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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's not at all obvious. We have an explicit spell description from the same person who invented the phaerimm and who said they were using that spell.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's not at all obvious. We have an explicit spell description from the same person who invented the phaerimm and who said they were using that spell.

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-And, as I've contested, the spell description doesn't entirely match what was actually happening, hence my believing that the Phaerimm were augmenting it in some way. Here is the spell, as written:

"Use of this mighty spell is thought to have created much of the lifelessness at the heart of the vast desert Anauroch. This spell affects only water in geographical form (lakes, rivers, oceans), or in meteorological form (rain, snow). It does not affect water contained in living things.

A lifedrain spell destroys water within its area of effect- and prevents water from existing in the area of effect: Water cannot fall into, form within, condense within, or flow into the spherical area of the effect of this spell.

Living creatures find conditions within the area of effect to be very, very dry- uncomfortably so; For each turn that one spends performing any sort of activity except simple rest, that creature loses 1 HP due to dehydration. Plants cannot grow within a lifedrain spell field- and desert-like conditions soon occur.

A lifedrain cannot be affected by dispel magic or water magics: only a limited wish or more powerful spell can destroy it. Otherwise, it lasts for 1 year per level of the caster."

-Starting off with just one singular difference here, it is canon that the Netherese, for all their unparalleled magical might, had trouble simply "finding" the spell, even after they realized that their crops were not simply dying, and the land succumbing to "random desertification", and that there were some shenanigans going on. By the rules, a Detect Magic spell, or something similar, but stronger, should detect the spell- nothing in the spell's description, as written above, accounts for being able to "hide" from such magical inquiries. Yet, it did. We have an instance of the spell(s) 'behaving' in a manner that the physical description says nothing about. What does this tell me? The Phaerimm, as they were casting it, were augmenting it.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't recall reading anywhere that the Netherese couldn't find the spell. If they truly couldn't detect it, then I'll accept the premise that the phaerimm were augmenting it. But I don't see how we can assume anything beyond that.

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Originally posted by Dennis


Even if wish spells were not yet invented during the time of Netheril, I think the Netherese's magical level should have been more than enough to counter an 8th level spell.

I agree with LK. Besides, 'twas I who first quoted that in my review. If it were that simple to detect or dispel lifedrain, the archwizards wouldn't have needed to co-operate, and could have just worked on their own to effectively eradicate such spell. Note, too, that those phaerimmn were all "adult," judging by their size (8 feet long), and thus means they were capable of casting spells up to highest level of their class, and 8th was hardly the highest.

I'd like to hear Ed's thoughts about this...so I'm bringing this to his thread.

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Originally posted by Dennis


Even if wish spells were not yet invented during the time of Netheril, I think the Netherese's magical level should have been more than enough to counter an 8th level spell.

I agree with LK. Besides, 'twas I who first quoted that in my review. If it were that simple to detect or dispel lifedrain, the archwizards wouldn't have needed to co-operate, and could have just worked on their own to effectively eradicate such spell. Note, too, that those phaerimmn were all "adult," judging by their size (8 feet long), and thus means they were capable of casting spells up to highest level of their class, and 8th was hardly the highest.

I'd like to hear Ed's thoughts about this...so I'm bringing this to his thread.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Throw in that they were sneaky bastards and may have even developed a means to tap into using the mythallars to power said items and attached them to the Netherese cities such that whereever they went they ruined things [snip]

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Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all! Thank you, Joran, and rest assured, I'll reply as soon as I can.
I bring Ed’s reply to Dennis, re. this: “Hi, Ed! We have this discussion in a different thread about the phaerimm's lifedrain and the Evereskan mythal...
We learned from The Return of the Archwizards trilogy that one of the factors that weakened Evereska's mythal was the phaerimm's lifedrain. Other than the Sharn Wall, has there been a known counterspell to it ever since? Did the High Mages of Evereska even attempt to create it? Some might think that given that several archwizards, including Lady Polaris and Karsus himself, and most probably Ioulaum and Larloch, too, had tried to unravel the secrets of the lifedrain---and failed, what chances did the High Mages have at success? But I say it's still worth the try, considering that it was their city which was at stake. Then again, mayhap they couldn't have spared even a single wizard researching on a counterspell when every one of them was direly needed to foil the attacks of the phaerimm armies...
Candlemas was able to create a spell that countered the lifedrain's effects to his crops. But it was unknown whether such spell was effective only to specific plants or to all kinds, since he died before he could fully make use of it. Also, as far as I can recall, it didn't counter the lifedrain's effects on the land itself.
Serreg, an archwizard featured in King's First Flight from the Realms of the Arcane anthology, after decades of doggedly researching on the "blight" that ruined Netherese lands, finally "detected" its cause. However, he was stopped by three phaerimm, depriving us of seeing whatever counter-spell he must have invented. Given that he alone was not enough to fight three of the many phaerimm that cast the lifedrain, it's safe to say that whatever it was he invented to dispel the lifedrain would have been useless after all.”

Here’s Ed’s response:



Hi, Dennis. A lot of questions, so for clarity, let me take them one at a time, as they appear:


“Other than the Sharn Wall, has there been a known counterspell to it ever since?”

If you mean known to me and a handful of TSR or WotC designers and editors and fiction writers, and known to a very few individuals in the Realms, the answer is “yes.”
If you mean known to most spellcasters in the Realms, the answer is “no” (but then, most spellcasters in the Realms know of the lifedrain magic, as opposed to its desert effects, only from legend and hearsay, not specifics).
NDAs, thanks to not-yet-told tales and Realmslore, constrain me from a full answer here, but I can go this far: there are several known counterspells, both divine and arcane.
One of the arcane countermagics is a necromantic spell that attacks the lifedrain effect itself by overloading it with unlife; this spell consumes undead, usually zombies and skeletons, to derive sufficient power to manage the overloading. This spell was crafted by a known Realms NPC who shared it with others, whereas most of the alternative counters to lifedrain are known by a lone creator or a pair or trio of individuals who worked together to develop that counter.


“Did the High Mages of Evereska even attempt to create it?”

Yes, but their initial attempts failed because they misunderstood the precise nature of the threat. The phaerimm were using the lifedrain spell (yep, the same one I wrote, that was published in only slightly simplified form; wordcount considerations always trim my careful, lawyer-like, long-because-exhaustive spell descriptions into much shorter writeups that unfortunately allow for misunderstandings, confusion, and misinterpretations) under the direction of a wise senior phaerimm who’d developed a second spell that drew on the power of Evereska’s mythal to prolong and extend each lifedrain cast, AND used the mythal itself to try to conceal that power drain. This was successful in misleading the Evererskans about the mythal connection for too long for them to rescue it, once realization dawned.


“Some might think that given that several archwizards, including Lady Polaris and Karsus himself, and most probably Ioulaum and Larloch, too, had tried to unravel the secrets of the lifedrain---and failed, what chances did the High Mages have at success?”

A common misapprehension to modern real-world thinkers: if this great government or that great corporation couldn’t do X, what chance does Johnny in his basement have? The truth is that it’s almost ALWAYS Johnnies in their basements who make the big breakthroughs; the corporate staff techs and scientists (and for that matter, staff game designers) are best at developing or redeveloping new or old ideas, and bringing them to market. The High Mages had little chance of success because they recognized the true nature of the threat too late, were already too busy with other concerns and threats to deal with it properly, and were too few to counteract the phaerimm’s responses to their counter magics.
Now, an ignorant commentator (even, perhaps, a sage) in the Realms might well think and voice the sentence you’ve posted here, illustrating the “if the mighty couldn’t do it, what chance do these lessers have”? thinking that this usually holds true in non-magical military confrontations (note the Serreg situation Rob King created in his short story: Serreg alone against three phaerimm; it’s no coincidence that many military strategists strive to get three units against one unit of an enemy, to “ensure” victory). However, in this case, said reasoning is based on ignorance of all relevant details of the situation. No, Ioulaum and Larloch DIDN’T try to understand or counter the lifedrain, and it’s erroneous to think that they “probably” would try, because it’s based on an incorrect view that the unified phaerimm faced a unified foe. The whole point I was driving home in my creation of Netheril and Cormanthyr and their histories was that civilizations (elven and dwarven, not just human) invariably fall when they become groups of arrogant “me first” individuals pursuing their own selfish goals or interests or passing whims, rather than placing a primary value in living and working together, as a team/cohesive society. Netheril was doomed to its fall because of its decadent squabbling and internal power battles, and (with a few exceptions) its survivors have largely flourished since then by learning the lessons of unbridled hubris. Even the self-styled Princes of Shade have learned caution and to work behind the scenes to make victory likely, before open confrontations.
Back then, Ioulaum and Larloch weren’t so wise. They saw Evereska as doomed and not worth aiding, preferring to pursue their own plans and interests, and simply withdrew and abandoned Evereska.


“But I say it's still worth the try, considering that it was their city which was at stake. Then again, mayhap they couldn't have spared even a single wizard researching on a counterspell when every one of them was direly needed to foil the attacks of the phaerimm armies...”

Almost all Evereskans of the time would agree with you that developing countermagic to then lifedrain was worth the effort, to rescue their city. And yes, by the time they really started to tackle the problem (by starting to understand it, after their initial spell-efforts yielded very puzzling results), they were too busy fighting a war on their doorsteps to have time and spellcasting power (numbers of mages working countermagics) to succeed. However, your second sentence reveals (“they couldn’t have spared”) your view of the Evereskans as operating under a unified command, which certainly wasn’t the case.
It’s nearer the truth to see the situation at the time as akin to a man running down a street full of mansions in a gated modern real-world community shouting that “There’s a forest fire, right over the fence! It’ll be here in minutes! Get out! Get out while you still can!” . . . and some of the people in those houses can’t even hear him through their walls and the movies on the big-screen TVs they’re dozing in front of, some ignore him as “some crazy shouting in the street outside” or phone the police to “come get the shouting madman who somehow got into our community,” others say, “Another forest fire? Well, the last one came nowhere near here, so pfffft!” and only a few heed - - and of those few, some start to argue about the judgment of the shouting man, because they know more about forest fires than he ever will, others take the view that just staying in their modern mansions and waiting it out is the safest thing to do because their mansions are new and big and specially built, and the relative handful who DO take the shouting man seriously disagree as to what to do, but in any case find most of their neighbors will ignore or dispute any orders they give.
And whereas a forest fire’s fuel and driving factors can be clearly understood and are fairly simple, the phaerimm were numerous, well-prepared to counter resistance, and had a huge head start in multiple attacking magics. The walls of a strong castle can hold back a handful of unarmed men, but can fall swiftly before an army of armed, experienced titans.


“Candlemas was able to create a spell that countered the lifedrain's effects to his crops. But it was unknown whether such spell was effective only to specific plants or to all kinds, since he died before he could fully make use of it. Also, as far as I can recall, it didn't counter the lifedrain's effects on the land itself.

You recall correctly; Candrelmaskur’s spell doesn’t inhibit or stop or fight the effects of lifedrain on any area.
Candrelmaskur saw that the lifedrain was leaching moisture from the land, and that it was some sort of massive, ongoing magical effect. He decided that investigating the cause of the lifedrain and determining its specifics so as to develop a counter to it would take far too long to rescue his crops, and was therefore a project for later, after his crops had been rescued. So he crafted a spell that translocated waters from a small lake he’d augmented with compost and minerals he knew the plants needed, aerated this water into mists, and delivered them to his crops. The spell is effective in aiding almost all sorts of plants, because almost all sorts of plants benefit from getting oxygen to their roots (fungi crops won’t be aided much by this spell).


“Serreg, an archwizard featured in King's First Flight from the Realms of the Arcane anthology, after decades of doggedly researching on the "blight" that ruined Netherese lands, finally "detected" its cause. However, he was stopped by three phaerimm, depriving us of seeing whatever counter-spell he must have invented. Given that he alone was not enough to fight three of the many phaerimm that cast the lifedrain, it's safe to say that whatever it was he invented to dispel the lifedrain would have been useless after all.”

No, it’s not safe to say that at all. :}
Serreg’s crafted magic was ultimately useless because he didn’t survive to pass it on to others to use, not because it wasn’t effective. THO was quite correct to decry your logic here. You are correctly underlining that the phaerimm were numerous and concerted enough to effectively deal with those who resisted them, but that says nothing at all about what or how puissant that resistance might have been, if had been properly mounted. If you’d said “As it turned out, Serreg’s counter-spell was lost and had no effect,” that would be correct. But your wording is “would have been useless after all,” meaning his counter-spell would have been ineffective no matter what happened, which is untrue. If Serreg had lived and freely and swiftly distributed his counter-spell, it would have been VERY effective if cast widely, reversing lifedrains and ending this particular phaerimm threat almost as swiftly as the threat struck.
The phaerimm succeeded because of discipline in maintaining stealth during their massive “overkill” of lifedrain spellcasting, and linking the prolongation of those magics to the various wards, mythals, and mythallars of their target locations, so the impact of the draining was unstoppable by the time it was noticed - - whereupon the phaerimm were ready in numbers to kill or foil the relative few (like Serreg) who tried to stop the lifedrain effect.


Oh, and to comment in passing on another matter in his thread: no, the writer isn’t non-North American (it certainly isn’t Terry, who needs no writing help from me!), and it would be unprofessional to reveal the writer’s identity.


So saith Ed. Who is busy busy busy again.
love,
THO

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Originally posted by Dennis


Even if wish spells were not yet invented during the time of Netheril, I think the Netherese's magical level should have been more than enough to counter an 8th level spell.

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Originally posted by The Hooded One

I have to disagree with you here, Dennis: "Though the Netherese dabbled with undeath magic, I'm not sure if any archwizard would have been open to the idea to use it against the lifedrain."
I've talked to the TSR designers who approved the original tale of Karsus, and they made it pretty clear that it was supposed to be about the consequences of having quite a few archwizards (Karsus just being in the lead, not unique) who would dare ANYTHING to further their aims/whims/ambitions/curiosity. Uncaring of repercussions: known, suspected, and unknown.
So I'M sure quite a few archwizards would have been open to the idea.
love,
THO

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Gotta agree with THO; I don't see why, in theory, no one would've tried.

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Originally posted by A Gavel

"Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I never said any of those."

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Originally posted by Dennis

Sure, they did try. I just don't think they tried using undeath magic. NO ONE saves a burning house by igniting more flames.

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