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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 21:42:02
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| lol, that'd be fun, World Serpent Inn got nothing on the cosmic trehouse |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 13:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like the Shadow-Fey area lining-up with the Old Empires, but I think maybe we should be thinking in terms of how Abeir-Toril is supposed to look. When the Fey left, the Sundering hadn't happened yet, ergo the center of Faerie should be somewhere in the northern part of the Trackless Sea (since that is where they eladrin appeared, and that was the coast that was torn-apart to create Evermeet). Evermeet should align with Tintageer on the other side (and since that island-city was not Faerie itself, but rather in Faerie, that works).
As for the Old Empires thing, if we take the idea that the Fey were original from the Eastern end of the proto-continent, then perhaps the old fey-homelands were centered somewhere around the Raurin (which REALLY works for me), and the outskirts of their rather large demesne would have been Murghōm on the west and the Larang valleys in the east. If the capital (Ladinion) was on the eastern fringe of their lands, then the Unseelie Court could align with the area I think was the site of the black Diamond affair (The Hanya Maut Wasteland). That still places Myrkul's homeland within the corrupted area (but not at 'ground zero').
returning back to this
Hanya Maut was the place Celestial Emperor left to the Nine Immortals as a reminder, everywhere was a wasteland. You want this cause of the dwarves? I switched the Yehimals with the Spine of the World.
The Trackless sea would be perfect, remains of a broken realm, some kind of twilight lands, I used the term Twilight Turfs for the environs of a dark fey (daoine sidhe/tiste andiii) ruined city, maybe that, and the Court of Stars would be above. A lot of sites and lands could be included there, like Svartalfheim. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 16:51:40
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continuing
I don't want for the realm to be so dualistic, symmetrical or redundant as it's done in the mentioned sources (e.g. Unseelie/Seelie, or Eternal Summer/Winter/Spring/Autumn), the diagrams and maps from Faeries errata are decent for a start, I'm keeping the four major regions, but it needs some chaos. The terminology:
Faerie, a realm of fey loyal or at least not opposed to the Seelie ruler, whatever's her name. Includes the frost fey in the High Ice etc. Faerie is bound to Faerun, ''run'' is like a huge rune composed of ley-lines, their fates are interwoven, they are ''one land''. The faerie queen merged with the archetypal earth goddess in a kalashtar-like way. There are pockets of Faerie outside of Faerun but the Weave concentration is on the continent.
Fey, a group of spirits bound to the fate of humans, that's how they became the Creator Race, originally outsiders. Before they were connected to other lost creator races, which explains faerie dragons.
Feywild, includes Faerie and untamed pockets within Faerie or its outskirts. In a way resembling the Wheel's Beastlands. The two other realms are the Deep Wilds and the Twilight Turfs. Deep Wilds are remnants of the primal world, savage hunting grounds. Twilight Turfs are similar only darker, connected to the unseelie realm and Shadow, faded and torn up parts of Faerie, Ladinion, First World etc. I'm not sure if the name sounds stupid in English, inspired by the tylwyth teg.
The Unseelie realm is an outcast, I can't think of a good name, Land of Eternal Winter, Winter, Winter Court, Winter's Hall are all not satisfying or too local.
Outside of it all, and sometimes between the realms, is the Ethereal Maelstrom, given form it becomes the Spiritworld. Genies were given form by arcanists from the Prime, they are different. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 22:02:50
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| The Great Stone Ring site from Faeries fits on the other side of the Faerie Well in Turmish (Chondath in my Realms), and the crossroads from Erevis Cale near Starmantle would be a part of its web, also the one in the Hermit Heights. |
Edited by - Quale on 25 Oct 2010 22:12:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 23:47:52
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As I said, I haven't gotten all the Fey stuff figured out with the Eladrin and Fey changes in 4e. I think the Feywild should be a realm with Fey, Goblins, and giants, but the Goblins should have more of a DiTerLizzi/Spiderwick look (I love his work on Planescape).
I think dwarves are from the Elemental Planes, but I haven't quite got that figured out. There is a primordial connection between them and the Fey - that much I did work-out - but they have connections with the giants as well. I think Gnomes are the result of Dwarves breeding with the race of small fey (Vęttir).
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The Unseelie realm is an outcast, I can't think of a good name, Land of Eternal Winter, Winter, Winter Court, Winter's Hall are all not satisfying or too local.
The Feyfrost Forest
If that's too much alliteration for you, how about just Niflheim? There seems to be some pretty deep connections between the Giants and Fey, if you reference Norse and Celtic Myth (and Brian James went that route with his Moonshaes article and the Fomorian lore).
I don't have a name beyond the tropey 'Halls of Winter', wherein dwelt the Frost King (Father Winter) of Old. The Winter King's son, Jaaque Frost, was very upset when the old (Fey) Liege retired and the crown was passed to Aurillana, and now spends his time playing tricks upon her court and everyone else. There is also a mountainous region wherin dwells the Hoar Hag, and she gaurds her cave which is a secret entrance to Hel.
In my Fey cosmology there are moving courts, but it works a bit differently. When there is an opening in one of the four courts the other royalty shifts around. This is normally done in an orderly fashion (Titania went from the Spring princess to the Summer Queen, and Oberon went from being the Summer King to the Harvest Lord). Normally this happens when the oldest (who rules Winter) retires (ascends, passes on to oblivion, goes to Club Med, whatever) and the rest move 'forward', but occasionally 'upsets' occur, as was the case when Aurillana took the position of Winter Queen.
I'm toying with the idea of further boiling-down the concept (to avoid more Faerie courts) and have summer, Autumn, and Winter correspond to the Seelie, Twilight, and Unseelie Courts, with the fourth really being a 'non-court', representing anarchy. Thus I can also have them correspond to the alignments - Spring/Chaos, Summer/Good, Autumn/Law, and Winter/Evil. Although those concepts are certainly not as 'pure' as the D&D/human concepts. A little bit of each creeps into each court, and even though the Autumn court is the most orderly, it is still far from being very lawful (Think the story of the ant and grasshopper - there is a time for play, but in the fall everyone must work hard to be ready for winter).
Not sure how all of this old-school faery lore is going to shoe-horn into Eladrin lore (all editions). I really need to decontruct all of it when I go home tomorrow. The Court of Stars seems to correlate with the twilight court, I'm thinking. Since Titania obviously retired (whats the new ones name?), I assume Oberon retired from his position of Harvest Lord, and that leaves a convenient opening. What I might do is just use Auril as the catalyst for a shake-up (and even re-naming) of the faerie Courts. The problem is that the court of stars sounds like it should have been the replacement for the Court of Night. The 4th edition stuff is going to be tough. It looks like they added a buncha chrome and made 'shiney' once again, completely disregarding everything that went before. 
Fortunately the 4e Manual of the Planes is one of the two 4e products already in the bargain bin at my favorite discount store (along with the dice, of all things). They also have the two preview books, but I'm not sure if they count as 4e products.
Hell, I'm not even sure if they count as D&D products - they are just glorified advertisements.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2010 20:28:11 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 14:22:22
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Feyfrost Forest sounds very good, an universal name, not sure what would be in the tundra tough. Niflheim is limited to just one mythology, also it extends into other ethereal nonfey realms, it's a Northmen name that covers all the cold realms in the inner planes (your's other prime layers). Vęttir seems to me too broad, like a Northmen term for outsiders.
Dwarves, remember when we talked about the galeb duhr and urdunnir, I imagine it as a part of their evolution from earth spirits and the dharum suhn. They sought to gain favor of the fey, but were played as tools of their destruction. In mythology they have a strong association with death. I had them make a pact with the god of death, time and fate (my version of Jergal) for the Soulforge.
Agreed about the goblins, the Faeries book has them in a realm called the Badlands, I think that's acceptable, and it would include barghests and others, between the unseelie realm and the twilight lands. According to 4e they are not fey, they invaded the Feywild, I have orcs kinda taking that role.
Giants are not really a part of the fey plane, they are from the Elemental Core. I have a Promethean take on them, they are a part of human destiny, homo giganticus, superhumans that defy gods and often get destroyed, imprisoned or cursed as a consequence. Giantish ruins in Arvandor, Mithardir, or creatures like voadkyn, taiga giants, fomorians, trolls, ogres, firbolg etc. are explained by the effects of the fey planting the Tree-plane in the Elemental Core or bounding their fate to the Prime and the race of destiny.
We agree about the Winter Court, I imagined that Auril killed Father Winter and that the Prince of Frost (4e)/Jack Frost (Faeries)/Rellavar Danuvien the Frost Sprite King started a rebellion against her. The hags would be on the outskirts of the frost realm, like those Siberian bogs full with peat.
I thought of Twilight representing Autumn in way of fading, lost realms, and wouldn't want the alignment to have much importance. In 4e they changed Titania into Tiandra the Summer Queen and gave her Morwel's Court of Stars. Oberon became Oran the Green Lord, he's now a mysterious, dangerous hunter type. Winter fey have the Prince of Frost. Gloaming fey have the Maiden of the Moon, Prince of Hearts and Witch of Fates. There's also the sea fey (I was thinking what if the snow elves became the aquatics ...).
I really like your idea about Titania and Oberon, only that Titania advanced even into Autumn, playing on the ''fey are dying'' theme, and Oberon would be her little harvest helper, like the Zetvalac to the Earthmother in the Slavic mythology. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 21:35:15
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First, I had to correct what I had above in regards to alignments and courts (I had Twilight as an alignment LOL).
I am going home (Thank God!) in an hour - 2 months at my ex's house was 7½ weeks too long - and I will begin making a representational map of how I picture the Domains of the Feywild being layered.
I'm starting to view it in 3 dimensions (finally) and have a good idea of how it falls out. I think the Elemental Planes border the ethereal as well (If you recall, in my model those four and the Prime were all part of the Material Plane). So if you picture the 'earthly' (Prime) Plane as being a sphere in the center of four other spheres (the elements), then you could picture a sphere directly above the Prime representing the Feywild, with four planes bordering it as well. Those Planes would be the giant realms, and would border both the Feywild they are next to, and the elemental planes they are above. Each planer-sphere would intersect the ones it borders (thus creating border-realms, like the para-elemental planes).
Below this we have a deep layer - the Shadoworld lies directly beneath the Prime, also with four circles bordering it and the elements above. Not sure what those correspond to - I'm sure we can think of something. Ergo, the Shadowfel and Feywild both become Ultra-planes (dimensional 'layers') like the Material, containing 5 planes each (and we have our mystical pentagram in the bargain).
Above the 'Feywild level' are the Upper planes, and below the Shadowfel would be the Lower Planes. So beyond the realms of spirits lie the realms of the gods, in either direction. If you move through shadow you travel toward vile planes where evil-doers spend eternity, and if you travel through the feywild you eventually come to the home of goodly powers and the souls that have been rewarded with paradise.
Ergo, the feywild mirrors the real world, but reflects the Heavens (think of that Moonshaes story where the characters were blind-folded as they passed through Faerie - it was too beautiful for mortal eyes), and the Shadowfel also mirrors the real world, but reflects death and decay.
Everythng in this new cosmic model takes on attributes of the planes adjacent to it. Not sure how much this will mess-up the Great Wheel cosmology; I have to draw it to discern where the Outlands falls out. If I go back to my Torus (donut-shape) for the Prime, I suppose the Outlands could still revolve in its center. That unfortunately places the Outlands within the Material Plane. Maybe if I turned it on its side....
Maybe the Material, Feywild, and Shadowfel can all be Torus', with the endless spire sticking through them like a child's toy. Then we can take the idea others had about the underside of the Outlands - its opposite - so we have a top-like configuration of a disc with spikes sticking out top & bottom, and the planes stacked around it in both directions.
Of course I still have to add-in the other four planes that encircle each of the central Torus-Planes. And then we have the 4th dimension that encompasses the Prime and all the other quantum realities (I can't really draw that) - that would be the deep-ethereal (after you step-off the world tree which is just the Border ethereal). At least the part about the Ethereal being coterminous to the material Plane still works with older lore (considering I've lumped the Elements into the prime in my model).
No wonder the 4e designers had so much trouble - its almost impossible to come-up with a better working model then what Gygax came up with. The Great wheel was pretty damn close to perfect IMHO. One good thing about the Spellplague and the Cosmic Cataclysms that it heralded - it allows us to have an in-game reason for why the Cosmology shifted around.
Wow, I really went-off on tangent just now, but I erased it all. Food for another thread, I'm thinking. However, this new train of thought shoe-horns rather nicely with some of my more esoteric bits concerning the Gods, dragons, Primordials, and giants. 
Edit: I jusr realized I reinvented the Quasi-Elemental planes! All eight border-planes (the four connected to the feywild above the elements, and the four connected to the Shadowfel below the four elements) would be inhabited by giants, and be the post-plague equivalents to the Quasi-Elemental (Energy) planes. So lightning, Radiance, Minerals, and Steam would border the Feywild, and vacuum, Ash, Dust, and Salt would border the Shadowfel. All I did was swap-out the Positive and negative planes for the Feywild and Shadowfel (which makes perfect sense IMHO).
C'mon - Storm Giants being native to the plane of lightening... what could possibly make more sense? The others might be a wee-bit harder, but it should all work-out. Stone Giants in the Mineral Plane, Cloud Giants in Vacuum, etc. I actually picture them living in the overlap area where the feywild and Quasi-planes intersect. In this illustration, they would dwell in the area marked "ways they are the same", with the two circles representing the Shadow/fey planes and the Elemental planes they intersect. Sorry for that pic - its the best I can do since I'm not on my own computer ATM. I'll try to whip up a better model later. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2010 04:57:50 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 23:30:27
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Your cosmology looks like something between 4e and Golarion's Great Beyond, for 4e just move the Feywild up, and Shadowfel below the Prime, in this picture, and Golarion sort of has the circular model you mentioned, I'd post the picture from the Great Beyond, but I don't know if it's legal.
The model is simple and works well, personally it's too black and white, and symmetrical, I like the old model of the Demiplane of Shadow where it's equally composed of positive and negative energy. Initially when I made the cosmology mentioned in that other thread, the giants were also in quasi-para-elemental realms, even made the names from the Giantcraft dictionary, e.g. Isehjerte for Ice, Blodild for Magma etc. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 05:43:10
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I hadn't realized you had already used the Giants in the Quasi-planes - my bad (either it was a matter of me unconsciously remembering some of that, or we think too much alike).
Its not all 'cut & dried' - there is plenty of room for oddities and asymmetry. This is a very basic cosmic model I am conceiving now. Within each ring of spheres is other material, and within each sphere it is very unorganized, with each of the spheres acting as demiplanes. Within each are domains which are controlled by 'lords' (be they archfey, Beast lords, Elemental Primordials, deities, etc), including the Prime Plane, with each domain being an individual world (or rather, crystal sphere in D&D reckoning). So you have 'bubbles' (Domains) floating within spheres floating withing rings - its all very fluid, really. If we assume everything behaves like the Spelljammer model of the Prime Material, then all of this is in constant motion, with some Domains revolving around larger ones, and some in connected groups (the Triad), while others are 'rogue' and pass dangerously close to other Domains. That way, when we picture the Feywild, and its many domains, they are never really 'fixed' to one-another, and distance between places are subject to constant change. Each sphere becomes a mystical version of a galaxy - a dimension if you will.
Its is only symmetrical in form, not function. I will admit I still have a few bugs to work out with this new one. While some things work-out really cool, with other aspects I am running into a wall ATM.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 20:31:12
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Okay, FINALLY home and I was able to throw this together -
Mark's Cosmology
Its pretty basic right now. I didn't add the Elemental spheres (planes) to the over-model yet (not sure how to do that), nor did I add-in the para-elemental planes (which would be floating between the primary elemental spheres within the Material Plane). Also, the whole enchilada should be diamond-shaped... right now it looks like it should be called "The Michelen Man Cosmology". 
Each 'tier' should be smaller then the one closer to the center it is adjacent to (obviously the proportions are exaggerated) - The Faery Court and Ravenloft should be smaller then Sigil.... maybe. The 'Heavens' and 'Hells' are just place-holders until I deconstruct those as well. Right now I'm just trying to wrap my head around this whole new concept. The Tiers would also be considered 'coexistant' in Planescape terminology - it would be a matter of how 'deep' one traveled within the cosmology, not how far. Note that this new take turns Ao into a domain-lord (and Crystal Spheres are nothing more then uber-Domains within the Prime Material, where everything is bigger).
Some giants (not all, obviously) call the overlap-regions home, between the Feywild and the Quasi-Elemental Planes (they live on the borders of both). I picture the entire Feywild encircled by an impossibly high & vast Mountain range. This is where there is room for asymmetry - Fire Giants will live much closer to the border with FIRE, whereas cloud giants would live more central to the border-area (the Mountain peaks), and perhaps Mountain Giants on the slopes closer to the Feywild side. Giant-kin would be all over the Feywild and the border-regions, with (greater) Fomorians having their own domains within the Feywild (and constantly besieging parts of Faerie).
All Planer giants are much more powerful then their worldly counterparts (note I put mountain giants in the planes, not hill giants). This is where we see the difference between an Elder Titan and D&D titans. Like the Fey, the earthly giants are pale reflections of their original selves.
If I wanted to add further symmetry (run Quale, RUN!  ), the Djin would take the same role on the Material Tier (living in those border regions), and I suppose I could stick the celestial dragons in the border regions on the Lower (Shadow) Tier. Ergo, all 'great races' that are associated with elements live in the border-realms. It only looks like a enormous mountain range around the Feywild - on the material and Shadow Tiers it could take other forms (like swamps or forests).
Not sure about that yet - still fiddling with this. Obviously post-plague the ring that encompasses the separate Elemental Spheres would have dissolved back into the Malstrom, which would have caused instability (a collapse?) of the quasi-spheres above and below (which means ALL the elemental planes would now be a massive ovoid surrounding all the planes).
So the cosmology as presented is already out-dated. This means the Ethereal and Astral have changed (and could be why the Ethereal doesn't exist in the same manner we used to know it). If the Aether was the medium the Elemental Spheres floated in, and the whole outer circle dissolved back into the Elemental Chaos, the Ethereal would no longer exist as I have depicted there. That means the elemental chaos would now be the border for the Far Realms (which makes sense, I think, because I have it where the elemental chaos is a remnant to what existed before the universe 'came together'). If the Elements were organized the way they were to keep them from expanding and turning the universe back into 'primal soup', then the universe is in-trouble now (and Chthon is rubbing its tentacles together in glee). Aether kept the Far Realms at bay, and now is a time for aberrations to move to the fore.
EGADS! I just justified the Abolethic Sovereignty!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 22:28:12
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That's impressive, you got some skills, where's Mechanus then
very cool with the torus, I remember seeing some physical models speculating the dark matter is in the middle, or maybe some kind of black hole in the Shadowfel, and white in the Feywild
Just to clear up, I abandoned the quasi-elemental planes for giants concept when I realized there are too many creature types based on elements (dragons, eladrin, genies etc.) and some I didn't want to mix together. Then I left room for all possible elemental mixtures divided into two planes, based on two shapes, linear and cyclical, one for Ymir, the other for Asgorath/Io, later the third fey plane grew between them.
And I never liked planar giants, Pathfinder now has the creatures called the gigas, might interest you.
have fun with the designing, I'm going back the fey realms, I decided the major ones and now can fill them up from all the mentioned sources. Only need to come up with a collective name for all exiled out of Feywild, including the Unseelie and the Dreaming Dark. Maybe something simple like the Unseeming or the Cast Outs? The Dreaming Dark could be the source of Ladinion's fall, it would fit on the eastern border and Hanya Maut cause I have Riedra from Eberron nearby. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 00:29:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
where's Mechanus then?
Haven't broken-down where I see the old Great Wheel planes falling out - this is just the over-view of the super-planes. Like i said, this is just a beginning for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
very cool with the torus, I remember seeing some physical models speculating the dark matter is in the middle, or maybe some kind of black hole in the Shadowfel, and white in the Feywild.
I figure each of the three torus' will be filled with bubbles that represent domains (which would include Crystal spheres). The Prime Plane would be filled with an incalculable number (which increases exponentially all the time), but the smaller super-planes of the Feywild and Shadowfel would have much less.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Just to clear up, I abandoned the quasi-elemental planes for giants concept when I realized there are too many creature types based on elements (dragons, eladrin, genies etc.) and some I didn't want to mix together. Then I left room for all possible elemental mixtures divided into two planes, based on two shapes, linear and cyclical, one for Ymir, the other for Asgorath/Io, later the third fey plane grew between them.
This is why I balanced them with the Djen and dragons - each is one of the 'great races' created at the beginning as caretakers of the three 'worlds'. This is also where we lose the symmetry (on a more localized level) - things are not restricted to the areas they are normally found in. A Djen lord could have a Realm within the Feywild, or a Storm giant could have its citadel within the plane of fire, etc. Also, we do not need to assign each elemental region a specific creature-type (there goes that symmetry you so dislike). Some areas align to certain creatures readily enough, but those that don't don't matter. Thats part of its charm - you can spin it any way you like. perahps the creatures that were the caretakers of a certain empty region are long-gone, or they were changed into something else, or were captured and are now enslaved elsewhere. The areas where there are no specific 'guardians' are the most mysterious.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
And I never liked planar giants, Pathfinder now has the creatures called the gigas, might interest you.
I sometimes use the word 'Jotun' in my writing, but I say 'Planer Giant' here so everyone knows what I am talking about. If the gigas are the same, then that would just be a Golarion-specifc term for planer giants (as Jotuns would be to Norse-worshipping peoples). 'Earthly' giants and dragons, much like prime material Fey, have fallen a long way from their semi-divine beginnings. the great part about this is that i can use older and newer versions of the same creatures and keep everything cohesive, like the incompetent giant-kin Fomorian of 1e/2e/3e, and the Uber-Evil and powerful 4e Fomorians, or the nasty Moonshaes Firbolgs (from the Feywild) and the 'nice' variants we have elsewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Have fun with the designing, I'm going back the fey realms, I decided the major ones and now can fill them up from all the mentioned sources. Only need to come up with a collective name for all exiled out of Feywild, including the Unseelie and the Dreaming Dark. Maybe something simple like the Unseeming or the Cast Outs? The Dreaming Dark could be the source of Ladinion's fall, it would fit on the eastern border and Hanya Maut cause I have Riedra from Eberron nearby.
Too bad 'Outsiders' is taken.
Feylost? Hidden folk? Dökkįlfar is over-used I suppose...
'Dark Ones'?
If you give me a list of your fey realms and their relative positions, I can make a representational map like I did with my planer model. I was going to leave the insides of the Torus' and spheres blank to allow whoever wants to design the interiors as they see fit. Yours would could be an example of one variant.
Since I picture the medium the Domains 'float in' to be very fluid (Dreamscape, Aether, and phlogiston), I do not need to assign any specifics for my own usage (and prefer not to - I can make changes on the fly without disrupting anything). Going back to what i said earlier regarding this, the Domains would be 'fixed' in regards to what Prime Realms they border, but could shift around if changes to the cosmos occur (like the Spellplague, or planes dissolving into one-another, or an Over-god makes a power-play, etc). What happens to the universe at-large reflects itself in the Prime material (Yin and yang, as above, so below, etc).
Add to this that I think each of the Prime worlds resonates at a different Quantum frequency (I know - getting a bit too 'Real World' for fantasy), the Domains within the Shadowfel and Feywild can 'phase-in' and 'phase-out' of sync with parts of each world, creating an Eberron-like cosmology with coterminus 'manifest points' appearing randomly and at-need for the DM.
Thus, Eberron's system still fits into the standard D&D model, but it resembles a demi-plane more then the normal planetary system found within a sphere. If I used the Dreaming Dark, I would place Xoriat in one of the 'wild regions' (Dreamscape) in the Upper planes, not within the Feywild-Torus itself. the Nightmare Lands (Ravenloft) I would say were a Dreamscape (Upper plane) Domain, but were pulled-into the Domains of Dread by the Dark Powers (so it retains connections to the Dreamscape while still being in the Lower planes in my cosmology). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2010 00:36:23 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 17:49:41
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quote:
Since I picture the medium the Domains 'float in' to be very fluid (Dreamscape, Aether, and phlogiston), I do not need to assign any specifics for my own usage (and prefer not to - I can make changes on the fly without disrupting anything).
Add to this that I think each of the Prime worlds resonates at a different Quantum frequency (I know - getting a bit too 'Real World' for fantasy), the Domains within the Shadowfel and Feywild can 'phase-in' and 'phase-out' of sync with parts of each world, creating an Eberron-like cosmology with coterminus 'manifest points' appearing randomly and at-need for the DM.
we used the manifest zones in FR for a long time, I know it's better to leave out for other DMs to decide, I need to decide on the terminous points, at least in the Western Heartlands where is the campaign now
that's a cool idea about ''frequencies'', places with a lot of fear and evil would attract the lower frequency realms to manifest
quote:
Too bad 'Outsiders' is taken.
Feylost? Hidden folk? Dökkįlfar is over-used I suppose...
'Dark Ones'?
Feylost is good, but would be redundant, there's already too many fey-this and fey-thats, Hidden folk is suited for gnomes, the Dark Ones are those creatures from Fiend Folio. I'm going with the Nevernever, borrowed from Dresden, there it's a term for Spiritworld, here a realm of eternally lost and cursed fey.
quote:
If you give me a list of your fey realms and their relative positions, I can make a representational map like I did with my planer model.Yours would could be an example of one variant.
Here's what I have so far ...
The tree-plane is enrooted in the Elemental Core, and another primordial plane is coilded around it. Demiplane of Shadow fills the rest. The tree-plane is divided into the Feywild and Nevernever.
Faerie, the heart of Feywild, echoes Faerun. Note that the geography of the Realms I use quite different. Golarion's Varisia forms a landbridge between the Sword Coast and Moonshaes, there would be not much of the ethereal sea between them. A few examples of locations and sites within Faerie:
Seelie Court, a meeting place of the sidhe in central Faerie, it would have a site similar to Narnia's Stone Table, sometimes visited by the Lion and Unicorn. Borders the Green Fields in Faerun.
Evergold (source: Planes of Chaos), it's terminus point is the big lake in Amn.
Deep Faerie where is the queen's realm, the Cradle of Life, a hyper-real place high on positive energy, is an exception, it does not echo the Prime but is connected with the outer plane of creation, the one where is the cosmic sun (source: homebrew).
Hovel of Durbin (source: Faeries), in Faerie's Sunset Vale.
Pixie Court at Tallgrass (source: Faeries). Borders the Pelleor prairie or the Shining Plains.
etc.
After Faerie another big realm would be Twilight, it'd be scattered in the Trackless Sea and Underdark, Svartalfheim somewhere around the High Moor and the Quilue's temple. Many other realms it would include, the Badlands (goblinoid), Sands of Time, Ladinion's Echo ... The Court of Stars would be above the Moonshaes, and travel to Evermeet on certain moon phases.
The Deep Wilds are on the outskirts of Faerie, having more in common with the Beastlands. Centered on the Chondalwood, but with pockets everywhere.
The fourth is the Nevernever. Realms in the far north and east, Fe'erost (includes the Feyfrost Forest) and the Dreaming Dark (merged with the dark fey from Ravenloft) are the centers, between them the Realm of Snow Spirits. Hagsend and realms of oriental ogres and goblins.
Anyway I need to do a lot more work, before the campaign shifts there. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 23:50:44
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Arvandor (sources: On Hallowed Ground, Planes of Chaos)
Arvandor is called the High Forest, so it's obvious where the place would be. Maybe that's how Aryvandaar got it's name. The sites:
Grandfather Oak (mobile town) is Faerie's version of the Grandfather Tree, animated by the sun-spirits of Labelas (ancient king)
Ingmar's Brook, a feyroad that leads to Alfheim (Neverwinter Woods)
Giantish ruins, remnants of the realm of Ottar (source: Giantcraft)
Pale Tree, a lodge site, from where hunts are organized into the Prime, primarily for jhaguts (immortal orcs of the High Forest) who's spirits are trapped under the tree
Aerdrie's Floating Palace (avariel, remnants of aeree-fey), above the Faerie's Star Mounts
Crystal Palace by the Evergold, fountain of beauty, parallel to the Highstar Lake, weirdly connected to Brightwater (Esmel) as if there is not a geographical distance between them
Everchanging Palace, a monument to trickery, along the Laughingflow in the Evermoors
nearby is the ratatosk settlement of Gnarl where one of the roots of the World Tree leads into the Elemental Core
Many-Splendored Tower (or Gwyllachaightaeryll in one of the Talfiric languages), arcane center of the realm, everything from battle magic to the arts
Araushnee's Grove, Dire Wood, close to the Star Mounts, nearby is a gate that leads to Sylvania in Chondath's Faerie
Roaring Gate, a conduit to the Hellgate Dell
Sparkling Sea, southwestern border of Arvandor, parallel to the mouth of Dessarin, and the sea-elven city of Mallintherial to the Umberlee's Cache
Silverflow river, Unicorn Run
Evergold river, Delimbiyr
Brandywine river, Dessarin
Highhunt river, Heart Blood
lake Goneril, in the Evermoors
Hill of the Dancing Man (korreds), one of the Lost Peaks
Svartalfheim, parallels the Sharnlands
Fungal Forest (source: Faeries), parallels Araumycos
Endless Caverns (source: Faeries), leads into the Endless Caverns |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 03:05:24
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I'm doing a Nentir Vale/FR conversion map ATM, but when I'm done I'll try my hand at mapping Faerie.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Feylost is good, but would be redundant, there's already too many fey-this and fey-thats, Hidden folk is suited for gnomes, the Dark Ones are those creatures from Fiend Folio. I'm going with the Nevernever, borrowed from Dresden, there it's a term for Spiritworld, here a realm of eternally lost and cursed fey.
Felshee?
Or FelSidhe, or Felsith, or just 'Sith' (a bit over used, but that term was used for RL's dark Elves). Then again, The Shadow Rift seems like a good coterminus domain - the top would be in the Feywild, and the bottom of the chasm would be in the Shadowfel.
'Umbraloi' (Shadow-Folk) could work, but that sounds more like a specific creature then an over-group. Umbralost? Probably better for another group in the Shadowfel.
'Dwellers in Darkness', Deepfey, Forlorns, Morlostt, Ur-Shay, Darklings, Night Court, Dökkinder, Shadowkyn, Dispossessed, Alfarga, The Wasted, Forsaken (borrowed from WoW), The Harrowed (borrowed from Deadlands), the Forsworn, Eremetic, The Fallen, Boogans, Defilers, The Cloven, Alfspurned or Feyspurned, the Ebon Throng, The Horde, the Host or Felhost.....
Need more? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 14:13:47
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quote:
Felshee?
Or FelSidhe, or Felsith, or just 'Sith' (a bit over used, but that term was used for RL's dark Elves). Then again, The Shadow Rift seems like a good coterminus domain - the top would be in the Feywild, and the bottom of the chasm would be in the Shadowfel.
That's what I thought, Van Richten's Guide to Shadow Fey is the only 3e Ravenloft book we got, need to put it to some use.
Felshee sounds good, and opens up a possiblity to connect them with the nalfeshneees.
I wanted ''Sith'' for a specific type of the deep fey, with a passionate chaotic philosophy (for me it's the jedi who are evil ;)
quote:
'Umbraloi' (Shadow-Folk) could work, but that sounds more like a specific creature then an over-group. Umbralost? Probably better for another group in the Shadowfel.
'Dwellers in Darkness', Deepfey, Forlorns, Morlostt, Ur-Shay, Darklings, Night Court, Dökkinder, Shadowkyn, Dispossessed, Alfarga, The Wasted, Forsaken (borrowed from WoW), The Harrowed (borrowed from Deadlands), the Forsworn, Eremetic, The Fallen, Boogans, Defilers, The Cloven, Alfspurned or Feyspurned, the Ebon Throng, The Horde, the Host or Felhost.....
Need more?
I like the Forsworn and Felhost. And for a realm, Harrowhel or Harrowfel, and the Boogalands, that'd be for the bogies.
You're right about ''Umbra' in the Shadowfel', already used ''Nidalf Umbra'' for a Talfiric shadow-realm that I made from Golarion's Nidal.
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Edited by - Quale on 29 Oct 2010 14:14:50 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 16:41:09
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Dont want to interrupt the lore flow you guys are generating but there are some interesting things to steal from WoD and their changeling realm of Arcadia.
The fey place harbors a group called the Daoine, who are experts on Fae law. They specialise in curses (hexes and geas type magics) and employ them to cajole other for their own amusement or when hired by a higher court to enforce a new (capricious) law. Some daoine have been in office for so long their surrounding domains are filled with malformed (unseelie) fey punished for (minor) transgressions.
The power of words is especially strong in the deepest parts of the Feywild, partly because of its close connection to the Plane of Dreams. Truenaming likely originated from study of the Feywild, as all things seem "more true" in those parts of the Feywild (easier to come by the knowledge of true names aswell). Swearing an oath sometimes spontaneously generates a geas, making a (limited) wish have a random chance of coming true and cursing someone has significant repercussions.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 10:37:24
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That's a good idea about truenaming, I planned to do something with Nobanion and Lurue for that part. In the area parallel to the Lands of the Lion and Tharsult, it will be called Arborea, and the pastoral bits from Arcadia (not from WoD, Planescape) in Akanal and Chondath.
I know nothing about WoD, if you know any more cool information post.
------
Continuing with the locations from Faeries:
Sands of Time, borders the Sword in Anauroch
Badlands, a realm of forsaken fey, starts from the Goblin Marches, then extends into the unseelie realms
Great Scar, would be a part of Twilight, from the Fallen Lands to Farsea Marshes and to the Forest of Wyrms where the unseelie breed a jabberwock
Bottomless Pit, near Hill's Edge and the Skull Gorge, cavern complexes where unwanted doorways are disposed of, it'd have incursions of fog, shadow and death giants
Between, a part of Twilight ruled by the Forsvorn, it'd exist on the Shadowfel as well, depending if it's a polar night or day
Canyon Maze of the Black Horn minotaurs, Swagdar in Dambrath
also
Myth Adofhaor in Arvandor where would Labelas' vanishing tower appear
north of the Laughingflow, the Trollmoors
maybe the Feyfrost Forest for the Coldwood |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 18:42:20
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I have an idea in-mind for Faerie when I'm done with my current project - it should be pretty cool (if it comes out anything like how i imagine it).
I like the True-naming thing, and once-again that shoe-horns beautifully with my 'cosmic model'.
Since I think the Feywild is a layer between the Heavens and the Material world, and the Music of the Spheres originates in the heavens (making true-naming, Words of power, Sibilant Chord, etc, more powerful then Arcane magic), it stands to reason that fey magic is actually a reflection f true Divine Magic (manipulating the very nature of the universe itself to achieve direct results).
Also, fey are known for their music, and the Drow are apparently afraid of that, so it all ties together (in Folklore, humans who were 'glamoured' were usually done-so while listening to 'faery music').
So we have the Material World (the four elements and the Prime), and we have the Heavens and Hells. The Feywild is a reflection of the material world upon the Heavens, whilst the Shdowfel is the shadow of the Material world cast upon the hells. Ergo, nearly everything in both should have real-world counterparts.
I had it where nightmares were part of the Dreamtime (which surrounds the Feywild), but I think that nightmares should now emanate from the Shadowfel instead. 'Good Dreams' should come from above, and 'bad sendings' should come from below. I need to re-draw my model again so that the Dreamtime and Umbral Wastes touch (like two bowls, one inverted, and the three tiers between them). Two bad a Yin-Yang doesn't work in three dimensions (that would work for a cool Oriental variant of the Great Wheel though).
So if I use the term 'Eldritch' to describe the magic of the Heavens (including Fey, Bardic, Rune, Power-Word, ect) and 'Arcane' to describe magic of the Material Plane, what term what I use for 'Black Magic'? 
'Shadow Magic' is SO last decade. I need a new umbrella-term for all forms of insidious, Fiend-related magics (Necromancy, demonology, Hex-magic {curses}, VooDoo, etc). Maleficium or Maleficarum?
Hmphhh... maybe I'll just stick with 'black magic' - its simple enough. Or maybe just Necromancy (although D&D has gotten that confused with death-related magic, specifically).
And Quale, I still have no idea what the heck to do with Mechanus. In my Cosmology 'Law' lies at the center of all things, and Chaos outside of the universe (with Chthon and aberrations). I suppose I could stick it in the Outlands, inside the base of the spire (which you will note goes in both directions in my model).
EDIT: Thinking on this more, I really like that idea - I think the Spire itself will be Mechanus!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2010 19:08:26 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 17:08:21
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quote:
Hmphhh... maybe I'll just stick with 'black magic' - its simple enough. Or maybe just Necromancy (although D&D has gotten that confused with death-related magic, specifically).
And Quale, I still have no idea what the heck to do with Mechanus. In my Cosmology 'Law' lies at the center of all things, and Chaos outside of the universe (with Chthon and aberrations). I suppose I could stick it in the Outlands, inside the base of the spire (which you will note goes in both directions in my model).
EDIT: Thinking on this more, I really like that idea - I think the Spire itself will be Mechanus!
Black magic is the best term, that's what I use for my homebrew anti-god of pure evil and curses. Necromancy, there is white and black.
My plane of Dwolanx has on one side the Outlands, below the ground and on the other side are the cogs and wheels of Mechanus. The Spire interchanges with Axis of Pathfinder, it's like an axle. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 05:48:54
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That works for me - so be it.
Mechanus becomes the 'underbelly' of the Outlands, which slowly turns at the center of the universe. Its appropriate, since I use Gray's model now, with the Great wheel being a vast machine - the Modrons should be 'beneath it', keeping the whole thing working.
I may just go the WoT route with my homebrew world and give both 'sides' of magic their own setting-specific names.
Don't get me wrong - I still feel magic is 'good' or 'evil' based upon its use, NOT from whence it is drawn. The destructive power of the lower planes can be used to stop an evil tyrant, for example. And 'radiant' magic (that which comes from 'above') can be used for evil (in fact, my main empire is just that - A 'holy Roman Empire' taken to its hateful extreme).
I may even use the dark/light sides of magic with the sexes, but that was used in both WoT and SoT, so its very derivative (unless I associate the dark magic with women... that could work...)
Obviously like everything else, my cosmology and my magic system are both WIPs. I may have to change how magic works based upon my model of the planes
Divine magic
Fey Magick
Arcane Magic
Dark Magic
Demonology
So everything 'above' becomes eldritch magic, and everything below becomes 'Black magic', and arcane magic is Elementalism.
Hmph... still not thrilled with that... I may may just simplify it to -
Arcane
Elementalism
Eldritch
Ergo, the name would simply imply the planer 'direction' the source lies in. That would also fit FR's model better then the way I had it - Arcane energy appears to be filtered radiant energy.
I suppose I could always go with the system created in Master of Five Magics - great book, BTW*. then I would have separate title for each type of Magic-User (Mage, Wizard, Sorceror, Theumaturgist, and Alchemist).
* 'Great' in that it uses a very well-thought out system of magic, not particularly for its writing or story. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2010 19:17:44 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 22:04:36
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Personally I just use arcana for everything, there are too many magic systems to categorize them, once made a big list, even black magic could be for good purposes.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 04:23:56
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Thats why I think rather then go by type, I will just use the terms 'Eldritch' and 'Arcane' to specify direction of source.
I'm connecting magic to the planes, so it has to fit with my cosmology. If pure Radiant (Divine) energy sits at the top, then Pure Evil should sit at the bottom (which wouldn't be shadow - Shadow magic is just a step toward Black Magic. Ergo, as the Great Wheel turns, positive Energy flows toward the negative pole at the bottom.
So plenty of magical paths, schools, and professions could possibly exist, but the energy itself should have two faces, just as it does in FR (or SW, or WoT, or SoT, etc).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 13:34:14
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so what source would be the rune magic/sygaldry, eldritch or arcane?
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I've decided on the fey powers, Talfiric and PS Celtic pantheon will merge (and the Vanir). E.g. Chauntea (Danu, Titania, Earthmother) will have four faces, from spring to autumn her realm will be in the Feywild, in the winter she'll go to Kroetus in the Fugue (homebrew version of Jergal, Chronus and Groetus) as the Blood Mother, requiring sacrifices. The Court of Stars will be Lurue's, Child of Mystery, but on Greengrass she'll move to Dweomerheart as the Queen of Dreams or something. Similar with Malar, there will be four archetypes, the beast, stalker, leader of the great hunt and a lone huntsman. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 14:52:50
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Nephandus, a collective name for nepharious sources of magic, might fit for the "downward" magic side. This would include infernalism, diabolism, psionics drawn from or enhanced by the Far Realms, shadow magic, black necromancy, dementism, witchcraft and pact magics.
______
Nereids, the fey of saltwaters, would habite the Feywild parts of the great seas of Toril. I would give them their own political power struggles, which decide who will become consorts/advisors to the (local) major sea powers (in Toril this would be Umberlee, Deep Sashelas, Valkur, and Ishtishia). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 18:00:14
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Interesting, Bladewind - I had though to connect psionics to the upper planes, as a form of 'purer' magic (like divine magic, it doesn't need components or rituals - it just manifests as a force of will).
But you've made me realize that even psionics can have two 'faces'. Its becoming harder to keep my two-pole model; Gary's four-pole sytem worked so damn well.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
so what source would be the rune magic/sygaldry, eldritch or arcane?
I feel rune magic is the written form of the Language Primeval, which sung to the Music of the spheres becomes the Sublime Song. It taps directly into the creative forces of the universe (the demiurge in your cosmology), which in turn comes 'from above' (Arcane).
BTW, in trying to build a 'fey Tongue', I've worked-out that Rūn means 'receptacle', or 'Holder' in Olde Shide. This way it works for both Rune, and for Fae-rūn.
And 'Fae' means life, of course.
Faer = The energy of life itself (note that the word means 'magic' in Drow). Ergo, the 'fey' were the spirits of life-energy, normally hidden from the mortal world behind the veil of the Feywild. La'Shay (literally, 'The Shide') tapped into that plane and those energies.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I've decided on the Fey powers, Talfiric and PS Celtic pantheon will merge (and the Vanir). E.g. Chauntea (Danu, Titania, Earthmother) will have four faces, from spring to autumn her realm will be in the Feywild, in the winter she'll go to Kroetus in the Fugue (homebrew version of Jergal, Chronus and Groetus) as the Blood Mother, requiring sacrifices. The Court of Stars will be Lurue's, Child of Mystery, but on Greengrass she'll move to Dweomerheart as the Queen of Dreams or something. Similar with Malar, there will be four archetypes, the beast, stalker, leader of the great hunt and a lone huntsman.
I planned on merging parts of the Norse, celtic, and fey panthens together - you may have saved me some work.
I was also going to bring-in a couple of Finnish, Sumerian, and Vedic powers (to make the whole thing more universal); for instance, Mielikki is a Toriliian/Finnish aspect of Ki. Too bad Denning made Obadai the progenitor of the Stone Giants - I could have connected him to Obad-hai easily if he had been the father of Wood Giants instead. I figure Obad-Hai (GH) and Sylvanus are really one and the same, or rather, both are aspects of an older (celtic/Fey?) power. Although Planesacepe kept them separate, in retrospect we now know much of Planescape's lore was inaccurate (about how many deities are just aliases of other gods).
I think each world should have a separate goddess of magic - a sentience unique to that world's 'Weave' (or web, or dweomerfield, or 'Flow', etc). However, having a being represent the nature of magic, like Lurue, works for me. Also a separate (usually male, but not necessarily) God of magic to represent the actual rituals and spells required (and that god would interact more with mortals then the other two). In most cases the male god of magic-use should be an ascended mortal from that world (representing the 'love affair' he and magic have for each other).
So we get a set of 'old gods' that were born to their divinity, and a secondary group of world-specific powers that have ascended. The Celtic/Fey/Vanir pantheon you suggest would make a viable group of 'Olde Gods', which fits well with pre-Christian beliefs (like those of the Celts). I say pre-Christina because I am speaking in RW terms, so in D&D it would be pre-human powers.
And now for some strange reason, the idea of Baat'rachi, Lord of the depths, popped into my head. I suppose Panzuriel would make a good candidate as the template for that aspect. There are a group of tritons somewhere in the SS that are connected to his myth, IIRC.
After all, if we are going to make a Fey/Talfiric pantheon, might as well figure-out who was in the pantheons of the other three creator Races (and Gray, feel free to chime in here - I know you had plenty of ideas from your CK articles).
One last thing, related to fey, and also related to over-pantheons (which is partly what you are accomplishing here). Tharizdun, Shothrogot, and Ghaunadar are all apparently related, but the 'pecking order; appears to be a bit messed up. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me (although I don't have access to the Dragon #361 article), but I would think that at least one of them should be the 'over-aspect', which created the two world-specific aspects. IMHO, Tharizdun (being so iconic) should be the Elder Aspect, and Ghaunadar and Shothrogot should be world-specific aspects (as I stated many times before, I think nearly all 'original' deities are nothing more then the avatars of much higher beings - TRUE Gods).
However, without having access to those articles (which I believe should have come-out during the 'free trial' period), I can't say for sure. According to the Wiki (which I never trust), it says Shothrogot was an aspect of Ghaunadar, which makes very little sense to me - why would an aspect have an aspect? 
Either way, Tharizdun is considered the same as The Dark God, who is accredited for corrupting the first Seelie Court, so he bears mentioning. I also find the story of the Scorpion Crown (GH) interesting - it has many similarities to Realmspace's Crown of Horns, which I have associated with the Fey as well (the Diamond in the crown). Seems this guy has a thing for 'Crowns of Corruption'.
Also, while trying to pursue this new avenue of research (finding 'old gods' of the Creator Races), I've discovered that 'Elder Evils' have branched-off as well - there are Elemental, Eternal, and Abolethic 'Elder Evils' now.
Which actually works for me - I LOVE categories.
In my Cosmology, Elemental Evils simply become corrupted Ordials (that group the Primordials is part of).
Anyhow, I think the Elder evils, and Dark and Scaley Gods from Monster Mythology would work to flesh-out other Creator Pantheons. We could theoretically build those proto-pantheons and figure-out how they interacted with one another. I was thinking that humans were the first to have ascended mortals become gods, but the Fey pantheon disproves that. Perhaps each of the other three Creator races venerated only a single Elder God (or at least, one main one), and the rest of the pantheons were ascended Sarrukh, Batrachi, and Aeriee.
Still, Jergal is a tough one - we didn't have an insectoid Creator Race. I know he's connected to the Spellweavers and thri-Kreen, but I think his appearance is more based on them having been his original worshipers, rather then he being 'from them'. If anything, I think he is a Faerunian aspect of DEATH itself. If I wanted to connect him to other death-like figures, I would say he belongs to the same group as Charon (an ultraloth) and the marraenoloths under his command. So now all we have to do is figure out which of the creator races would have associated with 'loths.
My guess would be the Batrachi... it appears they came first, plus they just feel right to me.
And you are probably wondering why I am clogging-up your thread again with these side-things: Its just that I don't want unnecessary redundancy, so to avoid that I must keep in mind what I want in the Heavens, Hells, and Shadowfell, while considering whats in the Feywild. For instance, are Shadowfey better off in the Feywild, or Shadowfel? That sort of thing.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2010 18:21:21 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 00:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Nereids, the fey of saltwaters, would habite the Feywild parts of the great seas of Toril. I would give them their own political power struggles, which decide who will become consorts/advisors to the (local) major sea powers (in Toril this would be Umberlee, Deep Sashelas, Valkur, and Ishtishia).
I keep them in the greek areas of my Realms, parallel to Aleaxtis and Akanal, the area is known as the Shoal Turfs. My version of Chessenta is much more maritime.
Looking the Changeling and Dark Ages wiki, surprising how is it similar the concepts I had for the fey, like the soul merging and emotions.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I feel rune magic is the written form of the Language Primeval, which sung to the Music of the spheres becomes the Sublime Song. It taps directly into the creative forces of the universe (the demiurge in your cosmology), which in turn comes 'from above' (Arcane).
yea, I guess it belongs in the Arcane, a way to record and adapt outsider magic to the prime, tough not all is of the language primeval, only the elder runes. The runetongue that Mintiper speaks would be too powerful.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, in trying to build a 'fey Tongue', I've worked-out that Rūn means 'receptacle', or 'Holder' in Olde Shide. This way it works for both Rune, and for Fae-rūn.
And 'Fae' means life, of course.
Faerun means ''one land'' in canon, I think the fey words have at least double meanings
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was also going to bring-in a couple of Finnish, Sumerian, and Vedic powers (to make the whole thing more universal); for instance, Mielikki is a Toriliian/Finnish aspect of Ki. Too bad Denning made Obadai the progenitor of the Stone Giants - I could have connected him to Obad-hai easily if he had been the father of Wood Giants instead. I figure Obad-Hai (GH) and Sylvanus are really one and the same, or rather, both are aspects of an older (celtic/Fey?) power. Although Planesacepe kept them separate, in retrospect we now know much of Planescape's lore was inaccurate (about how many deities are just aliases of other gods).
well, I keep fey restricted to the european mythologies, Ki or Ninhursag could easily fit with the Earthmother, but for that area I use Tiamat, there were two ancient pantheons in my history, one from Azlant, the other from Lomarnu (Lemuria analog) where gods of the lost creator races were worshipped, and the Sumerians were survivors from that sunken civilization.
Obadai for me is a better name than ''Fuirgar'', I used him to introduce the Toblakai from Malazan for the eastern stone giants.
Obad-hai, Rillifane, Silvanus, Relkath, Emmatiensien etc. are all very similar.
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Originally posted by Markustay
So we get a set of 'old gods' that were born to their divinity, and a secondary group of world-specific powers that have ascended. The Celtic/Fey/Vanir pantheon you suggest would make a viable group of 'Olde Gods', which fits well with pre-Christian beliefs (like those of the Celts). I say pre-Christina because I am speaking in RW terms, so in D&D it would be pre-human powers.
It could work that way, personally I don't follow canon that much. My story is that before the current Faerunian pantheon there were local RW-PS pantheons, then Ragnarok, Avatar Crisis, Dawn Cataclysms and Titanomachies happened and what was left became the Faerunian/human pantheon, the fey powers bound themselves and merged with the gods, fey aren't religious, they did not have gods only the best among them.
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Originally posted by Markustay
After all, if we are going to make a Fey/Talfiric pantheon, might as well figure-out who was in the pantheons of the other three creator Races (and Gray, feel free to chime in here - I know you had plenty of ideas from your CK articles).
Anyhow, I think the Elder evils, and Dark and Scaley Gods from Monster Mythology would work to flesh-out other Creator Pantheons. We could theoretically build those proto-pantheons and figure-out how they interacted with one another. I was thinking that humans were the first to have ascended mortals become gods, but the Fey pantheon disproves that. Perhaps each of the other three Creator races venerated only a single Elder God (or at least, one main one), and the rest of the pantheons were ascended Sarrukh, Batrachi, and Aeriee.
My guess would be the Batrachi... it appears they came first, plus they just feel right to me.
to me it was the fey, but that was before planets and gods, only the ethereal. Of the creator races the batrachi should be the first, logically. Of the current gods, Shar and Selune, but personally they became gods much later.
the Western Hearlands/Talfiric campaign area is my interest, the rest is too time consuming.
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However, without having access to those articles (which I believe should have come-out during the 'free trial' period), I can't say for sure. According to the Wiki (which I never trust), it says Shothrogot was an aspect of Ghaunadar, which makes very little sense to me - why would an aspect have an aspect?
Either way, Tharizdun is considered the same as The Dark God, who is accredited for corrupting the first Seelie Court, so he bears mentioning. I also find the story of the Scorpion Crown (GH) interesting - it has many similarities to Realmspace's Crown of Horns, which I have associated with the Fey as well (the Diamond in the crown). Seems this guy has a thing for 'Crowns of Corruption'.
That part about the Ur-Flan is one of a few things I stole from GH for FR. They are the same to me, just pick one, Tharizdun, Moander, Jubilex etc.
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Still, Jergal is a tough one - we didn't have an insectoid Creator Race. I know he's connected to the Spellweavers and thri-Kreen, but I think his appearance is more based on them having been his original worshipers, rather then he being 'from them'. If anything, I think he is a Faerunian aspect of DEATH itself.
Maybe Jergal's appearance is what he will look like at the end of time, being the fatalistic type, I pictured a story where the Great Race of Yith (Lovecraft's) made a pact with Jergal to incarnate as spellweavers in the future after predicting their destruction from the flying polyps (sharns). They'll be a part of the Far Realms hegemony at the end of time, opposed to the race of destiny.
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If I wanted to connect him to other death-like figures, I would say he belongs to the same group as Charon (an ultraloth) and the marraenoloths under his command. So now all we have to do is figure out which of the creator races would have associated with 'loths.
There's also Ygorl, who looks like the grim reaper. I've connected the 'loths with rakshasas rather than any creator race. They are a fake creator race, of light and the dark, the grand illusion, the Maya, the sixth element.
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And you are probably wondering why I am clogging-up your thread again with these side-things: Its just that I don't want unnecessary redundancy, so to avoid that I must keep in mind what I want in the Heavens, Hells, and Shadowfell, while considering whats in the Feywild. For instance, are Shadowfey better off in the Feywild, or Shadowfel? That sort of thing.
I'm glad you post here, the eldritch and word magic part is something I forgot to use, now I know how my Demiplane of Shadow, the Ethereal and my three inner planes interact. Note that this thread is not about canon, whatever crazy theory is welcomed. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 01:15:08
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"I figure Obad-Hai (GH) and Sylvanus are really one and the same, or rather, both are aspects of an older (celtic/Fey?) power. Although Planesacepe kept them separate, in retrospect we now know much of Planescape's lore was inaccurate (about how many deities are just aliases of other gods)." (From MTs larger post)
IMG, Silvanus is only known by that name in the Vilhon and around the Lake of Steam; in the North and elsewheres, he's mostly known as The Green Man, which (IMO) was the inspiration for both Obad-Hai and Silvanus. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:27:46
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Correct.
Silvanus was actually an artificial monicker attached to a plethora of Celtic 'earth gods' - the name itself is NOT celtic, and the original names are almost all lost. Sylvanus is an amalgam of those deities that got rolled into the Roman pantheon.
Sucellus would be the Fey/Celtic god, and probably the arch-type for the whole 'god of forests' genre. In most old religions, there is usually a male and female pair representing each of the major concepts (the male god represents planting, and the female the fertile earth). Chauntea then becomes an aspect of the female archtype (whom I simply regard as 'Earthmother', since its the most generic, and a term that could be used to describe said aspects on nearly any world).
And whereas Sucellus represent 'the gather' in early man, Herne (The Wild Huntsman) represents 'the hunter'. So you have the early survival concepts in the two male gods, and the early 'Hearth' concepts in their female counterparts - the home and child-bearing. Although in FR 'War' began with the gods, I think the concept of war was an offshoot of the hunter, who would have come first. Man did not learn to hunt other men until after he learned to hunt animals. Note most early war-gods (including Aries) are often depicted with horns, just like the Huntsman.
But now I'm wandering into RW religious philosophy and mythology. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Fey realms
