| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Jun 2011 : 09:57:58
We learned from The Return of the Archwizards trilogy that one of the factors that weakened Evareska's mythal was the phaerimm's lifedrain. Other than the Sharn Wall, has there been a known counterspell to it ever since? Did the High Mages of Evareska even attempted to create it? Some might think that given that several archwizards, including Lady Polaris and Karsus himself, and most probably Ioulaum and Larloch, too, had tried to unravel the secrets of the lifedrain---and failed, what chances did the High Mages have at success? But I say it's still worth the try, considering that it was their city which was at stake. Then again, mayhap they couldn't have spared even a single wizard researching on a counterspell when every one of them was direly needed to foil the attacks of the phaerimm's armies...
Candlemas was able to create a spell that countered the lifedrain's effects to his crops. But it was unknown whether such spell was effective only to specific plants or to all kinds, since he died before he could fully make use of it. Also, as far as I can recall, it didn't counter the lifedrain's effects on the land itself. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Aug 2011 : 06:01:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And, no, Saer Cormaeril, Ed isn't the Stan Lee of the Forgotten Realms. Ed is THE creator of the Forgotten Realms, and if certain (admittedly unlikely) conditions come to pass, full ownership of them returns to him. So if you don't like his words being canon, that's just too bad. And your or my opinion of the "goodness" or benefit of that simply doesn't matter. We should all be grateful Ed is such a generous, plays-well-with-others guy. If he was more like, say, Harlan Ellison, many posters here at Candlekeep would have to be far more careful with their comments. Ahem.
love to all,
THO
Hmmm. That sounds somewhat similar to the relationship Jack Kirby and his estate now have with The King's creations.
Would you, milady, assume that this is a more valid comparison?
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| Saer Cormaeril |
Posted - 19 Aug 2011 : 04:01:35
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, THO, but I think that "The Stan Lee" of the Realms is a fitting, and complimentary moniker. If only because I consider Ed to be a plays-well-with-others kind of guy.
That type of attitude only benefited Stan Lee's creation, and certainly benefits the Forgotten Realms. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Aug 2011 : 03:38:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
"Too much" IS difficult to quantify, Dennis, but remember that we're talking of a race here. Just as humans have different heights, weights, strengths, and skills, so too do Phaerimm. "Too much" for one specific individual isn't too much for another. I sympathize with your yearning more for a more specific reason, but life often isn't that clear-cut.
And I appreciate Ed for replying. But life isn't about liking everything that's been given to us, either. Otherwise, we'd become too lazy to even bother to try making our lives better... |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 19 Aug 2011 : 02:58:46
"Too much" IS difficult to quantify, Dennis, but remember that we're talking of a race here. Just as humans have different heights, weights, strengths, and skills, so too do Phaerimm. "Too much" for one specific individual isn't too much for another. I sympathize with your yearning more for a more specific reason, but life often isn't that clear-cut. Or as Yogi Berra once said (I'm paraphrasing here), "On paper, X (team) will handily beat Y (team), but there's a REASON we actually play the games."
And, no, Saer Cormaeril, Ed isn't the Stan Lee of the Forgotten Realms. Ed is THE creator of the Forgotten Realms, and if certain (admittedly unlikely) conditions come to pass, full ownership of them returns to him. So if you don't like his words being canon, that's just too bad. And your or my opinion of the "goodness" or benefit of that simply doesn't matter. We should all be grateful Ed is such a generous, plays-well-with-others guy. If he was more like, say, Harlan Ellison, many posters here at Candlekeep would have to be far more careful with their comments. Ahem.
love to all,
THO |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Aug 2011 : 02:13:46
It looks like you have the right of it, Wooly. Though I must admit I would have found the reason more interesting if it were about the nature of the storms than the simple weakness of the phaerimm. Here's what Ed said:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
I bring a reply from Ed to Dennis, re. this: "Hi Ed and THO! I was reviewing some posts in a certain thread when something occurred to me...
The phaerimm absorb magic, the Weave-based magic at least. But in the novel Sword Play, the magic storms, which were fueled by the Netherese's careless and relentless use of magic, caused deaths of several of the thornbacks. They should have been able to absorb the storm, right? In the first place, it's just a mass of magic. Or was there some material or essence in the storm that made it inedible and destructive to the phaerimm?"
Ed replies:
Hi, Dennis. The Phaerimm absorb magic consciously, not involuntarily (i.e. it's not automatic, and won't occur if they're "not ready" for it). Moreover, all Phaerimm have a maximum capacity, beyond which excess magic harms them, just as Shandril is/was harmed by excess spellfire. That's what happened in SWORD PLAY; individual goit overloaded so badly that the spillover magic was enough to slay them.
So saith Ed. Who is hard at work on more Realms delights for us all, he tells me...
love,
THO
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| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 23:11:05
"Too much" is difficult to quantify, if it's even possible. You see, the Evareskan mythal was a web of "too much" magic. But not even its mightiest offensive/retaliatory attacks managed to hurt/kill a phaerimm. So I'd rather go with a more "specific" reason. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 22:49:33
It could have been a particular element of the magic that made the phaerimm unable to absorb it, or it could have simply been too much to absorb -- overwhelming them with excess energies. A human can drink water, but not salt water, and he could still drown if you tossed him into a lake. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 22:27:19
An apt comparison. Though I guess we should move on from the 'who's the real captain of the ship' debate. I guess pretty much everyone gets the gist already. |
| Saer Cormaeril |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 18:45:20
One problem that tends to come up, A LOT, is the fact that Ed's words are canon, UNTIL A PUBLISHED SOURCE CONTRADICTS THEM. Pass the crow.
Dennis, I think you've got the right of it on most counts. It is clear that the Archwizards of Netheril, 1370s forward, ARE COHESIVE, ARE DISCIPLINED, ARE UNIFIED and are (nearly) MAGICALLY PEERLESS.
Since Candlekeep loves to talk Marvel Comics as much as Forgotten Realms, I think the following analogy is appropriate: Ed Greenwood is the Stan Lee of the Forgotten Realms. Would the Marvel Universe benefit from laying the creative onus of that property at Stan's feet? I think not. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 06:26:09
Something's a bit confusing...and contradictory in itself... The phaerimm absorb magic, the Weave-based magic at least. But in the novel Sword Play, the magic storms, which were fueled by the Netherese's careless and relentless use of magic, caused deaths of several of the thornbacks. They should have been able to absorb the storm, right? In the first place, it's just a mass of magic. Or was there some material or essence in the storm that made it inedible and destructive to the phaerimm? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 18:24:35
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I'd like to point out a minor minor minor minor minor point about he wizards of ancient netheril not knowing the limited wish and wish spells.
they could of known it, but just becuase the netherese golden age stuff does not list it, does not mean they did not know it being that all the mages that did know it could of died out and the scrolls that they were on turned to dust or eaten.
just saying..
-Well, the stuff in Netheril: Empire of Magic was supposed to be all they knew, however unlikely.
Yeah, what I like to point out to people when they can't get over the fact that the netherese couldn't cast X is that... well, they hadn't tried everything yet. There is no doubting that the Romans were BRILLIANT, but they hadn't harnessed the power of electricity. There is no doubting that German scientists during WWII were amazing, but they would have been able to do so much more if they'd had modern day microchip technology. That all being said, I bet that there are some architectural/design ideas that both cultures had that are entirely lost to us today. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 18:12:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed saith:
slevyas has it right.
Dennis, you're still making the basic error of applying your own reasoning (and metagame hindsight) to the Netherese archwizards. Many of whom could and did experiment with EVERYTHING, consequences be darned, just for the heck of it. (How do I know this? Well, I AM the guy who created Netheril, and its enclaves, and most of the archwizards under discussion here. The guy whose Words Are Canon. Pass the soap.)
When designing Netheril, I specifically wrote about six archwizards who experimented extensively with necromancy on their own "low Netherese" subjects. I can't recall how much of that made it into print in published Realmslore, but it was in the same seven-plus pages that introduced the entire concept of floating cities (enclaves) fed and watered (and otherwise resourced) by Netherese living at a much lower standard in the "wilds" around and beneath the enclaves...so slade was familiar with it, and even if it didn't make it intact into print, it informed his design work.
The archwizards were not a unified group, and did not think of themselves as a group of "Netherese" pitted against the rest of the Realms. They were all fiercely independent, and considered EACH OTHER their chief rivals/foes. Most Netherese were not archwizards and not in the enclaves, and these "low Netherese" (many of whom were near-slaves to those of the enclaves) borrowed, seized, stole, and peacefully learned magic from everywhere they could, in part so as to be able to resist plundering archwizards from the enclaves. (So, yes, Dennis, you're quite right: they borrowed the magic of other races - - and many elves, concerned about the growing power [and utter lack of self-discipline] of the archwizards, covertly aided other Netherese so as to curb or weaken various archwizards.)
That's one of the reasons the arguments put forward by Dennis about the great power of the Netherese, and Telamont in the Realms of today, are so often wrong: they're based on the incorrect premise that the Netherese are a cohesive, disciplined force in battle, a unified people and society, whose magical might is peerless. Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
Many in the Realms of today look back at fallen Netheril and BELIEVE the Netherese were a cohesive, disciplined "height of human achievement" whose magical might was and is peerless, but that's very different from the reality.
What the Netherese truly were was a group of brilliant, ambitious magical experimenters who achieved a societal situation where no one was slowing or stopping them from trying any experiments they desired to, on anyone or anything...so some of them achieved swift and impressive results that other mages with fewer resources and a less supportive environment were unable to. Which was a large part of why the Mystryl/Mystra of the day let them go right on doing what they were (independently) doing.
I hope this helps clear up the situation somewhat. THO has relayed this thread to me, and much of the discussion has been interesting, but reading repeated posts from one party saying everyone else is wrong because he knows better is . . . tiresome, when it's simply not the case. Sorry to have to be so blunt, but watching the reasoned points made by Lord Karsus, slevyas, THO and others just swept aside is a tragic waste of everyone's time.
So there's Ed, setting the record straighter.
love to all,
THO
Thank you very much. I've always prided myself on magical tactics, and oftentimes tactics are dependent on order. However, sometimes tactics are based purely on chaos and deception. What I've read of Netheril reminded me of another version of Thay, which is why I really liked the original idea that the red wizards were actually outcasts from the refugees who founded "the new netherese empire of the south". Freedom in research is a dangerous thing (in our world and the realms)... but oh the empires it can build. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 02:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
". . . a drunkard, a thief, an assassin, and a sly wizard, their leader), are to counter a potent, widespread spell that drains the life energy of humans and humans alone in a magic-rich city."
I think I've read this story already, about two dozen times, in my slushpile reading.
Or to put it another way, Dennis: you'd best come up with something really different (different approach, plot wrinkle, intention behind the casting of that potent spell) to keep it from ending up as really cliché. Yes, I know much heroic fantasy is cliché by definition, but I mean dressing up the tropes in something fresh so as to grab the reader.
I'd ask Ed for some ideas, if I were you. Though he gets scant respect from a lot of gamers nattering online, he's the go-to "rescue guy" for a lot of writers I know.
Nah. But thanks, anyway. Just finished it. It's now in the hands of my beloved editor. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 23:52:24
and THO relayed from ED that they were not a tight nit group and thus to me would not have shared spells with each other for anyreason.
the enclave of Ioluam(mispelled Im sure) sent an assassin to kill Lord Shadow.
(not to mention that I take all splatbooks and whatever spells are in them as spell common to that area.) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 17:59:52
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I'd like to point out a minor minor minor minor minor point about he wizards of ancient netheril not knowing the limited wish and wish spells.
they could of known it, but just becuase the netherese golden age stuff does not list it, does not mean they did not know it being that all the mages that did know it could of died out and the scrolls that they were on turned to dust or eaten.
just saying..
-Well, the stuff in Netheril: Empire of Magic was supposed to be all they knew, however unlikely. |
| A Publishing Lackey |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 16:11:54
". . . a drunkard, a thief, an assassin, and a sly wizard, their leader), are to counter a potent, widespread spell that drains the life energy of humans and humans alone in a magic-rich city."
I think I've read this story already, about two dozen times, in my slushpile reading.
Or to put it another way, Dennis: you'd best come up with something really different (different approach, plot wrinkle, intention behind the casting of that potent spell) to keep it from ending up as really cliché. Yes, I know much heroic fantasy is cliché by definition, but I mean dressing up the tropes in something fresh so as to grab the reader.
I'd ask Ed for some ideas, if I were you. Though he gets scant respect from a lot of gamers nattering online, he's the go-to "rescue guy" for a lot of writers I know.
|
| Baleful Avatar |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 16:04:51
I suspect that we'll gain more insight by asking Ed again about some of the followup points and matters that have arisen in this thread. Anyone want to jaunt over to the Chamber of Sages and ask him directly?
It would seem a better way to proceed than things are heading. (I, too, am tired of personal opinion being reposted, repeatedly.)
We might even learn more about Netheril.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 05:00:00
Just check your PM, A Gavel.
----
On a slightly different note, my editor just asked me to write a fantasy short story for one of next year's anthologies. The premise: a band of 4 fugitives (a drunkard, a thief, an assassin, and a sly wizard, their leader), are to counter a potent, widespread spell that drains the life energy of humans and humans alone in a magic-rich city. The spell is like the phaerimm's lifedrain, however, it came into existence not by intention, but by an experiment of certain beings that went haywire. I say "certain beings" because I haven't yet decided who they would be, and I haven't yet thought of what means the unseemly heroes could use to counter it. Kinda running out of fresh ideas. I still have a "hangover" after finishing a GLBT novel and two short stories for Christmas. Usually, I phone my editor to brainstorm, but he's in a convention; so no luck. Thoughts, anyone? |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 04:56:01
I'd like to point out a minor minor minor minor minor point about he wizards of ancient netheril not knowing the limited wish and wish spells.
they could of known it, but just becuase the netherese golden age stuff does not list it, does not mean they did not know it being that all the mages that did know it could of died out and the scrolls that they were on turned to dust or eaten.
just saying..
(why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own fame and power) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 04:48:29
Okay, I think the topic of who posted what, when, has been adequately covered.  |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 03:36:20
Well said, A Gavel. It shouldn't need saying, but . . . well said, anyway. (In my ferrying of posts to Ed, via e-mail, I also inevitably preserve posts, Dennis.)
Baleful Avatar's correction is (ahem) correct. The enclave-ruling Netherese archwizards before the Fall, not "the Netherese" as a people.
Dennis, you commented to me (and Ed): "Hmmm. That makes the archwizards look like fools. They knew the effects of undeath magic yet they would still use it to counter the lifedrain?"
Perhaps to you it makes them look like fools.
I echo Ed: they are NOT a cohesive group, no matter how often you speak of them as such. They are fiercely independent individuals, rivals - - and they look TO ME (and I hold my opinion to have just as much weight as yours) to be magical experimenters who were experimenting with magic, often foolishly/recklessly, before the lifedrain . . . and experimenters who were experimenting with increasing desperation as the lifedrain effect unfolded.
I suspect, from all I've heard and read from Ed over the years, that his views on this are very close to mine, but if you want to ask him more specific questions on this, be my guest, and I'll relay them and we'll see what he has to say.
I believe Ed, who created Netheril and its enclaves and ruling archwizards, not to mention the Phaerimm and the lifedrain, was trying to tell a story about the effectiveness of a cohesive group (in this case, the Phaerimm) surprise-attacking a divided foe (the Netherese). I also think Ed's entire intent with Netheril was: A) to provide a lost "golden age" of human magic that spells, artifacts, etc. could "come from" but not be easily reproduced in the Realms of "today;" and B) to provide a past example of human decadence/folly to match the elven decadence/folly disasters, to say something larger about the dangers of placing self-interest above shared/societal needs/security/foresight. Or to put it less formally, what happens when those with power stop caring about anything else but their power.
Ed has talked about this in several GenCon seminars over the years, as well as far more often with his home players (including me). So it isn't as if he's just considering what's being debated in this thread for the first time, now...
love,
THO |
| A Gavel |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 03:19:54
And you've just illustrated what I was posting about, Dennis.
You say: "Reread my post. That wasn't addressed to you, but to THO/ED."
and you add:
"Sometimes it helps to read a post word for word, specially the heading, so you know whom is being addressed."
Agreed, but the post I was responding to, the one you deleted that was posed before Malcolm's, did not have a THO/Ed header on it.
You posted.
Malcolm responded to it.
You deleted the post he responded to, and reposted THE SAME WORDS after him, but added a THO/Ed header to it.
I was responding to your original post. You now SEEM to be telling me not to say anything in this thread because your post wasn't addressed to me, but specifically to THO and Ed. Except that the post I was responding to did not have that address on it.
That's what I meant about being honest in these threads.
If you did this sort of thing in my courtroom, I'd cite you for contempt. Because that's exactly what it is, and why I spoke up (posted). I usually just lurk and read, but when I feel someone REALLY crosses the line, I speak up.
I feel you have. Particularly when you tell anyone else to "read a post word for word," when I see a pattern on your part of ignoring (or twisting; see straw men in my earlier post) points made by others against your point of view.
So play fair.
 |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 05:12:41
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Sure, they did try. I just don't think they tried using undeath magic. NO ONE saves a burning house by igniting more flames.
-As mentioned by Broken Helm, yeah, when fighting large scale forest fires, smaller, controllable fires are indeed set to prevent the larger, uncontrolled one from getting larger. To put it in a context of the discussion here, in theory, necromancy could have been applied with the caveat that it would've been their, reversible necromancy, as opposed to the then-unknown magics of the Phaerimm.
-But, to get our discussion back on track, here, Ed/THO stated that the Netherese did indeed "borrow" the magic that they observed among other races- meaning that, in theory, they would have had access to Wish spells, or at the very least, the concept of magical spells that could rewrite reality like Wish spells do- meaning they'd have a suitable dispellant (is that a word?) for the Phaerimm's resistant lifedrain. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 04:42:07
quote:
Originally posted by A Gavel
"Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I never said any of those."
Reread my post. That wasn't addressed to you, but to THO/ED. Malcolm's post just happened to be in between. And frankly, I didn't even read his post before I deleted my original post and edited it. Now, I don't normally feel like explaining myself why I use delete and repost instead of "edit," but it seems like I have to this time. Editing a post takes awhile to "complete." I don't know if it's my browser or what, but that's the case. So I just delete the original and post the edited one, and of course, to avoid confusion, I always write the name of the person whom it is addressed to.
Sometimes it helps to read a post word for word, specially the heading, so you know whom is being addressed.
It never was my goal to "win" all arguments. If you happen to read my posts in other threads you'll notice that time and again I concede, stand corrected, or simply agree to disagree. But not this time. And I see no reason why a scribe shouldn't be "allowed" to argue with the Realms' creator, when the creator himself ANSWERS to a higher being, or beings, and what he says MAY be altered or revoked even without his knowledge, which as he claimed, happened to him in the past. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 04:40:12
I'm really not liking the turn this thread has taken... It's going in a bad direction, I think, and I don't want to see it headed that way. |
| Baleful Avatar |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 04:26:30
Quote:
Originally posted by Dennis:
"the archwizards look like fools. They knew the effects of undeath magic yet they would still"
- - -
Yep. Sure looks like collective terminology to me.
(Actually, to split hairs here, A Gavel, Ed didn't say Dennis was referring to the Netherese before the fall as cohesive etc. etc. Ed said Dennis was referring to the Netherese archwizards [I'm going to go out on a limb here and add: by which Ed means the Netherese mighty mages who are the rulers of enclaves] before the Fall as cohesive etc. etc. Which is certainly the impression I got, from post after post Dennis made in this thread and others. And yes, some of those posts have vanished, but I saved them too.)
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| Broken Helm |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 04:18:54
I suppose Dennis isn't going to appreciate this, but as a sometime volunteer firefighter and a paid, fully-trained professional one for a few years, too, I have to point out that we often fought the really big fires by starting smaller ones to burn out areas and deprive the big fire of fuel, so it'll die when it reaches our firebreak.
So, yeah, sometimes you DO fight fires by tossing fuel at them. Just sayin.' |
| A Gavel |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 04:14:43
"Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I never said any of those."
What? 
Just because you've now deleted some posts wherein you did say those things, that doesn't mean you "never" said them!
I know better, because I save these threads as Word docs. So let's keep this debate honest, okay? Here at the Keep, it should never be about "winning" arguments, it should be about figuring out and finding out more about the Realms.
I'm with Malcolm: when we get lore from Ed, take it as canon and go from there, don't argue with the man. The Creator *cough* of the Realms.
(And why did you delete your post between THO and Malcolm, just to repeat yourself AFTER Malcolm? He was responding to you.)
And don't beat straw men. Ed did NOT say that you said that "Telamont and his empire today are almighty and peerless?" He said that you were speaking from a viewpoint of the Netherese before the Fall as being (cohesive and) almighty and peerless, which is quite different. Having read many posts from Ed and heard him speak on the topic a time or two over the years, I strongly suspect he, too, sees no fun in portraying any character as "peerless, invulnerable, and all too mighty."
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| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 03:53:32
THO/Ed,
Hmmm. That makes the archwizards look like fools. They knew the effects of undeath magic yet they would still use it to counter the lifedrain? Maybe if someone yells, "Help! Our house is burning!" I might as well shout back, "Grab some wood, paper, plastic, anything that's flammable and throw it right in!"
When did I say that the Netherese were a cohesive unit? When did I say that Telamont and his empire today are almighty and peerless? Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I never said any of those. The independence of the (pre-Fall) Netherese was one of their “interesting” traits. Internal conflicts are equally interesting as the external ones. And Telamont? I like the bastard, but I wouldn't be so predisposed to the idea of making him peerless, invulnerable, and all too mighty. Where's the fun in that? |
| Malcolm |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 03:51:24
You're still posting about the archwizards as a group, Dennis. It seems to me, reading and rereading Ed's words in the post above your latest one, that Ed has several times now made the point that they were rivals of each other, pursuing their own paths to ever-greater mastery of magic...NOT cohesive.
Yet time and again you post about them in collective terms. I think you're entirely missing Ed's point.
And I disagree that it makes them look like fools. * I * think it says that some of the archwizards bailed out, some were desperate enough to try ANY magic, before the end, to defeat the lifedrain, and some of them were fascinated experimenters (which is, after all, what they'd spent their lives being).
You're still confusing your opinions and judgments with "right" and any other view or behavior as wrong or foolish.
Perhaps Ed DID mean to portray every archwizard as a fool. That's his right, after all; his world, his characters, his kingdom, his story.
When he posts about it, I listen to the man.
That's just basic respect. Ahem.
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