| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 17:30:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
A quick perusal of Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, indicates that the Abyss has the divinely morphic trait, which means that, according to game rules, the layers can be altered the same as most any other divine plane. It does say that for the purpose of the divinely morphic trait, a demon lord counts as equivalent to a lesser god in his own plane with the power to alter his plane accordingly.
As the Prince of Deception, Fraz-Urb'luu is the patron of tricksters and illusionists. It may be that his seeming power over his own layer is partially due to illusion. However, Dalor is very correct that the codex states that at the height of his power he could "raise mountain ranges in a matter of seconds or drain bottomless seas with but a thought." But it also mentions that he was among the first tanar'ri to dominate a layer of the Abyss in the fading days of the obyrith dominion. (He was very, very old.) And it was his terrible magic staff that served as the key of his absolute mastery over Hollow's Heart. (He had access to powerful, artifact level, magic-tech.)
Which is illustrative, I think, of the fact that being very, very old, and having acquired access to epic-level magic-tech, yield certain advantages to archfiends beyond the scope of their regular abilities.
To some degree, archfiends are like Batman, whose experience, training, and smarts allows him to compete with superheroes and villains on a much higher level than ordinary mortals, even though he has no powers of his own. Not that fiends are powerless, but they can do quite a bit even without a divine rank. 
I like that analogy...I mean, even Superman wouldn't fair well against Batman in his own Batcave!
That is why I like the Demon Lords and Princes. They have immeasurable power...in their home turf. Outside of that they aren't very powerful at all really when compared to their home plane self. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
 |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 17:33:08
|
quote:
Markustay
This is why I say Godly Domain = Demi-plane = Crystal Sphere = Layer. Theoretically, each should have some sort of 'over-power' in charge of it (and able to make changes on a whim - Ravenloft's Dark Powers fit this description.
Why? The conditionals should and could are not the same thing, an "infinite" multiverse must contain some number of "godless" universes which are entirely free of deific or fiendish dominion. Even if such beings can adapt into every niche of their belief-based "ecosystem" there will still be any number of places too hostile or toxic for them to survive; places without faith, without good and evil, populated by atheists or misotheists ... in short, places where the gods/fiends simply do not apply and their presence is not tolerated. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Apr 2011 17:40:02 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:37:07
|
There are.
Limbo for one.
My assumption is that there are indeed 'dead planes', where the Spheric Gaurdian (overpower) no longer exists, for whatever reason. For instance, I'm pretty sure the Overgod of Threnody isn't around anymore... what would be the point? (unless there are other, still-living worlds within that sphere).
'Cosmic Rules' are like the Pirates Code... "they're more like guidelines, really..." 
In an infinite universe, there should be an infinite number of exceptions to every rule, including Sahuagin that are afraid of water, and vampires that like to get a tan. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2011 23:38:37 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 01:51:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I like that analogy...I mean, even Superman wouldn't fair well against Batman in his own Batcave!
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 02:08:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I like that analogy...I mean, even Superman wouldn't fair well against Batman in his own Batcave!
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
 That is what I was talking about...but I didn't know he carried it around! The man don't mess around and thinks way ahead of the curve on things!
That is how I see truly powerful fiends...they think...A LOT. I mean, in their tens and hundreds of thousands of years of life...can you imagine all the things they have considered as feints, counter-feints, strategies and contingencies!
I have argued before that mortals should be able to stand against Gods and Fiends...and I hold to that...but as a DM I try to make SURE that anyone in my game that does better have his ducks in a row! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 03:39:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In those cases where it appears that fiends may have more control over their realms, it is not through the power of the fiend himself that such changes are enacted, but rather through the sybmbiotic link he has with his layer. Some archfiends can coax the layer itself to be unusually obedient and compliant to their will. But it's the layer itself that's doing the work, not the fiend.
<snip>
The Abyss is probably a little different from other planes in that it has so many layers that tend to bond so completely with single rulers. Being bonded to a whole layer must be different in several ways from just having a realm (one of many) in a layer. A layer is pulled in all sorts of different ways when there are so many powers with established realms; layers are no doubt less responsive to any one individual when they have many masters. And if no one person bonds to the layer, it cannot "wake up" and grant any special powers to its master.
There are two adventure paths for 3rd/3.5e found in Dungeon magazine, the Shackled City and Savage Tide questlines.
In the first, the player (or a player, specifically) can, if he has the right template (Sign of the Smoking Eye, gained during the adventure path) be recognised as heir to an Abyssal layer (Occipitus, which is I think the 507th). This allows them limited morphic control over the fabric of the plane. Although the previous owned (Adimarchus) was able to reshape the very fabric of the layer at a whim, the template that grants the morphic control says quite bluntly that no character of 20th level or lower should be able to consciously exert control over the layer (though unconscious control and the plane adapting itself to the player's mindset is, of course, permitted). If you happen to be of strong enough mind and body (read: epic-level), however, then the layer should respond to you as it did to Adimarchus, though there is always the danger of what happens when you're bonded to a plane (i.e. the plane begins changing you, just as you change it - so hopefully your will is strong enough to resist the plane attempting to alter you).
It's mentioned that because Occipitus is a chunk of Celestia that was tainted by the Abyss and cast free of the Seven Mounting Heavens, for any character who wishes to redeem the layer, reattach it to Celestia and free it from the Abyss, the deities of good (and law) will likely render aid in doing so. Of course, it would take a very pure soul as ruler of Occipitus in order to do this (and the Abyss, not to mention some of the demon lords and evil gods, would likely take exception to such an act as taking away one of the Abyssal layers), but it is possible.
The other is from Savage Tide, which centers around Demogorgon attempting to invade the Material Plane on a massive "tide" of energy that would allow him to ascend to something that would let him truly challenge and defeat gods, and forever dispel any question that he is the Prince of Demons and ruler of the Abyss. At its conclusion, Demogorgon can be slain, and if the players choose to try for it then one of them can attempt to inherit the title of Prince of Demons. Along with this comes bondage to the 88th Layer of the Abyss, Gaping Maw, and full morphic control over the plane. It's noted that if you have a player who gains this, then the other plane anchored to the Gaping Maw at the time (one of the components of Demogorgon's plan) can be utterly destroyed and set adrift simply by an act of will from the new Prince of Demons.
However, there is a downside - the symbiotic link between the Gaping Maw and its ruler means that the ruler will over time be forced to become more and more like Demogorgon was. I think it works out to a Will save each month or you spontaneously manifest two personalities (just like Demogorgon), and it just goes downhill from there. In killing Demogorgon, you might inherit his title and (some) power, but eventually you will become the new Demogorgon.
So there is something to be said for an Abyssal plane having a link with its ruler - it is, of course, a two way street. The Abyss (and individual layers, certainly) has its own will, and will enact that will upon the rulers of the layers. In return, the rulers of the layers (demon lords, demon princes, even gods should they happen to control a layer) gain significant power as their layer responds to their thoughts and whims. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 11:10:41
|
| There's also a sleeping being called Ulgurshek, Abyss grew around it, wonder about its relation to the consciousness of the plane. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 18:27:55
|
There is a funny little story behind that - Batman has had to use that kryptonite on 'others', and Superman was like "you carry it around?"
And Batman just smiled.
Little-known fact: Batman carries around at least one example of each (powerful) member of the JLA's vulnerabilities... just in case. Batman trusts NO-ONE.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
There are two adventure paths for 3rd/3.5e found in Dungeon magazine, the Shackled City and Savage Tide questlines.
Rarely do people get to witness the 'birth of an empire'. With those adventure-arcs, we did (and found-out just how good pre-fab modules can be!)
Kudos for mentioning them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 09:41:26
|
quote:
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
You mean "Batman just needs the writer to forget that Superman could kill him before his hand reaches his belt", right? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 15:53:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
You mean "Batman just needs the writer to forget that Superman could kill him before his hand reaches his belt", right?
Not exactly. As I recall from a past encounter, Superman could already feel the effects of the green Kryptonite ring before Batman had even placed it on his finger. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 18:55:02
|
| If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 01:46:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target.
It depends on the writer. In the instance I'm referring to, the effects of green Kryptonite rapidly weakened Superman enough to allow Batman to deliver a devastating "right hook." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:46:57
|
I think Superman is an Abyssal Lord in Disguise...his daddy lied to him in the Crystal Chamber; he is actually a Cambion Marquis and is doomed to slowly draw the Earth into the Abyss!
Kryptonite isn't actually from his native planet...it is a Holy Stone that a race of space-faring Paladins used to destroy the Demon World that they found! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 14:05:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
You mean "Batman just needs the writer to forget that Superman could kill him before his hand reaches his belt", right?
Not exactly. As I recall from a past encounter, Superman could already feel the effects of the green Kryptonite ring before Batman had even placed it on his finger.
Batman always got the best of superman because superman would not do what needed to be done. Morals always get in the way:)
(I.E he could just throw a meteor from space and destroy gotham)
Granted, without time to plan, Superman would likely win. But if forewarned, bats is just too genius for Superman.
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 16:51:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target.
It depends on the writer. In the instance I'm referring to, the effects of green Kryptonite rapidly weakened Superman enough to allow Batman to deliver a devastating "right hook."
If that were the case, Superman would be useless anytime he and Batman were in proximity. As it stands, Superman only lets Batman take him out. Superspeed or heatvision would let him take him out before his hand got remotely close to the canister with the kryptonite. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 20:41:01
|
| Don't you guys (or girls) think that you are going far too off-topic? |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 21:01:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target.
It depends on the writer. In the instance I'm referring to, the effects of green Kryptonite rapidly weakened Superman enough to allow Batman to deliver a devastating "right hook."
If that were the case, Superman would be useless anytime he and Batman were in proximity. As it stands, Superman only lets Batman take him out. Superspeed or heatvision would let him take him out before his hand got remotely close to the canister with the kryptonite.
Well, Batman is more of a Rogue anyways :)
The only time Superman and him squared off, Superman was surprised and beaten, as it should be. Bats has a contingency plan and trusts nobody. He has a plan for all supposed allies and enemies alike.
Given time to plan, Bats will find a way, just like Luther often did. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:36:28
|
I realise I'm partly to blame for this recent bout of off-topicness, so I think it only prudent that I remind those also involved that we're not here to discuss the portrayals of certain DC characters.
Let's return to the subject of Demon Princes, eh?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:53:17
|
Yeah, lets talk about important demons, like S'ym and Belasco (both of whom I've used, BTW).
Oh no! Topic convergence! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 02:51:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, lets talk about important demons, like S'ym and Belasco (both of whom I've used, BTW).
Well, now that you mention it, I did once come up with a plausible explanation for having "Inferno" play-out in the Realms -- specifically Waterdeep -- too.
Laeral made a fantastic Goblin Queen. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 18:06:16
|
Belasco was a backdrop villain for me - the PCs never really met him, but S'ym gave them some trouble.
I have Belasco as a demonlord (once human, like in the comics, but actually a Cambion) who made a play for one of the layers and was subsequently chased into Limbo (where he created an Abyss-like Domain for himself). He is also a child of Graz'zt, making him Iuz's half-brother, and like Iuz, has achieved demi-power status through the use of cults.
S'ym formed a bloodpact (ancient ritual, based on some Morcook stuff) with Ogrémoch, which makes it so no item formed of 'the earth' (including all normal minerals) can harm him.
Not sure if I want to use the tehno-virus... if anything I'd play it as something the Imaskari created to make 'instant Warforged'.
Anyhow.... yeah... Demon Lords are cool and uber-powerful, no matter what setting you yank them out of.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Apr 2011 18:08:25 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Are Demon Princes more powerful than we think?
