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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 18:05:32
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I've noticed that more than a few Demon Princes have beefs against actual gods. For example Grazzt, after betrayal from Raxivort routinely sends assassins to Pandemonium to take him out. Isn't he afraid of reprisal from a much more powerful being?
Also he's imprisoned Waukeen ... Both of them are no mere Demigods... So what gives?
Perhaps Demon Princes that have significant worshipers do indeed rival gods...perhaps they draw power from them the way actual gods do?
Also is it safe to say that most Arch fiends aspire to reach divinity?
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Edited by - jordanz on 03 Apr 2011 18:08:38
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 18:08:47
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| Even in 1e, it is stated that the Lord of an Abyssal Plane is considered as powerful as a Lesser God in their own plane...and this goes out to any other-planar creature that is a "Lord" of some sort on their home plane. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 18:40:48
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ANYTHING that receives worship can grant spells, and most Fiend Lords are worshiped by something. What deities don't want folks to know is that they are not the only game in town - more proof that "the gods lie".
At some point, when enough Elan (spiritual energy) flows to you, an apotheosis begins (whether desired or not), and you ascend. Deities are little more then mortals who have "learned a trick or two" about how the cosmos really works (and YES, I believe all Deities are ascended mortals, but not all Gods are).
The problem is that when a being decides to create this situation - form a religion and receive worship - they create a two-way conduit, which in-itself is a weakness (they can be completely drained by it if they are not careful). This is why most fiends don't bother with this process - they do not want to be reliant on the fickleness of mortals for their power, despite the potential gains. So long as they don't create this situation (and some few have actively stamped-out worship of them), their power is their own, and is a 'constant' (which leads me to believe that demons are more likely to start cults, due to the chaotic nature of the intermittent power-source). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2011 18:42:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 18:48:44
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Grazzt does have worshippers among monstrous races, particularly lamias. He is noted as "one of the most powerful demons in the Abyss" though not quite as powerful as a true deity. Orcus, Demogorgon, Lolth (Lloth), and many other demon lords have similar power, some are indeed treated as deities.
It is safe to say that all fiends aspire to gain power and for the top tier of archfiends this basically means achieving divinity. They tend to establish cults and priesthoods to fuel their power. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 19:48:02
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Demogorgon and Orcus(4e/points of light, at least) were once primordials before being tained by the abyss; there was a point in time when they were considerably more powerful than individual(greater) gods. Graz'zt is most likely the child of Pale Night(possibly by Asmodeus), an obyrith, a being certainly possessing of god-like power.
Going strickly stats wise, and sticking to 4e, the deities given stats so far have been level 34-35 solos(bosses). This includes Vecna, Lolth, and Bahamut. The demon lords statted, Graz'zt, Orcus, and Demogorgon, have been level 32, 33, & 34 solos, respectively. So they're certainly in comparable realms of power. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 20:56:10
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| Here is a reversal question I have to ask, are there any known Celestial beings that have trapped/slain/defeated evil gods/powerful demons? I think it might put it in perspective if there was a comparative to match against. Sorry if this is kind of meandering off-topic a tad, but I was curious seeing this thread if there were any such Celestial beings that are the equivalent of said Demon/Devil Lords? Trying to exclude gods from this for I think we know gods have the power to do just about anything within their realm of influence. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 21:01:32
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It really depends on who is writing about the topic since it varies wildly even within a given edition.
Some have made them just powerful monsters and not on the level of gods. Some have made them gods in their own right. Some have made them equivalent to gods on some level. Some (myself included) give them what amounts to a home field advantage in their home plane, wherein they're as or more powerful than some or all gods, but much less powerful outside of their native plane.
For instance, multiple archfiends have destroyed entire worlds on their own. Pale Night was capable of blatantly ignoring Lolth's restrictions on teleport within Lolth's own divine domain. The yugoloths destroyed at least one deity. Prince Levistus forcibly shrank Set's divine domain within Stygia. Etc.
Yet other authors have made archfiends essentially cower in front of even relatively minor gods. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 21:38:00
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Shemmy, you of all people should know how to handle those inconsistencies.
Fiends lie, and Celestials lie more, and the Gods lie worst of all. 
But seriously, I can think of precise examples of what you are saying, and I think it goes like this - the Fiend-lords have been around a LONG time, MUCH longer then most deities. It's all a game they play.
When Cyric (or whoever) shows up and starts bossing one around, they cower and whimper and say "Yassa, massa", and then secretly behind their backs snicker to one-another and say (psionically) "get a load of the god-of-the-month... ain't he just precious?"
They know how to play the game, better then anyone, and they know they will be around long after that deity is floating in the astral. Fiends have their own agendas, and are far too busy to go to war with a god (who have endless allies and assets at their disposal), especially considering its all a waste of time, because all they need do is bide their time and wait, and that deity will turn to dust, eventually.
So yeah, sometimes they cower and grovel, and sometimes they stand up for themselves (and even kill deities), but it all depends on what will serve them best at that time. That is what fiends have more of then even 'the gods'.... TIME.
At the end of the Movie Constantine, Lucifer healed the main character... to give him more time, knowing full well that time was on his side. Eventually, everyone screws up... even Gods.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2011 21:38:56 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 21:49:28
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| As the saying goes, "Gods are transient, but devils are forever." |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 22:29:52
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I dont know, I personally think the average god should last longer than the average archfiend, especially a demonlord. All that treachory and backbiting is sure to catchup with them sooner or later.
Also many gods have servants that are on par with Demon Lords or are even gods themselves. How many Demon Prnces can say that?
It would make sense that Demonlord are more powerful at home but anything over a lesser god status(powerful enough in it's own right)seems dubious to me. I just dont see Grazzt or DEMOGORGON beating a god like TEMPUS -home plane or no. But I could be wrong...Asmdeous took out Azuth - a lesser god on his own plane - but could he have done that without the weave unraveling? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 23:21:11
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| -I'm wholly in favor of the way Planescape did it, where deities are deities, and that's all fine and nice, but they aren't the be all, end all- assorted Demon Lords, Archdevils, Primus, Yugoloth Generals, Archelementals, Archfey, and so on are on the equivalent power levels. Most importantly, to me at least, is that those things aren't specifically deities. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 23:42:33
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| Personally I really don't like the idea that just because a being receives worship they gain power. For me gods are divine and it's through this divinity that they convert worship into power. Devils and demons are just powerful entities, they don't have the divine spark needed to use any praise offered to them. Greater gods far outrank even the most powerful demon lord or arch devil IMO. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 23:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Personally I really don't like the idea that just because a being receives worship they gain power. For me gods are divine and it's through this divinity that they convert worship into power. Devils and demons are just powerful entities, they don't have the divine spark needed to use any praise offered to them. Greater gods far outrank even the most powerful demon lord or arch devil IMO.
The outer planes are realms of belief, and the sum total of mortal belief can and does shape its very landscape and the beings that dwell there. Gods aren't exempt from that feature, and in some ways they may personify it. While the abstract notions of Evil, Good, Law, Chaos, and Neutrality exist regardless of mortal belief (and their earliest exemplars existed prior to mortals and gods alike), gods never existed prior to mortal worship. The first gods were literally brought up from nothing by the mass of blind, yet sincere mortal faith.
Some archfiends crave the power that mortal worship can bring, but others eschew it out of hand (like Grazzt), viewing it more like a liability than a boon. Mortal faith can grant power, but it also makes you beholden to that same belief. If it dies (as illustrated by one god the 'loths murdered by corrupting the faith of their worshippers over generations) so do you.
Mind you, I really dig the Planescape conception of the topic, and it continues to influence me in D&D stuff (including Pathfinder stuff where thematically applicable). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 00:25:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Personally I really don't like the idea that just because a being receives worship they gain power. For me gods are divine and it's through this divinity that they convert worship into power. Devils and demons are just powerful entities, they don't have the divine spark needed to use any praise offered to them. Greater gods far outrank even the most powerful demon lord or arch devil IMO.
The outer planes are realms of belief, and the sum total of mortal belief can and does shape its very landscape and the beings that dwell there. Gods aren't exempt from that feature, and in some ways they may personify it. While the abstract notions of Evil, Good, Law, Chaos, and Neutrality exist regardless of mortal belief (and their earliest exemplars existed prior to mortals and gods alike), gods never existed prior to mortal worship. The first gods were literally brought up from nothing by the mass of blind, yet sincere mortal faith.
Some archfiends crave the power that mortal worship can bring, but others eschew it out of hand (like Grazzt), viewing it more like a liability than a boon. Mortal faith can grant power, but it also makes you beholden to that same belief. If it dies (as illustrated by one god the 'loths murdered by corrupting the faith of their worshippers over generations) so do you.
Mind you, I really dig the Planescape conception of the topic, and it continues to influence me in D&D stuff (including Pathfinder stuff where thematically applicable).
I still don't like it.
Gods should be the only ones to gain power from worship. I don't remember Ao saying that beings other than the gods should have this ability. If you allow it then the whole thing becomes unworkable. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 00:29:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I still don't like it.
Gods should be the only ones to gain power from worship. I don't remember Ao saying that beings other than the gods should have this ability. If you allow it then the whole thing becomes unworkable.
Mind you, Ao can set the local rules within Realmspace. Out on the planes, it's another matter entirely. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 00:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I still don't like it.
Gods should be the only ones to gain power from worship. I don't remember Ao saying that beings other than the gods should have this ability. If you allow it then the whole thing becomes unworkable.
Mind you, Ao can set the local rules within Realmspace. Out on the planes, it's another matter entirely.
Granted |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 01:30:48
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Why should archfiends necessarily be eternal? Fiends die all the time; and most die permanently. Beating up an archfiend means more than just a century of binding, they lose face and they lose a little power ... if it happens too often they'd probably become weaker than their competitors and eventually reincarnate in a diminished form. They probably fear loss of power more than death.
Shemmy hit it on the nose: accepting mortal faith adds another dimension to a fiend's power - but it also brings mortal weaknesses. The fiend must maintain worshippers, is constantly reshaped by their belief, is vulnerable to their death. Since fiends are attracted to power, a fiend who gains more power also gains more enemies.
Ao is overgod of Realmspace but not the cosmos, he has been known to serve higher order entities. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Apr 2011 01:40:42 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 04:34:49
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Fiends gain power from harvested souls. I don't see devils gaining power from the worship, but from the acts that their "worshippers" perform. When they sacrifice intelligent beings, when they get their worshippers to sacrifice their own... when they help corrupt others into signing deals with devils.
I don't believe anyone mentioned this, but Gods only obtain power from one "world". A god that exists in Forgotten Realms and say Greyhawk are two seperate gods, by the same name. Is this the same with Devils?
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 04:41:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I don't believe anyone mentioned this, but Gods only obtain power from one "world". A god that exists in Forgotten Realms and say Greyhawk are two seperate gods, by the same name. Is this the same with Devils?
Sadly this depends on the edition of the game. Prior to 3e they were the same entities. 3.x waffled on the topic. In some cases it was clear that some gods were clearly worshipped on multiple worlds, but it differed if they were different planets in a common Material plane as in 1e and 2e, or if it was different material planes which caused really big continuity issues. It kinda sidestepped the issue where it could. 4e I don't have a clue, but since it retconned the cosmology, there's probably no assumed or implied link to any other cosmology than the Faerunian version of PoL. It's a mess. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 06:57:53
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| I remember, was either in the Book of Vile Darkness or the Fiendish Codex that mentioned that while all of the Lords of the Nine recieved some worship, it was Asmodeus who granted the divine energy for all clerical prayers cast by all of their followers. Need to get my copies mailed down to me sometime so I can double check on that. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 10:37:23
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| I like the 2e take where fiends support disbelief in gods rather than aspiring to become one. Then Gargauth is unique, and fiendish cults function quite differently than other religions in the Prime, they can't grant clerical spells. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 16:16:09
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| I imagine deities/entities who are worshipped across many worlds are largely constrained by "local" rules on each one. They probably can't shift a surplus of faith energy from one sphere/plane to another, they might be able to imbalance worlds but not the cosmos. In Realmspace they must abide by Ao's decrees. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 19:11:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
4e I don't have a clue, but since it retconned the cosmology, there's probably no assumed or implied link to any other cosmology than the Faerunian version of PoL. It's a mess.
I would agree with you, EXCEPT that they are now in the process of doing a multi-spheric crossover in the novel line, reconnecting everything the way it used to be (presumably like it was in planescape/2e).
So the 'waffling' has grown epic.
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I still don't like it.
Gods should be the only ones to gain power from worship. I don't remember Ao saying that beings other than the gods should have this ability. If you allow it then the whole thing becomes unworkable.
Mind you, Ao can set the local rules within Realmspace. Out on the planes, it's another matter entirely.
QFT
Each Crystal Sphere (Prime World/Solar System) has its own sentience, and that sentience (called an 'Overgod' by clueless mortals) determines what does and does not work within it's sphere.
However, we do have canon to the effect that some fiends have found a way to bypass this rule in FR, using cults. I have my own theories about how all that works, but the internet just isn't large enough for all my thoughts...... 
Its all about Sponsorship; think of cults as 'franchises'.
Also, my assumption is that there are 'flavors' of Elan (that energy that flows to and from other beings), and Fiends find plain-vanilla 'radiance' quite distasteful, by deliciously corrupted chocolate is oh-so-yummy. 
Fiends work toward tainting and corrupting mortals so that they 'taste better'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2011 19:15:58 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 06:18:04
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A couple of points:
1) Many fiends are very old. Very, very old. In many cases way older than the gods. Especially given that many gods are ascended mortals. Gods that ascended a hundred, a thousand, even 10,000 years ago are mere babes compared to some of the archfiends. In that time, the fiends have had the opportunity to consolidate resources, knowledge, networks of followers, agents, and allies--and secrets.
While the scale of an archfiend's "stats," however they are measured, may be smaller in scope and scale than a full-fledged god, it would be foolish to assume that the entirety of an archfiend's power lies in his "stats."
I'm not sure what an appropriate analogy is for "Clarke-tech" in a world of actual magic, but I am sure that many archfiends have access to secrets that make ordinary magic look like a cheap novelty toy out of a Cracker Jack box.
Orcus's use of the Last Word was a clumsy and unsubtle example of such
power. Chalk it up to his relative youth and inexperience. But some of the other fiends play the long game, and would never show their hands like that. Though be assured that some of them have access to secrets just as (if not more) powerful than that.
2) In the case of Baator and the Abyss, it's not the fiends who possess divine power, so much as the planes themselves. Each Hell and each layer of the Abyss has a divine rank of at least level 1, which can be accessed by an archfiend that bonds with the layer. This doesn't render the fiend a god, so much as form a symbiotic relationship that empowers the fiend with divine (or pseudo-divine) ability and supplies the "dumb" plane with a sentient agent to act through. I don't know what a good analogy is for this, maybe something like the Goa'uld from Stargate, V'ger from Star Trek, or Pilot & Moya from Farscape. I suspect that each plane in it's entirety (both the Abyss and Baator at least) rank the equivalent of a DVR 20 greater god, but lack a "mind" to direct and utilize that power.
I've long thought that the Abyss and Nine Hells do have a kind of hive intelligence, like a bee or ant colony. Not individually self aware or intelligent, but all the layers together (in symbiosis with their princes, lords and masters), and perhaps also each individual demon or devil, like an insect drone, contributing to a sort of communal intelligence. Not conventionally sentient--but alien intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, who, from across the silver void, regard the material plane with envious eyes, and slowly and surely draw their plans against us. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 06:25:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
4e I don't have a clue, but since it retconned the cosmology, there's probably no assumed or implied link to any other cosmology than the Faerunian version of PoL. It's a mess.
I would agree with you, EXCEPT that they are now in the process of doing a multi-spheric crossover in the novel line, reconnecting everything the way it used to be (presumably like it was in planescape/2e).
Though it appears as though they're using the 4e default cosmology retconned into everything involved as the basis for it all. My interest isn't really there at this point. Different game, different cosmology, different baseline assumptions, and a whole headache of continuity issues. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 06:33:10
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I understand completely. 
Good points all, Gray. It shoe-horns nicely with my own musings regarding planes and 'overminds'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 07:04:08
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Yes...fiends are very old; perhaps even ageless. We know that the Abyss was populated by beings far older than Demons...
So the likes of Graz'zt, Fraz-Urb'luu and others are truly without limit perhaps in what they know.
I mention Fraz-Urb'luu because he actually has the power to bend his entire plane to his will...literally reshaping it to his whim. Now THAT is power...and something that not even Greater Gods can do without seriously taxing their strength. He just DOES IT and makes it look like he is just standing there...Mountain Ranges? Done! Ocean? Done!
So, I would say that some beings are FAR more powerful than at first blush. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 08:24:54
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Not to quible, but, with certain exceptions, I don't see any real evidence to support that archfiends have more control over their layers or realms than a god. Per On Hallowed Ground p.54 "It's the home that the god has created out of the raw material of his worshipers' belief, a land so perfectly suited to its creator thatit seems an extension of the god's being -- a place that truly is the deity."
The 3e Deities & Demigods spells out the rules for godly control over their personal realms, which varies with divine rank. All gods have some degree of control over the sights, sounds, scents, temperature and environment of their realms, with greater gods having control over the planar traits of the realm including gravity, time, elemental, energy and magical traits of the land.
Certainly some gods have much greater control than others, and for some it takes longer to effect certain changes. The 3e rules seem a little less sexy when compared to the power they had over their realms implied back under 2e rules. But I wouldn't say that in general, even in 3e, that archfiends have more control over their realms than deities.
In those cases where it appears that fiends may have more control over their realms, it is not through the power of the fiend himself that such changes are enacted, but rather through the sybmbiotic link he has with his layer. Some archfiends can coax the layer itself to be unusually obedient and compliant to their will. But it's the layer itself that's doing the work, not the fiend.
However, I suspect that the celestial planes and divine realms are not any different in that respect than the fiendish planes and realms. The Seven Heavens are likely as responsive to the Hebdomad as the 9 Hells are to their dukes.
The Abyss is probably a little different from other planes in that it has so many layers that tend to bond so completely with single rulers. Being bonded to a whole layer must be different in several ways from just having a realm (one of many) in a layer. A layer is pulled in all sorts of different ways when there are so many powers with established realms; layers are no doubt less responsive to any one individual when they have many masters. And if no one person bonds to the layer, it cannot "wake up" and grant any special powers to its master. To the extent that celestial planes have fewer layers than fiendish planes, and are shared by many gods and paragons, that may explain to some extent why celestials are not thought to have as much control over their planes when compared to demons.
Note that the Great Wheel plane of Limbo, and the Great Tree plane of Warrior's Rest have the highly morphic trait which allows them to be warped and shaped not just by powers alone but those mortals and planars that have the ability. I believe that certain very powerful anarchs can shape the chaos-stuff of Limbo as adroitly as any demon can shape his own realm. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 09:05:45
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A quick perusal of Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, indicates that the Abyss has the divinely morphic trait, which means that, according to game rules, the layers can be altered the same as most any other divine plane. It does say that for the purpose of the divinely morphic trait, a demon lord counts as equivalent to a lesser god in his own plane with the power to alter his plane accordingly.
As the Prince of Deception, Fraz-Urb'luu is the patron of tricksters and illusionists. It may be that his seeming power over his own layer is partially due to illusion. However, Dalor is very correct that the codex states that at the height of his power he could "raise mountain ranges in a matter of seconds or drain bottomless seas with but a thought." But it also mentions that he was among the first tanar'ri to dominate a layer of the Abyss in the fading days of the obyrith dominion. (He was very, very old.) And it was his terrible magic staff that served as the key of his absolute mastery over Hollow's Heart. (He had access to powerful, artifact level, magic-tech.)
Which is illustrative, I think, of the fact that being very, very old, and having acquired access to epic-level magic-tech, yield certain advantages to archfiends beyond the scope of their regular abilities.
To some degree, archfiends are like Batman, whose experience, training, and smarts allows him to compete with superheroes and villains on a much higher level than ordinary mortals, even though he has no powers of his own. Not that fiends are powerless, but they can do quite a bit even without a divine rank. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:24:38
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This is why I say Godly Domain = Demi-plane = Crystal Sphere = Layer. Theoretically, each should have some sort of 'over-power' in charge of it (and able to make changes on a whim - Ravenloft's Dark Powers fit this description).
All of those fit inside a Plane (which I also theorize have 'over-powers'), and I have yet-another level called Dimensions, into which fit entire planes (there are five 'known', and one relatively unknown - Temporal Prime). Occasionally, these are referred to by scholars as 'prime planes'.
Anyhow, the point is, everything in the universe has a bit of a 'home field advantage' when it comes to inter-acting with other cosmic beings. because of Faith, deities may have more of a 'raw power' advantage over a fiend-lord temporarily, but as both Gray and I have pointed out, fiends are immeasurably experienced in all 'matters cosmic', and can afford to be even more patient then gods.
'Cults' are just one of many ways fiends have to 'neuter' a deity's power-base. I mention 'sponsorship' earlier - this is where I think certain fiendish lords make pacts with dark powers (creatures like Tiamet) that dwell within the lower planes, and the two beings split the resultant Elan (worship-energy). In affect, the fiend becomes an 'Avatar' of that deity, but only in regards to that particular cult (in other words, the god just provides 'the juice', like a silent-partner in a RW business-arrangement). By creating cults within enemy deity's primary areas of worship, you siphon-off some of their power. Fiends are brilliant when it comes to these types of tactics (gods tend to be more direct and confrontational).
Think about it - Fiend-Lords have been 'on-top' for millions of years, in a society where every other creature is 'out to get you'. you don't keep power in a situation like that for long if you aren't incredibly smart, and incredibly powerful (and by 'power', I mean all the other ways beings can be powerful, not just raw, fire-ball throwing might). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:40:58
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| The 4e demonomicon outright confirms(granted, it isn't written in third persion omnicient) that the Abyss is sentient, sapient, and very willful. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Are Demon Princes more powerful than we think?
