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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 00:41:52
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Keeping someone/something I like unseen for a very long time only leads me to either of these: boredom or irritation. And I'm beginning to feel the sting of the latter in Larloch's case.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Aug 2010 00:53:46 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 01:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like Larloch, I'm happy with him not receiving much airtime. If he gets put in the spotlight, he'll inevitably get statted out to be just another target for powergamers.
I'm inclined to agree.
Larloch should remain "the Great Unknown," much as Ed has said in the past. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 02:22:13
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I think this applies to what I think about Larloch being the Great Unseen/Unknown:
Limited knowledge of something makes us want to crave for more for the sake of knowing...Abundance of it makes us crave for more, too; only this time, for the sake of finally slaking our thirst.
I forgot where I read it. Must be from one of Coelho's or Allison Burnett's novels.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 08:25:28
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| I prefer Larloch (as most things that ancient) to remain mysterious and part of a loose framework of early history. Usually the filled out details takes away some of the fascination for me, as I prefer loose speculations and unformed ideas I can select from as needed. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 12:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think this applies to what I think about Larloch being the Great Unseen/Unknown:
Limited knowledge of something makes us want to crave for more for the sake of knowing...Abundance of it makes us crave for more, too; only this time, for the sake of finally slaking our thirst.
I forgot where I read it. Must be from one of Coelho's or Allison Burnett's novels.
Ah, but "once the secret of a trick is revealed to a person, that one can no longer fully enjoy subsequent performances of that magic, as the amazement is missing." Quoted from the Wikipedia entry on Magic (Illusion); the source of the quote is, very appropriately, unrevealed and "citation needed"  .
As an FR gamer first and foremost, I personally do not mind some "unknowns" in the world, to fit my own requirements as a DM. Larloch has been several things to several groups over the years, and I liked him like that.
On the subject of villains - the Dragonlance line had a series centered on Villains (covered, amongst others, I think the rather dashing Fewmaster Toede). I have not read any of them, but how did those work out? |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 13:37:04
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| Something which probably annoyed many "Realms-haters" was a critical amount of novels about the movers and shakers, how they popped up here there and everywhere with blazing spells and doing whatever struck their fancy, while on the other hand you got detailed reports on e.g. the Zhentarim (pure cannon-fodder in most books), the Twisted Rune or the like, who wormed their way into the Realms' politics and what have you, only to be thwarted by said megalomaniacs. While such novel make some good rreading, no doubt, they often enough turned FR lore upside down. Hence I'd rather see something about lesser lights, say some 8th to 15th level chap or lass. I for one wouldn't mind a novel about that archetypical drow male Valas Hune of the WotSQ series. And no, he ain't required to become a Chosen of *enter a deity of your fancy* at the end of it. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 13:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Something which probably annoyed many "Realms-haters" was a critical amount of novels about the movers and shakers, how they popped up here there and everywhere with blazing spells and doing whatever struck their fancy, while on the other hand you got detailed reports on e.g. the Zhentarim (pure cannon-fodder in most books), the Twisted Rune or the like, who wormed their way into the Realms' politics and what have you, only to be thwarted by said megalomaniacs.
That's why I mentioned that even though the villains are of considerable power, the plot of the book need not involve incredible feats (summoning a tsunami in the Sea of Falling Stars to engulf the surrounding realms, or controlling dragons and demons to wipe out Evermeet (though it sounds rather interesting and satisfying. The fewer elves in the Realms, the less annoyed I'd be. That's how I "love" them  ), or staging a "fist-fight" between the aboleths and the phaerimm). The series could simply dwell on the villains' childhood; or some minor impasse like spells cast going crazy, making them temporarily susceptible to lesser spells; or betrayal by their trusted servitors; or even a love affair that failed to blossom (so long as it doesn't sound soapy).
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2010 : 13:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think this applies to what I think about Larloch being the Great Unseen/Unknown:
Limited knowledge of something makes us want to crave for more for the sake of knowing...Abundance of it makes us crave for more, too; only this time, for the sake of finally slaking our thirst.
I forgot where I read it. Must be from one of Coelho's or Allison Burnett's novels.
Ah, but "once the secret of a trick is revealed to a person, that one can no longer fully enjoy subsequent performances of that magic, as the amazement is missing." Quoted from the Wikipedia entry on Magic (Illusion); the source of the quote is, very appropriately, unrevealed and "citation needed" .
When an illusion is revealed, everything about that illusion is revealed. Hence, the death of amazement. (Take for instance Breaking the Magician's Code.)
But it is impossible to reveal EVERYTHING about a character, specially if the said character is living or existing. An author can only reveal MORE about that character, never everything. Of course, unless he kills him and writes a very lengthy series about all his accomplishments and failures from fetus to death.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 21:04:14
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Unlike real, living beings, fictional characters can get 'more' added to them even after death.
You never read a short-story in the Realms anthologies that took place in the distant past? Movies do that sort of thing all the time - its called a 'prequel'.
So I agree with you about your main point - not being able to possibly know 'everything' about a character, but disagree that death is the exception to that rule.
Also consider how many characters have come back from the dead (not just thinking in terms of FR here). Hell, supposedly even the story of King Arthur isn't finished yet, according to legend. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 04:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I agree with you about your main point - not being able to possibly know 'everything' about a character, but disagree that death is the exception to that rule.
Also consider how many characters have come back from the dead (not just thinking in terms of FR here). Hell, supposedly even the story of King Arthur isn't finished yet, according to legend.
The difference is quite plain: while the exploits of the dead character can be recounted in several angles and even in several points of view, thus rendering his life story NEARLY endless, his "life" is still "stuck" in the past; on the other hand, the exploits of the living character are inarguably E.N.D.L.E.S.S. The author can throw him/her from the present to the past, to the future, back to present, or do whatever he wishes his created character to do. But don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean I don't read stories about dead characters. I still like to know more about certain dead FR characters, like Khelben, Halaster, Lallara. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 05:58:38
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| Sorry - "RSE"? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Sorry - "RSE"?
Defined as "Realms Shattering/Shaking Event" -- for example, the Time of Troubles, the Rage of Dragons, the "Last Mythal" tale, or the return of Shade. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 06:37:40
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| Aha, that puts what's been said in this scroll into much sharper context. Thanx |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 01:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Sorry - "RSE"?
Defined as "Realms Shattering/Shaking Event" -- for example, the Time of Troubles, the Rage of Dragons, the "Last Mythal" tale, or the return of Shade.
In other words, the novels that (other than those where the ubiquitous Drizz't is featured) sell pretty well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 22:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My story was a struggle/romance between Scyllua (evil paladin) and a hero who, if not actually a paladin, was a devotedly LG hero (I think he was a ranger?)--the two are forced to work together/rely on each other. It explores the nature of good and evil, and shows the light and darkness in both of them. As for what happens in the end, well, you know me.
For some reason this reminds me of the Order of the Stick. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 23:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Sorry - "RSE"?
Defined as "Realms Shattering/Shaking Event" -- for example, the Time of Troubles, the Rage of Dragons, the "Last Mythal" tale, or the return of Shade.
In other words, the novels that (other than those where the ubiquitous Drizz't is featured) sell pretty well.
It's funny, I've never read any of those. Though to be honest I have trouble spending money on the novels. I have read several of the Drizzt books and never really enjoyed any of them. In fact I think my favorite book so far is Elminster's Daughter.
If I was setting up a villains series it would be the Wyrms of Faerun! Enough with all the books about humanoids!  |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 04:56:40
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| To my mind the Drizz't novels were very much like the astounding variety of Bigby's Hand spells (as commented by someone else, Khelben Arunsun, I think). A fresh and amazing gimmick in the beginning, but over time it just kills itself by being far too much overdone. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 05:24:53
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Bite thy tongue you heathen philistine!! Lol! I can see how some people would feel that way. Personally, I loved MOST of them. He was my first into to the Realms, and still my fave (though Jarlaxle may soon outstrip him). Even though the books are not always the greatest, I love delving into events that do not always change the Realms, or even a significant part of them. And I enjoy the journal entries for letting us see things from his eyes. I like novels that explore a character's psychology in depth. It's one of the reasons I am loving the Sellswords books so much- I finally get to see more of what makes Entreri tick! And having Jarlaxle for his foil is a nice bonus.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 05:29:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
To my mind the Drizz't novels were very much like the astounding variety of Bigby's Hand spells (as commented by someone else, Khelben Arunsun, I think). A fresh and amazing gimmick in the beginning, but over time it just kills itself by being far too much overdone.
Page 61 of Forgotten Realms Adventures, under the description for the 7th level spell Khelben's Warding Whip:
quote:
As the wizard of Waterdeep once noted to his apprentice Illistar, "The old goat comes up with one good gimmick, and beats it to death with a rock."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Oct 2010 05:29:50 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 16:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Sorry - "RSE"?
Defined as "Realms Shattering/Shaking Event" -- for example, the Time of Troubles, the Rage of Dragons, the "Last Mythal" tale, or the return of Shade.
In other words, the novels that (other than those where the ubiquitous Drizz't is featured) sell pretty well.
It's funny, I've never read any of those. Though to be honest I have trouble spending money on the novels. I have read several of the Drizzt books and never really enjoyed any of them. In fact I think my favorite book so far is Elminster's Daughter.
That doesn't change anything, except that you could have learned and had fun learning of the significant events that helped shape the Realms (for better or for worse) through the years. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 17:52:26
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I like to see this thread respawn from time to time . . . almost as much as I'd like to see a Villains series. :)
Maybe a "Realms of Villainy", along the lines of ye olde "Realms of Infamy"?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 19:21:14
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The trick is to use the heroes to highlight the bad guy, in such a way as to leave both in a gray area.
What if Larloch had learned of the Sojourner's plan? And what if Larloch contacted a group of heroes to thwart him? what if Larloch wound-up with the weave-taps in his possession?
Now change all that and create a different Sojourner-like character. Have him trying to procure an artifact (Nethereae, Imaskari, Jhaamdathan, etc) that would allow him to either rule the world, or change it drastically. Rather then face this threat (not so much to the Realms, but rather to his own power) himself, he would find a likely (or perhaps, unlikely) group of heroes to do the work for him, and then try to keep 'the prize' for himself.
In the end, when the heroes say something iconically heroic, like 'We can't let you have it, Larloch!", he would smile (skeletal smiles are always kinda gruesome) and say "I merely wish to study it. If not me, then who else will hold onto it? Who amongst you has the power to keep it, and the willpower not to use it, hmmmmmm?"
As they look at each other wordlessly, he says "I thought as much", and turns and leaves.
Iconic fighter: "Should we stop him?"
Iconic Sagely type: "He's right... who could we trust to keep it from the likes of the Zhentarim, or the Red Wizards, or a hundred other groups that would stop at nothing to possess it?"
Iconic Elf-chick: "But we can't just let him have it!"
Iconic Cleric (smiling ruefully): "And even if we were so-inclined to safegaurd it ourselves, how do you propose we get it from him?"
And they turn, staring at the spot where Larloch walked into the Shadows. From the darkness they could almost discern a chuckle... almost.
End of interlude.
That's how you write a heroic tale featuring a villain and still keep it villainous. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 07:13:01
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| If Larloch be one of the villains in this series, I'd like to see the Selunarrans thrown in the mix, with a couple of other surviving non-Shade Netherese. And it'd be wonderful if the time-frame is divided into past and present equally, highlighting Larloch's plan (whatever and however devastating that is to everyone) that started when he was just a rambling apprentice during the early days of Netheril; Karsus' and Iaoulum's partial involvement; and the Teraseer's dire warning and clandestine influences. And Szass Tam, Telamont, and the Twisted Rune forged an uneasy alliance to thwart the Realms' greatest threat: Larloch himself. Talk about all-star cast! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 05:57:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I like to see this thread respawn from time to time . . . almost as much as I'd like to see a Villains series. :)
Maybe a "Realms of Villainy", along the lines of ye olde "Realms of Infamy"?
Cheers
It'd be better if 'tis darker and more 'villainous' than the old 'Realms of Infamy.'
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Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 13:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like Larloch, I'm happy with him not receiving much airtime. If he gets put in the spotlight, he'll inevitably get statted out to be just another target for powergamers.
Lards of Darkness Page 161 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 13:51:07
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lol
I meant Lords of course  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 18:40:19
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I like Larloch, I'm happy with him not receiving much airtime. If he gets put in the spotlight, he'll inevitably get statted out to be just another target for powergamers.
Lards of Darkness Page 161
I care not about the games. Many have already spoken about Larloch's stage time in the novels. If the poll on “Whom do we want to be novelized?” shall be the basis, then Larloch is sure to be in this series... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 23:50:27
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When dealing with Larloch, I think the best thing to do is use him how he should be used: have the novel deal with some massive, over-reaching plot dreamt up by Larloch and then put into action by his willing and unwilling pawns. Have the heroes "win", perhaps taking out a servitor lich of some power, but have Larloch chuckling at the end as he keeps moving the chess pieces around. Instead of trying to use him as a physical entity, he has to be the puppet master, just as he would have to be if an ambitious DM were try to use him in a campaign. That way, you avoid having Larloch in combat, which is not how he works, and not an idea you want to seed amongst players or DM's.
Of course, how well such a novel would sell I've no idea, but that's how I'd like to see Larloch novelized, personally. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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