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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 10:32:58
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That's true, most evident in the first article on FR gods in Dragon 54. Most people dislike the real world analogies, to me the real world mythology is an incredible source of ideas, so much potential I can't ignore. The story that they interloped through portals is not that appealing, I'd rather have Toril as Earth-2 or something. So I changed that to a version where the Planescape pantheons existed in the past, e.g. Helm was once Heimdall, Sune Venus, Gond Goibniu, Umberlee the daughters of Aegir and Ran, Lathander Baldr reborn etc.
The Green Man is good for an universal name, I use the Tree Ghosts (like the Uthgardt totem) for Silvanus, but he's kinda dead, shattered into a sun-spirit collective. His Summeroak realm is now a giant mound/tumulus in the Deep Wilds. Going with the ''fey are fading'' or ''burning away'' theme. His original attribute was ''of the Infinite Branches'' representing both the tree and sun. Succellus is one of the local Talfiric names, altered by Chondathan (Roman) cultural influences.
As for the hunter archetype, I used ''Carntul'' as a proto-indoeuropean version Cernunnos, to imply the carnivore origins. I don't buy that concept where one god attacks the other and births a god of war, it's all human-centric, how the religions developed. E.g. Carntul's faces would be from Paleolithic to the medieval times. Starting with the Beast, or a pack like the Deragoth from Malazan or Moonshae's the Pack, then the spearman, Mesolithic bowman, Neolithic more like the Pathfinder's Erastil (losing influence to the gathering, more feminine), then to the medieval times like a noble sporting hunter type. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 17:31:41
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Just FYI, I'm incorporating some of this into my own ongoing game: I'm working on introducing a new proto-power in the Realms, using a bit of MTs Fey lore, and other stuff I've extrapolated from it. Building on Mt's idea of Cor' and Gru' as sons of Titania: What if there were 6 'children' of hers that came to the Realms with the Eladrin: Corellon, Gruumsh, Araushnee, Shehanine, Baghtru, and 'Herne'. What would this do to the history of the Seldarine, if these 6 (or whatever others) were the only 'True Fey' powers to come to Faerun, where did the rest of the Seldarine originate? My answer is simple: They are either powers which already existed in the Realms when the Copper Elves arrived and began worshipping them (Rillifane- who may have been a member of the Treant pantheon and Earavan- whom I see as an aspect of Hlal, actually) or they were elves that underwent apotheosis AFTER coming to the Realms (with Solonor and Fenmarl likely ascending prior to the arrival of the Eladrin).
Now, I picked those 6 b/c of their relevance to my current campaign, but you could as easily flesh out the group with different names, as I can easily see Earavan or Aerdrie as fey powers, but TBH, the rest seem very Farunian to me. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 19:15:50
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Been studying my fathers (!) Changeling tomes and wanted to bring some of the stuff to attention.
The Fey realms in WoD is called the Dreaming and is made from the stuff of mortal dreams. Its has been so for so long that all things imagined exist in it somewhere, and its has grown bigger ever since the first dream of man. The Dreaming is a realm of strangeness that exist alongside the mortal realms, and is interwoven with it and can be stronger in places (and at certain times) making it reflect reality in a magical way.
The Dreaming can be devided into the Near Dreaming, the Far Dreaming and the Deep Dreaming. These hold subsequently more fantastic elements the further one travels into the Dreaming and away from the real "mundane" world. The Near Dreaming is almost like a reflection of the mundane near it, but suffused with more intense colors, smells and more fantastic features. Tangible emotions make for example fear almost visible, "bigger" weather effects cause storms to become more dangerous and pain can be exaggerated to unimaginable levels. The further one travels the more these aspects become pronounced, the deeper one is going into the Far Dreaming. The Deep Dreaming is thought to be wholly unstable realm of the imagination, maleable towards the deepest desires and dreams of those that travel it. It is a highly dangerous place because those travelling the Deep Dreaming without very stable minds will lose their sanity in the process of meeting their deepest and darkest dreams.
Furthermore there are multiple ways to enter or travel through the (Near) Dreaming. These are devided in Freeholds, Glades and Trodes. Freeholds are manufuctured places in the mundane world that break down the veils between the Dreaming and the mundane world. Examples are an abandoned Victorian mansion that is magnificent Sidhe castle in the Dreaming, or a storefront that houses a hearthfire tavern for changelings. Glades are the natural counterparts that capture the collective dreams to make them more fey (think of a hidden lake, a grassy hill or pebble beach). Trodes are a webway of "feyroads" that connect freeholds, glades and particular places within the Dreaming. Some trodes even wind into the Far or Deep Dreaming to make those travelling hopelessly lost. Each important trode has a thing called the Silver Path, and this is an uncannily stable road that bends through the Dreaming and gives its travellers some kind of protection against the madness of the less savoury parts of the Dreaming. Some trodes have the opposite of a Silver Path, a Wild Portal, that will drop travellers of in unexpected directions within the Dreaming.
I hope to return soon with some examples of what a Freehold can look like in the realms.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 21:25:51
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Thank you for relating all of that, Bladewind. I will have to look back into that stuff myself - lots of good material to mine there. 
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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Please, MT- wander where you will. I'm finding all of this fascinating. Not quite following all of it, but it's fascinating none-the-less. And let us not forget, most of these FR gods were/are inspired/drawn from RW gods in the first place. Can't really separate the two without being detrimental to the Realms, now can we?
My ideas are a constantly evolving thanks to the wonderful input of people like Quale and Gray, and everyone else here in this community. Almost nothing I think of hasn't been inspired by someone else's thoughts on the matter, so I take very little credit, aside from trying to organize everything in how it relates to everything else. I consider myself more of a Chef - I take the ingredients others have grown and create new dishes with them. But without those ingredients, the chef is nothing.
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Originally posted by Quale
Looking the Changeling and Dark Ages wiki, surprising how is it similar the concepts I had for the fey, like the soul merging and emotions.
I read through that stuff long ago - I have a few of the books from that system - the lore is phenomenal! (Although I found the system itself not suited to my needs - I haven't played with 'grown-ups' in a VERY long time). You, I and it seem to be all on the same page, so it must be fairly obvious path of conclusions to draw, me thinks. Fey are quite literally 'the stuff of dreams'; I even borrow from Neverending Story for my model... Shar would be 'The Nothing'.
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Originally posted by Quale
yea, I guess it belongs in the Arcane, a way to record and adapt outsider magic to the prime, tough not all is of the language primeval, only the elder runes. The runetongue that Mintiper speaks would be too powerful.
Absolutely - most Runes we see today are are just pale reflections of the True Runes they are based upon. Elder (Eldritch) Giants and Dwarven Runelords keep those secrets from human hands.
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Originally posted by Quale
Faerun means ''one land'' in canon, I think the fey words have at least double meanings.
It has two canon meanings - the other is 'Cradle of Life'. I'm trying to merge them with my Olde Fey language: In that extremely ancient tongue, the direct translation would be 'life holder', so 'holder' can mean 'cradle' if one were to put the emphasis on the nurturing aspect, or it could mean 'land', if one were to take it literally as 'the region where life takes place'. 'Holder/Receptacle' can be taken differently depending upon what syllable you put accent on, but in either case it means something akin to 'a place where life can happen' (its a Fey concept, and doesn't translate precisely into human English).
The word 'Fey' can mean many things, but to the Shide (now called Le'Shay by silly {French?} Humans) it means 'the One people' - it is a reference to all the varied beings that make up the Fey. If capitilized, it is a reference to the race, but in their language the lower-case form would simple be the number '1'.
See what I did there? Now both translation of Fey'Rūn work for the same original name for Toril's main continent. When other races asked the Elves (newly arrived from Faerie) what it meant, different groups simply translated it differently.
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Originally posted by Quale
well, I keep fey restricted to the european mythologies, Ki or Ninhursag could easily fit with the Earthmother, but for that area I use Tiamat, there were two ancient pantheons in my history, one from Azlant, the other from Lomarnu (Lemuria analog) where gods of the lost creator races were worshipped, and the Sumerians were survivors from that sunken civilization.
I haven't yet figured-out how many proto-pantheons I want, but I do make the assumption that many human gods are the same power (human pantheons having come much later then many others). I'm not taking the actual being from those mythologies, but rather saying that deity is an aspect of another (Fey) power. If you look closely at every world religion, they all incorporate the concept of small nature-spirits that remain mostly unseen by mortals, who can be bribed with small offerings, and can be angered by breaking taboos (which can be many things, depending on the 'spirit' in question). Its a fairly universal concept - all I'm doing is running with the Norse pantheon's own premise that their are a few Fey mixed into human pantheons everywhere.
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Originally posted by Quale
It could work that way, personally I don't follow canon that much. My story is that before the current Faerunian pantheon there were local RW-PS pantheons, then Ragnarok, Avatar Crisis, Dawn Cataclysms and Titanomachies happened and what was left became the Faerunian/human pantheon, the Fey powers bound themselves and merged with the gods, fey aren't religious, they did not have gods only the best among them.
We are on the same page here - I do not follow canon religiously, I bend it and twist it to suit my needs (and only rarely break it entirely if I feel it just doesn't make sense). The Fey don't really look at gods the way mortals do (being originally immortal themselves) - they look at them in much the way Faerunians would perceive Chosen (Uber-powerful individuals, but still of the same core being as them). So fey are not intimidated at all by a god's divinity, but rather by its shear power (which Fey can literally feel and see). I think this is why the Imaskari had the attitude they did - they learned it from the Le'Shay (and its canon that they did receive 'teachings' from the Fey). Divinity is just another level of power, to both the Fey and Imaskari; something to aspire to, not to grovel before.
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Originally posted by Quale
to me it was the fey, but that was before planets and gods, only the ethereal. Of the creator races the batrachi should be the first, logically. Of the current gods, Shar and Selune, but personally they became gods much later.
Shar & Selune became 'gods' after they both sacrificed (Shar unwillingly) their 'Primordialness' to create the Weave (and its consciousness, Mystyl). They went from being what I used to call 'Archtypes' (and have renamed Ordials recently), to being 'gods'. As for the Fey, see my comments above. the LeShay would probably laugh at human notions of divinity (as would any Planer being) - although some have ascended to the (power) level of deities, they do not act the way one would expect 'gods' too, and their Fey adherents treat them more like royalty then beings to be worshiped.
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Originally posted by Quale
That part about the Ur-Flan is one of a few things I stole from GH for FR. They are the same to me, just pick one, Tharizdun, Moander, Jubilex etc.
Don't know why, but I like to still keep Jubilex separate. I think of him having more of the same relationship with 'The Dark God' as Kezef has with Malar: rather then being subsumed by that greater power, it serves them instead (which benefits both - the lesser power keeps its autonomy, and the greater power does not need to expend one of its Avatar-slots to maintain an alias). Just my take, is all - nothing canon of course.
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Originally posted by Quale
Maybe Jergal's appearance is what he will look like at the end of time, being the fatalistic type, I pictured a story where the Great Race of Yith (Lovecraft's) made a pact with Jergal to incarnate as spellweavers in the future after predicting their destruction from the flying polyps (sharns). They'll be a part of the Far Realms hegemony at the end of time, opposed to the race of destiny.
I am totally out of my element when it comes to Cthulhu and aberrations - I'll have to Wiki that stuff.
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Originally posted by Quale
There's also Ygorl, who looks like the grim reaper. I've connected the 'loths with rakshasas rather than any creator race. They are a fake creator race, of light and the dark, the grand illusion, the Maya, the sixth element.
Loths and Rakshasa? not the way i would have went - sounds interesting.
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Originally posted by Quale
I'm glad you post here, the eldritch and word magic part is something I forgot to use, now I know how my Demiplane of Shadow, the Ethereal and my three inner planes interact. Note that this thread is not about canon, whatever crazy theory is welcomed.
Thanks - a lot of these threads give me a place to jot-down ideas I've had for awhile, and sometimes I forget them and wind-up searching the web for my own ideas! (using the threads as path to the concept I had - I can usually remember enough about the discussion to find the original thread, even several years later).
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That's true, most evident in the first article on FR gods in Dragon 54. Most people dislike the real world analogies, to me the real world mythology is an incredible source of ideas, so much potential I can't ignore. The story that they interloped through portals is not that appealing, I'd rather have Toril as Earth-2 or something. So I changed that to a version where the Planescape pantheons existed in the past, e.g. Helm was once Heimdall, Sune Venus, Gond Goibniu, Umberlee the daughters of Aegir and Ran, Lathander Baldr reborn etc. <snip>
Ed was providing us with a 'model' for a concept - the actual names of RW gods should never be used (IMHO). As we have been discussing, there a couple of dozen 'Archtypes' for deities, and all can stem from them (with little, local nuances to make them more regional). Similar deities in each sphere would all have to answer to a single 'higher power' (as even Ao did); they may not even be aware of this - beings at that level would rarely dean to interfere unless it was absolutely necessary (otherwise, what would be the purpose of having all these deities tending to the individual worlds if the 'Elder God' had to micro-manage things himself?) These deities may not even be aware of this 'pecking order' (newer ones like Cyric certainly wouldn't).
You could even say that the deities were just avatars themselves of these 'Elder Gods', but at these levels of power that's just splitting-hairs; once you start getting DvR's there is almost no difference between Avatars and 'created beings'. In fact, even on the mortal level this happens all the time - mostly with powerful magical items (they attain self-awarenss), but its even happened in the case of one long-lasting illusion that I am aware of. A state of energy in-motion creates the perfect medium for consciousness to form, and magical energy is no exception. The more power, the more-likely the 'thing' will develop its own mind. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 19:20:30 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 18:21:43
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The places in Fearun that come to mind that fit the freehold definition WoD gives have all been mentioned afore in this thread. Evermeet is a exceptionally large one, so is Evereska but I consider only certain physical holdings to actually lead to or be coterminous with the Feywild. These places need some sort of feywild anchor (in Wod these are called hearthfires) to weaken the veil between the Feywild and the natural world. In Evermeet Amluiriels mythal in the crystal palace in Leuthilspar has this function, and the Queen of Elves has a strong tie to Arvandor because the Seldarine provide her with the means to anchor the Island of Elves to their divine home. The close ties the Feywild has to the plane of Dreams is an effect that helps obfuscate the isle from non-fey eyes.
I think the High Forests ancient Pale Tree is another excellent candidate for a Fearunian freehold, as it is likely governed by some kind of noble eladrin who guards the place and provides safe passage for fey hunters who like to hunt for sport on Fearun. Perhaps this Pale Tree is but one of the many multiversal hunting lodges that Oberon the great Hunter created for his own amusement. By anchoring part of his fiery spirit within a mighty tree (thus creating a great duskwood of 210 ft high that blossoms as he is about to perform his famed great hunts), Oberon brought about a permanent link (a silver path if you will) between his Feywild home and Fearuns abundant hunting grounds. The Pale Tree can, with Oberon or Titania's permission , be used as a nexus for travelling via the Feywild to distant freeholds on Toril or even those on far away natural worlds (such as Greyhanwks Oerth or Birthrights Aebrynis).
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Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 19:44:24
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The way I see it, fey have vastly different power-levels, going from an almost pre-life form (I have it where Will-O-Wisps are proto-fey), to deific-levels.
Depending upon the level of the Fey in question it should be easier for them to access the feywild the higher level they are. My suggestion would be for some sort of 'sliding-scale'. Assume that Toril usually has a strength 20 'force-field' (we call it 'The Weave'). For each level a Fey is (and you count ECL here), you subtract '1' from the die roll you need to beat on a D20 to 'cross the veil'. So a level 5 fey would need to roll a 16 or better to cross-over. Attempts can be made only once per 24 hours.
'Places of Power' can also add a benefit; for instance, a 'faery ring' (toadstools) can give a being a +1, a, 'Ęlven Glade' can give a +2, a Plinth (stone) Circle can give a +3, etc...
Then you can give another benefit dependent upon the type of fey and time of day. Seelie fey would get an additional +1 bonus for attempting to cross during the day, and unseelie would get the bonus at night (and I suppose they would get a -1 for trying to cross during the other's cycle). members of the Twilight (neutral) Court would only get the benefit at the time of sun-up and sundown, which is limiting, but they would get no subtraction for trying to cross at other times (thats the balancing factor).
This is not meant to be rules, but rather a set of guidelines - Fey NPCs should be able to cross whenever the DM needs them to. Since a Fey PC would be extremely rare, for most groups these guidelines would be meaningless. I just cobbled this together on-the-fly, so I'm sure it's full of holes, but you get the idea. Basically all I did was give a good reason why less-powerful fey would congregate on or near a 'place of Power' (PoP?).
Oh.... and throw-in another +1 for being on a Leyline (Faery Path), which of course lead to places of power. I suppose that means a Fey entering a Fairy Ring from a Leyline would get a +2 (it really is just a rule-of-thumb). In that way, not only is the location where transference is attempted matter, but also direction (which ties everything into eastern philosophy nicely).
Just more of my random thoughts... don't mind me...
EDIT: Ack! I rambled on and didn't really respond to the post above - sorry. To bring this into the discussion a bit more, the way I see the lore Bladewind is talking about working is that certain parts of the Feywild become cotermonious at different times, and this also gives a BIG bonus to Fey trying to cross (so some fey may travel for hundreds of miles to get to very infrequent Terminus Point).
This is where the rules go out the window and it becomes entirely the DMs province of what kind of bonus, how long the planes remain coterminous, and how long an interval between the planes becoming coterminous (some may happen once a month, while others may happen only once every thousand years!) My only suggestion would be that the longer the interval between Cotermity (is that even a word?!), the longer the 'doorway' remains open. I would also suggest the bonus be fairly large (automatic success?), and be greater in the case of infrequent Cotermity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 19:54:02 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 20:42:42
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Excactly!
The Retreat might have been influenced by the cotermity (I'm ok with that word, alignment has too many other meanings in D&D) of Fearie. The Feywild being at its most distant point (planar wise) from Fearun, caused Elves to become increasingly distressed by their removal from their home plane. Their being is more in tune when they live closeby a fey freehold, so their mundane exodus by ship to the Isle of Elves gives them some inner rest on arrival within Evermeets mythal. They might not be aware of this effect because of the millenia of life on Toril.
Evermeets disappearance into the Feywild in the 15th century Realms is evidence that eladrin largely seek to live in a Feywild-like environment. The Spellplague and the weaves sundering (or perhaps the passing of Abeir) also caused Fearun to become closer to the Feywild. For an eladrin this means less inner turmoil, and because of this newfound innner peace with themselves, they are even able to Feystep due to an increased link between the two realms. Or perhaps they actively tracked the (Near) Feywild and because they refound its secret trodes or feyroads their mobility in the mundane natural world of Toril is greatly increased over short distances. |
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Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 22:43:34
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Perhaps Elves are a little like Superman (or Superman 4.0... I think).
It is canon that Elves can draw sustenance from sunlight. This will actually sustain them for short periods when they are without food or water (and possibly breathable air, and sleep... but I will get to that).
If we take this a step further, perhaps Elves are actually getting sustenance from Radiant energy! Sunlight contains many wavelengths of energy, visible light being merely the one we are most familiar with. So in a magical (D&D) universe, sunlight would also contain waves of Radiant Energy. On most prime material worlds this would be in only small doses, hence their inability to sustain themselves for long periods of time on it. But what if Faerie has an abundance of this energy? What if the theoretical 'fey Energy' is nothing more then Radiant energy that is more readily available within the Feywild?
In a magical world, no-one but the most dedicated Sages would even understand the actual science behind it - all anyone would know is that Fey are naturally MUCH more powerful within the Feywild. This is why life/nature literally 'runs amok' within the Fey Realms.
So Eladrin should be immortal, but the diluted radiant energy they get in the Mortal World isn't enough to allow them to live beyond a thousand years or so. This is why so many Prime Fey try to live as close to the Feywild Terminus Points, and travel great distances when they open - its like a feeding-frenzy. They need periodic doses of the purer radiant energy else they dwindle.
Because Evermeet was literally a piece of the Feywild pulled into the prime, accessing those energies was all the easier for the Eladrin of the isle (and we can tie this into 'Elven High Magic' - I never liked how 3e just made it elf-specific epic magic). High magic directly taps-into the same font of power that deities do, and that is why it is so potent. Also, Elves on Evermeet have been able to live far past 'the call' (death), so this also ties-in.
And going with the superman analogy again, we could have worlds with 'red suns', that give-off very little or no radiant energy, leaving the fey weak and powerless. This may even be what Kiaransalee did to her homeworld - she may have made some sort of bargain with a shadow-power to block-out the sunlight (leaving the Elves of her world dessicated husks).
By the same token, their could be worlds where the sun is young and vibrant, and gives off more of this life-sustaining radiant energy - the Elven homeworld and Feyspace would be two great candidates for Crystal spheres with this type of setup.
And taking this even a step further, we can easily relate this to FR's own lore - darkness is the force that blocks-out the energies needed for life. Fey-blooded beings (including Elves) are much more sensitive to these 'dark spots', and would avoid them at all costs.
Now I've gone and made Fey Terminus Points the opposite of Magical Dead Zones... but that sorta makes sense, eh?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 22:47:23 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 23:55:00
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In WoD the Fey Energy is called Glamour (which is described by their mages as Quintessance). Without it a Changeling fey loses his "magic" to Banality (Mortal Disbelief) and risks becoming mundane; with too much Glamour they risk Bedlam, a form of insanity. So in D&D even fey are susceptible to seeking too much of radiant energy - even the chaotic elves need some sort of balance in a source of their vital life force.
Your mention of Threnody combined with this idea of Bedlam made me think about the darker side of fey magic and why the sun elves needed to evacuate their home, Tintageer. I imagine the destruction of Tintageer could have been caused by unfettered radiant energy, perhaps by the unchecked growth of a sun like celestial body. It could also have been their massive use of radiant energy when using high magic in their eons long attempt to shape their realm into the elves utopia.
The tendancy for elven high magic to go awry might be linked to the chaotic nature of radiant energy and arcane scholars lack of knowledge of it.
Ack! There's so much lore to consider here! I'll try to make sense of the Dark Crystal myth and how it too could be seen as an Unseelie freehold firehearth. The crystal acts like some sort of natural mythal i.e. its a focus point or sacred stone of an Unseelie glade. Hmmm, time to open up some more tomes! |
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Druidic Groves
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 05:46:47
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Minor correction, Markustay: I believe Abeir-Toril, not Faerun, means "Cradle of Life."
I'm a bit late w/this, but early on the 1st page of this thread, Quale asked for not juss ideas, but also sources (FR or not) about all things Feywild.
Neverwinter Nights-OC has an example of this, when the PC has to travel to the Realm of the Spirit to save the Spirit of the Wood (in the Neverwinter Wood, so it qualifies as lore for your 'North' campaign, Quale). The PC has to kill himself in order to go to the 'other side,' and thus save the Spirit. I found an online scrnshot:
http://www.beastwithin.org/users/wwwwolf/games/nwn/screenshots/nwncampaign/mononoke.jpg
That's how that whole realm is like in NWN1's official campaign, all smoky and stuff, and lots of fairys and grigs etc.
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In my homebrew, I make the feywild be in the Border Ethereal Plane, and I make it be all over the Prime Material, and its the place that spirits operate when on the Prime Material, when in full incorporeal form (hence the defensive Ethereal spell). Here, if a 'prime' (Planescape lingo! LOL!) is like cooking a sandwich, then w/proper application (via cantrip or some such), any spirit in the same room can have the same sandwich, an exact duplicate of it. This as matter is more 'pronounced' in the Ethereal, in a similar vein as how one can have a rush of logical thoughts when right in the phase of moving from sleep to being awake, and yet somehow forget much of those thoughts upon being fully awake (and the fact that scientists say that humans only use a fraction of their brain--not counting stupid people, of course  ). There are some examples of this in Stephen King's short story, "Willa." and somewhat again in "The New York Times at Special Bargain Rates," where the title implies that now that the character is dead, on the other side, he can now always get a copy of that paper for free.
As far as time moving differently in the Feywild than on the Prime Material, how I interpret that for my homebrew is how it is in the '97 movie "Contact," (SPOILER AHEAD!) where when Eleanor meets her father, she says she's there for many hours, but she's only recorded (by the NASA people) to be gone for 30 seconds - yet Eleanor's tape recorder (that was on her person) goes on and records static for the same amount of hours that she says she was there at point of 'contact.'
I also have the Feywild and Shadowfel both on the same Ethereal that surrounds the Prime Material, but are different 'territories.' I'm still working on that though, and it isn't fully thought through as I've never ran a campaign going in those 'areas.'
As far as thin spots, I use some blatant things like the Nepenthe river under Dragonspear Castle as an actual natural 'gate' between the Prime Material and the Planes (though in the situation I juss mentioned, one can argue that the Nepenthe river there is actually a natural river, one which leads to death b/c of the terrain around and currents within, rather than any extra-planar properties! LOL!  ). But other than blatant ones like that or magically created ones that are the deliberate work of a Planewalker, only 'primes' that are hypersensitive to the Ethereal can sense a 'thin spot' to the feywild (but fairies, grigs, and the like can do it as they please, as is their personal nature), but only 1 in a million times. Juss my homebrew, of course. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 21:39:40
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I have it where the Ethereal is actually the Feywild and the Shadowfel (it all depends if you go 'up' or 'down'). The Border Ethereal becomes Ed's 'Wood between the Worlds' (Mittlemarch, Cosmic Crossroads, etc) and leads to either of those places (which are both reflections of the Prime), and if you travel 'deep' enough you enter the Deep Ethereal, which is really that part of both the Feywild and Shadowfel that touch other worlds (so it still works that you can travel through the Ethereal and Shadow to get to other worlds, making 1e/2e/3e lore all compatible).
While digging through all my sourcebooks late last night, looking for more old maps (thank god for PDFs!). There was town I recalled on the map in the Under Illefarn module that appears nowhere else.
ANYHOW, while looking for that map I happen to look through Doom of Daggerdale (Daggerdale, Daggerford - easy mistake) and there was some interesting lore about dreams and sleep (including a magic item called The Net of Dreams). There is also a group called 'the Night Dwarves' which I suppose could e yet-another group to add to that other thread, although technically they aren't dwarves (at least not the typical kind). They are actually called Nightshades (Wood Woses), and appear to be some sort of Sylvan dwarf. Interesting to find stuff about dreams with another group that fit into The Feywild.
I can definitely use that - Dwarves are not just associated with the earthly planes - that is a common misconception believed by mortals because Prime dwarves hailed from there, and they are the type most mortals encounter. I have an example of a Sylvan (Woodland) Dwarf in the Nightshades, and Finnish Folklore (IIRC) contains a Water Dwarf. We also have the Azer associated with the plane of fire. All we need now are some Air dwarves (why does that sound like a cartoon or toy?)
In the planer cosmology I'm building (the non-deific side of things) I have it where the giants ruled the elemental planes, but they got greedy/ambitious and tried to overthrow the other planes, including the Prime. Some sided with the Elementla rulers - (prim)Ordials and their lieutenants the Djen - those eventually became the monoliths. The giants own servants - the dwarves - turned on them at that time, and the giants were forced to flee the elemental planes for the Prime and ethereal (Feywild and Shadowfel). The Dhrękons (Elder Gods) created the Dragons to hunt them down and destroy them all, but over time even that plan was forgotten, as the Dragons had a mind of their own.
Thus I've given Giants and Dragons a more 'primal' creation and agenda. Took care of the dwarves as well - the ones from the plane of earth fled before their masters to the prime.
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Minor correction, Markustay: I believe Abeir-Toril, not Faerun, means "Cradle of Life."
Dang! (where's my head-smacking smiley?)
I stand corrected. 
EDIT: So the 4e designers took the Cradle away from Life? 
How mean! That's like taking candy from a baby! (although I have heard that some of them eat babies, although that may have just been one of those "things I read on the internet".)
Sorry... couldn't resist. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2010 21:50:19 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 00:30:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Minor correction, Markustay: I believe Abeir-Toril, not Faerun, means "Cradle of Life."
Dang! (where's my head-smacking smiley?)
I stand corrected.
EDIT: So the 4e designers took the Cradle away from Life?
Actually, it'll be interesting to learn more about how the whole archaic concept of "Cradle of Life" now refers to both worlds, rather than one world on the whole.
As it is, I initially believed that "Life" [Abeir] was taken from the "Cradle" [Toril]. But the ordering of the words doesn't quite work for that. So I'm more inclined to accept, now, that "Cradle of Life" -- being the archaic term it is -- has been misinterpreted and actually only refers to Toril... perhaps because it was formulated before the creation of Abeir. Thus, Abeir has its own meaning, that we've yet to discover.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 13:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Neverwinter Nights-OC has an example of this, when the PC has to travel to the Realm of the Spirit to save the Spirit of the Wood (in the Neverwinter Wood, so it qualifies as lore for your 'North' campaign, Quale). The PC has to kill himself in order to go to the 'other side,' and thus save the Spirit.
I remember that one, when you get lost in the woods. In canon I think there is Lady of the Wood in Neverwinter forest.
Speaking of videos games, the only other I remember with fey stuff is Dragon Age, they have the Fade, and has all sorts of emotional ''demons''.
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Here, if a 'prime' (Planescape lingo! LOL!) is like cooking a sandwich, then w/proper application (via cantrip or some such), any spirit in the same room can have the same sandwich, an exact duplicate of it. This as matter is more 'pronounced' in the Ethereal, in a similar vein as how one can have a rush of logical thoughts when right in the phase of moving from sleep to being awake, and yet somehow forget much of those thoughts upon being fully awake (and the fact that scientists say that humans only use a fraction of their brain--not counting stupid people, of course ). There are some examples of this in Stephen King's short story, "Willa." and somewhat again in "The New York Times at Special Bargain Rates," where the title implies that now that the character is dead, on the other side, he can now always get a copy of that paper for free.
lol, actually one of my pcs right now is a hedge wizard, his specialty is the fools gold spell, it kind of works that way
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
As far as time moving differently in the Feywild than on the Prime Material, how I interpret that for my homebrew is how it is in the '97 movie "Contact," (SPOILER AHEAD!) where when Eleanor meets her father, she says she's there for many hours, but she's only recorded (by the NASA people) to be gone for 30 seconds - yet Eleanor's tape recorder (that was on her person) goes on and records static for the same amount of hours that she says she was there at point of 'contact.'
That state from Contact is timeless, that's how I picture a realm from where the original fey incarnated, outside the Multiverse, kind of a place of perfect good and freedom. For the Feywild I see it like the time in Narnia books. So the planes are old thousands of years, but in their time it's billions. I had a whole spelljamming time-travel campaign where the pcs dragged the Mystaran timeless megaliths across the proto-universe, that shattered the linearity of time and its bonds on the fey. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 14:15:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Now, I picked those 6 b/c of their relevance to my current campaign, but you could as easily flesh out the group with different names, as I can easily see Earavan or Aerdrie as fey powers, but TBH, the rest seem very Farunian to me.
Erevan I'll have as a local elven name for Tyche, who is an aspect (luck, trickery) of the Anomaly archetype, and Aerdrie and avariels as a remnant from when the fey powers merged their spirits with the avian creator race, just like they do now with humans. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 14:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Near Dreaming is almost like a reflection of the mundane near it, but suffused with more intense colors, smells and more fantastic features. Tangible emotions make for example fear almost visible, "bigger" weather effects cause storms to become more dangerous and pain can be exaggerated to unimaginable levels. The further one travels the more these aspects become pronounced, the deeper one is going into the Far Dreaming. The Deep Dreaming is thought to be wholly unstable realm of the imagination, maleable towards the deepest desires and dreams of those that travel it. It is a highly dangerous place because those travelling the Deep Dreaming without very stable minds will lose their sanity in the process of meeting their deepest and darkest dreams.
Thanks for that, good stuff, I imagine fear incarnate would be like phantasmal killer living spell. The Near, Far, Deep Dreaming is similar to what I imagined with in that four realms, and they would exist in all of them, and I don't want to limit the dream realms to just the Feywild.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Furthermore there are multiple ways to enter or travel through the (Near) Dreaming. These are devided in Freeholds, Glades and Trodes. Freeholds are manufuctured places in the mundane world that break down the veils between the Dreaming and the mundane world. Examples are an abandoned Victorian mansion that is magnificent Sidhe castle in the Dreaming, or a storefront that houses a hearthfire tavern for changelings. Glades are the natural counterparts that capture the collective dreams to make them more fey (think of a hidden lake, a grassy hill or pebble beach). Trodes are a webway of "feyroads" that connect freeholds, glades and particular places within the Dreaming. Some trodes even wind into the Far or Deep Dreaming to make those travelling hopelessly lost. Each important trode has a thing called the Silver Path, and this is an uncannily stable road that bends through the Dreaming and gives its travellers some kind of protection against the madness of the less savoury parts of the Dreaming. Some trodes have the opposite of a Silver Path, a Wild Portal, that will drop travellers of in unexpected directions within the Dreaming.
Great, I'm just using one such mansion from Pathfinder's Skinsaw Murders but giving an unseelie theme the cult, would be another example of a Freehold.
I already have the Golden Path of Destiny with Nobanion, the Silver Path would fit with Lurue, the Trail of Mists in the High Forest could be a part of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The places in Fearun that come to mind that fit the freehold definition WoD gives have all been mentioned afore in this thread. Evermeet is a exceptionally large one, so is Evereska but I consider only certain physical holdings to actually lead to or be coterminous with the Feywild. These places need some sort of feywild anchor (in Wod these are called hearthfires) to weaken the veil between the Feywild and the natural world. In Evermeet Amluiriels mythal in the crystal palace in Leuthilspar has this function, and the Queen of Elves has a strong tie to Arvandor because the Seldarine provide her with the means to anchor the Island of Elves to their divine home. The close ties the Feywild has to the plane of Dreams is an effect that helps obfuscate the isle from non-fey eyes.
Nice idea about the obfuscation. The hearthfires are like the terminus point MT mentioned, I already planned for one such place parallel to the High Craftshouse in Lantan called the Wonderhearth, a part of Gond's Wonderhome realm.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I think the High Forests ancient Pale Tree is another excellent candidate for a Fearunian freehold, as it is likely governed by some kind of noble eladrin who guards the place and provides safe passage for fey hunters who like to hunt for sport on Fearun. Perhaps this Pale Tree is but one of the many multiversal hunting lodges that Oberon the great Hunter created for his own amusement. By anchoring part of his fiery spirit within a mighty tree (thus creating a great duskwood of 210 ft high that blossoms as he is about to perform his famed great hunts), Oberon brought about a permanent link (a silver path if you will) between his Feywild home and Fearuns abundant hunting grounds. The Pale Tree can, with Oberon or Titania's permission , be used as a nexus for travelling via the Feywild to distant freeholds on Toril or even those on far away natural worlds (such as Greyhanwks Oerth or Birthrights Aebrynis).
So the Pale Tree as a foci for the Silvery Path, I plan more such places such as the Citadel of Mists.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
In WoD the Fey Energy is called Glamour (which is described by their mages as Quintessance). Without it a Changeling fey loses his "magic" to Banality (Mortal Disbelief) and risks becoming mundane; with too much Glamour they risk Bedlam, a form of insanity. So in D&D even fey are susceptible to seeking too much of radiant energy - even the chaotic elves need some sort of balance in a source of their vital life force.
Your mention of Threnody combined with this idea of Bedlam made me think about the darker side of fey magic and why the sun elves needed to evacuate their home, Tintageer. I imagine the destruction of Tintageer could have been caused by unfettered radiant energy, perhaps by the unchecked growth of a sun like celestial body. It could also have been their massive use of radiant energy when using high magic in their eons long attempt to shape their realm into the elves utopia.
The tendancy for elven high magic to go awry might be linked to the chaotic nature of radiant energy and arcane scholars lack of knowledge of it.
Ack! There's so much lore to consider here! I'll try to make sense of the Dark Crystal myth and how it too could be seen as an Unseelie freehold firehearth. The crystal acts like some sort of natural mythal i.e. its a focus point or sacred stone of an Unseelie glade. Hmmm, time to open up some more tomes!
I really like the idea of Tintageer overusing the radiant energy, fits with the sun elves. The Sundering was more earthly, that's why the leader of the circle was a green elf.
My take on the Dark Crystal is that Auril was corrupted by seeing her future and fate within it, she was chained and saw what was her part in Destiny, what she needed to do, doing evil for the sake of good. That's why she's so emotionally distant.
Magic failing due to disbelief, that'd be interesting to use somehow in a game. Auril would be in the Bedlam insanity, but she developed a defense mechanism against it, the coldness. Lurue would be on the edge of Bedlam.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 14:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Absolutely - most Runes we see today are are just pale reflections of the True Runes they are based upon. Elder (Eldritch) Giants and Dwarven Runelords keep those secrets from human hands.
In the campaign I'm running from Paizo the runelord at the end is human, Thassilon (changed the Paizo's name to ''Thulsa'') was founded by Azlant and the pre-Sundering realm in the north pole. Then the runes would an arcane way of translating fey magic. The eldritch and death giants from MM3 are the most cool to use, along with the rune giants.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
If capitilized, it is a reference to the race, but in their language the lower-case form would simple be the number '1'.
I like the number 1, fits with the reality of oneness they incarnated from. According to wiki the word fey comes from old french and latin as the word for Fates. That's why I tied it to the race of destiny theme.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
haven't yet figured-out how many proto-pantheons I want, but I do make the assumption that many human gods are the same power (human pantheons having come much later then many others). I'm not taking the actual being from those mythologies, but rather saying that deity is an aspect of another (Fey) power. If you look closely at every world religion, they all incorporate the concept of small nature-spirits that remain mostly unseen by mortals, who can be bribed with small offerings, and can be angered by breaking taboos (which can be many things, depending on the 'spirit' in question). Its a fairly universal concept - all I'm doing is running with the Norse pantheon's own premise that their are a few Fey mixed into human pantheons everywhere.
My story about the proto-pantheons is that first there were no gods, there were human immortals in Azlant, who after the ice age chose to become mortal and procreate again because they stagnated evolutionally. The first wave of settlers were the Ice Hunters (or the Shoanti in PF), they had no gods, their beliefs were simple like in the Paleolithic. At first they were all shamans and created the Spirtworld with their minds (like in the Shaman sourcebook from 2e). Later the knowledge was lost and they began worshipping the spirits who grew independent. In the Neolithic that evolved in concepts and archetypes like the Great Mother, I imagine the Talfiric and Yuir like that. Later gods appeared with the formation of civilization.
The other proto-pantheon was in Lomarnu (Lemuria analog) where a few humans survived the ice age following the Old Gods (of the lost creator races, serpentine, avian and amphibian).
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
The Fey don't really look at gods the way mortals do (being originally immortal themselves) - they look at them in much the way Faerunians would perceive Chosen (Uber-powerful individuals, but still of the same core being as them). So fey are not intimidated at all by a god's divinity, but rather by its shear power (which Fey can literally feel and see). I think this is why the Imaskari had the attitude they did - they learned it from the Le'Shay (and its canon that they did receive 'teachings' from the Fey). Divinity is just another level of power, to both the Fey and Imaskari; something to aspire to, not to grovel before.
Agreed. Additionally I have a few fey who believe that becoming a god would divert them from their true destiny and that the gods-system was set up as a trap by the Demiurge to put powerful beings in control. That's why there are titanic uprisings.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Loths and Rakshasa? not the way i would have went - sounds interesting.
yea, the difference is the loths are evolved abstractions of evil from the outer planes, rakshasas are in the inner planes (Shadowfel) and the Prime. Weird loth forms like the mezzoloth are remnants from the earlier creator races, from when their belief shaped the planes, arcanaloths are new. Same with the non-catlike rakshasas, they predated the Mulhorandi-Vedic conflict.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Fey NPCs should be able to cross whenever the DM needs them to.
Preferring light rules. I'd say everyone should be able to cross when the DM needs them
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
If we take this a step further, perhaps Elves are actually getting sustenance from Radiant energy!
By the same token, their could be worlds where the sun is young and vibrant, and gives off more of this life-sustaining radiant energy - the Elven homeworld and Feyspace would be two great candidates for Crystal spheres with this type of setup.
I guess, that would be like the solar yoga, I'd say that fey are just better at it, but humans could take a feat or two.
Interesting that in 4e Dark Sun the Feywild is dying.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Now I've gone and made Fey Terminus Points the opposite of Magical Dead Zones... but that sorta makes sense, eh.
I think that the description of Evermeet's creation in GHoTR hints just at. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:56:34
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I lost another long-winded post (did I just hear 'cheering?) regarding Radiant energy, the gods, Fey and Drow. It was inspired by separate lines of thought in this thread and the Ilythiir one, and after making a joke in yet another thread - about calling The Force (SW) 'the Mystic Force' - I wiki'd some stuff and it lead me back to my term 'Elan' (which I borrowed from the Stormbringer game).
That game actually borrowed it from the Élan vital - 'Life Force', and that entry lead me to Prana, which interestingly enough relates to sunlight! A quote:
"Prana was first expounded in the Upanishads, where it is part of the worldly, physical realm, sustaining the body and the mother of thought and thus also of the mind. Prana suffuses all living forms but is not itself the Atman or individual soul. In the Ayurveda, the Sun and sunshine are held to be a source of Prana.
Isn't that so perfect?
The entire concept of 'Elan' being some other energy that worshipers provide their gods is no longer necessary. Radiant energy (just one particular spectrum of light - the 'highest' form) is what every living being has within them, with certain powerful individuals (read: high level) having much more.
Ergo, gods do not 'receive' energy from worship, but rather open a conduit that allows them to draw-upon their faithful's own life energies! By the same token, mortals can 'borrow' some of the energy as well (usually in the form of divine magic, but other forms are possible as well - think "power of prayer"). Evil gods would look at mortals like batteries - there just to provide them with extra energy when they need it - but in reality the divine conduit that worship creates is more akin to a capacitor (which can both store minute amounts of energy, or release it all at once). In this model, Chosen are just larger receptacles for this divine (Radiant) energy which a deity can draw-upon when necessary.
This also helps explain some of the difference between primordials and deities; primordials have massive amounts of power through their connections to the Elemental planes, which deities cannot normally compete with. However, by starting a religion they can access a much larger reserve of energy and thereby challenge the much older and more powerful primordials (which has happened on MANY prime worlds).
Everything from a blade of grass on up to the 'Ultimate being' would contain various amounts of Radiant energy (so long as they remain 'alive'). Sentient beings, naturally, would possess quite a bit more, and the energy levels would go both up and down from there. This also helps explain what is happening in Darksun with Defilers (without access to arcane {Material} energy, they have to drain the life-force of things). I'm not sure how that relates to the Feywild 'dying' on Athas (perhaps the loss of Radiant energy is sealing the normal terminus points and the Feywild is becoming more and more remote from Athas?).
The only problem I have with that is that Athas is known for its sunlight... but it could be an old, dying sun (Red Giant?) which no longer gives-off much, if any, Radiant Energy (which would be in the upper reaches of the light-spectrum).
We could take this a step further - the color red is usually associated with fiends - perhaps the lower end of the spectrum provides some sort of Infernal power? Not sure about that one...
Anyhow, we can see how (using this Radiant Energy model) beings of 'lesser power' would want to create religions for themselves, but beings of a higher magnitude - like (prim)Ordials and above - would not care to be 'beholden' to mere mortals, whom they barely acknowledge. Because the energy-transfer is a two-way street, they can't be bothered answering 'prayers' for their faithful.
So it still works very well within my cosmological model, and in-fact simplifies several things. I now only have three 'pure' forms of energy, and everything else is based on those three; to wax poetic, you could say "The Feywild is a reflection of the world upon the heavens, and the Shadowfel is the darkness the world casts upon the hells". Both in their own way are 'mirrors' of the Material plane (which in my model contains the prime and the four elements).
Only gods can use vast amounts of Radiant energy without becoming 'burned-out' - what mortals contain and use in the form of Divine Magic is very minute compared to what the gods can wield.
I still have to figure-out exactly how this relates to shadow/black magic. If the absence of Radiant Energy leaves behind only 'dark matter' when a person 'passes on', then everyone would become some form of undead. I think I will have to tie taint into all of this - a person is born with only radiant Energy, but with taint their 'earthly vessel' becomes more and more filled with 'darkness' (which means a truly vile person will become undead when they die, which fits really well).
And now I'm coming perilously close to this becoming a RW religious discussion....
Anyway, I thought my homebrew model was moving too far away from the canon Realms, but now I see this actually shoe-horns perfectly into the War of Light & Darkness. We could even look at it like this: Athas is what Toril would be had the Black Diamond Affair been more successful (only the corruption wasn't as complete).
Hmmmmmm... maybe that's when the Feywild and Shadwfel were created! Before then you only had the 'three worlds'. The 'echoes' of the prime were the 'fix' that the Fey applied in-order to draw the illness out of the world (and sacrificed themselves in the process, since they had to go into the Feywild to achieve 'balance').
Any input? I need to mull-over these new lines of reasoning. Since I want to keep 'Chaos' (Corruption) and 'Evil' (Taint) as separate things, I have to figure-out why Chthon would have helped with the corruption of the world... I think it may have to do with destroying 'The Balance' (the glue which holds reality together?)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 20:07:25 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:26:35
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I think the sun of Athas was once sapphire blue, then yellow, now a red giant, or even about to go off like in the Dying Earth.
don't see a problem with the undead, they're abominations, when the radiant energy does what it's not supposed to, it destroys and blows things up, when the dark energy is twisted it animates undead things
what's the background on the Chthon guy, why would you equate corruption and chaos?
maybe it's not evil, just its public image, more people view chaos more evil than law these days, neophobes |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:33:45
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Chthon is used in Marvel Comics.
I was using just Cthon, based on the term 'Cthonic', simply because I did not like to use 'Cthulhu' for my 'great aberrational god' (I greatly dislike using deities from other worlds/settings).
Besides, although I am not a fan of that genre, I know that Cthulhu is NOT a god - he was the high priest of an even older ancient evil. In the new D&D terminology, I would say Cthulhu is an exarch of Chthon. I 'think' the real Cthulhu worshiped Hastur (going by the 1e DD), but I can't be sure. Either way, I would rather keep Hastur separate as well (he would be an Ordial in my parlance - those beings older then deities).
I had actually forgotten about Marvel's Chthon, until reminded by Sage. My version is a bit different - it is actually the entity better-known in D&D as Tharizdun (or Ghaunadar in FR, or even Shothragot). It has many names and faces; some are merely aliases, while others are self-aware avatars (by its nature, it can NOT create Avatars that aren't self-willed).
In a nutshell, it is the chaos that was expelled from The ONE at the beginning of the universe. As the first being came into existence, it expunged the roiling chaos from its burgeoning mind, thus creating the second being in existence. Chthon strives to return the universe to its primal state of pure chaos. In techno-spheres, this moment would have been referred to as 'the Big Bang'. The being's very first thought was "let their be clarity!", which some religions have translated to 'Let their be Light!".
The Demiurge would have been next. The universe was empty except for The ONE, and so it created Ymir (the concept of physical matter) from pockets of chaos that still hung within the newborn universe. The demiurge would have pre-dated that creation by infinitely small amount of time (which didn't even exist yet), and may have actually been created at the exact moment the first being split into two (which makes it a bit like Marvel Comics' In-Betweener). The other concepts soon followed: Time (Kronos), Space (Ptah), Life (Vishnu), Death (Nergal?), Good (?), Evil (Ahriman), etc...
The demiurge is usually represented in mortal mythology as female, and is oft-times referred to as the 'Earth-Mother'. She is the divine feminine. Without the ability to create and nurture, the universe would still be an empty place. None of these beings is actually either male or female - they are pure energy, and can take whatever form they want, if they even care to take a physical form. Most do not even interact with mortals - they use Ordials and deities for this (which are rally just uber-Avatars).
I used to call these beings Conceptuals, because of what they represented; the very building-blocks of the universe. I would have preferred Celestials, but that was already taken. Marvel Comics would refer to them as 'Cosmic Entities', but I usually just call them Elder Gods (capital 'G' - 'gods' simply refers to any being above mortal level).
They created the Ordials, and tasked them to create the Universe, and they shaped the Heavens and Hells. Avatars of Ahriman and Celestia(?) created the Great Wheel - the first artifact - which turned Radiant (Divine) Energy into soul-stuff. During this time Ymir was destroyed - it was the very first 'War of the Gods'.* The expanding Maelstrom of chaos that issued forth from his demise was contained into the Material Plane, which was latter separated into the four elemental planes and the prime. The Ordials called-forth the first of the mortal beings from the body of Ymir - the Jotuns (Giants) and Dvergar (Dwarves). From these first mortals the deities were born - either through ascendance or spontaneous creation - due to reverence of 'higher powers'. Annam was an Ordial, and he created the Giant pantheon (mortal giants did not come-about until MUCH later; same with the Dvergar).
Thats about it - real basic - I haven't even named all the Conceptuals (they should all be over-gods in existing pantheons, I think).
*I covered this in another thread - basically Chthon tried to destroy the universe by creating servants of his own (he cannot enter the universe - he must remain outside of it). These servants became known as Bahamut and Tiamet, who were designed to be the chaotic opposites of Ahriman and Celestia. After they were imprisoned by the Elder Gods they were made to swear-off chaos forever, and were greatly lessened in stature. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 21:40:09 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 23:25:59
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I really have no idea how Cthon would got corrupted. You could look into the proteans (from Pathfinder, not Mass Effect), it's a similar concept, particularly Speakers of the Depths.
Or, it goes against my D&D beliefs, Cthon is a titan, being chained to the Dark Tapestry and seeing into the Far Realm pushes him to do evil. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 00:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I 'think' the real Cthulhu worshiped Hastur (going by the 1e DD), but I can't be sure. Either way, I would rather keep Hastur separate as well (he would be an Ordial in my parlance - those beings older then deities).
Chaosium's "Cthulhu" is supposedly the high priest of Yog-Sothoth. Which I think is actually more appropriate.
quote:
I had actually forgotten about Marvel's Chthon, until reminded by Sage. My version is a bit different - it is actually the entity better-known in D&D as Tharizdun (or Ghaunadar in FR, or even Shothragot). It has many names and faces; some are merely aliases, while others are self-aware avatars (by its nature, it can NOT create Avatars that aren't self-willed).
I like that interpretation.
I've followed somewhat similar paths, even setting up the Blackstaff family as a line of "Sorcerer Supreme-like" wizards who guard Realmspace from the threats beyond. Though Chthon has yet to make an appearance in my Realms [I'm a little hesitant to utilise the concept of "Elder Gods" until I can properly quantify it for my world], I've dropped references about a "portal-book" -- very similar to the Darkhold -- which was apparently written in the very depths of the Elemental Chaos [though I don't actually call it that  ]. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 12:38:12
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what about the Wands?
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Anyway I'm going back to the subject, next game I plan to finish the Foxglove manor in Pathfinder #2. The haunts had an unseelie feel, just like in the previous adventure I changed the followers of Lamashtu to the Blood Mother (Talfiric Morrigan). The Skinsaw Men were a heretical cult of Red Knight, of her fallen proxy who has the portfolio of murder. And I'll change the lamia matriarch (greek theme) to dearg-due. When the pcs get into Magnimar, I need to make more details on the talfiric culture, Sandpoint was small and easy. After that the Turtleback Ferry will lead into Feywild and the ogres will be there. I turned the book found in PF #1 the Syrpens Tane: Fairy Tales of the Eldest into a part of the main plot, where the runewell of wrath was responsible for the thousands year old war of the Eldest. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 23:17:50
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Chthon is not corrupted - that's not what I meant. It is the embodiment of Chaos itself (is IS corruption). The energies at its command are the ones that were thrust-out of the universe at the beginning of time. If it ever regained entry into the Universe its very presence would unravel reality.
That is why channeling energies from the Far Realms causes Psuedo-natural mutations. These energies are acidic to the fabric of reality - it distorts and corrupts it. It has absolutely nothing to do with good or evil - it eats away at LAW wherever it can (which means the laws of physics/magic in D&D terms).
'Taint' is something else altogether - it is 'the darkness' which exists at the deepest level of the multiverse. Humans are born of pure Radiant energy - the 'soulstuff' - but through their actions they can become 'tainted'. The more taint, the less Radiant energy they possess.
Think of people as vessels - they only hold so much. We start off like Soda - all bubbly and sweet. Then we see we can have a little bit of fun by adding some darkness - this would be the Alcohol (or whatever spirits you like to drink for this metaphor). So most folks are a fairly weak Rum & Coke. Two much Alcohol and the drink becomes bitter.. eventually you have nothing but pure grain alcohol (Manshoon). Even the vilest of villains usually have a little bit of Radiance left within them (think Darth Vader).
Here's the trick, and how we can use this for D&D rules: The percentage chance of a person coming back as an undead is directly proportionate to the amount their 'vessel' is filled with 'darkness'. For instance, I think Sememmon was probably around 75% 'evil', but his love for Ashemmi has taken him closer to the 50/50 mark (and he scored some major brownie points when he helped Khelben). Love, of course, is the best way to directly access and use Radiant energy (just ask Harry Potter).
Which now all relates back to Elminster and the Forgotten Realms setting. I said recently in another thread that Elminster was Chosen because he cares. Caring = 'Love'. Elminster can see the magic 'beyond the Weave', and do things no other can, because he cares SO much.
Sure, a Mage can follow the path of darkness... but that just a shadow of true power.
And now to try and relate all of this back to Quale's rather excellent topic: Fey are not lawful or chaotic, Good or Evil. They are the perfect blend of all four, for they strive for 'Balance'. Fey have learned to tap-into 'the power beyond the magic' (that elusive fey power-source). They also have a MUCH broader view of the world and the planes - they see 'the big picture'. They realize that when the world becomes out-of-balance, the natural laws of the universe begin to break-down (and Chthon can reach through).
So while killing a handful of humans for chopping down some trees may seem like an evil act to a human, demi-human, or humanoid, what they are doing is protecting the world's own 'life-force' - they care little for the short-lived mortal beings that scurry about in their pointless lives. Even when they are being their most evil (and some fey are pretty damn EVIL), they are working toward 'the greater good'.
Its in the interpretation of that 'greater good' where the differences come-in between the various Faery Courts. While Titania's folk may simply scare-away the woodcutters, the Redcaps and other nasty folk of the Unseelie Court wouldn't hesitate to kill them in the most gruesome manner (thus assuring that future humans will stay the hell away).
And Fey, regardless of Court, will work together and with whomever else to destroy any cancerous connections to the Far Realms. In the far greater scheme of things and the Outer Planes, I could even see Devils and Celestials working together to close exceptionally large (and threatening) tears in the fabric of space-time. Demons, of course, would revel in it (since they have already been corrupted).
And if all of this makes you think that Shar and Chthon are working toward the same ends, guess again. They may work together on occasion (after all , their goals are similar), but Chthon wants the universe to revert back to its primal form - that of the primordial soup.. the roiling chaos which is so similar to the Elemental Maelstrom (but a billion times greater). Shar wants the universe to revert to its original form, which is just an empty void without light, heat, or any living (mortal) thing.
Shar wants to go back to the big bang - Chthon wants to go back before it. Both want the current universe to be extinguished, but as to what point they differ. Shar will work with her 'Grandfather', but only so far.
What? You didn't know they were related? Shadow is the daughter of The Night... and Erebus is the offspring of Chaos. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2010 23:30:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 18:45:36
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I'm starting to take some of this (mentally) in another direction, which I have tentatively named the 'mortal-bound'.
Basically, its a way of explaining what happens to Fey (and other extra-planer races) that are basically immortal in their home planes, but lose that when born in the Prime (A Fey child born in the Prime Material would be an Eladrin).
It would also help explain some of the differences between other races and their mortal kin (like Planer dwarves and giants, which I discussed above).
Its barely the germ of an idea at this point - basically an 'in-between' stage of the mortal races and their Planer counter-parts (or vice-versa). It would mean that those races somehow derive a specific type of sustenance (Ambrosia?) from the plane itself.
Not sure how that fits in with everything else, but there should be a way for 'faery creatures' to lose their fey-ness - its in all the folklore (and needed by us/D&D to explain why elves/Eladrin AREN'T Fey).
Basically, the Prime material almost becomes like a 'infected' plane, and the infection it carries is death itself. The other material planes (Elemental) would not have this problem. I may have to re-draw my cosmology - I'm starting to see things a little different. I may drop the Torus' (although they look cool) for layers of spheres (so the multiverse winds-up looking like an onion... or an ogre.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Nov 2010 18:49:14 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm starting to take some of this (mentally) in another direction, which I have tentatively named the 'mortal-bound'.
Basically, its a way of explaining what happens to Fey (and other extra-planer races) that are basically immortal in their home planes, but lose that when born in the Prime (A Fey child born in the Prime Material would be an Eladrin).
It would also help explain some of the differences between other races and their mortal kin (like Planer dwarves and giants, which I discussed above).
Its barely the germ of an idea at this point - basically an 'in-between' stage of the mortal races and their Planer counter-parts (or vice-versa). It would mean that those races somehow derive a specific type of sustenance (Ambrosia?) from the plane itself.
Not sure how that fits in with everything else, but there should be a way for 'faery creatures' to lose their fey-ness - its in all the folklore (and needed by us/D&D to explain why elves/Eladrin AREN'T Fey).
Basically, the Prime material almost becomes like a 'infected' plane, and the infection it carries is death itself. The other material planes (Elemental) would not have this problem. I may have to re-draw my cosmology - I'm starting to see things a little different. I may drop the Torus' (although they look cool) for layers of spheres (so the multiverse winds-up looking like an onion... or an ogre.)
I'd make it a characteristic of Faerie, itself, instead of making the problem the other planes. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:37:49
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I see what you mean about chaos (Chthon), the difference in my cosmology is that the force behind the planes is not exactly balanced, it has lawful evil tendencies, the far realms are not aligned, just different, remnants of what things were like in the previous multiverses. Limbo-ish chaos is a tool of the Demiurge just as law is, it controls both sides. There are two ''balances'', one is what are rilmani and the Outlands, the other is rebellious, introduced when fey interloped into the multvierse, it's what kamerel were (elf-like beings from the plane of mirrors) before they were ''cursed'' by Shar. Before fey, things were dualistic, the rule of three began with them, they did not bring balance, they introduced Anomaly (e.g. luck). The Demiurge tolerates them cause it wants to evolve towards infinity, impossible without such ''mutations'' of the fey. In the ''Big Bang'' Phoenix burst into multiple dimensions, imitating infinity, but it always fails, lol, always just an infinitely pale reflection of perfection, cause it starts at 1.
Agreed with the rest you said, except soda and alcohol, Semmemon is 75 percent soda. But for people to come back as undead, it needs to be a very traumatic death, where their will breaks the rules of reality.
I explained that fey can merge with any matter, and they want to be a creator race of destiny, to they fade into humans and the prime world. Kind of like the morphic field theory, they adapt to mortality. Also human belief shapes the spiritworld, and how long it will last. Death was taken by the gods, incorporated into theirs tyrannical system.
Elves are fey, for me.
How about this model, you have both, Shar in the middle.
Edit: link doesn't work, wth
this |
Edited by - Quale on 19 Nov 2010 22:42:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:57:06
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That is one badly broken link.
As for the Semmemon, I was just using him as a reference - I really know very little about him (just a quick example there).
And I think we are actually seeing Chaos/Cthon the same way - I don't think of it as 'evil'. There are MANY worlds (spheres, whatever) in the Far Realms (hence the name), and not all of them follow Cthon - some are actually lawful and/or good! That's the very essence of chaos; even within chaos, some law MUST exist, by its very nature. There would be at least as many worlds within the primal chaos outside the universe as their are within - its just that most of them are so exotically different that the physical universe is of very little concern to them. This is where we get the truly bizarre stuff like Triphegs, Phaerimm, Mimics, and Sharn (note I don't name any of the 'usual suspects', who are overly concerned with the material universe).
Still not sure about that new train of thought - its workable, in that the material plane is linked to death (through Ymir - the 1st death) in my cosmology. The material plane is technically the rotting corpse of an Elder God. I have to think on that, and take into account the 'dwindling' of fey, and other things. each change sens ripples throughout the rest of what I have. LOL
I like the 'Race of destiny' stuff you are going with - I may adapt some of that as well (Its not far-off from what I have - each Creator race is affiliated with a different element, and the Fey wanted 'life' (Alloy), but the humans got that).
I can't wait to do a map of 'faery land' after I'm done with the conversion I'm doing. I plan to add all sorts of nifty little 'homages' to various works.
Edit: Now that the link works, I have to ask - where did you get an X-Ray of my Ex's chest-cavity? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Nov 2010 22:58:29 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 00:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm starting to take some of this (mentally) in another direction, which I have tentatively named the 'mortal-bound'.
Basically, its a way of explaining what happens to Fey (and other extra-planer races) that are basically immortal in their home planes, but lose that when born in the Prime (A Fey child born in the Prime Material would be an Eladrin).
It would also help explain some of the differences between other races and their mortal kin (like Planer dwarves and giants, which I discussed above).
Its barely the germ of an idea at this point - basically an 'in-between' stage of the mortal races and their Planer counter-parts (or vice-versa). It would mean that those races somehow derive a specific type of sustenance (Ambrosia?) from the plane itself.
Not sure how that fits in with everything else, but there should be a way for 'faery creatures' to lose their fey-ness - its in all the folklore (and needed by us/D&D to explain why elves/Eladrin AREN'T Fey).
Basically, the Prime material almost becomes like a 'infected' plane, and the infection it carries is death itself. The other material planes (Elemental) would not have this problem. I may have to re-draw my cosmology - I'm starting to see things a little different. I may drop the Torus' (although they look cool) for layers of spheres (so the multiverse winds-up looking like an onion... or an ogre.)
I would allow the "infectious" nature to occur on the Elemental Planes as well -- if only because some elements have a negative impact on other elements when they are combined. And a mortal-bound fae form would indeed be composed of a number of different elements occurring in the same space at the same time.
Hmmm. Perhaps this negativity or "anti-life" [sorry Darkseid ] for faeborn, is caused by the interaction of conflicting elements in their biological forms -- it strips them of their immortal natures.
...
Sorry Markus. What started as an expansion of your idea, now looks like it's heading off onto an entirely new track.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Nov 2010 01:54:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 04:02:21
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Its all good - we are synthesizing various ideas to get a cohesive amalgam that works for nearly everyone.
Was watching the 'making of Harry Potter' the other night (about the effects used in the films), and we have to have Cornish Pixies!
Along with those octopoidal variants that troubled Harry when he was doing that underwater task (not the Mer-people, the Grindylow). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2010 02:57:51 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 16:58:42
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I know nothing about Harry Potter, except that it has vilas (they're elf-like), they are from my country's mythology. I heard some real life stories about them, you'd think I was crazy.
About Semmemon, I meant soda is darkness, not alcohol.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Edit: Now that the link works, I have to ask - where did you get an X-Ray of my Ex's chest-cavity?
from some pseudoscience site, must be the ''as above, so below'' principle, and universe is a cold place, lol |
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Fey realms
