| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 18:05:32
I've noticed that more than a few Demon Princes have beefs against actual gods. For example Grazzt, after betrayal from Raxivort routinely sends assassins to Pandemonium to take him out. Isn't he afraid of reprisal from a much more powerful being?
Also he's imprisoned Waukeen ... Both of them are no mere Demigods... So what gives?
Perhaps Demon Princes that have significant worshipers do indeed rival gods...perhaps they draw power from them the way actual gods do?
Also is it safe to say that most Arch fiends aspire to reach divinity? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 18:06:16
Belasco was a backdrop villain for me - the PCs never really met him, but S'ym gave them some trouble.
I have Belasco as a demonlord (once human, like in the comics, but actually a Cambion) who made a play for one of the layers and was subsequently chased into Limbo (where he created an Abyss-like Domain for himself). He is also a child of Graz'zt, making him Iuz's half-brother, and like Iuz, has achieved demi-power status through the use of cults.
S'ym formed a bloodpact (ancient ritual, based on some Morcook stuff) with Ogrémoch, which makes it so no item formed of 'the earth' (including all normal minerals) can harm him.
Not sure if I want to use the tehno-virus... if anything I'd play it as something the Imaskari created to make 'instant Warforged'.
Anyhow.... yeah... Demon Lords are cool and uber-powerful, no matter what setting you yank them out of.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 02:51:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, lets talk about important demons, like S'ym and Belasco (both of whom I've used, BTW). 
Well, now that you mention it, I did once come up with a plausible explanation for having "Inferno" play-out in the Realms -- specifically Waterdeep -- too.
Laeral made a fantastic Goblin Queen. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:53:17
Yeah, lets talk about important demons, like S'ym and Belasco (both of whom I've used, BTW).
Oh no! Topic convergence!  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:36:28
I realise I'm partly to blame for this recent bout of off-topicness, so I think it only prudent that I remind those also involved that we're not here to discuss the portrayals of certain DC characters.
Let's return to the subject of Demon Princes, eh?  |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 21:01:40
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target.
It depends on the writer. In the instance I'm referring to, the effects of green Kryptonite rapidly weakened Superman enough to allow Batman to deliver a devastating "right hook."
If that were the case, Superman would be useless anytime he and Batman were in proximity. As it stands, Superman only lets Batman take him out. Superspeed or heatvision would let him take him out before his hand got remotely close to the canister with the kryptonite.
Well, Batman is more of a Rogue anyways :)
The only time Superman and him squared off, Superman was surprised and beaten, as it should be. Bats has a contingency plan and trusts nobody. He has a plan for all supposed allies and enemies alike.
Given time to plan, Bats will find a way, just like Luther often did. |
| AleksanderTheGreat |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 20:41:01
Don't you guys (or girls) think that you are going far too off-topic? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 16:51:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target.
It depends on the writer. In the instance I'm referring to, the effects of green Kryptonite rapidly weakened Superman enough to allow Batman to deliver a devastating "right hook."
If that were the case, Superman would be useless anytime he and Batman were in proximity. As it stands, Superman only lets Batman take him out. Superspeed or heatvision would let him take him out before his hand got remotely close to the canister with the kryptonite. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 14:05:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
You mean "Batman just needs the writer to forget that Superman could kill him before his hand reaches his belt", right?
Not exactly. As I recall from a past encounter, Superman could already feel the effects of the green Kryptonite ring before Batman had even placed it on his finger.
Batman always got the best of superman because superman would not do what needed to be done. Morals always get in the way:)
(I.E he could just throw a meteor from space and destroy gotham)
Granted, without time to plan, Superman would likely win. But if forewarned, bats is just too genius for Superman.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 05:02:30
I nominate Doomsday as an Armageddon Beast from GRR's Armies of the Abyss. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 04:46:57
I think Superman is an Abyssal Lord in Disguise...his daddy lied to him in the Crystal Chamber; he is actually a Cambion Marquis and is doomed to slowly draw the Earth into the Abyss!
Kryptonite isn't actually from his native planet...it is a Holy Stone that a race of space-faring Paladins used to destroy the Demon World that they found! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 03:04:30
I could've sworn I saw a topic around here someplace... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 01:46:14
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target.
It depends on the writer. In the instance I'm referring to, the effects of green Kryptonite rapidly weakened Superman enough to allow Batman to deliver a devastating "right hook." |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 18:55:02
If Superman can see you, he can kill you. Realistically, eye-beams would/should be impossible to dodge. Them missing means the person firing them literally failed to look directly at the target. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 15:53:45
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
You mean "Batman just needs the writer to forget that Superman could kill him before his hand reaches his belt", right?
Not exactly. As I recall from a past encounter, Superman could already feel the effects of the green Kryptonite ring before Batman had even placed it on his finger. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 09:41:26
quote:
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
You mean "Batman just needs the writer to forget that Superman could kill him before his hand reaches his belt", right? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 18:27:55
There is a funny little story behind that - Batman has had to use that kryptonite on 'others', and Superman was like "you carry it around?"
And Batman just smiled.
Little-known fact: Batman carries around at least one example of each (powerful) member of the JLA's vulnerabilities... just in case. Batman trusts NO-ONE.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
There are two adventure paths for 3rd/3.5e found in Dungeon magazine, the Shackled City and Savage Tide questlines.
Rarely do people get to witness the 'birth of an empire'. With those adventure-arcs, we did (and found-out just how good pre-fab modules can be!)
Kudos for mentioning them. |
| Quale |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 11:10:41
There's also a sleeping being called Ulgurshek, Abyss grew around it, wonder about its relation to the consciousness of the plane. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 03:39:56
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In those cases where it appears that fiends may have more control over their realms, it is not through the power of the fiend himself that such changes are enacted, but rather through the sybmbiotic link he has with his layer. Some archfiends can coax the layer itself to be unusually obedient and compliant to their will. But it's the layer itself that's doing the work, not the fiend.
<snip>
The Abyss is probably a little different from other planes in that it has so many layers that tend to bond so completely with single rulers. Being bonded to a whole layer must be different in several ways from just having a realm (one of many) in a layer. A layer is pulled in all sorts of different ways when there are so many powers with established realms; layers are no doubt less responsive to any one individual when they have many masters. And if no one person bonds to the layer, it cannot "wake up" and grant any special powers to its master.
There are two adventure paths for 3rd/3.5e found in Dungeon magazine, the Shackled City and Savage Tide questlines.
In the first, the player (or a player, specifically) can, if he has the right template (Sign of the Smoking Eye, gained during the adventure path) be recognised as heir to an Abyssal layer (Occipitus, which is I think the 507th). This allows them limited morphic control over the fabric of the plane. Although the previous owned (Adimarchus) was able to reshape the very fabric of the layer at a whim, the template that grants the morphic control says quite bluntly that no character of 20th level or lower should be able to consciously exert control over the layer (though unconscious control and the plane adapting itself to the player's mindset is, of course, permitted). If you happen to be of strong enough mind and body (read: epic-level), however, then the layer should respond to you as it did to Adimarchus, though there is always the danger of what happens when you're bonded to a plane (i.e. the plane begins changing you, just as you change it - so hopefully your will is strong enough to resist the plane attempting to alter you).
It's mentioned that because Occipitus is a chunk of Celestia that was tainted by the Abyss and cast free of the Seven Mounting Heavens, for any character who wishes to redeem the layer, reattach it to Celestia and free it from the Abyss, the deities of good (and law) will likely render aid in doing so. Of course, it would take a very pure soul as ruler of Occipitus in order to do this (and the Abyss, not to mention some of the demon lords and evil gods, would likely take exception to such an act as taking away one of the Abyssal layers), but it is possible.
The other is from Savage Tide, which centers around Demogorgon attempting to invade the Material Plane on a massive "tide" of energy that would allow him to ascend to something that would let him truly challenge and defeat gods, and forever dispel any question that he is the Prince of Demons and ruler of the Abyss. At its conclusion, Demogorgon can be slain, and if the players choose to try for it then one of them can attempt to inherit the title of Prince of Demons. Along with this comes bondage to the 88th Layer of the Abyss, Gaping Maw, and full morphic control over the plane. It's noted that if you have a player who gains this, then the other plane anchored to the Gaping Maw at the time (one of the components of Demogorgon's plan) can be utterly destroyed and set adrift simply by an act of will from the new Prince of Demons.
However, there is a downside - the symbiotic link between the Gaping Maw and its ruler means that the ruler will over time be forced to become more and more like Demogorgon was. I think it works out to a Will save each month or you spontaneously manifest two personalities (just like Demogorgon), and it just goes downhill from there. In killing Demogorgon, you might inherit his title and (some) power, but eventually you will become the new Demogorgon.
So there is something to be said for an Abyssal plane having a link with its ruler - it is, of course, a two way street. The Abyss (and individual layers, certainly) has its own will, and will enact that will upon the rulers of the layers. In return, the rulers of the layers (demon lords, demon princes, even gods should they happen to control a layer) gain significant power as their layer responds to their thoughts and whims. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 02:08:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I like that analogy...I mean, even Superman wouldn't fair well against Batman in his own Batcave!
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt.
That is what I was talking about...but I didn't know he carried it around! The man don't mess around and thinks way ahead of the curve on things!
That is how I see truly powerful fiends...they think...A LOT. I mean, in their tens and hundreds of thousands of years of life...can you imagine all the things they have considered as feints, counter-feints, strategies and contingencies!
I have argued before that mortals should be able to stand against Gods and Fiends...and I hold to that...but as a DM I try to make SURE that anyone in my game that does better have his ducks in a row! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 01:51:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I like that analogy...I mean, even Superman wouldn't fair well against Batman in his own Batcave!
Batman doesn't need the Batcave... just the green Kryptonite ring he carries in his utility belt. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 23:37:07
There are.
Limbo for one.
My assumption is that there are indeed 'dead planes', where the Spheric Gaurdian (overpower) no longer exists, for whatever reason. For instance, I'm pretty sure the Overgod of Threnody isn't around anymore... what would be the point? (unless there are other, still-living worlds within that sphere).
'Cosmic Rules' are like the Pirates Code... "they're more like guidelines, really..."
In an infinite universe, there should be an infinite number of exceptions to every rule, including Sahuagin that are afraid of water, and vampires that like to get a tan. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 17:33:08
quote:
Markustay
This is why I say Godly Domain = Demi-plane = Crystal Sphere = Layer. Theoretically, each should have some sort of 'over-power' in charge of it (and able to make changes on a whim - Ravenloft's Dark Powers fit this description.
Why? The conditionals should and could are not the same thing, an "infinite" multiverse must contain some number of "godless" universes which are entirely free of deific or fiendish dominion. Even if such beings can adapt into every niche of their belief-based "ecosystem" there will still be any number of places too hostile or toxic for them to survive; places without faith, without good and evil, populated by atheists or misotheists ... in short, places where the gods/fiends simply do not apply and their presence is not tolerated. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 17:30:20
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
A quick perusal of Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, indicates that the Abyss has the divinely morphic trait, which means that, according to game rules, the layers can be altered the same as most any other divine plane. It does say that for the purpose of the divinely morphic trait, a demon lord counts as equivalent to a lesser god in his own plane with the power to alter his plane accordingly.
As the Prince of Deception, Fraz-Urb'luu is the patron of tricksters and illusionists. It may be that his seeming power over his own layer is partially due to illusion. However, Dalor is very correct that the codex states that at the height of his power he could "raise mountain ranges in a matter of seconds or drain bottomless seas with but a thought." But it also mentions that he was among the first tanar'ri to dominate a layer of the Abyss in the fading days of the obyrith dominion. (He was very, very old.) And it was his terrible magic staff that served as the key of his absolute mastery over Hollow's Heart. (He had access to powerful, artifact level, magic-tech.)
Which is illustrative, I think, of the fact that being very, very old, and having acquired access to epic-level magic-tech, yield certain advantages to archfiends beyond the scope of their regular abilities.
To some degree, archfiends are like Batman, whose experience, training, and smarts allows him to compete with superheroes and villains on a much higher level than ordinary mortals, even though he has no powers of his own. Not that fiends are powerless, but they can do quite a bit even without a divine rank. 
I like that analogy...I mean, even Superman wouldn't fair well against Batman in his own Batcave!
That is why I like the Demon Lords and Princes. They have immeasurable power...in their home turf. Outside of that they aren't very powerful at all really when compared to their home plane self. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:40:58
The 4e demonomicon outright confirms(granted, it isn't written in third persion omnicient) that the Abyss is sentient, sapient, and very willful. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 13:24:38
This is why I say Godly Domain = Demi-plane = Crystal Sphere = Layer. Theoretically, each should have some sort of 'over-power' in charge of it (and able to make changes on a whim - Ravenloft's Dark Powers fit this description).
All of those fit inside a Plane (which I also theorize have 'over-powers'), and I have yet-another level called Dimensions, into which fit entire planes (there are five 'known', and one relatively unknown - Temporal Prime). Occasionally, these are referred to by scholars as 'prime planes'.
Anyhow, the point is, everything in the universe has a bit of a 'home field advantage' when it comes to inter-acting with other cosmic beings. because of Faith, deities may have more of a 'raw power' advantage over a fiend-lord temporarily, but as both Gray and I have pointed out, fiends are immeasurably experienced in all 'matters cosmic', and can afford to be even more patient then gods.
'Cults' are just one of many ways fiends have to 'neuter' a deity's power-base. I mention 'sponsorship' earlier - this is where I think certain fiendish lords make pacts with dark powers (creatures like Tiamet) that dwell within the lower planes, and the two beings split the resultant Elan (worship-energy). In affect, the fiend becomes an 'Avatar' of that deity, but only in regards to that particular cult (in other words, the god just provides 'the juice', like a silent-partner in a RW business-arrangement). By creating cults within enemy deity's primary areas of worship, you siphon-off some of their power. Fiends are brilliant when it comes to these types of tactics (gods tend to be more direct and confrontational).
Think about it - Fiend-Lords have been 'on-top' for millions of years, in a society where every other creature is 'out to get you'. you don't keep power in a situation like that for long if you aren't incredibly smart, and incredibly powerful (and by 'power', I mean all the other ways beings can be powerful, not just raw, fire-ball throwing might). |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 09:05:45
A quick perusal of Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, indicates that the Abyss has the divinely morphic trait, which means that, according to game rules, the layers can be altered the same as most any other divine plane. It does say that for the purpose of the divinely morphic trait, a demon lord counts as equivalent to a lesser god in his own plane with the power to alter his plane accordingly.
As the Prince of Deception, Fraz-Urb'luu is the patron of tricksters and illusionists. It may be that his seeming power over his own layer is partially due to illusion. However, Dalor is very correct that the codex states that at the height of his power he could "raise mountain ranges in a matter of seconds or drain bottomless seas with but a thought." But it also mentions that he was among the first tanar'ri to dominate a layer of the Abyss in the fading days of the obyrith dominion. (He was very, very old.) And it was his terrible magic staff that served as the key of his absolute mastery over Hollow's Heart. (He had access to powerful, artifact level, magic-tech.)
Which is illustrative, I think, of the fact that being very, very old, and having acquired access to epic-level magic-tech, yield certain advantages to archfiends beyond the scope of their regular abilities.
To some degree, archfiends are like Batman, whose experience, training, and smarts allows him to compete with superheroes and villains on a much higher level than ordinary mortals, even though he has no powers of his own. Not that fiends are powerless, but they can do quite a bit even without a divine rank. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 08:24:54
Not to quible, but, with certain exceptions, I don't see any real evidence to support that archfiends have more control over their layers or realms than a god. Per On Hallowed Ground p.54 "It's the home that the god has created out of the raw material of his worshipers' belief, a land so perfectly suited to its creator thatit seems an extension of the god's being -- a place that truly is the deity."
The 3e Deities & Demigods spells out the rules for godly control over their personal realms, which varies with divine rank. All gods have some degree of control over the sights, sounds, scents, temperature and environment of their realms, with greater gods having control over the planar traits of the realm including gravity, time, elemental, energy and magical traits of the land.
Certainly some gods have much greater control than others, and for some it takes longer to effect certain changes. The 3e rules seem a little less sexy when compared to the power they had over their realms implied back under 2e rules. But I wouldn't say that in general, even in 3e, that archfiends have more control over their realms than deities.
In those cases where it appears that fiends may have more control over their realms, it is not through the power of the fiend himself that such changes are enacted, but rather through the sybmbiotic link he has with his layer. Some archfiends can coax the layer itself to be unusually obedient and compliant to their will. But it's the layer itself that's doing the work, not the fiend.
However, I suspect that the celestial planes and divine realms are not any different in that respect than the fiendish planes and realms. The Seven Heavens are likely as responsive to the Hebdomad as the 9 Hells are to their dukes.
The Abyss is probably a little different from other planes in that it has so many layers that tend to bond so completely with single rulers. Being bonded to a whole layer must be different in several ways from just having a realm (one of many) in a layer. A layer is pulled in all sorts of different ways when there are so many powers with established realms; layers are no doubt less responsive to any one individual when they have many masters. And if no one person bonds to the layer, it cannot "wake up" and grant any special powers to its master. To the extent that celestial planes have fewer layers than fiendish planes, and are shared by many gods and paragons, that may explain to some extent why celestials are not thought to have as much control over their planes when compared to demons.
Note that the Great Wheel plane of Limbo, and the Great Tree plane of Warrior's Rest have the highly morphic trait which allows them to be warped and shaped not just by powers alone but those mortals and planars that have the ability. I believe that certain very powerful anarchs can shape the chaos-stuff of Limbo as adroitly as any demon can shape his own realm. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 07:04:08
Yes...fiends are very old; perhaps even ageless. We know that the Abyss was populated by beings far older than Demons...
So the likes of Graz'zt, Fraz-Urb'luu and others are truly without limit perhaps in what they know.
I mention Fraz-Urb'luu because he actually has the power to bend his entire plane to his will...literally reshaping it to his whim. Now THAT is power...and something that not even Greater Gods can do without seriously taxing their strength. He just DOES IT and makes it look like he is just standing there...Mountain Ranges? Done! Ocean? Done!
So, I would say that some beings are FAR more powerful than at first blush. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 06:33:10
I understand completely. 
Good points all, Gray. It shoe-horns nicely with my own musings regarding planes and 'overminds'. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 06:25:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
4e I don't have a clue, but since it retconned the cosmology, there's probably no assumed or implied link to any other cosmology than the Faerunian version of PoL. It's a mess.
I would agree with you, EXCEPT that they are now in the process of doing a multi-spheric crossover in the novel line, reconnecting everything the way it used to be (presumably like it was in planescape/2e).
Though it appears as though they're using the 4e default cosmology retconned into everything involved as the basis for it all. My interest isn't really there at this point. Different game, different cosmology, different baseline assumptions, and a whole headache of continuity issues. |
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