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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 07:20:18
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Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 07:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!
Larloch wouldn't be Larloch if he was blasting people to smithereens, just as Elminster wouldn't be Elminster if that's how he solved all his problems. Even arguably the strongest spellcaster... existing... in the Realms wouldn't survive long out in the open, blowing things up for kicks.
Like I said, it needs to be about Larloch being Larloch, and nothing else, otherwise they ruin both the novel and the character. While we all, here, might understand the "big bad unknowable" nature of Larloch and understand that he's a force of nature, not just another bad guy for your PC's to run through, the wider audience likely doesn't: presenting him thus in a novel both reveals his methods and schemes to the readers, and identifies him as being what he should be for the rest.
As for not being interesting, well, I suppose that's a matter of taste. I much prefer Larloch as a genius puppet master doing things no one else can even dream of because of his power and connections than as just a bigger badder version of any other evil mage we've seen before. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 07:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!
Larloch wouldn't be Larloch if he was blasting people to smithereens, just as Elminster wouldn't be Elminster if that's how he solved all his problems. Even arguably the strongest spellcaster... existing... in the Realms wouldn't survive long out in the open, blowing things up for kicks.
Hence my phrase: on occasions.
I don't expect him to exterminate his enemies - from lowliest to most powerful - from prologue to epilogue of the novel. Heh, what would remain of the Realms if that were the case?! Talk about a thousand nukes - and more! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 15:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!
With as much arcane power as Larloch controls, who would he need to wield spells against? The guy is insanely high-level himself, and controls scores of liches -- he could easily just send some liches to wipe someone out, if necessary.
Larloch himself acting is on the scale of using a bazooka on a housefly. Yeah, the job gets done, but it's overkill and causes a lot of collateral damage. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 16:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!
With as much arcane power as Larloch controls, who would he need to wield spells against? The guy is insanely high-level himself, and controls scores of liches -- he could easily just send some liches to wipe someone out, if necessary.
Larloch himself acting is on the scale of using a bazooka on a housefly. Yeah, the job gets done, but it's overkill and causes a lot of collateral damage.
Again, you're forgetting that this IS fantasy. And almost anything – from logical to absurd – is possible.
I don't deny that Larloch is far too powerful to deign lift a finger to incinerate or blast his enemies. But an author can present a “believable” opportunity for Larloch's enemies to exploit. Maybe a long-lost Imaskaran artifact – a ring topped by amethyst – that temporarily nullifies ALL his magical defenses, and gives his enemies enough time to hurl powerful spells at him. He wouldn't die – that's too much to ask – but he'd be severely “damaged.” And of course, once the artifact's effects ebb, his defenses return. And to make his enemies pay for daring to inconvenience, or rather “pain” him, he'd personally blast them to cinders.
This reminds me of Vhostym. Needless to say, he is a match for Larloch. But still he was “slain” by Cale, who is a mere priest. And Cale's opportunity is the stupid fact that The Sojourner had an incurable illness. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 16:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!
With as much arcane power as Larloch controls, who would he need to wield spells against? The guy is insanely high-level himself, and controls scores of liches -- he could easily just send some liches to wipe someone out, if necessary.
Larloch himself acting is on the scale of using a bazooka on a housefly. Yeah, the job gets done, but it's overkill and causes a lot of collateral damage.
Again, you're forgetting that this IS fantasy. And almost anything – from logical to absurd – is possible.
I don't deny that Larloch is far too powerful to deign lift a finger to incinerate or blast his enemies. But an author can present a “believable” opportunity for Larloch's enemies to exploit. Maybe a long-lost Imaskaran artifact – a ring topped by amethyst – that temporarily nullifies ALL his magical defenses, and gives his enemies enough time to hurl powerful spells at him. He wouldn't die – that's too much to ask – but he'd be severely “damaged.” And of course, once the artifact's effects ebb, his defenses return. And to make his enemies pay for daring to inconvenience, or rather “pain” him, he'd personally blast them to cinders.
This reminds me of Vhostym. Needless to say, he is a match for Larloch. But still he was “slain” by Cale, who is a mere priest. And Cale's opportunity is the stupid fact that The Sojourner had an incurable illness.
I don't see it. Larloch still has 60+ liches at his command, and he's far more powerful than anything else out there (including Vhostym, I think). It would take a god to strip away his defenses -- or a hell of a lot of spellslingers working in concert, which would be easy picking for the 60+ liches. Larloch is one of the old entities in the Realms, one of the most powerful, and he and his liches have had centuries to prepare his defenses. And we know that Mystra approves of what he's doing.
So attacking him is like attacking a mountain with a BB gun. You're not going to be able to do anything, and the mountain certainly isn't going to respond with an avalanche or volcanic eruption if you try. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 17:56:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Being a puppet master doesn't sound that bad. Though I'll get bored if he remains so all throughout the book. I still prefer him to personally blast his enemies on occasions. What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!
With as much arcane power as Larloch controls, who would he need to wield spells against? The guy is insanely high-level himself, and controls scores of liches -- he could easily just send some liches to wipe someone out, if necessary.
Larloch himself acting is on the scale of using a bazooka on a housefly. Yeah, the job gets done, but it's overkill and causes a lot of collateral damage.
Again, you're forgetting that this IS fantasy. And almost anything – from logical to absurd – is possible.
I don't deny that Larloch is far too powerful to deign lift a finger to incinerate or blast his enemies. But an author can present a “believable” opportunity for Larloch's enemies to exploit. Maybe a long-lost Imaskaran artifact – a ring topped by amethyst – that temporarily nullifies ALL his magical defenses, and gives his enemies enough time to hurl powerful spells at him. He wouldn't die – that's too much to ask – but he'd be severely “damaged.” And of course, once the artifact's effects ebb, his defenses return. And to make his enemies pay for daring to inconvenience, or rather “pain” him, he'd personally blast them to cinders.
This reminds me of Vhostym. Needless to say, he is a match for Larloch. But still he was “slain” by Cale, who is a mere priest. And Cale's opportunity is the stupid fact that The Sojourner had an incurable illness.
I don't see it. Larloch still has 60+ liches at his command, and he's far more powerful than anything else out there (including Vhostym, I think). It would take a god to strip away his defenses -- or a hell of a lot of spellslingers working in concert, which would be easy picking for the 60+ liches. Larloch is one of the old entities in the Realms, one of the most powerful, and he and his liches have had centuries to prepare his defenses. And we know that Mystra approves of what he's doing.
So attacking him is like attacking a mountain with a BB gun. You're not going to be able to do anything, and the mountain certainly isn't going to respond with an avalanche or volcanic eruption if you try.
Well, I do. Now, you're focusing only on the example I gave: the artifact as his enemies' opportunity. I'm no FR writer, so all I give are possibilities, again on the premise that anything can be done in the realm of fantasy.
And since 'tis possibilities we're delving into...I'll stretch it further. If the Imaskaran ring sounds unlikely to sufficiently rend his defenses and hurt him, then how about this:
Larloch invented interconnected portals to 'significant realms' in Faerun – Shade Enclave, Thay, Zhentil Keep, Luscan, Suzail, and Calimshan, for purposes yet unknown. Telamont Tanthul, Szass Tam, Fzoul, The Arcane Brotherhood, The Irone Throne, The Twisted Rune, and the rest of the leaders and prime evil groups of the said realms 'somehow' felt the presence of the portals. Through powerful divination cast by circles of diviner archmages, with the aid of Netherese and Imaskaran artifacts that helped pierced various high-level wards against divination, they located the 'hub' of the portals: Warlock's Crypt. Whatever Larloch planned with those portals, they knew it wouldn't be to the best of their interests. So destroy the portals they must. Unfortunately, what they detected in their realms were just “traces” of the portals – like ghosts that would be given bodies once Larloch activated them from his haven. And they further found out that the only way to destroy those “traces” is to destroy the 'hub' itself. Hence, confront the great lich they should. Combine these powerful, nearly unmatched evil groups and you'll have more than enough NUKES to pulverize even the sturdiest and biggest “mountain.” Again, I don't expect – nor want – Larloch to die in the aftermath. Just hurt. Enough to “prove” that he's not as invulnerable as he and most of us think.
Regarding Vhostym, I'm not sure nor can I say that he's more powerful than Larloch. Though 'tis safe to assume that they're equal. He killed dragons with bare hands and destroyed planets before coming to Toril – yes, you read that right, 'tis indeed plural. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 01:01:19
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I suppose it comes down to how the author handles Larloch: if they handle him as a 20-something-th level spell caster in a realistically D&D big bad evil role, then by all means have him blow stuff up and do all that flashy magic that readers lap up.
However, if you handle him how Ed himself has repeatedly and explicitly stated he should work in the Realms -- a force of nature, an impossible 47th level spell caster capable of accomplishing absolutely anything and everything he so wishes, given the time and the effort -- then it's a completely different story. Like I said: if Larloch is to be novelized, it has to be done properly, expressing him as that force of nature, not just another explosive bad guy who can be realistically challenged by anything short of a god. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 05:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I suppose it comes down to how the author handles Larloch.
That's precisely my point. In any case Ed himself is to write the novel, I fervently hope that he wouldn't use some stupid knights nor the supercilious elves as heroes. I'd welcome almost anything else. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 05:47:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I suppose it comes down to how the author handles Larloch.
That's precisely my point. In any case Ed himself is to write the novel, I fervently hope that he wouldn't use some stupid knights nor the supercilious elves as heroes. I'd welcome almost anything else.
No, it's a point of how the novel has to be written: should Larloch be handled properly, evocations of his crafting will be rare, or, better yet, nonexistent. He has, IIRC, multiple Netherese liches serving him who are more than capable of dealing with any and all threats to his person.
Incidentally, Ed rarely uses elves as main characters (and elves are the most recognizable fantastic humanoid race, so expecting them to not be featured in the Realms is somewhat... foolish), and, reading between your lines, I imagine that the "stupid knights" would be the Knights of Myth Drannor, who would make poor "antagonists" in a novel about Larloch, who is almost certain to defeat his foes. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 05:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I suppose it comes down to how the author handles Larloch.
That's precisely my point. In any case Ed himself is to write the novel, I fervently hope that he wouldn't use some stupid knights nor the supercilious elves as heroes. I'd welcome almost anything else.
No, it's a point of how the novel has to be written: should Larloch be handled properly, evocations of his crafting will be rare, or, better yet, nonexistent. He has, IIRC, multiple Netherese liches serving him who are more than capable of dealing with any and all threats to his person.
Incidentally, Ed rarely uses elves as main characters (and elves are the most recognizable fantastic humanoid race, so expecting them to not be featured in the Realms is somewhat... foolish), and, reading between your lines, I imagine that the "stupid knights" would be the Knights of Myth Drannor, who would make poor "antagonists" in a novel about Larloch, who is almost certain to defeat his foes.
'Properly' is too subjective. And speaking of, I don't know, but perhaps (at least for me) Richard Lee Byers or Paul S. Kemp is better or properly suited for a Larloch novel. Elaine is a good candidate too, but I'm afraid she'd make Larloch 'emo.' I think we've had enough of emo characters already.
Regarding Larloch's 60+ liches, well, you can refer to my prior example. Those cabals of evil groups – headed by Telamont Tanthul, a true master of shadow magic, a type of magic that Larloch himself is hardly familiar of – can take care of them 'properly.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 Oct 2010 06:04:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 14:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Regarding Larloch's 60+ liches, well, you can refer to my prior example. Those cabals of evil groups – headed by Telamont Tanthul, a true master of shadow magic, a type of magic that Larloch himself is hardly familiar of – can take care of them 'properly.'
Larloch isn't familiar with one of his own contemporaries?
And even if Larloch isn't familiar with Shadow Magic (and I'm not sure that he isn't), Larloch is far more powerful with the regular Weave, which is more powerful than the Shadow Weave.
Most liches are going to be at least 18th level, and considering how old the ones Larloch has, I'd say they're all 20+ -- and likely, more than a few of them are way past 20, if not past 30. And he's got 60+ of them. I don't see that Telemont can muster that much arcane firepower. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Oct 2010 14:47:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 15:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Regarding Larloch's 60+ liches, well, you can refer to my prior example. Those cabals of evil groups – headed by Telamont Tanthul, a true master of shadow magic, a type of magic that Larloch himself is hardly familiar of – can take care of them 'properly.'
Larloch isn't familiar with one of his own contemporaries?
And even if Larloch isn't familiar with Shadow Magic (and I'm not sure that he isn't), Larloch is far more powerful with the regular Weave, which is more powerful than the Shadow Weave.
Most liches are going to be at least 18th level, and considering how old the ones Larloch has, I'd say they're all 20+ -- and likely, more than a few of them are way past 20, if not past 30. And he's got 60+ of them. I don't see that Telemont can muster that much arcane firepower.
Larloch's lich-lackeys are impressive enough. But I wouldn't underestimate the Most High – he who led the extermination of far too many Zhentarim as if they're mere flies; he who controls Malygris by sheer will power, and by extension the Cult; he who set Evareska, Waterdeep, Cormyr, and Shadowdale in turmoil; he who now rules Sembia; he who confronted the Chosen and remained virtually unscathed; he who once bound the Lord of the Eight Layer of Hell and repressed his powers. And if 'tis not enough, he had – as I pointed out in my example (one of a myriad of possibilities) – the support of Szass Tam and Thay, Fzoul and Zhentil Keep, The Arcane Brotherhood in Luscan, The Irone Throne in Suzail, The Twisted Rune in Calimshan and all the best spellcasters under their command, not to mention hundreds or even thousands of pay-for-hire wizards who can be used as distractions – enough to give their masters time to render a fatal blow to the lich servants. Once Telamont's allies weakened the liches' defenses, he'd have his archwizards erect a Shadowshell to limit to a considerable degree the Weave-using liches' (his own allies included, of course) abilities to tap magic from the Weave, and then hurl all sorts of powerful shadow magic at them. When the lich servants were bound, if not 'neutralized,' they'd dispel the Shadowshell so their allies could easily use magic again – to finally face the Great Lich. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 Oct 2010 15:54:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 17:05:36
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I think you're underestimating Larloch, his liches, his centuries of experience, and his support from Mystra herself. We're talking about someone described by Ed as a force of nature...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 00:34:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think you're underestimating Larloch, his liches, his centuries of experience, and his support from Mystra herself. We're talking about someone described by Ed as a force of nature...
Indeed.
When Ed wrote "He's probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard right now", he didn't mean "This is Larloch's real definite level", it's a gesture to say "Larloch is extraordinarily dangerous, and in a different league from almost anyone else", just as he's portrayed in every other source.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 01:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think you're underestimating Larloch, his liches, his centuries of experience, and his support from Mystra herself. We're talking about someone described by Ed as a force of nature...
As a matter of FACT, I'm NOT. Why would I rally those powerful evil groups whose accomplishments are exceedingly noteworthy if I underestimate Larloch? I could have used the Most High and his city alone to confront Larloch and his servitors. But despite how much I'm impressed with his power – most specially that he's the only wizard I know who managed to bind with his own magic a Lord of the Eighth (without any aid from ancient artifacts) – I still find it rather unlikely that he'd survive a direct confrontation with Larloch. Hence those evil cabals.
Yet it looks like even Telamont and his allies of formidable powers don't satisfy you... So for the sake of this argument I'd add one more key player: The Seeker. (The name is entirely mine.) He's from a 'race' where Vhostym, The Sojourner, came from. He traveled in various worlds to learn their systems of magic, control them, make himself more powerful, and rid of his potential enemies. He, like Vhostym, also DESTROYED with his bare hands a number of WORLDS and ALL their denizens he found unpleasant or simply judged not worthy to exist at all. In 1374 DR he arrived in Toril and was really awed by how much magic surrounded it and its inhabitants. Hence he vowed to OWN it – and as quickly as he could before one of his 'brothers' or 'sisters' noticed its existence. He performed a ritual – sacrificing a deva and one of Asmodeus's generals – to divine who's the most likely beings - other than the gods themselves – to stop him. That's how he learned of the existence of Larloch. He also found out about the portals and the rallying evil cabals determined to destroy the said magical doorways to their realms. So he joined in the fray!
Now surely someone who's more than capable of destroying multiple worlds can 'take care' of the 60+ liches, if not Larloch himself.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Nov 2010 08:26:53 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 04:35:44
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Despite some considerable points made in this thread, a novel about Larloch still makes little sense to me, to the point that I don't want one. And supposing one is made, I wouldn't include it in my homebrew. I think that no matter who it is that writes extensively about him (as in writing a novel), be it an ace Realms writer like Ed, Elaine, RA, Paul and others, or upstarts, I keep thinking that they'll either make him over-epic unto complete and utter suckage and mockery as per that 2001 Dungeons & Dragons movie (no matter the quality of acting and special effects, the script was 100% pure garbage; they were trying to sell a product - 3e had juss come out - instead of writing a compelling story...contrast that w/the 1st LoTR flick comin out in Dec. of that year, saving fantasy fans the embarassment of the D&D movie), or they'll juss dumb him down like an overpowered villain who doesn't know what to do w/himself or always has flawed plans, akin to Dr. Claw of Inspector Gadget fame. Or they'll juss make him some Emo 'crying on the inside' type villain.
Mind you, this is NOT indicative of Ed, Elaine, RA or others writing ability. Rather, its juss the nature of who and what Larloch is. Really, supposing I owned D&D/FR and then Stephen King wanted to write a Realms novel, I'd tell even him that he could write about anything except Larloch, unless he's a background character and his role is in the proper context of the story, not juss shoe-horning him into it like all the epic foes they put together in that 2001 Dungeons & Dragons garbage movie.
Think about it: Yes, Larloch is extremely powerful, the only (un)living intelligent being that doesn't exist underground from old Netheril, has a cabal of intelligent high powered magically inclined undead in his service, and exists and thrives in one of the most dangerous regions in Toril (Troll Hills and Trollbark Forest region along the Sword Coast). And he's a lich, which is juss *great* for the spook factor. And he studies and scryes the planes, so he's versatile enough to know about Toril, Planescape, and Ravenloft.
But other than that, what does he do? He doesn't cause Baldur's Gate or travellers along the Trade Way any trouble; he doesn't sink ships along the Sword Coast when they get in the vincity of his castle; he doesn't antagonize or seek to steal assets from the Luskan's Arcane Brotherhood or Cormyrean War Wizards or anyone akin to them; he doesn't care much about Szass Tam, the leader of a slaving nation; he doesn't poison the rivers, oceans, mountains or trees around him; he doesn't disrupt the local ecology (rather, I think he and his subject's presence actually tempers all the dangers thereof in that region, making for a balanced ecology!); nor is he doing anything way over his head unto epic lunacy (again, like the examples in the '01 Dungeons and Dragons flick). Rather, all he wants to do is stay in his keep and continue to study magic. This w/Mystra's *FULL* blessing! 
Really, according to Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, all Larloch does is use foolish adventurers who are dumb enough to deliberately wander to his territory ("Of *ALL* the places on Toril, you juss HAD to come to my crypt, eh? Idiot!"). Really, what aspect of his personality *screams* villain, that people so want a book about him? I think people are juss attracted to the freakish amount of power at his disposal, but fail to realize that all canon evidence points out that he's really juss an uberly epic nerd who happens to be an archlich that lived in Netheril, once upon a time! He's not some powerful and paranoid megalomaniac like Manshoon etc. Heck, for all we know, he's more like McLovin from Superbad, juss w/more resources to go off as he pleases.
In my homebrew, other than 2e-3e canon, the only extent of Larloch's presence in civilized lands is that he's got a lackey (a foolish punk who juss HAD to go to Warlock's Crypt one day, having cast Invisibility en route to bypassing the plethora of dangers along the way) in Lathtarl's Lantern, for to keep lines of communication open regarding all the underworld traffic and legit commerce that goes on in that coastal village, when the need or want to buy something arises. Note I didn't say that lackey is Larloch's eyes or ears in that place, as Larloch is too advanced to need him as such!
I still think the best approach is juss to have Larloch and his castle as that guy and that place, whom no matter how powerful PC's get, they should juss stay away from (especially since he isn't disturbing any civilized settlements, and there's been no evidence to the contrary, since -339 DR! ). This as per what Ed Greenwood said a long time ago on the subject. It works perfectly in my homebrew. Plenty of other stirring stories to tell and exciting adventures to explore, w/o Larloch's secret or blatant presence. Dude juss wants to study magic! Unless you're an archmage or a dire fool stumbling into his castle, how are you gonna pique this guy's interest? And even then, he'd juss send you on fetch quests, as per the entry in VGtSC.
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Edited by - bladeinAmn on 01 Nov 2010 04:37:04 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 05:50:32
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Very astutely put, bladeinAmn: I agree almost fully with what you've said, the only deviation being that Larloch is certainly always up to something, and a glimpse of that something could make an interesting novel. As I originally stated, Larloch in a novel has to be a background puppet master, watching and waiting throughout, and being the villain only in that the "evil plan" is of his concoction and under his control, rather than actively being the bad guy and ending up int he final confrontation at the end.
It seems this conversation is running in circles a little bit, so I'll finish what I have to say on the matter how I started it: a Larloch novel would have to be cleverly done, featuring Larloch in a realistic manner, expressing him being an over-arching puppet master type villain just the way he should be used (if at all) in an FR D&D campaign. Mis-use him, even for the sake of making a more "interesting" novel, and he canonically loses credibility as well as (mis)representing him as yet another anthill (termite mound, perhaps) for your PC's to topple. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
Edited by - Sandro on 01 Nov 2010 05:56:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 08:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
Rather, all he wants to do is stay in his keep and continue to study magic. This w/Mystra's *FULL* blessing!
You must have missed that tidbit from Ed saying (I paraphrase) that “Larloch is always up to something EVIL. But since Mystra does not care about alignments, so long the Art is utilized by as many people as possible, she lets him be.” Hence in my sample possibility, just in case you missed that post of mine, I stated that those portals – or rather 'traces' of the portals – he established in several realms are for purposes yet unknown. It just appears to me you cannot even put trust in any authors to 'handle' him well, if not perfectly. Remember that some current FR authors are more than talented enough to make people like – or at the very least, lessen their dislike with– certain characters they initially found annoying or mere garbage. I for one used to dislike Cale – his 'emo-ness,' twisted sense of justice, etc... But after reading a number of novels that feature him, my dislike somehow abated to a degree that I no longer fast-read – as in lightning-fast-read – the pages that 'celebrate' his struggles and stupidity, er, heroism. Now, I am not saying people dislike Larloch. I'm just saying that people who are reluctant, or worse, averse to reading a Larloch novel might have to think twice if the author writing such book is more than capable enough to 'present' a 'believable,' entertaining, and wicked Larloch.
It seems we just have to wait and see if this series, or at least a Larloch novel, becomes a reality. Which isn't really that improbable. Many people clamored NOT to see the Shades in future novels after the conclusion of the RotA. But we still saw them in The Twilight War – and if I may add, they were better portrayed by Paul. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 14:02:51
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Not to intercede with the discussion, but . . . quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I think that no matter who it is that writes extensively about him (as in writing a novel), be it an ace Realms writer like Ed, Elaine, RA, Paul and others, or upstarts, I keep thinking that they'll either make him over-epic unto complete and utter suckage and mockery as per that 2001 Dungeons & Dragons movie
"Upstarts"? Wow, that's harsh.
Even more harsh when you get to the comparison to the 2001 D&D movie (which, for the record, WotC had *very* little to do with, so I hear).
I'm very sorry if you feel that way, BinA!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 19:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not to intercede with the discussion, but . . .
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I think that no matter who it is that writes extensively about him (as in writing a novel), be it an ace Realms writer like Ed, Elaine, RA, Paul and others, or upstarts, I keep thinking that they'll either make him over-epic unto complete and utter suckage and mockery as per that 2001 Dungeons & Dragons movie
"Upstarts"? Wow, that's harsh.
Even more harsh when you get to the comparison to the 2001 D&D movie (which, for the record, WotC had *very* little to do with, so I hear).
I'm very sorry if you feel that way, BinA!
Perhaps he didn't mean 'parvenus,' just 'beginners.' But it doesn't matter much because he already made it quite plain that no FR author – Ed included – deserves to write a Larloch novel. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 05:58:12
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Points well taken, dennis. Good you wrote it in such a way wherein I couldn't jusT miss it!
Erik, LOL! JusT looked at the dictionary meaning of "upstart," and I didn't mean it that way regarding folk like you and other recent Realms writers! Let's jusT say I meant non-veteran Realms writers! I hope you of all non-vets weren't offended, and I'm sure I've taken the time to compliment your work on these boards before!
And I hope you guys (dennis and Erik) and other Realms authors and fans didn't take offense to me thinkin emo dudes like Mr. Cale and others aren't worth their story! Not at all! If that was the case, then I'd dislike everyone's books, including Ed, Elaine, RA, Stephen King's, and yours Erik's! Even more, I wouldn't even be able to dig Darth Vader and Heath Ledger's interpretation of The Joker (my two favourite movie villains). I juss...jusT say its hard to believably picture Larloch as a Dr. Claw type (comedic emo, whether intentional or not) or Dracula type (serious emo).
d[D]ennis, check out this link below. It's Ed speaking on Larloch:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5358
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Edited by - bladeinAmn on 02 Nov 2010 06:06:38 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 14:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn:
Points well taken, dennis. Good you wrote it in such a way wherein I couldn't jusT miss it!
I'm glad you didn't miss it. Honestly, I was kinda annoyed reading 'juss' so many times that I was tempted to PM you. =) Not only in this thread, btw. I don't know if you spell it because that's how you pronounce it in your corner of the world, but for some reason it just got into my rather sensitive nerves. Anyway, it's not really a big deal. Please do not take those highlights as a reproof. They're a joke, really.
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn:
Erik, LOL! JusT looked at the dictionary meaning of "upstart," and I didn't mean it that way regarding folk like you and other recent Realms writers! Let's jusT say I meant non-veteran Realms writers!
Hmm, I don't know what dictionary you're using, but 'tis important to note the authory of Standard American English, Merriam-Webster Dictionary. It defines upstart as one that has risen suddenly (as from a low position to wealth or power): PARVENU; especially: one that claims more personal importance than is warranted. And I bet Oxford Dictionary (the authority of Standard British English) has the same meaning... But at least you clarrified that you only meant 'non-veterans.'
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn:
And I hope you guys (dennis and Erik) and other Realms authors and fans didn't take offense to me thinkin emo dudes like Mr. Cale and others aren't worth their story! Not at all! If that was the case, then I'd dislike everyone's books, including Ed, Elaine, RA, Stephen King's, and yours Erik's! Even more, I wouldn't even be able to dig Darth Vader and Heath Ledger's interpretation of The Joker (my two favourite movie villains). I juss...jusT say its hard to believably picture Larloch as a Dr. Claw type (comedic emo, whether intentional or not) or Dracula type (serious emo).
I can't recall me (or any of those in favor of having a Larloch novel) saying I (they) want Larloch to be portrayed as an emo lich. And I can't recall Ed, RLB, or Paul portraying their villains (Manshoon, Szass Tam, Telamont, etc) as emo. And as I mentioned, the Realms already have a staggering number of 'emo' heroes, why make the villains 'emo' as well?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 12:28:48 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 20:49:51
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So why does this theoretical novel about Larloch have to be about
huge amounts of magic? One thing that could be done without
taking away his aura would be...
say several of his whitting and unwhitting agents, pawns, and
runners all start doing things that are contrary to his wishes
and goals, but he can't find out why, even with the magic abilities
at his command. So he has to get new agents, all who have no idea
who is in control of them, who can't know who he is,
looking into the mess and finding the reason
why? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 02:08:25
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
So why does this theoretical novel about Larloch have to be about
huge amounts of magic?
If you follow this thread closely or well enough, you'd have known these:
Sandro said that he wants Larloch to be 'puppet master.' I said I have no problem with it so long his he blasts his enemies 'on occasions,' because, to quote myself, “What's the use of having so much power if your enemies don't get even a little taste of it?!” Then Wooly said “With as much arcane power as Larloch controls, who would he need to wield spells against?” And I said that this IS fantasy. And almost anything – from logical to absurd – is possible. Hence my example: the 'traces' of Larloch's portals existing for yet unknown purposes in the realms where 'those' evil cabals reside, and the special participation of The Seeker (due to Wooly's incredulity that those evil groups, headed by Telamont, are enough to take Larloch's sevitors down).
And let me reiterate, I don't wish Larloch to keep hurling deadly spells to anyone and anything from prologue to epilogue, just 'on occasions,' (in the same way you'll not find Pug (or Elminster) blasting all his enemies – though he's tempted to – from the beginning to end of every novel where he appears).
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
One thing that could be done without
taking away his aura would be...
say several of his whitting and unwhitting agents, pawns, and
runners all start doing things that are contrary to his wishes
and goals, but he can't find out why, even with the magic abilities
at his command. So he has to get new agents, all who have no idea
who is in control of them, who can't know who he is,
looking into the mess and finding the reason
why?
Hmm, that's an interesting idea.... Like a civil war... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 05:01:33
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-They way I write 'juss' shouldn't have gotten into your sensitive nerves, especially if you're aware as you declared that it's not a big deal. People have different dialects, accents etc. from all over the world, be it by culture or sub-culture. It's not L337 speak, so no one should have it grate on their nerves. Next time PM me if you or anyone else has issue w/how I operate; this in an effort to not derail threads (I wouldn't have responded here in this thread if I knew it got on your nerves as such, as I thought it was simple friendly CK banter). Anything else is akin to politicking (EDIT: not accusing you of it, but that's how things that should be discussed in PM's, but are not, usually threaten to come off as when discussed in threads, regardless of people's original intent). In an effort to not derail the thread, I won't speak on that anymore here.
-I first got acquainted w/the word "upstart" by virtue of the Baldur's Gate series, when an enemy wizard called my PC that. I simply thought it was a compliment of my PC and party growing in stature, much in the same way how Elminster would pop by now and then in the game and comment on the same thing.
-I was the one who said that authors may be tempted into making Larloch an emo lich, in order to 'spice' him up, due to there being little to none evidence in canon that states he's got a villainous nature; this as he's been around I think ever since TSR began pushing FR products in '87, and the fact that Larloch's been a known entity (either by fact or 'legend') since the time of Netheril to whatever present time in everyone's respective homebrew campaigns. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 03 Nov 2010 05:03:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 05:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I was the one who said that authors may be tempted into making Larloch an emo lich, in order to 'spice' him up, due to there being little to none evidence in canon that states he's got a villainous nature; this as he's been around I think ever since TSR began pushing FR products in '87, and the fact that Larloch's been a known entity (either by fact or 'legend') since the time of Netheril to whatever present time in everyone's respective homebrew campaigns.
I don't see any way Larloch would be portrayed as emo, unless the author is strangely fond of making his characters emo. Manshoon and Szass Tam have been around for as long as Larloch, yet I never saw them depicted as emo villains. And since it is Ed who has extensive knowledge about Larloch, including the little fact that Larloch is evil, mayhap this novel should be written by him and him alone. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 06:27:35
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Understood, BinA--clarification noted! 
"Emo" seems to be, in the context of this thread, kind of a bad word. What do folks mean by it?
My own definition of an "emo" character is someone who is annoyingly whiny or prone to long bouts of brooding/ennui, such that that character isn't interesting to read about. Is that what you guys are going for?
Or did you mean a character who thinks a lot and questions his own motives--i.e. is introspective and self-doubting? Because I think all interesting fantasy characters think about their motivations, internal conflicts, and question their beliefs.
I would be interested to hear what characters people think of as "emo."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 07:42:53
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| It's a bad word indeed. For me, an emo character is one who broods A LOT, to the point of not only becoming uninteresting, but annoying too. Perfect examples: Cale and Magadon. Heh, despite that I'm not into fighters or non-wizard assassins as protagonists, I'd rather have Riven as the sole or primary hero in the TW trilogy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 19:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Understood, BinA--clarification noted!
"Emo" seems to be, in the context of this thread, kind of a bad word. What do folks mean by it?
My own definition of an "emo" character is someone who is annoyingly whiny or prone to long bouts of brooding/ennui, such that that character isn't interesting to read about. Is that what you guys are going for?
Or did you mean a character who thinks a lot and questions his own motives--i.e. is introspective and self-doubting? Because I think all interesting fantasy characters think about their motivations, internal conflicts, and question their beliefs.
I would be interested to hear what characters people think of as "emo."
Cheers
Aye, in general the intended meaning is the former. While it's not a term I tend to use (at least not in relation to the Realms), I do believe the most popular poster boy for "emo" characters in the Realms has become Drizzt, with his journal entries normally presented as the truly offending party.#
Personally, I've never had a problem with it, and tend to think that such things tend to lend more to your latter definition than your former (again, within the context of Realms novels), but people will be people and opinions will differ. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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