AD&D it created 70ft radius sphere where all water vanished and it could not fall, concentrate, and basically did not exist. It also caused living creatures who remained there to take damage every turn due to dehydration, killed plant life, and made it impossible for plants to grow. For lack of a better title it was basically a create desert spell. Casting it drained 1 hp permanently from the caster (likely would be replaced with an XP cost in 3E) and the duration would last one year per caster level. The only means of removing the spell before its duration expired was to slay the caster or cast a limited wish spell. Even still, as mentioned above, once desert conditions have prevailed for 20-40 years such as the case with Anauroch, it is likely that it would have remained so even after the fall due to erosion, destruction of the ecosystem, and mass-migrations of fauna.
While such a spell would be relatively easy to counter, that would require the elves to have free movement in the surrounding lands beyond the mythal boundary without being detected, or potentially risking the city itself by speaking the word of passing within earshot of a concealed Phaerimm. It also assumes that the number of elves capable of casting a limited wish spell (and the number of castings per such elf) exceeds the number of Phaerimm casting such spells (whom as sorcerers, could do so repeatedly at their leisure).
The more important issue is that even if the elves could undo the magic, the damage to the land itself is still there. Dispelling the effects will not cause the verdant fields to renew themselves, and it would be a small effort for the Phaerrim to destroy them through other means.
Evereskas mythal was not drained by the lifedrain spell, rather it was damaged by the destruction inflicted upon the lands surrounding it.
In the rules for creating mythals (see Lost Empires of Faerūn), there are several factors that can be incorporated into mythal creation that reduce the final spellcraft DC needed to research and cast it (and the associated gp/xp costs). These factors impose weaknesses on the mythal, allowing more powers to be imbued into it if it can decay over time (corruptible), is mystically tied to its surroundings (anchored), have a physical focus (capstone), etc.
Certain cultures typically use one of more of these features, and like most elven mythals, Evereskas clearly used the anchored feature. Thus, any destructive or drastic changes to its surrounding physical, magical, or spiritual environment can force the mythal to make an integrity check every 24 hours that such conditions persist, with increasing difficulty for each previous check. Eventually once such a check fails the mythal will randomly begin to lose powers or have its powers twisted into potentially opposing or undesirable effects.
In addition, once the Phaerimm triumvirate had entered the city and the mythal had been suitably weakened, it is likely that they could have cast epic spell that would have further dispelled or damaged its remaining powers, or corrupted the mythals remaining powers to suit their purposes.
While there are mythal rejuvenation spells to repair mythals that corrupt over time (i.e. mythals with the corruptible factor), no such option is listed for mythals that are anchored to the land itself. Even if such an option did exist, they are still costly to research and cast (1/2 costs and DC of the original mythal) and would be fairly difficult to pull off with so many of their high mages having been slain, and many of them who may not have been around when the mythal was first raised. Even still, if they can rejuvenate the damage to the mythal, it is still anchored to the land and thus so long as the siege continues it will be subject to further damage
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 17:58:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Keep in mind that the lifedrain spells were cast literally centuries ago. The magic has undoubtedly faded away by now -- but the desert conditions created by the spells remained. Once the desert was created, it became self-sustaining. The Shadovar efforts are reversing that change, but all they're fighting is the environment, not the lingering magic of the phaerimm.
-Especially in the wake of the Spellplague, where nothing is necessarily static anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wasn't referring to pre-Fall Shade Enclave, but the new/reborn empire of Netheril. Telamont has grown far stronger since the Fall, transformed into a being composed entirely of shadowstuff. He still blames the phaerimm (I think) for the destruction of their empire---for Karsus wouldn't have resorted to stealing Mystryl's divinity had he had better options to dispel the lifedrain. But with that hatred comes precaution. While the phaerimm are practically keeping to themselves these days, what guarantee does he have that they wouldn't do what they had done to his former home? So the possibility that he enhanced Shade's mythallar's capabilities to include resistance to magic-drain is not entirely groundless. It's a possibility that bears consideration.
-Oh, gotcha. Well, what Wooly said above is certainly possible. There's also the idea that, it's not necessarily the fact that they're using Shadow Weave magic, but the idea that it's been several hundred years since the initial discovery of the Phaerimm's lifedraining magic, and in that time, the Shadovar have had time to do more research into the essence of the spells the Phaerimm cast, and how to dispel/undue them. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 21 Jun 2011 18:02:26 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 16:41:53
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quote:
The Simbul
Lifedrain was an 8th level wizard spell in 2E that created desert-like conditions in its environment...
Your argument is valid, Simbul. Although just to nitpick on a few technicalities ...
Ancient Netheril predated 2E, and even provided magic rules which "reverted" to a Mystryl-based retcon into a sort of neo-1E. In practical terms this usually meant spells were largely unchanged but the 1E versions (as used by the phaerimm, presumably) did not have any maximum level/parameter caps and were often far more powerful than their 2E equivalents in the hands of high-level spellcasters. It might be that the phaerimm were casting an 8th level lifedrain spell with greatly multiplied effect.
On a bit of the same note as above, Netherese arcanists routinely used 10th and 11th level spells. In many cases these spells were basically 9th level magics with tremendously increased magnitude. Indeed, Netheril made extensive use of these sorts of magics to create and control climates and environments (in much the same way as the Shadovar appear to be doing), so it's not unreasonable to accept the possibility of phaerimm draining being a 10th or 11th (or higher) level magic as well.
The source and properties of phaerimm lifedrain and magicdrain are not well defined or understood. It might be deliberately caused through their casting of a spell such as you describe. It might be an incidental/secondary product of their biology or the way they practice magic, just as it is for defiler wizards in Dark Sun. Or a product of the way Netheril (or Netherese mythallars) manipulated magic. Or a sort of natural phenomenom (as caused by nature or Mystra, lol) or even some bizarre gestalt composed from any mixture of these possibilities. It almost seems to me that desolate lifeless wasteland is the inevitable consequence of overstressed magical use/abuse in any region of any world ... be it a sort of ecological damage or pollution, or an injury to an organic "living" magical field, or consumption and depletion of an abundant yet limited natural resource. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Jun 2011 16:53:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 18:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
[*]The source and properties of phaerimm lifedrain and magicdrain are not well defined or understood.
What's not well-defined or understood about a full write-up of the spell, with its effects explicitly defined?
quote:
A lifedrain spell destroys water within its area of effect - and prevents water from existing in the area of effect: water cannot fall into, form within, condense
within, or flow into the spherical area of effect of this spell.
That's it. It's a big dry bubble, that's going to last for years. I don't see where there is any room to question its effects.
The spell is described in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, on pages 57-8 of the Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 18:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
[*]The source and properties of phaerimm lifedrain and magicdrain are not well defined or understood.
What's not well-defined or understood about a full write-up of the spell, with its effects explicitly defined?
-I think what he's saying is it might not be that spell, as written, that the Phaerimm were using. Because of other factors, such as the Netherese having such trouble detecting and dispelling it, or the fact that, intermittently around Netheril, magic was failing, it may have been another, similar spell, or that spell, but augmented in some way, shape or form, such that the lifedrain spell described in detail in whatever 2e book it was listed in =/= the lifedraining magics the Phaerimm were using. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 19:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
[*]The source and properties of phaerimm lifedrain and magicdrain are not well defined or understood.
What's not well-defined or understood about a full write-up of the spell, with its effects explicitly defined?
-I think what he's saying is it might not be that spell, as written, that the Phaerimm were using. Because of other factors, such as the Netherese having such trouble detecting and dispelling it, or the fact that, intermittently around Netheril, magic was failing, it may have been another, similar spell, or that spell, but augmented in some way, shape or form, such that the lifedrain spell described in detail in whatever 2e book it was listed in =/= the lifedraining magics the Phaerimm were using.
I don't see where there is any question about that... Ed wrote Anauroch, saying the phaerimm used that spell, and then he wrote the Myth Drannor boxed set, where we find that spell description -- which is described as being very difficult to counter. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 00:28:22
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I think the implication here is that lifedrain destroys
water, the most basic component of life. Magic is the
Weave, and is composed of all the natural processes thereof
in Faerun.
Now take away the living part of natural processes in the
area, growing, dying, the O2 and C02 exchange in plants,
rotting and decomposing, body heat, etc, etc, etc: and
now magic becomes a whole lot less due to the loss of said
life processes. I think that is why lots of plants and
beings inside a mythal stave off the weakening effects of
a mythal.
Just my 2 cents.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 02:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
It also caused living creatures who remained there to take damage every turn due to dehydration, killed plant life, and made it impossible for plants to grow. For lack of a better title it was basically a create desert spell.
I'd like to note that it's more than just creating a desert, though that's the primary goal of the phaerimm. In the short story First Flight by Edward Bolme, from the anthology Realms of the Dragons, the archwizard Seggred mentioned one of his discoveries---the effects of lifedrain to humans, wizards and common folks alike: wizards miscast spells for no apparent reason; and some died suddenly despite having no malady at all; and their souls were obliterated that no priest could resurrect the bodies.
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
Evereskas mythal was not drained by the lifedrain spell, rather it was damaged by the destruction inflicted upon the lands surrounding it.
The main purpose of the lifedrain was to destroy the land. When that happens, the mythal, being (as you pointed out) connected to the land, would consequently collapse. However, the lifedrain is a complex spell that affects not only the land. In the time of lost Netheril, magical items malfunctioned, wards suddenly weakened, spells went haywire in some areas. So if the lifedrain affected Netherese magic in such form, then so will it affect elven magic---in this case, their mythal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 04:55:06
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The canon description of the lifedrain spell does not do anything other than get rid of water. The description even mentions using it as a utility spell, which would certainly not be the case if it had other effects.
Any other effects observed by the Netherese would be the results of other magics. And considering the intelligence and magical abilities of the phaerimm, it's pretty safe to assume that they had more than one tactic in their fight against the Netherese. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Jun 2011 04:58:06 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 05:07:01
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Probably. Or those could be the by-products of the lifedrain's intended effects. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 07:23:32
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As LK pointed out, I was trying to explain that we are uncertain whether phaerimm were casting that particular spell or have some other spell/magic/unknown method of causing their draining. In fact, we're not completely certain that phaerimm caused lifedrain at all, it may have been caused by Netheril's mythallars and abusively manic magic consumption. Netheril's arcanists did certainly suffer from phaerimm-initiated magic drain. I don't know if the life drain and magic drain were implemented through a single spell or through separate ones. To me it seems highly likely the phaerimm operate somewhat like most of the classic evil organizations - they probably compete like piranhas more than they cooperate and they probably distribute their focus on numerous isolated ambitions ... it seems likely the only reason they acted with any unified purpose was their need to save their race from being extinguished.
[Edit]
I doubt ancient Netheril would have all that much difficulty dealing with a lowly 8th level spell that simply destroys moisture. There has to be more to phaerimm draining than the spell described in Myth Drannor. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Jun 2011 07:25:11 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 07:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I doubt ancient Netheril would have all that much difficulty dealing with a lowly 8th level spell that simply destroys moisture. There has to be more to phaerimm draining than the spell described in Myth Drannor.
Agreed. The Netherese archwizards could cast spells beyond that level. It would have been easily dispelled if that was its level. The fact that it wasn't countered at all goes to say there's more to it than its meager description by Ed. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 10:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
As LK pointed out, I was trying to explain that we are uncertain whether phaerimm were casting that particular spell or have some other spell/magic/unknown method of causing their draining. In fact, we're not completely certain that phaerimm caused lifedrain at all, it may have been caused by Netheril's mythallars and abusively manic magic consumption. Netheril's arcanists did certainly suffer from phaerimm-initiated magic drain. I don't know if the life drain and magic drain were implemented through a single spell or through separate ones. To me it seems highly likely the phaerimm operate somewhat like most of the classic evil organizations - they probably compete like piranhas more than they cooperate and they probably distribute their focus on numerous isolated ambitions ... it seems likely the only reason they acted with any unified purpose was their need to save their race from being extinguished.
[Edit]
I doubt ancient Netheril would have all that much difficulty dealing with a lowly 8th level spell that simply destroys moisture. There has to be more to phaerimm draining than the spell described in Myth Drannor.
It's explicitly stated the phaerimm were using that spell. Seems pretty clear to me.
Why does there have to be more to that spell? It takes a limited wish or more to counter it -- which isn't something most folks would think to try. Also, the phaerimm were casting this spell multiple times in multiple places -- and it took the disorganized Netherese a while to even realize something was up. There were widescale effects before the Netherese even attempted to do something about it, and their efforts were disorganized and sporadic.
Again, we have an explicit spell description, provided by the same person who said what the phaerimm were doing. It's clear that the phaerimm were casting the lifedrain spell, and it's clear what its exact effects were. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 17:49:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see where there is any question about that... Ed wrote Anauroch, saying the phaerimm used that spell, and then he wrote the Myth Drannor boxed set, where we find that spell description -- which is described as being very difficult to counter.
-I think it's pretty obvious, given that the spells that the Phaerimm were using went above and beyond what the Simbul described as what the spell said it did, that it wasn't that exact spell, but some kind of augmentation of it, or variation on it- maybe an Epic Magic version of it. The Phaerimm's Lifedrain spell is the primary culprit for what befell Netheril, as per LEoF, and everything that happened to the Netherese. That Lifedrain spell is/was relatively easy to counter, as stated by Simbul himself, based on what was needed to dispel it. As we know, the Netherese were confuddled time and time again trying to identify and dispel the Phaerimm's spell. Multiple Netherese Arcanists had access to Wish, or Limited Wish, and it wouldn't make sense for them- especially Karsus, who went above and beyond to deal with the problem- wouldn't try something relatively easier. Why destroy and rebuild your house when you have a termite problem when you can call the exterminator and pay him to do it? That Lifedrain spell, nothing is mentioned of intermittently causing/creating Dead Magic Zones, which plagued the Netherese during this period of time, because of the magic the Phaerimm were weaving, causing the deaths of various Arcanists, and the complete destruction of an Enclave or two. 'A' isn't equaling 'B' here. Their variation of the spell seemingly isn't the listed one, based on the scale and effects of what happened. No other widespread magics are mentioned as being cast by the Phaerimm, such as some kind of mass Dispel Magic, or anything else like that; just the Lifedrain. Is it possible they cast other widespread spells, like the Lifedrain? Possible, but no sources make any claims to that effect. Only the Lifedrain. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 23 Jun 2011 18:07:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 18:15:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see where there is any question about that... Ed wrote Anauroch, saying the phaerimm used that spell, and then he wrote the Myth Drannor boxed set, where we find that spell description -- which is described as being very difficult to counter.
-I think it's pretty obvious, given that the spells that the Phaerimm were using went above and beyond what the Simbul described as what the spell said it did, that it wasn't that exact spell, but some kind of augmentation of it, or variation on it- maybe an Epic Magic version of it. That Lifedrain spell is/was relatively easy to counter, as stated by Simbul himself, based on what was needed to dispel it. As we know, the Netherese were confuddled time and time again trying to identify and dispel the Phaerimm's spell. Multiple Netherese Arcanists had access to Wish, or Limited Wish, and it wouldn't make sense for them- especially Karsus, who went above and beyond to deal with the problem- wouldn't try something relatively easier. Why destroy and rebuild your house when you have a termite problem when you can call the exterminator and pay him to do it? That Lifedrain spell, nothing is mentioned of intermittently causing/creating Dead Magic Zones, which plagued the Netherese during this period of time, because of the magic the Phaerimm were weaving, causing the deaths of various Arcanists, and the complete destruction of an Enclave or two. 'A' isn't equaling 'B' here. Their variation of the spell seemingly isn't the listed one, based on the scale and effects of what happened.
It's not at all obvious. We have an explicit spell description from the same person who invented the phaerimm and who said they were using that spell.
I fail to see the issue here. We know that the spell is difficult to dispel -- not everyone is going to even think of trying limited wish or something more powerful, or have the spell memorized when they need it. And the Netherese, in their arrogance, likely assumed that they were powerful enough to dispel magic any magical effect.
Not only that, but the phaerimm were layering it everywhere, so it would take so many powerful spells to dispel it that it's not funny -- and while the Netherese were dispelling those, the phaerimm could simply come back behind them and repeat the spells.
Additionally, the Netherese didn't immediately realize they were being attacked -- at first they simply moved their enclaves away from blighted sections of land. The Netherese were fighting an uphill battle the whole time.
Lastly, we know that lifedrain was the spell used against the land itself. We also know it wasn't the only thing the phaerimm were doing. Giving an explicit spell description, and explicit mention of other things the phaerimm were doing, I don't see how there is any basis to assume lifedrain did anything beyond what the spell's creator says it could do. |
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