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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 00:26:07
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I'm looking for people's personal opinions here. Your best theories; in particular your best and worst case scenarios. This is a "What if..." type of question.
What happens if there is a situation where Mystra is somehow infected by Moander's corruption which is located in Darkwatch / Tsornyl? What happens to Mystra as a deity, and what happens to the Weave? What happens to those who draw their magic from the Weave?
For those who are unfamiliar Moander was the deity of rot, decay, and corruption. Centuries ago he hurled part of his divine essence known as the "creeping evil" against the Elven city of Tsornyl, which is located north of Deepingdale and south of Battledale, east of Lake Sember, and just west of the Pool of Yeven.
This creeping evil blighted a lot of the surrounding woods, twisting all life that it came into contact with. The Elves couldn't defeat it, so instead they imprisoned it with High Magic, which in turn severed the creeping evil from Moander and imprisoned the corruption within Tsornyl. This weakened Moander significantly, at great cost to the Elves.
This place would eventually become known as Darkwatch, and over the centuries this imprisoned evil has gnawed at its bindings in a search for freedom. It continues to persist even in the wake of Moander's death by the hands of Finder Wyvernspur. It is sitting there and waiting to claw its way back to divinity.
It has the ability to sense power; it can sense the dying spells of Tsornyl and other powerful magics in addition to the divine power within avatars, the Chosen of Mystra, divine servants such as archons, and mortals that are frequently possessed by the gods (such as Fzoul). It desperately hungers for them, and seeks a way to lure them into its clutches. The evil of the place knows exactly how to take advantage of any being of such power who comes into contact with it, and if they do they are almost certainly doomed the moment Moander's rot touches them.
The influence of Moander's corruption can be subtle, at first, or quickly take hold over an individual depending on the strength of their will. In most cases it may not even be apparent until it is far too late. The method of infection is usually through spores that land on the skin, are inhaled through the air, or consumed in food or water.
Moander was a very controlling deity; his servants had to undergo a ceremony in which a seed of the deity was absorbed into the initiate. This seed slowly grew throughout their bodies until all of their internals were completely composed of rotting plant material; the only outward manifestation was a small flowered tendril emerging from one ear that wound its way through the hair. Those that had fully undergone this transformation were completely under the direct control of Moander both physically and mentally - at any moment it desired. It did allow some free will occasionally; those most important to the cult, but it could (and would) kill them at a moments notice should they seek to betray the cult.
This seems to be the same type of infection that manifests itself in the water, food, and air around Darkwatch.
It should be noted that Moander is no stranger to infecting other deities with his corruption. He did exactly this with Tyche, the Netherese Goddess of fortune, luck, fate, misfortune, accidents, accountability, adventurers, explorers, traders, and trade. When her corruption became obvious to those around her (those deities named were Lathander, Azuth, and Selune) - Selune struck the corrupted Tyche with a bolt of purifying light. From the husk that was Tyche then emerged Tymora and Beshaba.
Lore sources: Faiths and Avatars: pg. 119 - 122, Volo's Guide to the Dalelands: pg. 97 - 98, Power of Faerun: pg. 117 - 118, and lastly Faiths and Pantheons: pg. 77 - 78.
With all of this in mind, let's turn our attention back to the focus of this post. Let's assume that a significant portion of Mystra's divine essence in avatar form (such as it was during the Time of Troubles) finds its way to Darkwatch. Assume that this avatar becomes infected by Moander's corruption, and that this corruption is then able to tap into Mystra fully and completely. We know that Mystra is the physical embodiment of the Weave.
So what happens to Mystra as a deity if she is corrupted by Moander? What happens to the Weave, and those who draw upon it for their arcane power? What happens to the Chosen of Mystra?
What are some of your best and worst case scenarios?
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Edited by - Aldrick on 20 Dec 2012 00:30:30
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 23:00:53
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Wow. Over 70 views and no responses; that sucks. 
The reason I asked the question wasn't just out of curiosity. I'm considering using this as a plot element in my Realms; to avoid yet another Mystra dies and then is resurrected storyline. I'm contemplating using this as an alternative to the Spellplague, and then looking for a way to weave it together with new 5E lore.
Naturally, I have my own thoughts on what would happen, but I was hoping to get some feedback from people here. Especially since people here might come up with different scenarios than I would. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 00:19:15
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Well it is my first view, only because you bumped it.
While I can see Darkwatch perhaps corrupting Mystra just not sure why she would enter such a place or even send a Chosen or avatar into the area.
With that said, if Mystra got infected it clearly could explain magic going unstable. She got a cold, flue, maybe went into coma for a time. A cure clearly could be effected by AO or perhaps other deities that revives her. After a long illness she might recover, however recover somewhat differently then how she was. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 07:31:42
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In my mind, energy can't be destroyed or corrupted. Corrupting the tap wich holds acces to the energy source will have no initial impact on the energy; but the one opening the conduit to the energy will get corrupted after repeated use. After a while a heavy conduit user would be a source of corruption for the rest of the system. If enough energytaps are infected the energy itself will get used up to maintain even saturation, with the potential of users losing acces to the energy in areas near "sick" taps.
With this analogy in mind, Mystra could be partially uncorruptable if you see her as part of the energy of the weave itself (Mystra is the energy). If you see her as a sentient divine construct of the weave (Mystra is the tap) she could be seen as completely corruptable but with ready acces to a cure in the form of uncorruptable pure magic. The infection needs to be slumbering and insidious for it to work. Her eventual corruption would result from a more gradual, lingering Spellplague that gets worse with heavy spell use, untill Mystra and magic users would become suddenly ill.
The Chosen might be blessed, as silverfire seems to qualify for being an uncorruptable energy. This would make their bodies very resistant to any infection and in case they do become corrupted could fuel their magic without them corrupting Mystra in turn. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 14:39:51
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My only thought (when first reading the thread, which is why I didn't bother) was that scene from LotR wherein Galadriel allows Frodo to 'see' what would happen if she were to take the ring. Galadriel is one of the few elves I like - she fully understands the 'dark side' of elven nature (their infinite hubris).
"Ultimate power corrupts, ultimately". This is human nature (and why I feel nearly all deities are just ascended mortals).This is why Ed was wise-enough to design into her two facets - a 'human' side, and an inhuman one. Even though she technically has 'ultimate power' (rivaling even that of Ao on some levels), she has not been corrupted.
Going into Darkwatch could (possibly) override this 'natural protection' she has. Thats why I don't think she would ever do something that stupid. HOWEVER, I think just one of her avatars going and in and being corrupted would be FAR MORE interesting (it would make a helluva story-arc, for either an adventure path or a novel series).
An avatar that 'runs amok', and becomes its own, separate entity. 
You know... that just gave me another notion... what if Mystra actually has multiple personality disorder? (given her odd creation.)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2012 14:41:06 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 18:44:16
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Wow, people really did go with it in a completely different direction than I imagined. ...and everyone was a lot more generous to Mystra. 
It's true that the biggest stumbling block that I've found is getting Mystra there in the first place. However, I think I've found a way around that. In the end, though, it's somewhat irrelevant as to how or why it happens - I'm mostly focused on 'it happens... now what?' I'll fill in the how and why later.
However, it's likely going to involve the Karse Stone, and Shar sacrificing the Shadow Weave and the Shades. I know that much.
So, anyway I'm picturing things like this... the corruption begins by spreading first within the 'spaces between the Weave' - places that Mystra no longer has access to, and are part of the Shadow Weave (controlled by Shar, but not a part of her). The Shades begin to go down first, and no one is certain exactly what is happening. Though, of course, it is welcomed news!
Then the corruption begins to seep out of the 'spaces between the Weave' into the actual Weave itself. It was, after all, hidden from Mystra by Shar. (Curse those pesky deities of secrets!) By the time Mystra notices what is happening, it is already too late. Like a cancer, it has spread throughout the entire Weave; even if she tries to eradicate it in one place, it'll be too late as it begins to appear in multiple other areas. She is quickly overcome because she is taken by surprise.
This assumes, of course, that she realizes it's happening at all. There is no guarantee that she will. Regardless, the attempt to stop it would be in vain.
However, he'll never gain control over Mystra or the Weave. The reasons for this are very similar to the argument made by Bladewind. There is simply so much energy flowing into the Weave, that Moander would describe it as "trying to drink an ocean." Or, perhaps more accurately, "like someone is forcing you to drink an entire ocean."
He can't stop. He can only spread his corruption into the Weave indefinitely, because if he stopped - even for a moment - he'd be overwhelmed by the power.
He simply is never going to be powerful enough to completely gain control over Mystra, and even if he could he wouldn't be able to sustain control over the Weave even if he tried. Instead, what happens is that Mystra is driven insane due to the corruption that has spread throughout her body (the Weave) and her mind.
The result is a pantheon shake up, and the Spellplague. Of course, my version of the Spellplague is different than the original.
Basically anyone who uses the Shadow Weave or the Weave will be slowly driven insane and begin to rot from the inside out. That's why they call it the Spellplague. The corruption can also happen to those who use or live around powerful magical items that are powered by the Weave or Shadow Weave.
The Chosen of Mystra, however, are immune to the corruption. They carry within them parts of Mystra's 'pure' and non-corrupted divinity. They have the ability to heal and reverse the corruption on others, as well as some powerful magical items. Of course, they're far too few in number to make any real difference.
I'm sacrificing some of them in Thay, to save the Red Wizards, and Alustriel Silverhand is sacrificing herself to save the Mythal in Silverymoon. Silverymoon is now a place safe from the corruption of Moander. Thay is a bit more complicated, but it involves the use of Sakkors and some major shake-ups there. (No one willingly sacrifices themselves to save Thay, but bad things happen when powerful wizards - especially wizards starting to go insane due to Moander's corruption - get together to duke it out. Especially when a sentient Mythallar is nearby...)
In the bigger picture, magic isn't exactly wild, but it's less stable than it was before. There would also be an introduction of alternative ways of getting magic that don't use the Weave; even though that would remain the primary method. Most of the other methods would be less-than-ideal though, and either specialized or localized.
Those that tap into the Weave would, as I said, slowly be driven insane and begin to rot from the inside out. The corruption can also spread to those who use magical items created through the Weave. So a warrior who wields powerful magical swords and highly enchanted armor will pay a price...
It should be pointed out that I'm not using D&D to run FR. So these changes, which would be reflected in the mechanics, will be less problematic than they first appear.
Anyway, this was my thinking. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 22:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would the goddess go there in person, instead of as an avatar?
I am trying to figure out why even Chosen would go there, unless to purge the area.
The question was a what if somehow, reason went into corrupting area, got corrupted. A way the OP said that he did not want Mystra to die, however also explain why the Weave could become unstable to allow the Spell Plague. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 00:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would the goddess go there in person, instead of as an avatar?
Here is what I'm leaning toward at the moment.
You're right getting Mystra there is the difficult part. At first I considered having Mystra and Cyric find a way to summon the bulk of Mystra's divine essence to the material plane, and then imprison it within Darkwatch. After all, if Szass Tam can apparently summon Bane, surely two Greater Deities working together can summon another? However, it just didn't sit right with me. It gave Shar and Cyric too much power - I also didn't like that Tam could do that to Bane to start with...
I also didn't like the idea of the gods interfering directly.
I settled on using the Karsestone with Shar making some major sacrifices to get rid of her rival instead. Ed has said on the forums that Shar is just using the Netherese as a means to an end, and will eventually dispose of them. I dislike the whole concept of returned Empires, so I'm using this as an opportunity to pretty much get rid of them completely.
Ed in his most recent interview, spoke about both the Weave and the Shadow Weave. He described the Shadow Weave as the spaces between the Weave. My setting lore will draw upon that idea, and then add the following: Shar had a secret hand in the folly of Karsus. She purposefully revealed secret lore to him in an effort to push him in the direction he ultimately traveled. The moment he took control over the Weave from Mystra - the moment Karsus realized his folly - Shar moved to seize control of the 'spaces between the Weave', which would ultimately become known as the Shadow Weave.
Before the Fall of Netheril, magic was more powerful because both the Shadow Weave and the Weave were united as part of a single tapestry. After the Fall, although Mystra is accused of weakening magic, the truth of the matter is that she only took control over the Weave and not the Shadow Weave. The same is true for Midnight, when she became Goddess of the Weave.
In order to use Heavy Magic, as Karsus did, you need access to the 'pure Weave' - which is both the Shadow Weave and the Weave. The Karsestone, due to the actions of Karsus, is the only artifact in the entire world to still draw upon the Weave in its pure form undiluted.
Shar knows this... Mystra (Midnight) may not. The Shadow Weave, to Mystra, is like a blind spot in her power - something hidden from her sight. Shar seized control of it knowing the implications, and was just waiting for a day when she could put her treachery to use.
She sends Rivalen Tanthul, her Chosen, to fetch the Karsestone (in Netheril's hands), and head to Darkwatch. She keeps her motives and intentions secret from Rivalen. When he arrives Moander instantly senses him and the Karsestone. Shar abandons her Chosen to Moander, knowing full well what will happen next.
Rivalen falls prey to Moander's corruption, and becomes enslaved to his will. Moander further takes the divine essence held within him that was in turn taken from Kesson Rel, once again becoming a demigod.
Simultaneously, it begins to corrupt the Karsestone. It first finds itself corrupting the "spaces between the Weave" - a place where it can hide and spread unseen. This means that Shadow Weave users are impacted by the Spellplague first. If anyone notices, they likely view it as welcomed news. Even then, though, no one would understand what was going on.
Then, suddenly and without warning, the corruption would begin seeping out of the 'spaces in-between' and directly into the Weave itself - directly into the body of Mystra. In so doing, the Shadow Weave and the Weave begin to stitch themselves back together. This is what causes the Blue Fire that is seen.
As this happens Moander's corruption spreads like a cancer throughout the Weave. Even if Mystra attacks it in one area, it quickly metastasizes itself in two more. She is quickly overwhelmed.
However, due to the nature of the Weave, Moander cannot fully corrupt Mystra. It's like he's being forced to drink an ocean. Once he started he realized this he couldn't stop, because if he did he'd be washed away by the onslaught of pure power.
Mystra instead is transformed by the corruption and driven insane. The Weave, returned to its pre-fall of the Netherese state, is corrupted by Moander. Those that use the Weave for their magic, or come into contact with magic created by the Weave, are slowly driven insane and begin to rot from the inside out.
This has some pretty obvious and intentional social and cultural repercussions.
My point in posting here, is that I wanted to see how many people would imagine Mystra becoming corrupted similar to what I imagined. I was looking for worst and best case scenarios for that reason. I'm less worried about whether or not people think Mystra would allow herself to be in that position, than what happens if she found herself corrupted by Moander. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 23 Dec 2012 01:17:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 04:54:19
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There are other factors to consider, as well: Lolth and Finder. Lolth has been granting spells in Moander's name, so she'd oppose anything causing him to rise again. And Finder took Moander's divine essence in the first place, so he, too, would act to prevent Moander's return. Plus, for Finder, acting against this would help keep safe Alias and her sisters, and that's something Finder would take very seriously.
And Finder is an ally of Selûne. She's the one that detected the corruption in Tyche during the Dawn Cataclysm, and zapped Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba. So I think that she, too, would have a great interest in stopping a reborn Moander.
I know this isn't what you're looking for... But I'm the type that when I have an idea, I try to be very thorough about making sure it can be pulled off. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 05:51:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are other factors to consider, as well: Lolth and Finder. Lolth has been granting spells in Moander's name, so she'd oppose anything causing him to rise again. And Finder took Moander's divine essence in the first place, so he, too, would act to prevent Moander's return. Plus, for Finder, acting against this would help keep safe Alias and her sisters, and that's something Finder would take very seriously.
And Finder is an ally of Selûne. She's the one that detected the corruption in Tyche during the Dawn Cataclysm, and zapped Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba. So I think that she, too, would have a great interest in stopping a reborn Moander.
I know this isn't what you're looking for... But I'm the type that when I have an idea, I try to be very thorough about making sure it can be pulled off.
Those are good points. I hadn't factored in either Lolth or Finder.
I've already factored in Selune, and have her in a similar role that she found herself in during the Tyche incident. You have to keep in mind that she didn't notice Tyche was corrupted by Moander until it was far too late to stop him. Azuth as well, was involved in the Tyche incident. According to F&P (pg. 77), "When she [Tyche] finally returned home, the oblivious Tyche came upon her friends Lathander and Selune, as well as Azuth, who had been warned of Moander's attack through consultation with the Pale Tesseract."
Since both Azuth and Selune have dealt with Moander corrupting a deity in the past, I've kept them in mind. Azuth most especially since he's so close to Mystra. This is why I had Moander corrupt the Shadow Weave first. I sort of imagined it as water filling the nooks and crannies in a piece of wood, and then being absorbed into that wood. Thus his corruption spreads throughout the 'spaces between the Weave' (aka the Shadow Weave), and then begins quickly seeping into the Weave itself from those in-between spaces. This would give neither Mystra, Azuth, nor Selune little warning until it was too late.
The Karsestone in my opinion is the perfect object to use for this, because I think it gets around the issue of getting Mystra to Darkwatch in the first place. It's also unlikely that Mystra has any control over the Karsestone - it's like part of her and yet separate from her at the same time. Sort of like a blind spot in her Weave... and it is in the hands of Shar.
I'm not really sure what either Lolth or Finder can really do to stop either Shar or Moander. If either of them sent an avatar to Darkwatch, we already know that Moander has the ability to corrupt the avatar. The same with sending any followers. On top of that, I'm having Shar sacrifice Rivalen to Moander (and thus he'd be under Moander's control), and since he'd also have the Karsestone he'd also be able to call upon Wulgreth since the stone is also his phylactery. Controlling his phylactery should give him power over Wulgreth as well.
Let's not forget the Karsestone itself has some pretty strong power attached to it. So, if Lolth or Finder sent even a sizable force down into Darkwatch I'm sure the combined might of those above could handle them. Going themselves is out of the question, I think, so they'd have to send mortal followers.
However, I don't think any of this is even necessary, because if everything goes the way Shar and Moander would hope... (and it will since that's what I want ) ...then no one will even realize what has taken place until it is far too late to stop it.
There is a slight possibility that Finder might be made aware that Moander has returned to divinity when he absorbs the divine essence held within Rivalen that was taken from Kesson Rel. However, I'm not sure what he could do about it. Even if he is somehow made aware of his return to divinity, that still would not give him access to Moander's plans... and it's quite possible that Shar could use her power as the deity of secrets to ensure that he doesn't find out. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 16:38:57
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| Finder doesn't have to know what Moander's plans are. All he has to know is that Moander is back yet again, and Finder will be doing whatever it takes -- including calling in allies -- to stop Moander before he can do anything. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 19:45:50
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I'm sure Finder would like to try whatever it takes, but does he have whatever it takes? I don't think that he does. He may not even realize - assuming that he realizes Moander has returned to divinity - that it has anything to do with Darkwatch.
After all, Lolth has been posing as Moander. The number of people praising Moander could have reached enough critical mass to resurrect the deity. This was another possibility left open for Moander's return to divinity. (F&A pg. 120: "However, an infinitesimal fraction of his essence does remain on the Astral Plane, so theoretically it could be revived, given sufficient worship, and could return to haunt the Realms or some other world again.")
After all, as we established, no sane deity is going to go wandering into Darkwatch. The only way Moander gets resurrected there is if he either devours sufficient divine essence from another deity or alternatively devours enough individuals (of roughly the Chosen's power level) to fuel his return. Under normal circumstances this would set off alarms all over the place... however, under the scenario that I'm pushing - Shar sends her Chosen with the Karsestone, who also happens to have a portion of divine essence from another deity in him - this can be done insanely stealthily. No alarms. No warning. No missing Chosen of Mystra. It just happens.
He could follow that red herring until it was too late to stop Moander. It's not as if things would go something like this:
* Finder realizes that Moander has returned to divinity.
* Finder picks up his dial-o-deity phone and calls Selune.
* "Hey babe, I just detected Moander returning to divinity. Since I'm an incredibly minor and weak deity (virtually a quasi-deity) with virtually no followers at all, can you send as many powerful people as you can to Darkwatch to destroy him?"
Even assuming he could do that, we have to remember that just imprisoning that portion of Moander's essence in Darkwatch cost the lives of numerous High Mages... and the only reason they imprisoned it there was because they couldn't defeat it. So, if Finder were to raise the alarm to actually defeat Moander in Darkwatch he'd need the ability to raise more power than Tsornyl and their allies could raise.
Then you have to keep in mind that as a result of Shar's actions Moander is now more powerful than he was before, plus if Selune intervened directly you can bet everything that Shar is stepping in directly as well. This all shifts the balance in favor of Moander.
But I still think it is all moot because Shar, as Goddess of Secrets, would do all that she could to prevent anyone from finding out what was happening until it was too late. So it's unlikely that Finder would even get an advanced heads up until after Moander has begun to corrupt Mystra.
I'm not picturing a plausible scenario where someone has advance enough warning to prevent the catastrophe AND has the power to prevent it. I'm absolutely certain that numerous deities (not just Finder and Lolth) would do whatever it takes to stop Moander, but in order to do that they need advance warning of what is going to happen AND the ability to raise enough powerful individuals to do something about it. I don't even think Mystra could manage it if she sent ALL of her Chosen to Darkwatch at once.
I could see it might happen if someone like Larloch stepped in and brought the liches under his control with the sole goal of destroying Moander and Darkwatch completely. However, as a side effect I think bringing such destructive and powerful magic to bare would wipe out a good chunk of the Dales and the Cormanthor Forest to accomplish it. The whole area would likely become a horrible wasteland and a permanent dead magic zone though.
Since most of the deities who'd be tempted to intervene would be good aligned, this wouldn't even be an option. The only way it could even potentially make it on to the table is if they knew what Moander was doing (and they wouldn't know that until it was too late).
I'm just not envisioning a plausible scenario. Would those deities (among many others) seek to intervene to stop Moander? Yes. However, they'd need the ability to have advanced warning, and the actual ability to send enough powerful mortals to do something about it. Again, keeping in mind that simply imprisoning Moander in Darkwatch cost the lives of numerous Elven High Mages, and the whole reason they imprisoned him was because they couldn't defeat him. Plus, on top of it all, he's now more powerful and has the backing of Shar. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 06:19:49
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As soon as Moander wakes up, his sigil will reappear on the arms of Alias and her sisters, and also on Dragonbait's chest. That's a pretty good warning, right there. Especially since one of Alias's sisters is a priestess of Tymora, and Dragonbait is a paladin of Tyr whose mate is a priestess of Finder.
And we know this will happen, because it's happened before.
Plus, since Finder's divinity came from Moander, I think that's enough of a connection for Finder to be aware of Moander's return. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Dec 2012 06:20:50 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 10:22:27
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quote:
As soon as Moander wakes up, his sigil will reappear on the arms of Alias and her sisters, and also on Dragonbait's chest. That's a pretty good warning, right there. Especially since one of Alias's sisters is a priestess of Tymora, and Dragonbait is a paladin of Tyr whose mate is a priestess of Finder.
And we know this will happen, because it's happened before.
Plus, since Finder's divinity came from Moander, I think that's enough of a connection for Finder to be aware of Moander's return.
I completely agree with this...however, as Aldrick has already pointed out, that does not give said deities knowledge of Shar's plans. Said deities would have to decide to (immediately) move to destroy the risen Moander...a doubtful outcome at best as it requires not only their cooperation in the matter but a willingness to sacrifice many followers and a large portion of the Dales, IMHO.
As to the effect on Mystra. Im not sure this corruption has to drive Mystra insane. As already pointed out...the Weave constantly receives energy so I assume a constant state of renewal (kinda like actively combating the 'cancer') that is incapable of healing the corruption, but does allow it to be held in abeyance. The effects would be mitigated.
The reason I point this out is: If Mystra goes insane, what is to stop her from wreaking all kinds of havoc on the Realms or even committing suicide? I know insane doesnt have to mean 'criminally insane' (although legally, insanity is strictly a legal term). She may not realize what she is doing or care what she is doing... depending on your take on her insanity (psychotic break from reality vs. simple neuroses). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 18:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As soon as Moander wakes up, his sigil will reappear on the arms of Alias and her sisters, and also on Dragonbait's chest. That's a pretty good warning, right there. Especially since one of Alias's sisters is a priestess of Tymora, and Dragonbait is a paladin of Tyr whose mate is a priestess of Finder.
I didn't know about the sigils. Hm. That does put a slight unforeseen wrinkle in things. How widely known is it that they have these special markings? What are the chances Shar would know about this, assuming that Shar has planned all of this out decades and decades (if not centuries) in advance? Keeping in mind, of course, that she is the Goddess of Secrets, so trying to keep it hidden may be difficult.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Plus, since Finder's divinity came from Moander, I think that's enough of a connection for Finder to be aware of Moander's return.
Under normal circumstances, I would agree. However, I think Shar would have the ability to conceal this - at least temporarily - from Finder. He's barely a demigod, and at least in my Realms, deities can utilize their portfolios against other deities of equal or lesser power. So, Cyric can "bless" one of his followers to have uncanny success when it comes to murder, even if another deity is attempting to intervene and bless one of their followers with protection. (Example: An assassin that prayed to Cyric before planning to kill a priestess of Sune. Cyric blesses said assassin, increasing his chances of success - making it near certain. Sune blesses her priestess with protection. Cyric's blessing would be more powerful and easily override Sune's blessing because the mortal is acting within his domain - murder.)
Similarly, if Cyric were to lie to another deity to hide some important piece of information from them - he could do so. And the lie would be believable. It works because he's the deity of lies, and his lies have a tendency to be vastly more believable as a result.
Likewise, Shar as the Goddess of Secrets has the ability to keep things hidden from people - especially when it causes them some sort of tragic pain or Loss. Hiding Moander's return from Finder would fall under secrets that could lead to a (she would hope) a loss on his part. In other words, she's acting within her domain as established by Ao.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I completely agree with this...however, as Aldrick has already pointed out, that does not give said deities knowledge of Shar's plans. Said deities would have to decide to (immediately) move to destroy the risen Moander...a doubtful outcome at best as it requires not only their cooperation in the matter but a willingness to sacrifice many followers and a large portion of the Dales, IMHO.
That's my thinking as well. Finder himself doesn't have enough power to even begin to deal with what is going down in Darkwatch. Even if he sent an avatar to do battle with the risen Moander, the lore is clear that Moander has the ability to corrupt divine avatars. I think this would be especially true for Finder, since the divine essence he holds BELONGS to Moander in the first place.
The best chance to stop Moander is BEFORE he has a chance to return. That hinges on knowing Shar's plan before she can act. The chances of that happening are less than zero, considering she is the goddess of secrets. It's not like she's telling anyone - not even Rivalen.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
As to the effect on Mystra. Im not sure this corruption has to drive Mystra insane. As already pointed out...the Weave constantly receives energy so I assume a constant state of renewal (kinda like actively combating the 'cancer') that is incapable of healing the corruption, but does allow it to be held in abeyance. The effects would be mitigated.
That's somewhat my thinking as well. The way I see it, Shar essentially tricks Moander into attempting to corrupt the Weave. Since she controls the Shadow Weave, she helps Moander corrupt that first - it should be fairly easy and quick. A few weeks or so at most to have spread his corruption throughout the Shadow Weave with Shar's help.
Moander then begins to have his corruption "seep" out from the "spaces between the Weave" into the Weave directly, further spreading his corruption. However, he comes to learn very quickly that this was a BAD idea. This is basically a similar mistake made by Karsus. The moment Moander first touches the Weave he realizes the folly of his mistake... but it's already too late for him.
I imagine it like someone trying to pour an ocean down Moander's throat. He's struggling to drink it all in, and he knows the moment he stops he's going to be washed away. He can't stop - the moment he stops the Weave over powers him.
So, what will happen is that Moander reaches a sort of equilibrium with regard to the Weave. He eventually reaches a point where he can't continue to spread his corruption. So around areas where the Weave taps directly into magical power - such as Earth Nodes - there would be a zone free of his corruption. So, you'd have Dead Magic Zones and Corruption Free Magic Zones. A limited type of Wild Magic Zone would pretty much be everywhere else. (In non-D&D rules this would explain why sometimes when you cast a spell it fails, whereas in the past that didn't used to happen.)
Basically, I'm setting things up in such a way that I'll have the ability to bring Mystra back should I desire to do so. The only thing that would have to happen is the defeat of Moander. The Weave would naturally cleanse itself of his corruption in time, and Selune would have the power to heal Mystra's insanity. Mystra would actually come out ahead in the long run, because she'd finally have control over the "whole Weave" - the Weave AND the Shadow Weave.
However, that's if things end well for Mystra... that's not something I'd likely go with, but I'm leaving it open as an option. I don't want to close off any possibilities.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The reason I point this out is: If Mystra goes insane, what is to stop her from wreaking all kinds of havoc on the Realms or even committing suicide? I know insane doesnt have to mean 'criminally insane' (although legally, insanity is strictly a legal term). She may not realize what she is doing or care what she is doing... depending on your take on her insanity (psychotic break from reality vs. simple neuroses).
I've thought of that already. Basically, when it becomes known how messed up Mystra is (and it would become apparent rather quickly), her allies are going to intervene. They will fail and Dweomerheart will be left in ruins. Mystra is too powerful to stop. Selune manages to "save" what she can (similar to the Tyche incident), but Mystra is really too far gone at that point to save much.
I know that Selune will get the magic portfolio, and it's likely that Deneir will get the spells portfolio. Azuth will probably be destroyed. Savras will probably go and stay in the Gates of the Moon with Selune as the new Magister. I'm uncertain what I'll do with Velsharoon. Finder will probably be destroyed by Moander / Mystra at the first opportunity.
Since Mystra cannot be saved or destroyed, her allies move to imprison her within Dweomerheart. This is similar to what is done with Cyric in the canon lore; so it's established that such a move is possible.
Dweomerheart becomes known as "The Ruins of Dweomerheart" - it's not destroyed. Mystra is just crazy and sort of wrecks the place regularly.
Mystra's power wanes and she eventually becomes an Intermediate Deity. Her new portfolios would be Rot, Madness, Corrupt Magic, and the Weave. Her titles would become the Corrupter of Magic, the Mother of Madness, and the Rotbringer.
In the mortal world things go straight to hell. Those who draw upon the Weave or regularly come into contact with magic items are slowly corrupted. That corruption comes in the form of a gradual madness (Halaster style), and a rotting sickness that begins inside and eventually consumes the entire body. (A fully corrupted arcanist would be a horrific and disgusting thing to behold.)
There are various ways to slow the progression - and even avoid it to a degree - if you know what you're doing. Both the Cults of Mystra and Selune would have a way to slow its effects. The Cult of Ilmater also has their own way of dealing with it.
Many arcane magic users (and those seeking power from magic) appease and placate Mystra in the same way a sailor praises and appeases Umberlee. It doesn't "save" them from the corruption, but it does slow the effects if earnest offerings and sincere devotion is showed.
If you pray to Selune during a full moon, a similar effect can take place.
There is a ritual held by the cultists of Ilmater that allow them to draw the corruption out of an individual and into themselves. Obviously, this is rarely used for obvious reasons. You'd really have to earn that one in a big way.
Mystra's corruption and insanity has all sorts of unfortunate implications for so many people. Deities once used the Weave to channel their divine powers to their clergy. The moment the corruption became apparent, they ceased this immediately - causing all clergy to lose their divine power. Deities now have to be more selective in who they grant the ability to use divine magic, and in many ways those who can use divine magic are viewed sorta like "Chosen." They carry a spark of the deity inside of them, allowing them to channel its power.
Aside from wizards, some races - such as Elves - got hit pretty hard. Although, it's just a small matter of matching things up with the post-Spellplague lore that I've already created. My changes to the Spellplague actually make better sense for Elves and their deities now. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 24 Dec 2012 19:18:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 22:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As soon as Moander wakes up, his sigil will reappear on the arms of Alias and her sisters, and also on Dragonbait's chest. That's a pretty good warning, right there. Especially since one of Alias's sisters is a priestess of Tymora, and Dragonbait is a paladin of Tyr whose mate is a priestess of Finder.
I didn't know about the sigils. Hm. That does put a slight unforeseen wrinkle in things. How widely known is it that they have these special markings? What are the chances Shar would know about this, assuming that Shar has planned all of this out decades and decades (if not centuries) in advance? Keeping in mind, of course, that she is the Goddess of Secrets, so trying to keep it hidden may be difficult.
I don't think Shar would have any way of knowing that these fourteen thirteen individuals would have that happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Plus, since Finder's divinity came from Moander, I think that's enough of a connection for Finder to be aware of Moander's return.
Under normal circumstances, I would agree. However, I think Shar would have the ability to conceal this - at least temporarily - from Finder. He's barely a demigod, and at least in my Realms, deities can utilize their portfolios against other deities of equal or lesser power. So, Cyric can "bless" one of his followers to have uncanny success when it comes to murder, even if another deity is attempting to intervene and bless one of their followers with protection. (Example: An assassin that prayed to Cyric before planning to kill a priestess of Sune. Cyric blesses said assassin, increasing his chances of success - making it near certain. Sune blesses her priestess with protection. Cyric's blessing would be more powerful and easily override Sune's blessing because the mortal is acting within his domain - murder.)
Similarly, if Cyric were to lie to another deity to hide some important piece of information from them - he could do so. And the lie would be believable. It works because he's the deity of lies, and his lies have a tendency to be vastly more believable as a result.
Likewise, Shar as the Goddess of Secrets has the ability to keep things hidden from people - especially when it causes them some sort of tragic pain or Loss. Hiding Moander's return from Finder would fall under secrets that could lead to a (she would hope) a loss on his part. In other words, she's acting within her domain as established by Ao.
I don't know if Shar could keep that a secret, though. I think that since Finder's divinity came straight from Moander, that Moander's return would be something Finder would feel in the core of his being.
And either way, Dragonbait would know immediately and tell Coral, and she'd tell Finder. Dragonbait would know immediately and tell Tyr. And Zhara would know immediately and tell Tymora. Cat may even warn Mystra. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Dec 2012 22:28:47 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 07:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think Shar would have any way of knowing that these fourteen thirteen individuals would have that happen.
What is actively preventing Shar from finding out? If it's being hidden or kept secret, I don't think this would be an issue for Shar. The way I see (and have Shar working in my canon) is that she has trouble discovering stuff that sorta floats in the grey area between widely known and kept secret.
In other words, if this is something that those who interact with those that have the marks know about, but it isn't widely held knowledge, then it's tricky for Shar.
If they're keeping it a secret, then it's easier, because Shar can sense individuals who have secrets. If she focuses her attention on them she can learn those secrets. It's just part of the perks of being a deity - it's hard to keep secrets from the deity of secrets. Just like it's hard to keep magical knowledge away from Mystra, tell a lie to Cyric, or craft something that Gond can't duplicate.
Deities can sense when mortals draw upon their portfolios. As an example every time someone is attempting or actively navigating (even those who have recently navigated weeks ago) - Selune is made aware of them. She won't know where they were going unless she focuses her attention on them. However, she'd know the level of difficulty they were having and whether or not they were praying to her for aid in that navigation.
That's how I run the deities in my Realms. The gods regularly watch mortals and intervene in small and subtle ways.
Even under the most favorable circumstances, since I'm assuming that Shar has planned for this to happen for some time - and thus has had, at a minimum nearly a decade to prepare (likely more) - then she'd actively be seeking out holes in her plan. Holes like this. So, she'd likely have secret agents in Tarkhaldale / the Lost Vale, since that's the main area in which Finder has worship. That's where they'd start gathering clues, which would probably quickly lead - especially if it isn't kept a secret - to the aforementioned characters.
From there, it's debatable what Shar will do. Most likely, she'd send visions to one of her capable faithful that she believes could handle the matter, and encourage them to kill the characters. They'd likely hire someone on the outside - perhaps a highly capable and qualified Cyricist assassin.
The assassin would probably be instructed to make the killing appear to be a revenge killing, sent by cultists still worshiping Moander. They'd likely plant evidence that linked them to the cultists being backed by Lolth.
Finder may or may not know Lolth is behind the whole deal to pose as Moander, but he's likely had people investigating it. So he might have some clues. This would have Finder and his allies distracted, thinking that Lolthite backed cultists who believe they are worshiping Moander are targeting people for revenge killings.
Lolth would find this absolutely delicious - she'd love it. And of course, she'd realize that the assassin doing the killing is a Cyrist, so she'd probably be misled into believing that the entire purpose behind the action is to cause strife. (Which suits her well since she also loves chaos, and it would work to her benefit by raising Moander's profile which she would believe directly empowers her.)
To add another layer to the whole plot the Sharran would be posing as a priestess of Talona or Gargauth. This way if things go awry and start to backfire, it'd seem like a failed plot by Talona / Gargauth to try and make a move on the rot / corruption portfolios - something they've coveted for some time.
Keep in mind that this can be carried out YEARS in advance of Shar making her move. The event doesn't take place until 1385 DR. Shar could have this whole thing over and done with as early as 1375 DR, IMO. That's plenty of time for people to start letting their guard down.
If she decides that she doesn't want to wait for people to let their guard down, once the loose ends are all tied up and while everyone is distracted she can put her real plans into motion.
It's likely that no one would ever know that Shar was really behind the acts.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if Shar could keep that a secret, though. I think that since Finder's divinity came straight from Moander, that Moander's return would be something Finder would feel in the core of his being.
And either way, Dragonbait would know immediately and tell Coral, and she'd tell Finder. Dragonbait would know immediately and tell Tyr. And Zhara would know immediately and tell Tymora. Cat may even warn Mystra.
Shar would likely struggle to keep the secret from a greater deity. However, Finder? I mean, really? He's barely even a deity, in 3E terms he'd only qualify as a DVR 1. He's more of a quasi-deity than a full blown deity - if a plague or something hit Tarkhaldale / the Lost Vale and wiped out even a small to moderate chunk of his worshipers there - then he'd lose his demigod status.
I think it's questionable how long he'd even be able to hold onto his demigod status with so few mortal worshipers. Maybe a few decades to a century, but after that he'd start to fade away or be reduced to the status of quasi-deity.
For such a weak and newly raised deity, I don't think Shar would have any real difficulty. Certainly, blocking another deities ability to sense such things requires some level of sustained effort on her part. For a deity like Mystra, it'd probably require a great deal of Shar's effort. However, for Finder? It would likely only require a very minor effort on the part of Shar - enough to be noticeable, but not so much that it becomes problematic.
As mortal worshipers running to tell their deities... in my Realms, it doesn't exactly work like that. There is no divine telephone where you can dial up your deity. Even the Chosen of Mystra in my Realms can't dial up Mystra at will.
What would happen if Finder's faithful found out is that they'd hopefully get around to praying to Finder. Finder would then be made aware that they've prayed.
Now, just because you pray to a deity doesn't mean that deity is paying close attention. They're aware that you've prayed, but they don't know what you've prayed about until they direct their attention toward it. However, they can sense urgent and dire prayers... and such prayers usually get heard unless the deity is focused elsewhere.
The good news is that the likelihood of Finder hearing the prayer is extremely high since he has such few faithful. This would likely raise concern, and if Finder is made aware his first thoughts would probably be toward defensive measures. The deity he defeated has just returned to life. Guess whose number one on the list when it comes to enemies!
In that same span of time, he'd likely inform his clergy of what has taken place through a vision. If he has a couple of really powerful followers, he'd notify them as well. He'd probably try and instruct them to go forth and find out what in the world happened.
As for other deities getting involved... at best, they'd do the same thing. And if anyone is foolish enough to actually go to Darkwatch, well... -IF- they return they will be corrupted by Moander.
So at best, the deities would get the following reports: "Moander stirs in Darkwatch. The slumbering rot and corruption within is awakening."
That's the absolute BEST they'd get, and that's assuming they know instantly the moment he reawakens. It would probably take roughly a month to get this information as well, depending on how much divine power a deity wants to expend to go looking.
So, now we have the best case scenario. Finder and all of his allies know that Moander has awakened. They know it has something to do with Darkwatch... now what?
They don't know how Moander awakened. They don't know what is being planned.
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Going back to my earlier points - there isn't a lot they can do about it. Are they going to try and intervene directly? That's dangerous and costly. Such a move would be both EXTREME and RARE in my Realms. Deities almost NEVER directly intervene in the Realms in that fashion unless they're somehow seriously threatened. The only deity here seriously threatened is Finder, and he would not appear to be in immediate danger.
Deities in my Realms are more likely to act through their mortal followers than to intervene directly. The extent that the deities intervene in my Realms is roughly divided up something like this...
94% of the time most of the intervention done by the gods appears as luck, misfortune (if they're working against you) or simple coincidence. This happens fairly frequently - the deities actively listen to and answer prayers. They also actively listen to and punish those who scorn them.
4% of the time their invention is still indirect but noticeable. This usually comes in the form of a vision of some sort, typically while dreaming. The individual may or may not know that the vision was sent by the deity if they were dreaming. However, if it's a priest and the deity is trying to send a command - they usually realize it. This is how deities commune with their clergy. These visions are usually vague and open to individual interpretation.
2% of the time they take a more direct approach. They send some sort of manifestation in the Realms in some way to show their favor or displeasure. This usually only happens at temples and shrines. For example, Lathander may send his favor by having the offerings left to him on his altar glow with radiant rose-colored light for a few brief moments. Hoar may manifest his judgement through the sound of thunder. Alternatively, a deity may send more direct and vivid and clear visions to their faithful - usually a high priest of some sort.
Finally, there is roughly a 0.00000000000000001% chance that they will go further than the above. This involves sending an avatar or something greater. Does it happen? Yes. How often does it happen? Well, for comparison you'd be more likely to win the lottery TWICE. Those are the odds you're looking at.
The moment a deity begins to intervene directly, other gods immediately step in. As a general rule, deities try to cancel out the actions of other deities. Virtually all of the action plays out among mortals. A lot of the stuff that mortals believe happens with the gods - for example, the Dark Three playing dice and fighting over Jergal's portfolios - that's how they interpret what goes on between the deities. That's not necessarily what really happens.
This is how things work in my Realms. The gods are real and everyone knows it - many have seen or heard of their manifestations or received some aid at an opportune moment. However, their interactions with the mortal world rarely tend to be overt. (Among themselves it may be both more overt and direct, but not among mortals.)
"If not for the Dark Sun guiding my tongue, I'd never have been able to pull off a lie like that!"
"If not for Selune's benevolence, I'd never have found my way back!"
"It's such a perfect translation, it's as if it was scribed by Denier's own hand!"
Minor things like this is how the deities interact with mortals on a day to day basis. At least in my Realms.
...and so, this brings us back to the mortal followers of Finder and his allies. Do any of them have the power to defeat Moander in Darkwatch? I don't see it. Even if Mystra leveraged and sacrificed all of her Chosen it would not be enough.
Canonically, it cost the lives of many High Elven Mages simply to IMPRISON Moander. And they had to imprison him because they couldn't destroy or defeat him. To defeat him would require something even greater than what they could muster.
As both The Arcanamach and I pointed out, short of destroying a good chunk of the Dales and Cormanthor Forest it's unlikely that anything could be done to stop it in time.
Here is literally the best case scenario that I envision. Those that oppose Shar and Moander learn of his return, and then eventually discover that it has something to do with Darkwatch. Finder's allies would move to protect Finder against reprisal, and then they'd adopt a wait-and-see attitude while their mortal followers attempt to collect more information.
After all, they don't know what Moander is up to or what he is planning. Thus, they have no reason to be hasty or brash in their actions. (And even if they did, they'd end up arguing over the cost of innocent lives.)
As this happens... boom. Moander makes his big move. I estimate that it'd take about three months for him to fully spread his corruption throughout the Shadow Weave with Shar's aid. Once he's filled the "spaces between the Weave" with his corruption, I estimate that it'd take anywhere from hours at least and days at most to take down Mystra. It would be rapid and sudden - a stealthy attack from the darkness. The moment he begins the corruption of the Weave it will start to move faster and faster until it reaches the equilibrium that I mentioned in my previous post.
The moment of vulnerability in this plan is when Moander begins to corrupt the Weave until he reaches that point of equilibrium. That's when the cards are laid on the table, and things get crazy and harder to predict.
The only real move to stop him at this point is a move that can be made by Mystra. If she is aware that Moander has returned, and is able to deduce through logical reasoning that the Weave somehow could be under threat... For example, she realizes that the shadow weave has been corrupted by Moander, and that Shar must somehow be involved with Moander. The chances of this go up if she realizes that Shar has the Karsestone, and knows the implications of it.
If she realizes these things, and correctly surmises that the Weave could POTENTIALLY be under threat, then she may pull a move similar to Mystryl during the Folly of Karsus. She may decide to suicide.
However, this is a small chance. And since it isn't something that is CERTAIN I'm hand waving it away, because it would put me right back in the position I am in with the current Spellplague. Boom. Mystra dies, and magic is gone. Shar loses the Shadow Weave.
Sure, on the bright side I think it's more logical and better than what happened in the canon. However, the entire purpose here is to AVOID killing Mystra. So taking that path would render this whole exercise moot. Not to mention, I'd put the probability of Mystra connecting the dots somewhere around 3% - it's only that high because Mystra may become aware of the corruption in the Shadow Weave and deduce that Shar is working with Moander. That's a small enough chance to hand wave away.
Also, things are a bit different than what happened during Karsus Folly. Although I don't think Moander would be able to control the Weave, it's possible that Mystra committing suicide could temporarily hand control of it to him.
Shar could then have a back up plan to try and reassert her power over the Shadow Weave - forcing out Moander's corruption - (after all his swift success at fully corrupting the Shadow Weave was with Shar's aid)... Without the Shadow Weave and Shar's aid, it's possible that Moander would be "washed away" from the energy pouring into the Weave. That could give Shar the moment she needs to steal the Weave from him.
So what COULD happen if Mystra committed suicide, is that she could unintentionally throw the Weave into Shar's hands. This is unlikely to happen - I'd place the odds somewhere between 15% and 20%. However, the possibility of that happening could be worse than Moander's corruption. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 12:58:11
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| Shar in control of the weave? I'm sure that would attract the attention of a certain overgod. It would upset the balence of the realms far too much to be allowed. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 15:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Shar in control of the weave? I'm sure that would attract the attention of a certain overgod. It would upset the balence of the realms far too much to be allowed.
It would, indeed. It would be a POTENTIAL outcome if Mystra committed suicide during Moander's take over. (That's not happening though.) Once Mystra killed herself, the Weave and Magic would be up for grabs. Pretty much the only deities I could imagine actually CONTROLLING the Weave outside of Mystra is either Selune or Shar.
Here is how - in my minds eye - I envision the situation going down.
Ed has described the Weave similar to an electrical grid. It draws its energy from a number of different sources (such as Earth Nodes). He described the Shadow Weave as the 'spaces between' the Weave.
Since Shar has control over the Shadow Weave, she is able to aid Moander in corrupting it. The Shadow Weave feels VERY DIFFERENT from the Weave. From Moander's perspective, it would be like trying to corrupt empty space itself... and not just a small space, but an infinite empty space. Where as the Weave would threaten to overpower him with energy and "wash" him away, the Shadow Weave would threaten to consume him within its infinite cavernous expanse.
With Shar's aid, the Shadow Weave changes slightly. She "shrinks" the empty space so that Moander can fill it with his corruption. When the Shadow Weave is completely filled with his corruption, like pouring water into an empty glass - it'd begin to overflow. This overflow would begin to seep into the Weave itself.
As Moander has corrupted the Shadow Weave, and begins touching the Weave, the Blue Fire happens. We know that when the Weave and the Shadow Weave interact it has explosive results. This is sorta what is happening. Except, in this case the Weave and the Shadow Weave are beginning to stitch themselves together with Moander and his corruption acting as a kind of bridge.
At this point two things can happen. First, Mystra can stay alive and what would happen is that Moander's corruption would eventually spread from the Shadow Weave and to the Weave - corrupting and merging both - until a sort of equilibrium is reached. Second, Mystra could kill herself to prevent the Weave from being corrupted.
If Mystra kills herself things would be different than in Karsus Folly. Foremost, Moander is an actual deity being aided by another deity. He's not a mortal attempting to usurp divine power. He also isn't trying to take power from Mystra - he's trying to corrupt her.
So, if she kills herself some unexpected results may happen. Moander is basically holding onto a fraying end of the Weave. Mystra may go poof, but Moander would likely be holding onto some of those threads. This may keep the Weave around... in the same way you can keep a brain dead person's body alive with life support.
In the mortal world, immediately and instantly magic would go insanely wild. Like way worse than what happened in the Spellplague. Spells of any sort simply wouldn't function. The Weave would instantly begin to fray and fall a part, but it wouldn't collapse instantly like it did during the Folly of Karsus.
The instant Mystra dies pretty much every deity would realize it - most importantly, Shar would realize it. Now, I'm playing Shar here as someone who is intelligent and has thought this through very carefully. She's not only thought of everything we've thought of - she's dreamed up things that we can't even imagine - and so she's building sufficient contingencies into her plans. Mystra committing suicide in an act of self-sacrifice is something Shar would have definitely thought up, especially because her original incarnation - which Shar knew personally - did exactly this very thing.
So, what would happen? Shar would likely move immediately against Moander. He'd be struggling with the chaotic energy flowing at him through the Weave. Then suddenly, without warning, the aid he's receiving from Shar would cease. The "empty space" she "shrank" for him would begin expanding once again. He'd start to feel consumed by the Shadow Weave - his corruption would start to become insignificant. It would be like a grain of sand floating in the vast emptiness of outer space.
As this happens, Shar would move quickly to establish some control over the Shadow Weave, and with it she'd reach out to the fraying Weave and - acting as bridge much like Moander - merge with its fraying ends. Her divine energy would be focused in and around the power sources that the Weave draws its energy.
In those areas - and only in those areas - the Weave and Shadow Weave would merge and become stable.
From Moander's prospective, you'd have the vast and expanding nothingness of the Shadow Weave making it difficult if not impossible for him to continue to seep his corruption into the Weave. Meanwhile the corruption that he's still managing to put into the Weave is being overwhelmed by the steady flow of chaotic and unstable energy.
From a mortal prospective, vast swaths of the Realms - and I'm talking the size of entire kingdoms - become dead magic zones. Those areas not dead magic zones would be ravaged by destructive and violently unstable magic.
As Shar's reach extends further and further across the Weave and Shadow Weave, magic in those areas would stabilize somewhat. They would likely still be very wild, but the violent destruction would probably subside considerably.
Rather rapidly - within the span of hours - Moander would be washed completely out of the Weave, and reduced to virtual insignificance in the Shadow Weave. Shar would likely have included some type of self-destruct preparation on Rivalen. Although he'd be controlled by Moander, some small fraction of him - buried deep within his mind - would be waiting for the proper word from Shar.
Then, for only a brief few moments, Rivalen - realizing the horror of what has happened, and yet compelled by power beyond him to continue - would seize upon as much power as he could in an attempt to destroy the Karsestone.
This would result in his destruction. I'm uncertain what the outcome of destroying the Karsestone would be on the surrounding land. However, I imagine it'd probably destroy Darkwatch and Moander. It would also likely destroy a significant chunk of the surrounding Forest and perhaps part of a couple of Dales. It would probably be like dropping a nuclear bomb. He'd effectively be destroying the remnant of one deity (Karsus) along with another (Moander).
When all is said and done, vast swaths of Toril would be a dead magic zone. Large areas that remain would be wild magic zones. And yet, slowly but surely, if Shar was successful, Shar would be able to settle control over the wild magic zones and begin repairing and closing the dead magic zones.
Within the stable magic zones the Weave would be "whole" again, and would probably function similar to how it did during the time of Netheril, before the Folly of Karsus.
This is how I imagine things playing out if Mystra killed herself as Moander was corrupting the Weave, and Shar is successful at seizing control over some parts of the fraying Weave and Shadow Weave.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 18:40:50
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The reason I think Finder would know automatically is because he took his divinity from Moander -- I think that Moander's return would be felt thru that divinity. Part of Moander is now within Finder -- I see the divinity itself remaining connected to Moander, so that his return would immediately resonate throughout Finder's very essence.
I don't think Shar would have any way of knowing about the connection to the tattoos, for the simple reason that there's not any real reason for this knowledge to have been shared by those affected. Not that they would keep it secret; it's like having a mole or a birthmark -- you don't talk about it, but you don't advertise it, either.
Zhara, Alias, and Dragonbait would, at the very least, know exactly what the reappearance of Moander's sigil would mean. Gods may not have a Batphone with their followers, but there are ways -- not the least of which is simple prayer -- for followers to get word to their deities. And Finder has so few followers that he's going to pay a lot of attention to the ones he has -- on top of that, he's got much affection for Alias.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2012 : 19:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The reason I think Finder would know automatically is because he took his divinity from Moander -- I think that Moander's return would be felt thru that divinity. Part of Moander is now within Finder -- I see the divinity itself remaining connected to Moander, so that his return would immediately resonate throughout Finder's very essence.
I don't think Shar would have any way of knowing about the connection to the tattoos, for the simple reason that there's not any real reason for this knowledge to have been shared by those affected. Not that they would keep it secret; it's like having a mole or a birthmark -- you don't talk about it, but you don't advertise it, either.
Zhara, Alias, and Dragonbait would, at the very least, know exactly what the reappearance of Moander's sigil would mean. Gods may not have a Batphone with their followers, but there are ways -- not the least of which is simple prayer -- for followers to get word to their deities. And Finder has so few followers that he's going to pay a lot of attention to the ones he has -- on top of that, he's got much affection for Alias.
Even if we take for granted that ALL of this happens exactly as you laid out. In other words, Finder is alerted the second Moander returns to divinity... then what?
In the best case scenario that I can imagine, and that I have laid out, it means nothing. They have no access to Moander's plans, and even if they did they would struggle to find a way to put an end to them.
So, let's assume that Finder knows instantly Moander returns. Now what? What does Finder do, and how does Finder put an end to the plot within the boundaries I've outlined previously? That's the sticking point.
The problem isn't that Finder learns Moander has returned. Certainly, Shar would take every precaution to prevent such a thing from happening. However, even if she failed I do not see it as a barrier to the plans success - only a minor nuisance.
So, what exactly am I missing? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 05:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The reason I think Finder would know automatically is because he took his divinity from Moander -- I think that Moander's return would be felt thru that divinity. Part of Moander is now within Finder -- I see the divinity itself remaining connected to Moander, so that his return would immediately resonate throughout Finder's very essence.
I don't think Shar would have any way of knowing about the connection to the tattoos, for the simple reason that there's not any real reason for this knowledge to have been shared by those affected. Not that they would keep it secret; it's like having a mole or a birthmark -- you don't talk about it, but you don't advertise it, either.
Zhara, Alias, and Dragonbait would, at the very least, know exactly what the reappearance of Moander's sigil would mean. Gods may not have a Batphone with their followers, but there are ways -- not the least of which is simple prayer -- for followers to get word to their deities. And Finder has so few followers that he's going to pay a lot of attention to the ones he has -- on top of that, he's got much affection for Alias.
Even if we take for granted that ALL of this happens exactly as you laid out. In other words, Finder is alerted the second Moander returns to divinity... then what?
In the best case scenario that I can imagine, and that I have laid out, it means nothing. They have no access to Moander's plans, and even if they did they would struggle to find a way to put an end to them.
So, let's assume that Finder knows instantly Moander returns. Now what? What does Finder do, and how does Finder put an end to the plot within the boundaries I've outlined previously? That's the sticking point.
The problem isn't that Finder learns Moander has returned. Certainly, Shar would take every precaution to prevent such a thing from happening. However, even if she failed I do not see it as a barrier to the plans success - only a minor nuisance.
So, what exactly am I missing?
My point is that if Finder knows Moander has returned, he's going to act. It doesn't matter if he's trying to stop a specific plot or not -- he's going to be interested in killing off Moander once and for all. And since he needed Tymora's help the first time, he'd ask for her help the second time. So as soon as Moander returns, Finder knows and goes and alerts one of the greater powers of the Realms -- who would likely already know thru her own priestess.
Now, if you're determined to have Moander corrupt Mystra, I'd go about it a different way -- the Darkwatch is just too problematic.
Think about this: When Moander possessed Akabar bel Akash, he left a seed within the mage. Moander was dormant until that seed was released and activated... On top of that, the original corruption of Tyche wasn't done thru an avatar, it was done thru a rose. And other people/creatures corrupted by Moander were corrupted thru seeds or pollen.
So go that angle. Have Shar shield someone who sneaks into Mystra's divine realm, and then this sneaky person/entity leaves a seed or some pollen where Mystra will come into contact with it. This introduces the corruption into the deity without somehow getting her to a spot in the mortal world, and avoids the whole issue of waking up Moander and alerting half the pantheon.
Heck, if bringing back Moander is a goal, have the "blossoming" of his corruption within Mystra become the factor that brings him back. If not, leave him be. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 18:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The reason I think Finder would know automatically is because he took his divinity from Moander -- I think that Moander's return would be felt thru that divinity. Part of Moander is now within Finder -- I see the divinity itself remaining connected to Moander, so that his return would immediately resonate throughout Finder's very essence.
I don't think Shar would have any way of knowing about the connection to the tattoos, for the simple reason that there's not any real reason for this knowledge to have been shared by those affected. Not that they would keep it secret; it's like having a mole or a birthmark -- you don't talk about it, but you don't advertise it, either.
Zhara, Alias, and Dragonbait would, at the very least, know exactly what the reappearance of Moander's sigil would mean. Gods may not have a Batphone with their followers, but there are ways -- not the least of which is simple prayer -- for followers to get word to their deities. And Finder has so few followers that he's going to pay a lot of attention to the ones he has -- on top of that, he's got much affection for Alias.
Even if we take for granted that ALL of this happens exactly as you laid out. In other words, Finder is alerted the second Moander returns to divinity... then what?
In the best case scenario that I can imagine, and that I have laid out, it means nothing. They have no access to Moander's plans, and even if they did they would struggle to find a way to put an end to them.
So, let's assume that Finder knows instantly Moander returns. Now what? What does Finder do, and how does Finder put an end to the plot within the boundaries I've outlined previously? That's the sticking point.
The problem isn't that Finder learns Moander has returned. Certainly, Shar would take every precaution to prevent such a thing from happening. However, even if she failed I do not see it as a barrier to the plans success - only a minor nuisance.
So, what exactly am I missing?
My point is that if Finder knows Moander has returned, he's going to act. It doesn't matter if he's trying to stop a specific plot or not -- he's going to be interested in killing off Moander once and for all. And since he needed Tymora's help the first time, he'd ask for her help the second time. So as soon as Moander returns, Finder knows and goes and alerts one of the greater powers of the Realms -- who would likely already know thru her own priestess.
Now, if you're determined to have Moander corrupt Mystra, I'd go about it a different way -- the Darkwatch is just too problematic.
Think about this: When Moander possessed Akabar bel Akash, he left a seed within the mage. Moander was dormant until that seed was released and activated... On top of that, the original corruption of Tyche wasn't done thru an avatar, it was done thru a rose. And other people/creatures corrupted by Moander were corrupted thru seeds or pollen.
So go that angle. Have Shar shield someone who sneaks into Mystra's divine realm, and then this sneaky person/entity leaves a seed or some pollen where Mystra will come into contact with it. This introduces the corruption into the deity without somehow getting her to a spot in the mortal world, and avoids the whole issue of waking up Moander and alerting half the pantheon.
Heck, if bringing back Moander is a goal, have the "blossoming" of his corruption within Mystra become the factor that brings him back. If not, leave him be.
That's an interesting angle, but I don't think there is enough divine essence / power in one individual to corrupt a greater deity. The plot hooks involving Darkwatch already exist - they were created by Ed Greenwood and Eric L. Boyd in Power of Faerun. Therefore, it's already established canon that Moander's essence there can corrupt divine avatars and individuals such as the Chosen of Mystra.
The text there even addressed the exact situation you bring up. Power of Faerun, pg. 118: "Moander is cunning enough to recall the echoing power of Ao and counterfeit it if multiple gods take a personal interest in what's unfolding in the Darkwatch - and Moander will infect as many powerful mortals as it can before striking to destroy mortal bodies and seize their life-force. One avatar or just two Chosen are sufficient for Moander to rise as a demigod once more..."
Rivalen is both a Chosen of Shar and holds the spark of divinity taken from Kesson Rel - this should be enough to bring him back to a weak demigod state once more. The text has Moander going after High Priests and the Chosen of Mystra, and makes it seem as if Moander has the ability to fend off direct intervention by the deities in question. Thus, if he corrupts say - the High Priestess of Tymora - the text implies that Moander can somehow convince Tymora to not intervene by pretending to be Ao.
I don't necessarily like that explanation, but that's the explanation given which gives Moander this ability canonically.
So, Finder discovers Moander returned and tells Tymora. Let's assume that he tells some other greater deities as well - such as Selune. Okay, now what?
They know Moander has returned. They have no other information aside from that. Although deities are often portrayed as stupid in novels, I don't prefer to treat them that way in my canon. Even if they also knew that the source of his return had something to do with Darkwatch, the deities aren't going to make a move.
Their first goal will be to figure out what in the world happened. They know that deities don't just return for no reason. So, they'd be concerned about wandering into a trap being laid. They'd want as much information as possible before they take direct action - and whether or not they'd take direct action is highly debatable.
Keep in mind that Moander was actively destroying Tsornyl - an Elven city - and corrupting its people before he was imprisoned. The Elven deities certainly knew this was going on, and they didn't show up on Toril to intervene directly. Why would things be different now?
Finder would certainly be in danger, and Tymora would want to protect him. This isn't in doubt. Moander would face numerous divine enemies who would want to prevent his return. This, also, is not in doubt.
But I think it's a leap to say that any deity would move to directly intervene. They'd have no idea what was going on aside from the fact that Moander has returned. Finder? He may be in danger, but he would not appear to be in immediate danger. As far as all the other deities can surmise - and they'be be correct - despite Moander's return he's STILL imprisoned in Darkwatch.
The moment they realize this the sense of urgency diminishes considerably. Their focus is likely to shift on ways to strengthen the magics that are imprisoning Moander in Darkwatch. And since Lolth has been attempting to stir up cults to Moander for her own ends, and the other gods probably don't know Lolth is behind it - they might just assume Moander's essence trapped in Darkwatch managed to get enough cultists worshiping it to be resurrected.
After all, there would be cults to Moander in the region. Some of those cults are started by those foolish enough to wander into Darkwatch in the first place. Others are backed by Lolth.
If Lolth discovers Moander has returned, she's likely going to send one of her cultists to investigate. This will probably lead them to Darkwatch and getting corrupted, which will in turn lead to them corrupting other members of Lolth-backed cults and bringing them back into the fold to worship the true Moander.
Also, you have to keep in mind that the canon is assuming that Moander is corrupting High Priests of various churches, and individuals such as the Chosen of Mystra. And that the gods that they serve are aware that their servants have been corrupted by Moander in Darkwatch... and that this doesn't really seem to bother or concern Moander very much since he seems to have the ability to handle it.
So, it seems to me based off the plot hook information given in Power of Faerun - that there isn't a lot that can or will be done by the gods to intervene or prevent Moander's return. Finder discovers Moander has returned and tells Tymora? So what. The canon is giving him the power to corrupt, not just one, but multiple Chosen of Mystra and essentially get away with it. If the canon is allowing him to get away with corrupting even just one Chosen of Mystra without Mystra intervening, I don't think he has much to worry about when it comes to Finder and Tymora. After all, if there ever was an interventionist deity in the Realms, it's Mystra. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2012 : 23:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point is that if Finder knows Moander has returned, he's going to act. It doesn't matter if he's trying to stop a specific plot or not -- he's going to be interested in killing off Moander once and for all. And since he needed Tymora's help the first time, he'd ask for her help the second time. So as soon as Moander returns, Finder knows and goes and alerts one of the greater powers of the Realms -- who would likely already know thru her own priestess.
Now, if you're determined to have Moander corrupt Mystra, I'd go about it a different way -- the Darkwatch is just too problematic.
Think about this: When Moander possessed Akabar bel Akash, he left a seed within the mage. Moander was dormant until that seed was released and activated... On top of that, the original corruption of Tyche wasn't done thru an avatar, it was done thru a rose. And other people/creatures corrupted by Moander were corrupted thru seeds or pollen.
So go that angle. Have Shar shield someone who sneaks into Mystra's divine realm, and then this sneaky person/entity leaves a seed or some pollen where Mystra will come into contact with it. This introduces the corruption into the deity without somehow getting her to a spot in the mortal world, and avoids the whole issue of waking up Moander and alerting half the pantheon.
Heck, if bringing back Moander is a goal, have the "blossoming" of his corruption within Mystra become the factor that brings him back. If not, leave him be.
That's an interesting angle, but I don't think there is enough divine essence / power in one individual to corrupt a greater deity.
Why not? It's canon that a rose infected a deity. A rose.
It's also canon that a small drop of blood was enough to wake up Moander. Just a drop.
There doesn't have to be all that much divine essence in it -- in fact, Tyche picking up the rose indicates there wasn't any at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The plot hooks involving Darkwatch already exist - they were created by Ed Greenwood and Eric L. Boyd in Power of Faerun. Therefore, it's already established canon that Moander's essence there can corrupt divine avatars and individuals such as the Chosen of Mystra.
It's also established that it can be done elsewhere, directly to the deity. Again, Tyche. And that didn't involve getting a deity or a servant to a dangerous location in the mortal world.
So it already exists that there's a much easier way to corrupt Mystra.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The text there even addressed the exact situation you bring up. Power of Faerun, pg. 118: "Moander is cunning enough to recall the echoing power of Ao and counterfeit it if multiple gods take a personal interest in what's unfolding in the Darkwatch - and Moander will infect as many powerful mortals as it can before striking to destroy mortal bodies and seize their life-force. One avatar or just two Chosen are sufficient for Moander to rise as a demigod once more..."
So is your objective raising Moander? I thought it was corrupting Mystra...
Besides, corrupted servants of Moander have worked towards resurrecting him. There's no need to bring him back first.
And I fail to understand why attacting attention is preferrable to not attracting attention.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Rivalen is both a Chosen of Shar and holds the spark of divinity taken from Kesson Rel - this should be enough to bring him back to a weak demigod state once more. The text has Moander going after High Priests and the Chosen of Mystra, and makes it seem as if Moander has the ability to fend off direct intervention by the deities in question. Thus, if he corrupts say - the High Priestess of Tymora - the text implies that Moander can somehow convince Tymora to not intervene by pretending to be Ao.
Tymora exists because of Moander and his corruption. Pretty sure she'd need a hell of a lot more than just a "well, it sounds like Ao" to be convinced not to act.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I don't necessarily like that explanation, but that's the explanation given which gives Moander this ability canonically.
Sounding like Ao doesn't mean he's going to not have any opposition. And it still fails to address why it's better to let everyone know you're back, instead of doing the more cunning thing of surprising them when it's too late for them to oppose you.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, Finder discovers Moander returned and tells Tymora. Let's assume that he tells some other greater deities as well - such as Selune. Okay, now what?
They know Moander has returned. They have no other information aside from that. Although deities are often portrayed as stupid in novels, I don't prefer to treat them that way in my canon. Even if they also knew that the source of his return had something to do with Darkwatch, the deities aren't going to make a move.
So you say they're not stupid, but you expect them to sit back and watch the return of someone who has proven capable of corrupting deities? You expect them to not do anything at all against a known enemy, while letting him get stronger?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Their first goal will be to figure out what in the world happened. They know that deities don't just return for no reason. So, they'd be concerned about wandering into a trap being laid. They'd want as much information as possible before they take direct action - and whether or not they'd take direct action is highly debatable.
I don't think it's debatable, and I don't see why they would need to gather info before gathering forces and acting. Again, a known enemy. You don't give him time to prepare, if it can be avoided.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Keep in mind that Moander was actively destroying Tsornyl - an Elven city - and corrupting its people before he was imprisoned. The Elven deities certainly knew this was going on, and they didn't show up on Toril to intervene directly. Why would things be different now?
Because he hadn't caused the destruction of a deity, at that point? Because there's a hell of a difference between attacking a city and corrupting deities? Because he hadn't been killed twice previously, at that point?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Finder would certainly be in danger, and Tymora would want to protect him. This isn't in doubt. Moander would face numerous divine enemies who would want to prevent his return. This, also, is not in doubt.
But I think it's a leap to say that any deity would move to directly intervene. They'd have no idea what was going on aside from the fact that Moander has returned. Finder? He may be in danger, but he would not appear to be in immediate danger. As far as all the other deities can surmise - and they'be be correct - despite Moander's return he's STILL imprisoned in Darkwatch.
That doesn't mean they'd not decide to make sure he would never again be a threat.
And sending in a dragon or two -- which is what killed Moander once before -- isn't the same as direct action from a deity. And before you play, once more, the "oh, he'll corrupt them!" card -- he didn't corrupt Mist. He tried very hard to kill her, and then very hard to get away. He failed at both tasks.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The moment they realize this the sense of urgency diminishes considerably. Their focus is likely to shift on ways to strengthen the magics that are imprisoning Moander in Darkwatch. And since Lolth has been attempting to stir up cults to Moander for her own ends, and the other gods probably don't know Lolth is behind it - they might just assume Moander's essence trapped in Darkwatch managed to get enough cultists worshiping it to be resurrected.
What does it matter who is behind it? Part of the point I've been trying to make is that the how and why of his return won't be of immediate concern, but the return itself would be.
And only an idiot would sit back and let a known enemy get stronger. Either they are not stupid, as you said, or they are. Make a decision.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
If Lolth discovers Moander has returned, she's likely going to send one of her cultists to investigate. This will probably lead them to Darkwatch and getting corrupted, which will in turn lead to them corrupting other members of Lolth-backed cults and bringing them back into the fold to worship the true Moander.
And this would be noticed and put Lolth on her guard.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Also, you have to keep in mind that the canon is assuming that Moander is corrupting High Priests of various churches, and individuals such as the Chosen of Mystra. And that the gods that they serve are aware that their servants have been corrupted by Moander in Darkwatch... and that this doesn't really seem to bother or concern Moander very much since he seems to have the ability to handle it.
Canon assumes it's possible, not that it's happening. Canon also shows that direct corruption of a deity is possible.
Moander couldn't handle a mortal dragon, previously. He couldn't handle a bard with a sliver of paraelemental ice. Why would he think he could handle a deity?
And the fact that he knows he would be detected does not mean he has the ability to handle it.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, it seems to me based off the plot hook information given in Power of Faerun - that there isn't a lot that can or will be done by the gods to intervene or prevent Moander's return. Finder discovers Moander has returned and tells Tymora? So what. The canon is giving him the power to corrupt, not just one, but multiple Chosen of Mystra and essentially get away with it. If the canon is allowing him to get away with corrupting even just one Chosen of Mystra without Mystra intervening, I don't think he has much to worry about when it comes to Finder and Tymora. After all, if there ever was an interventionist deity in the Realms, it's Mystra.
Where does it say Mystra would sit back and let it happen? Where does it say other deities are going to do the same?
I'm actually kind of lost, in this discussion. What's the goal? I gave you a method, based on canon events, to accomplish your goal of corrupting Mystra. Canon also shows that Moander's corruption can be used in his absence, and that corrupted entities will work towards his resurrection. So I've offered a much simpler way of accomplishing either or both of your apparent goals.
Instead, you keep telling me that this far more problematic version is better, that all the deities would sit on their hands and allow themselves to fall, and that Moander could handle anything they would do, anyway.
So I don't know your objective, any more. I don't know why you want to do it in the most difficult way possible. And I don't understand why you reject proven methods in favor of possibilities. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 13:24:18
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I had something much longer written to respond to you, Wooly... but it ended up being 10 pages long. I addressed everything you wrote point by point.
However, as I completed what I wrote I realized that we were talking past each other. So, let me take the time to clarify things.
My goals are as follows:
1. Mystra and the Weave must be corrupted, with the chance to save them at a later date. (I want to leave the door open; this avoids the Mystra dies and then is resurrected plot line.)
2. Moander must return to divinity. Much of his worship would be directed through the corrupted Mystra.
(They would be a sort of hybrid deity. The closest example to what I'm ending up with is Haask, Voice of Hargut who is one of the Seven Lost Gods. Using that as a template, Moander would be Haask, and Hargut would be Mystra. Like Haask, Moander grants a degree of lucidity to Mystra's otherwise completely insane and warped mind. Without him, she'd probably just attack and destroy everything in site until she was destroyed... much like Hargut would.)
3. The Weave must merge with the Shadow Weave.
4. Returned Netheril must be wiped out.
When I originally posted the thread, my intention was merely to see what people thought would happen if Mystra and the Weave became corrupted by Moander. Because I am going to have this happen in my Realms. The issue here isn't "if" it will happen - it's just "how" to make it happen that sticks with the canon lore.
So, if it seems like I'm brushing aside your counter arguments somewhat with responses like, "Well Moander can corrupt that." Or "Shar would have foreseen this." It's because I am.
Unless something is concretely presented that will prevent it from happening, as in it can't happen the way I outlined because Elminster currently has the Karsestone. Or, "Didn't you read that novel where Darkwatch was cleansed of Moander's taint?" Or, "Didn't you read that novel where Mystra took precautions against this very thing!" Or, "X deity tried something similar before, to corrupt the Weave, and it didn't work because of X!"
Unless something presented like the above can be offered, I'm going to dismiss it because it's not a question of "if" it's a question of "how"... and then it's a question of "what happens."
I also haven't read the novels that involve Moander or Finder. Nor do I have any intention or interest in reading them, I don't particularly like that outcome, and dislike Finder as a deity.
From some of the things you wrote, especially how Moander was treated there, there appear to be some canon inconsistencies. It wouldn't shock me to learn that a lot of the treatment Moander got in those novels was a result of the TSR Code of Ethics. I'd imagine that Moander was handed the idiot ball and ended up dead as a result so the hero could win.
I have a serious and hard bias against what I believe happened to the Realms as a result of the TSR Code of Ethics. In my opinion, a lot of things were wrecked by them, not only the deities of the setting but pretty much every major villainous group such as the Zhents. The Zhents were transformed into well... to use the term Ed uses, "Keystone Kops."
We thankfully saw a shift away from this when Wizards took the Realms. It's one of the reasons we ended up with Returned Netheril and Shar stepping forward to be the "big evil" of the Realms. This is why we saw things like the Zhents, and some of the previously more popular deities recede into the background. This is all my opinion, of course, but I am heavily biased toward it.
This is relevant because part of what I'm hoping to accomplish with my actions is the correction of some of the "mistakes" I feel were made to the Realms. I'm trying to stay somewhat close to canon while deviating from it where I feel is necessary.
I'm really hopeful about the future of the Realms, though, because based on the interview Ed gave which was posted on these forums, it seems that he sees a lot of the same problems that I do. Things like Mazica and Kara-Tur not fitting with the setting, the deities being treated like characters instead of being in the background, and he once again called the Zhents "Keystone Kops" in the interview. So, I have a good feeling that Ed "gets it" - which makes me hopeful for the future.
Anyway, this is somewhat getting us side tracked. Let me address some more of your issues.
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MOANDER'S POWER AND ABILITIES
Some of the things you wrote about obviously came from the novels, or either things I've completely overlooked in source books. In any event, it left me somewhat confused.
First, though I want to correct an assumption made about the rose. The rose was an aspect of Moander, roughly the equivalent of an avatar in the form of a rose. It was likely strategically placed somewhere where Tyche could find it. The rose therefore contained a significant chunk of Moander's divine essence. The text in F&P literally states that it was "an aspect of Moander."
Anyway, you've given me a conflicting message. On the one hand you say that only a drop of Moander's blood or some tiny fraction of him is perfectly capable of corrupting Mystra. All someone needs to do is sneak it into Dweomerheart and plant the seed on Mystra.
Then on the other hand, you're telling me that Moander's corruption is so weak that he couldn't defeat a mortal dragon, and you accuse me of playing the "Moander's corruption card".
If even a single drop of Moander's blood is sufficient to bring him back, wouldn't all of the corruption in Darkwatch be sufficient to deal with whatever stupid deity decided to show up there - no matter who it was?
My stance is that the moment anyone steps into Darkwatch Moander sends spores to corrupt them. There is no save or ability to resist. He also has the ability to deal with deities and their avatars should they show up by immediately draining them of their energy.
We both agree that the whole Ao thing in Power of Faerun is lame. This is the reason I'm using Shar to keep Moander's activities a secret. I'm still not convinced Shar can't prevent people from finding out. Learning about the tattoo's changed my plans slightly. I'm going to have Shar discover them and have them assassinated before moving on her plans, which solves that small matter that I didn't know about. It's just a minor bump in the road, because remember it's not a question of "if" but "how."
Our disagreement over Moander's ability to corrupt Mystra is in part based on my belief that Moander's chances of success increase if he is a deity once again. He's in a quasi-divine state right now in Darkwatch, and truth be told - that's probably enough. However, we know with the events of Karsus what happens when a non-divine being tries to mess with Mystra and the Weave.
Furthermore, as Moander corrupts the Shadow Weave, based on the canon in Power of Faerun, I think he'd become a deity again anyway - simply due to the power. After all, he's also looking to drain powerful magical items - not just the life essence of Chosen and Divine Avatars.
It's true, also that the "Canon assumes it's possible, not that it's happening." Power of Faerun is the measuring stick that I'm using to judge what is possible and what is not. What is possible is something that COULD happen - that's what canon is saying that this COULD happen. My response to that is to say it's not only possible, it DID happen (in my Realms).
And I gave Moander an ally to increase those odds - Shar. They were allied during the time of Netheril, so there is no reason they wouldn't be allied now.
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WHY FINDER AND HIS ALLIES DO NOT INTERVENE DIRECTLY
As previously mentioned, I'm not convinced Shar can't cover up Moander's return to divinity and his actions. When I engaged in the debate with you over what happens if Finder finds out, it was a hypothetical debate. It wasn't a situation of me agreeing with you that he would find out - I still believe Shar can prevent him from finding out.
The problem with the tattoo's, as I mentioned, can be solved by having them killed. Shar wouldn't have the ability to keep that a secret, so she'll have to find a way to have her mortal followers murder them instead.
What's important to remember here is that Shar has been planning this for at least a decade, if not more. She has literally had time to hash over this plan countless times, finding weaknesses and flaws, and building in contingencies against them. This isn't some spur of the moment whim; it's a carefully thought through plan that she intends to see successful.
Shar is sacrificing some of her power here. She will be weaker as a result of what transpires. If successful, she'll have effectively brought about the end of Returned Netheril AND lost control of the Shadow Weave. So, she has no intentions of sacrificing power and worshipers for nothing.
Isn't there some prophecy somewhere that says Shar will be weakened sometime in the future? If so, then this could be the fulfillment of that prophecy.
To answer the implied question as to why Finder and his allies don't intervene directly, the simple answer is because they don't know anything until it's too late.
However, again engaging you hypothetically here -
quote:
So you say they're not stupid, but you expect them to sit back and watch the return of someone who has proven capable of corrupting deities? You expect them to not do anything at all against a known enemy, while letting him get stronger?
...
I don't think it's debatable, and I don't see why they would need to gather info before gathering forces and acting. Again, a known enemy. You don't give him time to prepare, if it can be avoided.
...
What does it matter who is behind it? Part of the point I've been trying to make is that the how and why of his return won't be of immediate concern, but the return itself would be.
And only an idiot would sit back and let a known enemy get stronger. Either they are not stupid, as you said, or they are. Make a decision.
I want to spell out exactly why this is a bad idea, should Finder and his allies discover the truth. In my Realms, at least, Ao would prevent them from intervening directly. He would have to because he would foresee the consequences of their actions.
What you've advocated is for Finder and his allies to - I'm presuming - create avatars and go marching off in an attempt to use their combined divine might to smite Moander once and for all. In other words, they wouldn't be using their mortal followers, they'd be showing up in the Realms directly to handle the matter.
What's more they'll be doing that the moment they realize that he's returned - in your estimation, at least.
Okay, let me describe just how horribly bad that is... as I said, Shar has been planning this for some time. She's considered everything that can go wrong and has built in contingencies into her plans to ensure that she is successful. One of the most obvious things that could go wrong would be Moander's enemies showing up to smite him.
Since they didn't bother to plan ahead and gather information, they've stumbled right into a trap Shar has set for them. She was prepared - they were not. Also, it would be unwise to assume that Shar would be there alone facing off against other deities. At a minimum she'd have Cyric with her most likely, but probably Talos - who was once an ally of Moander as well as Shar. Because Talos would be there, the rest of the deities of Fury would likely be there as well.
It is very easy to predict which deities are likely to arrive, and all of these deities have enemies. Enemies who would very much enjoy an upper hand in a potential battle to weaken their foe.
Suddenly, as a result of Finder's allies jumping into the Realms to take direct action - you have a Godswar right in the middle of the Dalelands and Cormanthor Forest. ...and this Godswar isn't going to be to the advantage of Finder and his Allies - those deities who wouldn't be destroyed would be weakened, and the smartest among them will flee quickly.
This is why Ao wouldn't allow them to intervene directly. But what's more no intelligent deity would WANT to do it, because they know the consequence is a Godswar. When a deity interacts directly in the Realms, it invites the other deities to do the same... and when they're doing this they are extremely vulnerable - their avatars can be slain, and this can weaken or destroy them depending on the power of the deity and the power of the avatar that they create.
This would literally be the worst decision that Finder and his allies could make, and in all likelihood Moander would still be successful because most of this takes place BEFORE they make it to Darkwatch. (And if they did make it to Darkwatch they'd still have to contend with Moander corrupting them!)
The best decision that they could make, with the information they have, is to inform Corellon Larethian. Since he has dominion over the High Elven Magic that binds Moander in Darkwatch, Corellon can strengthen that magic to ensure that Moander remains imprisoned there. This would also be within Corellon's portfolio and an acceptable move to make in the eyes of Ao.
Moander's enemies have no idea what he is planning or what is going on... they'd certainly discover that he's still imprisoned in Darkwatch, and with Corellon's help that pretty much ensures it stays that way.
Would they want to destroy him? Absolutely. However, in their minds he's imprisoned, so that gives them time to plan on how to do that more effectively. Now, they believe they have time to discover what happened, the exact circumstances that brought him back, and come up with a method that will get rid of him permanently. They'd believe they have time.
...but they don't have time. From the second Moander returns to divinity, they'd have roughly three months and a week to stop the plan from being successful. Knowing what exactly is happening would be critical to stopping him. Unfortunately, there simply isn't enough time. By the time Moander begins - unless the deities DO act directly - it's pretty much too late.
Do they sit on their ass and twiddle their thumbs in the mean time? Of course not! They're sending their followers out to actively collect information, and are piecing things together. They're coming up with plans.
The problem is that something unforeseen is happening. Shar's literally sacrificing her faithful and the Shadow Weave - she's actively weakening herself - to land a surprise attack on Mystra and bring her down. The other deities aren't anticipating this move.
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THE AFTERMATH
The moment they realize that the Weave and Mystra have been corrupted, Mystra and Finder's allies would move to do something instantly. They don't send their avatars to Toril, though, they go to Dweomerheart in an effort to save Mystra and prevent Moander's continued corruption.
When they get there they find that she's gone insane. The corruption has quickly spread throughout the Weave, which is effecting her mind and body. She basically becomes a justified axe crazy nut and she starts attacking everyone in sight (because Moander is whispering in her mind, and knows why they are there), and I play her to her near Ao-challenging power to the hilt. She actually kills Azuth - she may kill other deities as well (she'll probably take out Finder since that's the best opportunity).
Selune then pulls a similar move she did with Tyche, and splits off part of Mystra that isn't corrupted. Selune keeps this "pure and clean" divine essence of Mystra, and pledges to find a way to cleanse the Weave of Moander's taint and restore Mystra's sanity. They can't defeat her - she's too powerful, especially on her home plane.
All deities, save Mystra, leave Dweomerheart... which Mystra continues to wreck. It becomes known as the "Ruins of Dweomerheart" - a place where Mystra spends most of her time unleashing her rage upon the hallucinations and voices that plague her mind. (I won't go into detail on how much Mystra suffers, but suffice it to say she'd rather be dead.) To prevent Mystra from doing damage to herself or others, those that gathered to save Mystra decide to imprison her on her home plane - much like Cyric was in canon. This limits what Mystra can do.
Selune becomes the new goddess of magic, and there are some portfolio changes based on what went down in Dweomerheart.
The focus then shifts to the absolute chaos, confusion, and destruction that is starting to grip the mortal world. The deities have to tend to their mortal followers, and want to try and save what they can. Other deities are trying to have their followers exploit the madness, by lying to them about what is going on, and pretty much every deity is trying to spin things in a way that is favorable to them. (Which really means that they're all lying to some degree.)
Most of Mystra and Azuth's clergy would eventually abandon them and be welcomed into the cults of Selune, Savras, or Deneir. Most of Mystra's clergy would go with Selune, and most of Azuth's clergy would divide between Deneir and Savras.
Savras would relocate to the Gates of the Moon, and Deneir would serve both Selune and Oghma.
After things start to get sorted, Ao will step in and create some new divine laws that bind the deities. I have some plans in mind for that, but I'm going to try and include things from the Sundering if possible. This allows me to avoid another major RSE after the Spellplague. (For example, if Ao gets rid of all the Abier stuff, in my Realms it would have never happened.)
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HOW SHAR AND MOANDER CORRUPT MYSTRA AND THE WEAVE
Shar begins plotting for the return of Moander shortly after his death. Unlike some of the other deities, Shar is a long term thinker. She's prepared to wait generations - if not centuries - for her plans to bare fruit. She's very careful, cautious, and meticulous when it comes to small details.
When all the leg work and preparations were made - such as the assassination of those who could reveal Moander's return - she sends a dream vision to Rivalen. She commands him to locate the Karsestone and travel to Darkwatch. Once in Darkwatch he's to await her word for her next command. He obeys.
Her next command never comes. In Darkwatch he is corrupted by Moander, who Shar visited in his dreams. She informed him of her servants arrival, and instructed him to take from him the divine essence of Kesson Rel. She notifies the slumbering Moander that her Chosen carries with him the Karsestone, and instructs him on what she has planned.
When Rivalen arrives Moander is already prepared, and quickly ensnares him. He's corrupted as instructed by Shar and his divine essence stripped from him. Moander returns to divinity. This takes place on Hammer 20, 1385 DR Year of the Blue Fire.
Shar speaks to Rivalen in his mind which in turn also echos in Moander's mind. Shar instructs them both on how to use the Karsestone to begin corrupting the Shadow Weave. Moander's corruption will be allowed to "fill the spaces between the Weave" - under normal conditions, this would be all but impossible. It would be like trying to fill a cup with water - a cup that constantly grew in size. Even though more and more water is filling the cup the space it has to fill continues to grow more rapidly than the water entering into it.
Shar prevents this from happening by "shrinking the spaces between the Weave". Moander is able to pour his corrupted essence into it using the Karsestone.
The Karsestone is unique because it is the last remnant of Karsus' divinity. It's the only object that touches both the "Entire Weave" - both the Weave Mystra controls and the spaces between it - the Shadow Weave, controlled by Shar. It also is a magical object hidden from the view of Mystra. It's a part of her, and yet it is also separate - she cannot sense it.
At the moment of Moander's return, Shar used her power over the dominion of secrets to shield him, his actions, and his return from detection by all others. Even attempting to scry into Darkwatch becomes impossible - those that make the attempt find only darkness.
Within two months time Moander's corruption of the Shadow Weave becomes difficult to hide - he was doing his best to keep it concealed. Some of the weaker willed Shadow Weave users begin to show signs of becoming mentally unstable. Their personalities begin to change noticeably as they start to descend into madness. Some of them even begin to show visible signs of the rot.
This is the first real clue to the outside world that something has changed, but at this point it's far too late to stop it.
The Netherese, however, were aware that something was off more than a month prior. Their Shadow Mythallar at the Heart of the Shade Enclave, begins to cause people in the Enclave to become sick - a slow and gradual madness along with a rot that begins on the inside until it consumes the entire body. They call it "the Shadow Plague."
The Mythallar was the most obvious source of the corruption because of it's insane power. As the Shadow Weave was corrupted, most of that corruption in and around the Shade Enclave - flowed into the Mythallar first. It was completely corrupted, and all magical items have the ability to spread their corruption to all who come into contact with them. Mythallar's and Mythals are particularly bad because they radiate magical energy - which in effect bathes everyone (and everything) in a corrupting magical radiation.
The weakest citizens of the Netherese fall prey to it first, children, the elderly, etc. Those that find it too difficult to resist. The Princes of Shade and their father watch their would-be empire slowly begin to fall ill and collapse around them.
By the end of the second month they've fled the Shade Enclave for Sakkor's. The Sakkor's Mythallar is psionic in nature. This does not stop the Shadow Plague, of course, but distancing themselves from the Shadow Weave Mythallar does help considerably.
Finally, just over a month later on the 29th of Tarsakh, 1385 DR Year of the Blue Fire - the skies across Toril are illuminated by like a strange magical aurora borealis made of Blue Fire. It's actually quite beautiful, and in the beginning some people actually take it as a good omen. However, it's a herald to an apocalypse they can scarcely imagine.
The fires burn for nearly a week in some places.
By this time all the Netherese save for three are dead. The three that survive are: Rivalen who is corrupted by Moander, Brennus Tanthul who was driven insane after trying to use his divination on the Shadow Mythallar - he was placed in extra-dimensional stasis until he could be cured - he remains trapped there, and Hadrhune the Voice of Sakkors. (Hadrhune did not die in my Realms, and he gets to rule over Thay... in a be careful what you wish for sort of way.)
Actually, while technically true that Hadrhune survived, it's kinda moot - he was utterly transformed in both mind and body. He's currently wearing the flesh of Lauzoril, the Zulkir of Enchantment - the only Zulkir to survive the Thayan Civil War. Although again survive here is a strong word - his soul and mind was consumed and his body left a husk... Hadrhune's body was mostly destroyed - the shadows pealed away from him in the way that you might peal an orange. His soul and mind was transplanted into the husk of Lauzoril to preserve him.... and use him as the voice and will of Sakkor's, whose sentient Mythallar is the true ruler of Thay. Hadrhune is little more than a glorified meat puppet with some degree of free will carrying out the strange and alien desires of the Mythallar.
All that Thay lore aside, by the 3rd of Mirtul, 1385 DR the Year of the Blue Fire, Moander's corruption reaches an equilibrium with Mystra and the Weave. He's reached the limits to what he can corrupt - he would describe trying to continue corrupting Mystra and the Weave as the equivalent of trying to swim up a waterfall.
Shar's plan has now reached its completion.
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CLOSING
I hope this clears things up. Keep in mind once again, that the issue isn't "if" it can happen, but rather "how". If you have more cases similar to you had with the tattoo's that'd be helpful. Other speculation is helpful as well, although it'll likely be dismissed away with a response that is "Shar would have a contingency built for that." or alternatively, "Moander would corrupt that."
Because again, it's not a question of "if" it would happen, but "how" it would happen and what the resulting aftermath would look like. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 15:16:08
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So this is less "If Mystra visits Darkwatch... What happens?" as much as "If Mystra visits Darkwatch... this is what I want to happen... help support my idea and if you issues challenges to my idea I will counter and/or ignore your challenges."
If you just wanted help boosting your plot, it would be easier to mention it in the title or the first post. Instead you ask "What Happens?" which will be different from your ideas as we may not agree with your premise.
you could simple have the title "Help me flesh out/support my Darkwatch idea" and get better results then you are receiving here. Or at least results you want...
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2012 : 18:19:37
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First off, awesome work, Aldrick. This is a really great synthesis of lore from across 'editions'.
I have some questions for you, though.
The goal of this 'story' is to "save" Mystra from death in 1385... But Mystra didn't die before/during/after the Plague of Spells so... Why?
What does Shar gain from this (decades in your view) long plot? (If it is the destruction of her greatest assets, it's kinda' the worst plot ever...)
Again though, awesome (story/adventure/thing). |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 01:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
So this is less "If Mystra visits Darkwatch... What happens?" as much as "If Mystra visits Darkwatch... this is what I want to happen... help support my idea and if you issues challenges to my idea I will counter and/or ignore your challenges."
If you just wanted help boosting your plot, it would be easier to mention it in the title or the first post. Instead you ask "What Happens?" which will be different from your ideas as we may not agree with your premise.
you could simple have the title "Help me flesh out/support my Darkwatch idea" and get better results then you are receiving here. Or at least results you want...
Actually, if you read my original post and follow the conversation I started by asking the following question: "So what happens to Mystra as a deity if she is corrupted by Moander? What happens to the Weave, and those who draw upon it for their arcane power? What happens to the Chosen of Mystra?"
You will notice that the premise is set in the question, the premise being that Mystra is in fact corrupted by Moander. It wasn't a question of -IF- she was corrupted by Moander, but a question of -WHAT HAPPENS- when she -IS- corrupted by Moander.
That's what I wanted when I started this thread. Obviously, I had my own idea of what would happen, but I wanted to hear other people's ideas. I didn't want it to become a debate over whether or not my idea was right or wrong, and I didn't want to influence people with my version of events. I was hoping that by doing things this way, people would come at it at a complete different angle that I never imagined. Perhaps that angle would be better than my own, more interesting, or include elements that improve my version.
Unfortunately, no one ever really stepped forward to really offer something like that, and so I decided to change tact. Then Wooly offered to play devils advocate for my proposal, which helped because it revealed information that I didn't know about - such as various people with tattoo's that would reveal Finder's return, which was helpful - and the natural flow of conversation led us to this point.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
First off, awesome work, Aldrick. This is a really great synthesis of lore from across 'editions'.
I have some questions for you, though.
The goal of this 'story' is to "save" Mystra from death in 1385... But Mystra didn't die before/during/after the Plague of Spells so... Why?
What does Shar gain from this (decades in your view) long plot? (If it is the destruction of her greatest assets, it's kinda' the worst plot ever...)
Again though, awesome (story/adventure/thing).
Ed has said that Shar would eventually dispose of the Netherese when it suited her aims. So I ran with that idea... mostly because I wanted to get rid of them, because I dislike the whole Returned Netheril deal.
Since the changes that take place need to explain why magic is different, I had to have something happen to the Shadow Weave. In 4E Shar simply loses it. In my Realms she sacrifices it so that Moander has the opportunity to strike at Mystra by surprise and corrupt her before anyone can save her.
The point? To get Mystra out of the picture, and further her aims in bringing about the end of all life in the Realms. She was more successful in these aims than she could have imagined.
Saying that she "sacrificed" some of her power to pull it off may be the wrong word to use. She would have viewed it as more of an investment than a sacrifice, and over time it would pay dividends that allow her to regain all the power she lost and more.
I allowed Selune to gain in power, because I wanted to bring the conflict between Shar and her sister back to the forefront. I felt that Mystra was stepping on that role. This allows Selune to rise and to challenge Shar on more equal footing.
As for Mystra she's weakened horribly by these events (though is still considerably powerful). Most of her clergy leave her and go to Selune, Deneir, or Savras. All people who use arcane magic or come into contact with magical items begin to suffer the effects of the Spellplague. Over time, they're driven mad and begin to rot from the inside out. People fear those who use magic and magical items. People in the Realms have a similar view of magic as the people of Amn held in previous editions. You're looking at being exiled, lynched by "burn the wizard!" crowds (sometimes with bad consequences... for the crowds), or executed depending on the place you happen to be in at the time.
This has the consequence of lowering the high fantasy feel of the Realms, which was created by the D&D ruleset where you basically had magic-mart (via things like the Thayan Enclaves). All of that stuff is in the past.
Groups like the War Wizards of Cormyr are gone... and wrecked destruction on their way down. Lots of the big named and powerful heroes (and villains as well for that matter) end up corrupted by the Spellplague. The Chosen of Mystra, ironically, are not effected by the Spellplague because Silver Fire has the ability to burn it away. They actually have the ability to "cure" those involved. This is possible because they hold within them fragments of Mystra's uncorrupted divine essence. Unfortunately for them, this isn't good news because it requires them to make tough choices and sacrifices.
I'm having Elminster create a magic device that houses fragments of his soul (similar to a lich's phylactery). When he dies his soul and the essence of Mystra in him will be transported to this phylactery-like device. It functions as a mini-mythal making the Weave safe for use in and around Candlekeep. Elminster is considerably weakened as a result of this. He takes on a new identity as the Keeper of Tomes at Candlekeep, and continues his secret work through the Harpers. Most believe Elminster died in the aftermath of the Spellplague, but he's actually here - striving as hard as he can to save as much knowledge and lore that he can as the Realms plunges head first into a dark age. So, in effect, he's brought back to his original intent: sage of the Realms.
Alustriel Silverhand and Laeral Silverhand sacrifice their portion of Mystra's divine essence to save Silverymoon's Mythal from the Spellplague's corruption. This has the effect of vastly extending Silverymoon's Mythal's radius, and also making it safe to use magic within its radius. Alustriel dies in this sacrifice, and Laeral is rendered mortal, and helps lead Silverymoon in the aftermath of the Spellplague. It survives as the Gem of the North. Waterdeep isn't as lucky.
Laeral, many people believe, died of old age. The truth of the matter is that she committed suicide, because she maintained enough of Mystra's divine essence to keep her immortality. The problem was that her body continued to age, and would have eventually rotted beyond use. She had other options (such as becoming a Lich), but this was the most noble and heroic option. She realized that she had lived a full life, and got to die on her own terms and say her goodbyes to those that she loved - it was a better fate than most people, so it was a bittersweet ending.
Both the Simbul and Alvaerele Tasundrym (the Silent Chosen) were consumed by the Sakkor's Mythallar (it's a long story). Their minds, souls, and the divine essence of Mystra that was within them is now part of the Mythallar. The Mythallar also consumed all of the surviving Zulkir's (including Szass Tam), the surviving Princes of Shade (including Telamont), and Larloch and his Liches. (Again long story.)
The Sakkor's Mythallar grew in sentience and power as a result of all of this, and is now a quasi-divine being which carries the knowledge of all the individuals it consumes. It's wholly alien, but it is using the Red Wizards toward its own ends. The Red Wizards link with this Mythallar and in turn this Mythallar uses its silver fire (which it obtained from consuming the Simbul and Alvaerele Tasundrym), to regularly cleanse them of Moander's corruption. This has allowed the Red Wizards to rebuild their nation after the civil war, and survive the worst of the Spellplague.
Unknown to the Red Wizards, when they die the Mythallar consumes their soul and minds adding to it's own power, growing knowledge, and intelligence. Being undead in Thay is outlawed - so no liches for the Red Wizards. Other means of life extension (such as stealing the life essence from living beings to continue with your own) is acceptable.
Thay is ultimately stronger than it was before, though Thay-mart is gone. It seems that no one is interested in using magic that will drive you insane and rot you from the inside out. They eventually conquer Mulhorand.
It's returned to its 'scary evil, secretive, and mysterious wizards from the far east' feel.
Halruaa is in ruins. It's own wizards destroyed it when they went insane from the Spellplague. You don't want to visit.
Cormyr got a black eye when its War Wizards started to go insane. Thankfully, a splinter faction of the Church of Amaunator was already plotting against the War Wizards. It seized the opportunity to begin its witch hunt. It's now the power behind the throne in Cormyr, which has turned into an imperial power. They've conquered Sembia. To get an idea what it feels like in Cormyr now; imagine King Arthur's Camelot being taken over by the Spanish Inquisition era Catholic Church. However, instead of the Catholic Church it's a tyrannical Sun cult that believes that they are the last true beacons of light and goodness in the world; a world that has fallen to apocalyptic darkness. A group that has no qualms about burning people they deem wicked and evil alive (or heretics), nor do they fear launching a crusade against those outside the Empire to bring the heathens into the glorious light of the illuminating Amaunator. That should give you an idea of the direction Cormyr went...
Then there are the Elves. Because in my Realms the Elves have the ability to quickly evolve and adopt to new environments (this is how we end up with so many bizarre sub-races of Elves) this posed a problem for the Elves of Toril. When they arrived on the realm of Faerie (located in the Feywild) they quickly adapted to Toril's environment, which meant that they naturally formed a link with the Weave. This means that Moander's actions would basically mean the genocide of all the Elves on Toril. The Elven deities could not allow this, and had to take the drastic measure of using their divine power to sever the connection the Elves had with the Weave.
This came at a cost. The Elves lost much of their natural racial abilities. In short, they became pointy eared humans. They lost their long lives, and many of them rapidly began to age - dying of old age.
Evermeet was lost to the Spellplague. As was Evereska. These were places that were highly magical (the corruption got Evereska's Mythal). Evermeet fell in part due to the Spellplague and other issues.
In any event, the last real surviving Elven homeland is the Cormanthor Forest. Tordynnar Rhaevaern returned to Myth Drannor under the guise of a different baelnorn, and moved to play the role of savior of his people. Tordynnar is in truth the last surviving founding member of the Eldreth Veluuthra, and has for some time studied fey magic - he had long sought for a way to abandon the Weave completely, because he could not stand the thought of using a construct controlled by a human goddess.
He eventually comes up with a ritual that will be able to directly bind Elves to the Tree of Souls that has been planted in Myth Drannor. This is where the Elves and Eladrin divide begins. The Eladrin are those that bind themselves to the Tree of Souls, and the Elves are those that do not. Only those with pure Elven blood are allowed to bind themselves to the Tree of Souls, because it is said that the ritual won't work or will corrupt the Tree otherwise. (This is a lie.)
The ritual uses fey magic, and it restores a great deal of what the Elves lost and grants them more powers besides. (For example, they don't simply gain long lives, they become immortal and are immune to things like disease.)
Cormanthor evolves into a segregated society of 'True Elves' (the Eladrin) and the 'Lesser Elves' (the non-Eladrin Elves).
The Myth Drannor Mythal is disabled and reforged using fey high magic - preventing Myth Drannor from becoming corrupted by the Spellplague.
Cormanthor begins to fall under the sway and ideology of the Eldreth Veluuthra as tensions rise with an imperialistic Cormyr and conflicts mount with the humans of the Dalelands. In short, the Dalelands and Cormanthor find themselves in an Israeli and Palestinian style conflict. The Elves have returned to their homeland, only to find it occupied by someone else (the humans). Arguments and conflicts arise and the more militarily powerful (the Eladrin / Elves) of the two sides occupies the other.
Here are the break down of the Dales -
Occupied by Cormanthor: Harrowdale and Battledale.
Conquered by Imperial Cormyr: Tasseldale, Featherdale, Archendale, and Scardale. (Cormyr has conquered all of the land north to the River Ashaba - their control ends at the Blackfeather Bridge, where they move into the occupied dales held by Cormanthor.)
The Free Dales: Shadowdale, Mistledale, Daggerdale, and Deepingdale. They form the Free Daleland Confederacy.
Cormanthor's influence isn't limited to just this region, though. They have agents all over the place. They created something known as the Feygates - gateways that can only be accessed by Elves, Eladrin, and Fey leading into the Feywild. Once there they follow paths that lead them to other Feygates back on Toril. It's somewhat of a short cut, and it allows them to bypass enemy lands.
The Feygates can only be created in places where Fey magic is strongest, and it links important Elven settlements outside of Cormanthor. So, for example, there are numerous gates leading into the High Forest, and there is a gate leading south to lands 'claimed' by Tethyr to places like Suldanessellar. It also connects back to Evermeet, and other such places.
Suffice it to say that Cormanthor is the center of elf-dom in my Realms, and it's been heavily influenced by the Eldreth Veluuthra. Not all elves recognize Cormanthor though, most of the Elves located in the Silver Marches, for example reject Cormanthor in favor of a belief that elves should unify with the other races such as humans and dwarves; an effort led by Silverymoon. Though there are tensions even there, and things are far from peaceful.
The Eladrin and Elves of Cormanthor view the Elves of Silverymoon as heretics and traitors. Many of them have embraced heresies such as the belief that Sehanine Moonbow and Selune are one and the same deity. This absolutely drives the Cormanthor Eladrin and Elves nuts, and they hate, hate, hate, HATE Silverymoon and the Silver Marches. It's often used as an example of what happens when Elves and humans intermix, and how humans corrupt the purity of Elves with their vile ways and heretical thoughts.
In lands and cities such as Baldur's Gate - and this is true for the bulk of the elves who live outside of Cormanthor's protection - they live in slums, are treated harshly and are believed to be spies for Cormanthor. They are treated poorly. Most are so poor they don't have the means or ability to flee their conditions, and so their families find themselves trapped in an endless generational cycle of poverty.
Then there are places where being an Elf or an Eladrin is no different than being a Drow - if they venture into Cormyr, for example, they'd likely be lynched on sight by angry mobs. "What's the difference between Surface Elves and Drow? Trick question. There isn't one. The only thing you need to know is if it has knife ears, kill it."
In places such as this, some Elves try to "pass" by cutting off the tips of their ears to look more human.
Ah, and I almost forgot Tordynnar Rhaevaern led the Srinshee / Oluevaera Estelda into a trap in the Feywild. She eventually returned to Myth Drannor and Cormanthor, as he knew she would. She, of course, could identify him. He led her into a trap that ultimately had them doing battle in the Feywild. Since he was better at Fey Magic than Weave Magic (which is where the Srinshee out shined him by far), he had to fight her on favorable ground. He won, ultimately.
However, he didn't kill her. Instead, he cursed her. He transformed her into a statue, and cursed her to see the world through his eyes - to know the pain of their people, so that she could understand why he fought. The Srinshee has since that time been forced to witness and endure every hardship and trial carried by an elf, eladrin, or fey on Toril. She endures it as if it were her own suffering and torment, and she only sees the torment and suffering done to them by non-elves, eladrin, or fey. This is quite traumatic to say the least, and the statue weeps endlessly - a tear shed for each such memory.
The tears have formed into a lake around the statue, and if an elf, eladrin, or fey drinks from this lake - they can be cured of the effects of the Spellplague. If a non-elf, non-eladrin, or a non-fey drinks from the lake they are poisoned and die a slow and agonizing death.
It's a secret place, though. It isn't known to many, and Tordynnar Rhaevaern regularly visits to walk the gardens fed by the Srinshee's tears.
Should the Srinshee be freed from this curse, she'd almost certainly become instantly suicidal. The pain, suffering, loss, and torment she has been forced to endure and witness would be too much for her to endure. Therefore, some type of divine intervention, such as a miracle from Selune would have to be performed to heal her mind.
Things like this - and more - is what Shar achieved directly and indirectly as a result of her efforts with Moander.
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I haven't squared all of the above away with the lore yet. However, it's my template for some of the changes I'm making to my future post Spellplague Realms. A lot of them I had already outlined prior to the idea of changing up the Spellplague (especially the stuff regarding the Elves, the Dales, and Cormyr).
Thay has undergone several revisions. I'm working out what to do with the Zhents (I know Fzoul and Manshoon are dead and replaced already), and groups such as the Arcane Brotherhood (not sure I want to get rid of them like in canon), the Twisted Rune (I want to find a way to save Shoon IV), etc. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 16:24:13
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Well, you clearly had a lot of fun playing with these ideas, and I'm sure your players will have plenty of opportunities for adventure during your *very* wailing years.
I'm going to co-opt your Darkwatch/Moander bit as a fragment of my Spellplague lore, but Moander will only very slightly weaken the Weave, while Shar will have collected his entire divine essence in the Shadow Weave... And thus subsumes him and his portfolios. |
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If Mystra visits Darkwatch... what happens?
