| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2010 : 00:01:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by PowerPlayer
Hey there guys. In my group we're running an overly powered party in 3ed. I'm a member of the high nobility in waterdeep, and command an army of 6.000 men of 5th levels. And here the insane question: Would it be possible to invade the city with my 6.000 man army during the night, and hold it?
Well it depends on tactics to enter the City, a mere 6,000 however would not hold the city for long if they managed any control at all.
The one thing you indicate clearly makes odds a little better for limited success, "member of the high nobility in waterdeep", however I do not believe even such rank would allow your character to have a personal army within the city walls of that size. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 00:25:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
What dragons... I've never read about dragons in disguis. What is this you are talking about?
Am i totally out of the loop?
Apparently. Multiple sources have covered this, but in short, there's a fair number of dragons in Waterdeep. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 00:34:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The one thing you indicate clearly makes odds a little better for limited success, "member of the high nobility in waterdeep", however I do not believe even such rank would allow your character to have a personal army within the city walls of that size.
Indeed.
Noble families are allowed "no more than 70 fully-equipped men-at-arms" and these men-at-arms are "not one massed army at a villa, but are scattered about all the noble's properties across the city." Those lines are directly from the City of Splendors boxed set. Non-nobles can have 16 bodyguards. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 01:18:28
|
Dragons in Waterdeep... I must have dosed off at some point in my hours upon hours of study. But its nice to know.
Does anyone control these dragons like say. Khelben could "ask" them to guard the city or take out a thieves guild or something like that? Or are they totally just doing what they feel like, when they feel like it??? |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 01:23:54
|
| Most of them just live there. A few are bound to various mages (Maarl, for instance), but the majority are citizens. The two main types are steel dragons and weredragons (what 3e for some stupid reason called "song dragons"). See, among other things, the 3e book Dragons of Faerun. Their presence is known to some of the movers and shakers, but most of the common folk are oblivious. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 01:58:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The two main types are steel dragons and weredragons (what 3e for some stupid reason called "song dragons").
It was to clear up the point of confusion that many had regarding the 2e weredragon. 'Twas thought to be a lycanthrope, when it actually wasn't. They were simply renamed song dragons; both names are used in Faerūn ['weredragon' not just by the ignorant]. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 02:24:38
|
See Ed's story in the REALMS OF THE DRAGONS anthology for an "undercover" dragon in Waterdeep. In 4e times, dragons also feature in one of the "Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" novels (I'd rather not spoil by naming the novel; there are few enough in the series that scribes seeking to know which one straight away can easily identify it by perusing the threads here at the Keep).
Nor are dragons or the wizards already mentioned the only powerful spellcasters to dwell in Waterdeep or visit it (priests, remember?). That's another of the reasons that a large standing army is a little on the pointless side: it just gives someone with the right spells lots of massed guys in uniform to easily blast, and gives everyone else a false sense of security up until that moment of blasting.
love to all,
THO |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 05:28:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
We are talking about 2% of the total population. That would be 10 to 15% of the males in their prime? That would be noticed.
Well you're right but I don't think you would go from 1,200 to 10,000 or 20,000 overnight. It would have to be a build up over a few years. You would have to build up the officer corps and so on. Once the levels were met, keeping those numbers would be less difficult for the popualation to keep, so you wouldn't need to recruit as many per year. Every year you would most likely need aroud 5,000 new bodies or less than half of 1% of the regional populalation.
I'm all for agreeing to disagree.
EDIT: I just wanted to add, right now Waterdeep has 6,750 people in the military when you combine the Guard, the Castle Guard, the Watch, the Air Corps, the Navy, and the merfolk and sea elves. So that's a little over 5% of the permanent city population of 122,000. So if the city does not recruit from the countryside just maintaining the present force would be pretty taxing on the city's population. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 03 May 2010 05:41:05 |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 07:55:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by PowerPlayer
Hey there guys. In my group we're running an overly powered party in 3ed. I'm a member of the high nobility in waterdeep, and command an army of 6.000 men of 5th levels. And here the insane question: Would it be possible to invade the city with my 6.000 man army during the night, and hold it?
It might be possible if you are not a stickler for canon, which would probably require ten times as many men. But the question is simple, are the high level characters able to kill Khelben and Laeral quickly? That would have to be the first move, coordinated with killing Piergeiron and at least half of the Hidden Lords before anyone knows what is going on. If they managed to do this, and had a prior alliance ready with several of the noble families (and managed to hide this from the Lords spies in some way)with plans for a quick coup, then it might be possible. The six thousand soldiers then moving in and taking control of the castle and strategic points in the confusion, disarming the guards and you claiming to have stopped a hidden plot by the Shadow Thieves or such, where most of the old Lords had been assassinated. But more troops would have to be moved into position quickly I think and a propaganda campaign defending the actions of the characters would be needed to at least sow confusion.
Then, as long as no major changes or plundering started, it might be possible. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, many of the beings in the city would not fight for the old system, so a general revolt could be avoided, but the characters would be hard pressed to survive the actions of the surviving Lords, their allies and various adventurers, in addition to various other power groups trying to move in.
As I said, I don't think it would be possible if you are strict with canon, but if not it could succeed if that where you wanted the campaign to go. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 08:04:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
We are talking about 2% of the total population. That would be 10 to 15% of the males in their prime? That would be noticed.
Well you're right but I don't think you would go from 1,200 to 10,000 or 20,000 overnight. It would have to be a build up over a few years. You would have to build up the officer corps and so on. Once the levels were met, keeping those numbers would be less difficult for the popualation to keep, so you wouldn't need to recruit as many per year. Every year you would most likely need aroud 5,000 new bodies or less than half of 1% of the regional populalation.
I'm all for agreeing to disagree.
EDIT: I just wanted to add, right now Waterdeep has 6,750 people in the military when you combine the Guard, the Castle Guard, the Watch, the Air Corps, the Navy, and the merfolk and sea elves. So that's a little over 5% of the permanent city population of 122,000. So if the city does not recruit from the countryside just maintaining the present force would be pretty taxing on the city's population.
If you recruit 5000 each year I think that that should be viewed against the birth-rate/growth, not the whole populace, as this is the number you would draw from. The reset still holds the livelihood of last year and still manage the same number of farms and businesses.
You are still not explaining who would do this, how they would defend doing it and how they would pay for it. And why they suddenly felt a great need for an army that threatened all they had built by trade and diplomacy. Lords, nobles, guilds and traders? None of them profit by this and the general populace feels safe already.
Finding the manpower is not necessarily the greatest problem.
As for present recruiting. If I remember correctly (from the City of Splendours box?)he guards contain quite a few former mercenaries and ex-adventurers from foreign lands. As the guard force is not of a size to threaten the city as a whole this is not much of a problem. |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 11:06:13
|
quote:
If you recruit 5000 each year I think that that should be viewed against the birth-rate/growth, not the whole populace, as this is the number you would draw from. The reset still holds the livelihood of last year and still manage the same number of farms and businesses.
My 5000/year is most likely too high, because you would retain a certain amount of people past their original contracts. Also depending on the length of contracts(ie 4 years, 5 years, ect) you would bring the yearly number down even further.
As to your other questions: Who wants this? Me How to pay for it? Well, I guess through taxes, but I would have to look into that. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 11:24:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
As to your other questions: Who wants this? Me
Sorry if that came out wrong, that was not meant as an out-of-Faerun comment. And no offense intended.
What I mean is; the lords (as of now, and I then mean 14th century, this might have changed in 4th ed.) would not be interested, the guilds most likely wouldn't either. Any nobles that thought it would be a good idea would be blocked by the others, and the general populace don't feel threatened nor are there any imperialistic waves going through the city at the moment. So who and why would any of these undertake the task, with the costs and risks involved? |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 12:43:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
As to your other questions: Who wants this? Me How to pay for it? Well, I guess through taxes, but I would have to look into that.
Weellll... Raising taxes might solve the entire issue. A lot of the tax base is mobile (foreign traders or local craftsmen with transposable skills), and they might just vote with their feet and seek greener pastures (Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate...). Worst case scenario - popular uprising. Which would be ironic, because a popular uprising would put an end to the taxes that were needed to prevent/smack down on popular uprisings.
No, before raising an army, one must always figure out how to pay for it beforehand. Tactics win battles, but you need logistics to win a war. |
Edited by - Thauramarth on 03 May 2010 13:31:51 |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 13:37:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The one thing you indicate clearly makes odds a little better for limited success, "member of the high nobility in waterdeep", however I do not believe even such rank would allow your character to have a personal army within the city walls of that size.
Indeed.
Noble families are allowed "no more than 70 fully-equipped men-at-arms" and these men-at-arms are "not one massed army at a villa, but are scattered about all the noble's properties across the city." Those lines are directly from the City of Splendors boxed set. Non-nobles can have 16 bodyguards.
True, but that would not stop naughty nobles massing armies, right? The original poster mentioned "invade", so I would assume that a noble with such designes would keep his army outside the city walls, and would get them in through use of his 70 allowed, plus some irregulars (adventuring bands, anyone?) brought in. That lot storms one of the gates, and in they come. Or, come to think of it, let's just gate them in.
Invading in one night? Possible. Holding for one night? Well, also possible. But then comes the morning and people start waking up. If the population and the other nobles do not do in the invaders (who, as Hoondatha already mentioned, could not rely on concentrating their forces to exploit their numbers), then some of the heavy hitters (Khelben et al.) will. In which case, Khelben etc. will probably be annoyed, because the invaders cannot concentrates to be conveniently wiped out in one barrage.
Plus, to paraphrase the illustrious owner of Rick's Café américain, "Major, there are some parts of Waterdeep that I recommend you do not try to invade." |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 13:42:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
As to your other questions: Who wants this? Me How to pay for it? Well, I guess through taxes, but I would have to look into that.
Weellll... Raising taxes might solve the entire issue. A lot of the tax base is mobile (foreign traders or local craftsmen with transposable skills), and they might just vote with their feet and seek greener pastures (Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate...). Worst case scenario - popular uprising. Which would be ironic, because a popular uprising would put an end to the taxes that were needed to prevent/smack down on popular uprisings.
No, before raising an army, one must always figure out how to pay for it beforehand. Tactics win battles, but you need logistics to win a war.
Well right now the taxes are very low:
1cp per market stall/day
1sp per conviction
1gp/sword sold
5gp/ship docked
1gp/wagon leaving the city
1% nobles annual income
I think the nobles can afford more than 1%. |
|
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 13:44:22
|
| Nobles can be corrupted, hiding their true income. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 15:06:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
As to your other questions: Who wants this? Me How to pay for it? Well, I guess through taxes, but I would have to look into that.
Weellll... Raising taxes might solve the entire issue. A lot of the tax base is mobile (foreign traders or local craftsmen with transposable skills), and they might just vote with their feet and seek greener pastures (Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate...). Worst case scenario - popular uprising. Which would be ironic, because a popular uprising would put an end to the taxes that were needed to prevent/smack down on popular uprisings.
No, before raising an army, one must always figure out how to pay for it beforehand. Tactics win battles, but you need logistics to win a war.
Well right now the taxes are very low:
1cp per market stall/day
1sp per conviction
1gp/sword sold
5gp/ship docked
1gp/wagon leaving the city
1% nobles annual income
I think the nobles can afford more than 1%.
Many of the nobles are also traders, which would make it difficult to separate the two. And with the taxing of the traders problems start.
I am also unsure if an increase in the nobles tax would be enough, there are not that many nobles. The selling of titles was a well known method of getting some extra cash in periods, but I don't think the present rulers would be stupid enough to do that.
The increase of taxes by rulers to pay for various schemes was a common source of revolt in the middle ages, both by nobles and the peasantry. |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 16:18:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well right now the taxes are very low:
1cp per market stall/day
1sp per conviction
1gp/sword sold
5gp/ship docked
1gp/wagon leaving the city
1% nobles annual income
I think the nobles can afford more than 1%.
I am sure they can afford more, it's just that they may not want to. Actually, make that "they do not want to." |
|
|
|
Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 17:02:34
|
I agree with Thauramarth and Jorkens: no one on the scene in canon would want a military expansion.
So, Riverwind, who exactly would push for this? An ambitious Lord or wannabe-noble wouldn't want a larger standing army in their way, and none of Waterdeep's rivals would want one, either.
You point out that (from your point of view) Waterdeep's population is undertaxed. I think those tax levels are why the place is a popular trading center, and anyone raising them courts resistance. Particularly as there's no draft and no tradition of one within the memories of living citizens.
More importantly, I'm still waiting to read any response from you at all to THO's post on Page Six where she demolished several points you made. Seems she and Hoondatha are right: when someone points out a flaw or fallacy in your arguments, you just ignore them, say nothing, and move on to other topics.
If we're going to behave that way, then I'll turn it around: your arguments so far in this thread lead me to believe that Waterdeep shouldn't have an army at all.
Instead, they should have a secret force of undercover "James Bond" -style secret agents dedicated to killing powerful wizards who aren't part of that same secret force...plus the Watch on the streets, to stop brawls and arson and petty crime.
Yes, that's just my unsupported opinion, but, hey, that would lower taxes and save all the work on boot camps and a draft and military contracts and upsetting Waterdeep's rivals and the traders who flock there.
Or is Ed even more devious than I've thought, and has installed this force already, and "Force Grey" (or whatever they're no called) is just a front for them? Bwoohahahaha!
I await counter-arguments. 
BB
|
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 17:04:24
|
Oh, Blueblade, dear! You've found out, now, and I don't think certain parties will be able to let you continue to exist...
Run! Run while you can! I'll try to get Ed to help hold them off, until you can go to ground!
love,
THO
 |
|
|
|
Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 17:09:29
|
Riverwind, "You would have to build up the officer corps" ??
I think THO's pegged you. You ARE thinking like a modern-day military guy.
When I play in the Realms, I don't want Black Hawk Down or any other real-world modern military experience, I want medieval fantasy.
Sorry, but I really can't see Waterdeep with draft boards, drill sergeants, military police, boot camps, and all of that.
Nor do I want "the new canon" Waterdeep you seem to be trying to build to have that.
Not meaning to offend, but I think this whole thing's just a non-starter. |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 05:07:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
...and none of Waterdeep's rivals would want one, either.
You point out that (from your point of view) Waterdeep's population is undertaxed. I think those tax levels are why the place is a popular trading center, and anyone raising them courts resistance.
So because your rivals would not want a larger army you wouldn't build one? On your point on taxes, supply-side economics in real life has been a horrible failure. |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 05:13:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Baleful Avatar
Riverwind, "You would have to build up the officer corps" ??
I think THO's pegged you. You ARE thinking like a modern-day military guy.
When I play in the Realms, I don't want Black Hawk Down or any other real-world modern military experience, I want medieval fantasy.
Sorry, but I really can't see Waterdeep with draft boards, drill sergeants, military police, boot camps, and all of that.
Nor do I want "the new canon" Waterdeep you seem to be trying to build to have that.
Not meaning to offend, but I think this whole thing's just a non-starter.
You can call them whatever you like: Capatain or Civilar, Sergeant or Armar, the fact is the Guard would have officers or some type of leadership structure. In fact it does. |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 05:32:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well right now the taxes are very low:
1cp per market stall/day
1sp per conviction
1gp/sword sold
5gp/ship docked
1gp/wagon leaving the city
1% nobles annual income
I think the nobles can afford more than 1%.
I am sure they can afford more, it's just that they may not want to. Actually, make that "they do not want to."
You don't know that. If someone told me I only had to pay 2% in taxes, compared to 38% here in NYC, I wouldn't be leading any revolts. Also there are other taxes that could be employeed; property taxes, taxes on all weapons (not just swords,) etc. Also why do the nobles pay a tax while non noble wealthy families seem to pay none? |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 07:26:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well right now the taxes are very low:
1cp per market stall/day
1sp per conviction
1gp/sword sold
5gp/ship docked
1gp/wagon leaving the city
1% nobles annual income
I think the nobles can afford more than 1%.
I am sure they can afford more, it's just that they may not want to. Actually, make that "they do not want to."
You don't know that. If someone told me I only had to pay 2% in taxes, compared to 38% here in NYC, I wouldn't be leading any revolts. Also there are other taxes that could be employeed; property taxes, taxes on all weapons (not just swords,) etc. Also why do the nobles pay a tax while non noble wealthy families seem to pay none?
A matter of perspective. If someone decided to double your tax rate, you might actually be leading a revolt. The nobles of Waterdeep do not have an interest in strengthening the authorities any further - they are likely to perceive an increase in the power of the central authorities as an attempt to reduce their own power. Zero-sum game. |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 07:29:46
|
In the 3E Waterdeep sourcbook they give the following stats on Waterdeep:
Spending Limit: 100,000gp
Assets: 663,300,000gp (3,316,500,000gp in summer months.)
Does anyone know what those numbers mean? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 07:38:34
|
| It is also a matter of reputation. That was made to avoid feeling of oppression of populace. I believe that Waterdeep is one of the city actively controlled by Harpers. They are the main reason of peaceful and tranquil future. If you don't like it, try to persuade them, which is unlikely. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 10:02:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well right now the taxes are very low:
1cp per market stall/day
1sp per conviction
1gp/sword sold
5gp/ship docked
1gp/wagon leaving the city
1% nobles annual income
I think the nobles can afford more than 1%.
I am sure they can afford more, it's just that they may not want to. Actually, make that "they do not want to."
You don't know that. If someone told me I only had to pay 2% in taxes, compared to 38% here in NYC, I wouldn't be leading any revolts. Also there are other taxes that could be employeed; property taxes, taxes on all weapons (not just swords,) etc. Also why do the nobles pay a tax while non noble wealthy families seem to pay none?
A matter of perspective. If someone decided to double your tax rate, you might actually be leading a revolt. The nobles of Waterdeep do not have an interest in strengthening the authorities any further - they are likely to perceive an increase in the power of the central authorities as an attempt to reduce their own power. Zero-sum game.
Thauramarth,
I wanted to go back to your point on whether or not the nobles could afford higher taxes. In the COS web enhancement they give a "resource limit[gp]" for the noble houses. As an example, the Thann House has a 37,000gp resource limit. But I'm not sure what those numbers mean? |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 13:24:11
|
"Can afford" and "will pay" are two completely separate things. I don't think anyone would deny that the nobles of Waterdeep "could" afford to pay more, even a great deal more, in taxes. Whether they will, however, is a completely different thing. Most of Waterdeeps nobles are actually very rich, very exclusive merchants (like the nobles of Sembia). Merchants have mobility, and there are already plenty of clans that have ties in other nations (like Cormyr). If Waterdeep started raising its tax rate, you would soon see nobles moving to other cities (again, Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate get mentioned, Tethyr after the Restoration, Amn, Cormyr, the list goes on).
These are the folks who have the motive and the wherewithal to pick up everything they have and move elsewhere, and still thrive in their new place. Of course, it would be a big hassle, but merchant clans have left realms for plenty of other reasons. They like the current system just fine, start messing with it too much and they'll leave. Not all of them, of course, and even then you'd see others coming up to take their place, but it would be a royal mess, and at least at first any replacement nobles would be pale shadows of the old ones. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2010 : 13:29:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
"Can afford" and "will pay" are two completely separate things. I don't think anyone would deny that the nobles of Waterdeep "could" afford to pay more, even a great deal more, in taxes. Whether they will, however, is a completely different thing. Most of Waterdeeps nobles are actually very rich, very exclusive merchants (like the nobles of Sembia). Merchants have mobility, and there are already plenty of clans that have ties in other nations (like Cormyr). If Waterdeep started raising its tax rate, you would soon see nobles moving to other cities (again, Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate get mentioned, Tethyr after the Restoration, Amn, Cormyr, the list goes on).
These are the folks who have the motive and the wherewithal to pick up everything they have and move elsewhere, and still thrive in their new place. Of course, it would be a big hassle, but merchant clans have left realms for plenty of other reasons. They like the current system just fine, start messing with it too much and they'll leave. Not all of them, of course, and even then you'd see others coming up to take their place, but it would be a royal mess, and at least at first any replacement nobles would be pale shadows of the old ones.
It's hard to get into their heads and try to find out if they would move out of the city if they were paying 2 instead of 1% in taxes. But do you know what the resource limit number is given in COS? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Waterdeep's army
Topic Locked
