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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 10:08:38
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| I'm just thinking about what both Jorkens and Thauramarth said, that no matter how much Waterdeep tried, the traders would still need guards. Well sure. I live in NYC and crime is way down over the last decade thanks to the NYPD, but that doesn't mean if you own a bank you don't hire an armored car to move your cash. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 10:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Jorkens and Thauramarth,
I get what both of you are saying that most traders would still need guards no matter how hard Waterdeep attempted to control the countyside. I also do get the point that most traders most likely prefer a weaker state. Having said that, the population in the North needs to stop acting like the wild west, and someone needs to establish some order.
Thauramarth, your point on Raurlor is well taken, as is the point that people in Waterdeep might be very weary of a large army. But, was Raurlor wrong? I mean Waterdeep kept getting attacked and he was going to change that. The fact of the matter is Ahghairon staged a coup against the state. I know the books want us to believe that Raurlor was the bad guy, but even the Lords today are not exactly champions of personal liberties; from FR1:
"...the Watch can enter any building or area in the City without hindrance or warning..."
PS Thauramarth, thanks for correcting my spelling.
I would say that this is somewhat going against canon, but does that really matter? If you want it to be the situation, do it. But it doesn't really match up with the Realms as presented.
As for them not acting like the Wild West. Hell, this is the middle ages on turbo, not the 19th century. The Amber routs, Silk roads, Hansa city's etc, etc, are not exactly the story of the established state and modern government. The people living in the area and using the routs probably don't see it as a situation where someone "needs" to step in and establish order. Who's order should that be? The strongest state? Any attempt by Waterdeep to put themselves up as "Keepers of Justice and order" would be opposed by Silverymoon, Luskan, Amn and the independent city's (both inside and outside of the Lords Alliance), which would make for an opposition to strong even for Waterdeep. And how would they recruit an army to do standa against these states? Taking out a large part of the producing populace to fight for the nobles and traders? Raw recruits against seasoned southern mercenaries would be a slaughter. It could be an interesting conflict, but it would be very disruptive to trade and the Waterdhavian economy as a whole.
There are also the fact that there are ties between the Lords and the Harpers; this is not exactly something the Harpers would rejoice over.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 12:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Jorkens and Thauramarth,
I get what both of you are saying that most traders would still need guards no matter how hard Waterdeep attempted to control the countyside. I also do get the point that most traders most likely prefer a weaker state. Having said that, the population in the North needs to stop acting like the wild west, and someone needs to establish some order.
Thauramarth, your point on Raurlor is well taken, as is the point that people in Waterdeep might be very weary of a large army. But, was Raurlor wrong? I mean Waterdeep kept getting attacked and he was going to change that. The fact of the matter is Ahghairon staged a coup against the state. I know the books want us to believe that Raurlor was the bad guy, but even the Lords today are not exactly champions of personal liberties; from FR1:
"...the Watch can enter any building or area in the City without hindrance or warning..."
PS Thauramarth, thanks for correcting my spelling.
The hey? Waterdeep is already known to be a safe and orderly place. And while legal authorities entering a building unasked isn't exactly kosher by the US Constitution, I hardly see that one individual factoid as a huge infringement of personal liberties. If the Watch was wandering into buildings at the drop of a hat, it'd be one thing -- but we've not seen that. Having the legal authority to do something does not mean they're abusing it. |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 13:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well, that's not fair. If it's published it's canon, if it's not, then it's not canon.
It's pretty hard to cry, "Canon!" when the very point of the thread you created contradicts the canon.
The thread doesn't contradict canon, it's trying to say that the canon number is too low.
 So, you're saying that you're not contradicting the canon, just that the canon is wrong?  |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
Edited by - capnvan on 30 Apr 2010 13:42:50 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 14:12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Jorkens and Thauramarth,
I get what both of you are saying that most traders would still need guards no matter how hard Waterdeep attempted to control the countyside. I also do get the point that most traders most likely prefer a weaker state. Having said that, the population in the North needs to stop acting like the wild west, and someone needs to establish some order.
Thauramarth, your point on Raurlor is well taken, as is the point that people in Waterdeep might be very weary of a large army. But, was Raurlor wrong? I mean Waterdeep kept getting attacked and he was going to change that. The fact of the matter is Ahghairon staged a coup against the state. I know the books want us to believe that Raurlor was the bad guy, but even the Lords today are not exactly champions of personal liberties; from FR1:
"...the Watch can enter any building or area in the City without hindrance or warning..."
PS Thauramarth, thanks for correcting my spelling.
The hey? Waterdeep is already known to be a safe and orderly place. And while legal authorities entering a building unasked isn't exactly kosher by the US Constitution, I hardly see that one individual factoid as a huge infringement of personal liberties. If the Watch was wandering into buildings at the drop of a hat, it'd be one thing -- but we've not seen that. Having the legal authority to do something does not mean they're abusing it.
True. But still having people bust down your door is pretty extreme. I wonder who makes that call, the Watch commander on-site? |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 14:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well, that's not fair. If it's published it's canon, if it's not, then it's not canon.
It's pretty hard to cry, "Canon!" when the very point of the thread you created contradicts the canon.
The thread doesn't contradict canon, it's trying to say that the canon number is too low.
So, you're saying that you're not contradicting the canon, just that the canon is wrong?
Cap, you're telling me that everything you read in a FR sourcebook or FR novel made sense to you? Now granted if it's in print I would say it's canon, but like any complex setting (Star Wars, Star Trek, the Forgotten Realms) there are things that just don't make any sense.
Now having said that, these writers and developers do a great job. I sure as hell couldn't do it, but again, sometimes things don't make sense. But on this issue, I'm the only one, oh well. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 14:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Jorkens and Thauramarth,
I get what both of you are saying that most traders would still need guards no matter how hard Waterdeep attempted to control the countyside. I also do get the point that most traders most likely prefer a weaker state. Having said that, the population in the North needs to stop acting like the wild west, and someone needs to establish some order.
Thauramarth, your point on Raurlor is well taken, as is the point that people in Waterdeep might be very weary of a large army. But, was Raurlor wrong? I mean Waterdeep kept getting attacked and he was going to change that. The fact of the matter is Ahghairon staged a coup against the state. I know the books want us to believe that Raurlor was the bad guy, but even the Lords today are not exactly champions of personal liberties; from FR1:
"...the Watch can enter any building or area in the City without hindrance or warning..."
PS Thauramarth, thanks for correcting my spelling.
The hey? Waterdeep is already known to be a safe and orderly place. And while legal authorities entering a building unasked isn't exactly kosher by the US Constitution, I hardly see that one individual factoid as a huge infringement of personal liberties. If the Watch was wandering into buildings at the drop of a hat, it'd be one thing -- but we've not seen that. Having the legal authority to do something does not mean they're abusing it.
True. But still having people bust down your door is pretty extreme. I wonder who makes that call, the Watch commander on-site?
I would say yes, in most cases. Where rich merchants or nobles are concerned a higher authority would probably be prudent though. Money and power counts for something even in the fairest of societies and Waterdeep is still a more or less medieval city.
And I wouldn't call it extreme (in the context of a non-modern society that is) as long as it was not a common happening tied to bribes, random arrests and other abuses of power. A system of warrants and chain of commands deciding every detail of the watch's interaction with the citizens would seem a bit out of place in a medieval city don't you think? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 14:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Cap, you're telling me that everything you read in a FR sourcebook or FR novel made sense to you? Now granted if it's in print I would say it's canon, but like any complex setting (Star Wars, Star Trek, the Forgotten Realms) there are things that just don't make any sense.
Now having said that, these writers and developers do a great job. I sure as hell couldn't do it, but again, sometimes things don't make sense. But on this issue, I'm the only one, oh well.
No it doesn't always make sense, but that is what canon is. The established version. Its not the same as the most logical, or even best, version. There are plenty of things that I ignore and plenty of things that doesn't work. For example, naming the villages of Netheril after members of Deep Purple singer Ian Gillans solo bands was a stupid idea (and I am a fan of Gillan), but they are still a part of canon, even in the Grand History. I will never accept this, but by that I also choose to ignore canon. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 14:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Cap, you're telling me that everything you read in a FR sourcebook or FR novel made sense to you? Now granted if it's in print I would say it's canon, but like any complex setting (Star Wars, Star Trek, the Forgotten Realms) there are things that just don't make any sense.
Now having said that, these writers and developers do a great job. I sure as hell couldn't do it, but again, sometimes things don't make sense. But on this issue, I'm the only one, oh well.
No it doesn't always make sense, but that is what canon is. The established version. Its not the same as the most logical, or even best, version. There are plenty of things that I ignore and plenty of things that doesn't work. For example, naming the villages of Netheril after members of Deep Purple singer Ian Gillans solo bands was a stupid idea (and I am a fan of Gillan), but they are still a part of canon, even in the Grand History. I will never accept this, but by that I also choose to ignore canon.
Right. As fans we're the biggest critics. Some things we love, some things we hate. (some threads on this board we love, others we hate ) People keep saying, Riverwind if that's what you want in your campaign, then do it. Of course, all of our worlds are going to be different from each others, that's what makes the game great. We don't follow a script, what fun would that be? But as fans don't we talk about the things we like and don't like? I would hope yes.
I just think the 1,200 number is way too low. It does not cover their commitments, nevermind think about expansion. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 14:45:34
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quote:
And I wouldn't call it extreme (in the context of a non-modern society that is) as long as it was not a common happening tied to bribes, random arrests and other abuses of power. A system of warrants and chain of commands deciding every detail of the watch's interaction with the citizens would seem a bit out of place in a medieval city don't you think?
I never really thought of the Forgotten Realms as medieval. I always thought of it as a little more enlightened. But still, you're most likely right. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 16:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I'm just thinking about what both Jorkens and Thauramarth said, that no matter how much Waterdeep tried, the traders would still need guards. Well sure. I live in NYC and crime is way down over the last decade thanks to the NYPD, but that doesn't mean if you own a bank you don't hire an armored car to move your cash.
Well, that may be true, but consider this: you still move within an area where the Forces of Law and Order are in charge, as is the norm, although not always fact, in Real Earth, where most pieces of land are nominally under some form of public authority. In the Realms, this is simply not the case everywhere. Crime is not eradicated in Waterdeep, but you'll have to admit that there is a difference between walking the streets of Waterdeep at night (not necessarily a good idea, but the Watch can keep things under control), and travelling the uncontrolled lands (hence my example of a caravan from Scornubel to Waterdeep). In Waterdeep, in theory, you only need enough protection to hold out long enough for the Watch to come and intervene. In the unsettled lands, you're on your own, for months on end, and you cannot rely on anyone coming to your rescue. That requires more guards than you'd need in Waterdeep.
There are huge stretches of land, in particular the Western Heartlands, which are not under anyone's authority (a lot of independent villages, small fiefs, etc.). I said that within the range of Waterdeep's regular patrols, the roads are pretty safe, but outside that, it just does not depend on Waterdeep. In my view, that's from Zundbridge southwards, and from Rassalanter up north, Waterdeep does not have regular patrols. (And the Waterdeep contingent in Daggerford, badly named though it may be, is not "typical", I think, but was placed there as support to the Dukes of Daggerford after the various Dragonspear Wars). Outside the range of those patrols, however, there is no continuous area of control, and merchants, and travellers in general, will need their own protection, and they will need more of it. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 17:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Thauramarth, your point on Raurlor is well taken, as is the point that people in Waterdeep might be very weary of a large army. But, was Raurlor wrong? I mean Waterdeep kept getting attacked and he was going to change that. The fact of the matter is Ahghairon staged a coup against the state. I know the books want us to believe that Raurlor was the bad guy, but even the Lords today are not exactly champions of personal liberties; from FR1:
"...the Watch can enter any building or area in the City without hindrance or warning..."
Isn't it always?  Raurlor declared an "Empire of the North." That's not to say that he was evil, but he was turning Waterdeep into a military camp, and a lot of Waterdhavian society was not happy about it. Ahghairon may have launched a coup against the leader. But it would seem that Raurlor may not have come into power in a "legitimate" way himself; he was Warlord (equivalent to commander of the armed forces, I think). Regardless, even if Ahghairon took matters into his hands, it worked out well for Waterdeep. The citizenry did not seem to mind. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 17:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Right. As fans we're the biggest critics. Some things we love, some things we hate. (some threads on this board we love, others we hate) People keep saying, Riverwind if that's what you want in your campaign, then do it. Of course, all of our worlds are going to be different from each others, that's what makes the game great. We don't follow a script, what fun would that be? But as fans don't we talk about the things we like and don't like? I would hope yes.
Damn straight. Amen to that. Although you may have noticed I have disagreed with Riverwind on several occasions, this has been an interesting discussion! And, no, canon does not always make sense. Impiltur (or rather, the two Impilturs), anyone (at least before Krash sank his teeth into it)? The Fallen Kingdom (same)? The Dawn Cataclysm (still unresolved...).
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I just think the 1,200 number is way too low. It does not cover their commitments, nevermind think about expansion.
Looking back on things, this is the first time I actually noticed the original post, with a reference to one million people living in or around Waterdeep. This number struck me as being too high - I remember that Waterdeep's permanent population is usually set around 120k - 125k, and I don't see 875k people living in the area that I consider to be under Waterdeep's control. So, I was wondering where you got the number
On the basis that the population available to Waterdeep is less than one million (and I am willing to be proven wrong, as I do not have access to any sources post 2E), my question would be - "What expansion"? Waterdeep does not need / want to expand. Come to think of it, Waterdeep actually has pretty decent natural defenses - to the south three rivers, of which two major ones (Delimbiyr, Dessarin, and the Ardeep in between), to the north the Sword Mountains and the Sword Hills, and to the east the Ardeep Forest. Attempting to establish control beyond those natural borders will require disproportionate manpower. By expanding geographically, it will not acquire much in the way of natural resources anyway, and not much in the way of political power (it would earn the distrust of many of its trading partners in the Savage Frontier, though).
Which brings me to the "less than one million" point - I do not think that Waterdeep has the demography to raise a bigger standing army. The army of the City of Waterdeep in wartime is around 12,000, which comes down to 10% of the city's permanent population... That's about as high as it can get without causing economic breakdown.
Edit: Yay. My third star. |
Edited by - Thauramarth on 30 Apr 2010 17:40:55 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 17:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
And I wouldn't call it extreme (in the context of a non-modern society that is) as long as it was not a common happening tied to bribes, random arrests and other abuses of power. A system of warrants and chain of commands deciding every detail of the watch's interaction with the citizens would seem a bit out of place in a medieval city don't you think?
I never really thought of the Forgotten Realms as medieval. I always thought of it as a little more enlightened. But still, you're most likely right.
They are (well, officially, but I always ran them as late Dark Ages), but when it comes to guards and the treatment of common people by such it wasn't all that much better if the governing hand was an enlightened Medici than if it was an early Capetian. Enlightenment didn't go that deep until recently; and who are we kidding really, it doesn't go that deep even now unfortunately. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 18:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Cap, you're telling me that everything you read in a FR sourcebook or FR novel made sense to you? Now granted if it's in print I would say it's canon, but like any complex setting (Star Wars, Star Trek, the Forgotten Realms) there are things that just don't make any sense.
Now having said that, these writers and developers do a great job. I sure as hell couldn't do it, but again, sometimes things don't make sense. But on this issue, I'm the only one, oh well.
No it doesn't always make sense, but that is what canon is. The established version. Its not the same as the most logical, or even best, version. There are plenty of things that I ignore and plenty of things that doesn't work. For example, naming the villages of Netheril after members of Deep Purple singer Ian Gillans solo bands was a stupid idea (and I am a fan of Gillan), but they are still a part of canon, even in the Grand History. I will never accept this, but by that I also choose to ignore canon.
Right. As fans we're the biggest critics. Some things we love, some things we hate. (some threads on this board we love, others we hate) People keep saying, Riverwind if that's what you want in your campaign, then do it. Of course, all of our worlds are going to be different from each others, that's what makes the game great. We don't follow a script, what fun would that be? But as fans don't we talk about the things we like and don't like? I would hope yes.
I just think the 1,200 number is way too low. It does not cover their commitments, nevermind think about expansion.
And if you want them to expand and try for a military position of power, then you change the numbers. The city (for some reason) starts to train soldiers, recruit mercenaries etc. The adventures are plenty in a situation such as this. What is driving the lords, how will the various factions within react to a dramatical increase of taxes and how will the southern powers react? Even a doubling or tripling of the army would get people talking and cause quite a bit of intrigue to develop. The canon situation right now is the army as stated, but if you want the city to pursue a different politic, then this will of course change, maybe creating a very different Waterdeep from the one portrayed until now. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 22:20:07
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quote:
Looking back on things, this is the first time I actually noticed the original post, with a reference to one million people living in or around Waterdeep. This number struck me as being too high - I remember that Waterdeep's permanent population is usually set around 120k - 125k, and I don't see 875k people living in the area that I consider to be under Waterdeep's control. So, I was wondering where you got the number
On the basis that the population available to Waterdeep is less than one million (and I am willing to be proven wrong, as I do not have access to any sources post 2E), my question would be - "What expansion"? Waterdeep does not need / want to expand. Come to think of it, Waterdeep actually has pretty decent natural defenses - to the south three rivers, of which two major ones (Delimbiyr, Dessarin, and the Ardeep in between), to the north the Sword Mountains and the Sword Hills, and to the east the Ardeep Forest. Attempting to establish control beyond those natural borders will require disproportionate manpower. By expanding geographically, it will not acquire much in the way of natural resources anyway, and not much in the way of political power (it would earn the distrust of many of its trading partners in the Savage Frontier, though).
Which brings me to the "less than one million" point - I do not think that Waterdeep has the demography to raise a bigger standing army. The army of the City of Waterdeep in wartime is around 12,000, which comes down to 10% of the city's permanent population... That's about as high as it can get without causing economic breakdown.
Edit: Yay. My third star.
The third edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book puts the Waterdeep regional population at 1,347,840. There was another book that gave a number that was very similar, but I can't find it. (The number in the other book was based on the winter population, I guess when people were home after the trading season.) Granted, much of this population is independent of Waterdeep, but I think Waterdeep would be able to pull a certain % for the Guard |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2010 : 08:41:31
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The entry in Waterdeep & the North (1ed. I know, but to me its always oldest before newest) says that the city's population rarely goes below 122,000 beings (which is a rather open formulation), with the number often reaching five times that number during the busiest trading season. Now, the trouble here is that that last number is high enough, but a large part of it consists of hired guards, traders, hunters, sailors and other non-natives that would have little interest in serving the city unless they could pay really well.
But I will agree with you on one thing. In the high season of trade with so many visitors the guard would probably need to be strengthened in some way, it would be a busy time both for the Lords agents (rooting out spies, foreign assasins and agents etc) and the guards (handling drunken drovers, giant fur-traders, Amnian mercenaries, dwarven miners, northmen sailors, calimshite slave owners, hobgoblins and fey, all of them mixed together in one area)who has to try to keep some sort of order. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2010 : 09:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The entry in Waterdeep & the North (1ed. I know, but to me its always oldest before newest) says that the city's population rarely goes below 122,000 beings (which is a rather open formulation), with the number often reaching five times that number during the busiest trading season. Now, the trouble here is that that last number is high enough, but a large part of it consists of hired guards, traders, hunters, sailors and other non-natives that would have little interest in serving the city unless they could pay really well.
But I will agree with you on one thing. In the high season of trade with so many visitors the guard would probably need to be strengthened in some way, it would be a busy time both for the Lords agents (rooting out spies, foreign assasins and agents etc) and the guards (handling drunken drovers, giant fur-traders, Amnian mercenaries, dwarven miners, northmen sailors, calimshite slave owners, hobgoblins and fey, all of them mixed together in one area)who has to try to keep some sort of order.
Right, the city population is 122,000. This is from COS talking about the area right around Waterdeep:
"...their total population exceeds that of Waterdeep by a factor of 2 (in summer months) to 10 (in winter months.)"
So 122,000x10 and we get that over a million number again just like the population number given in the Campaign Guide. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2010 : 12:31:46
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But there is still the problem that most of these people are probably independents or foreigners travelling to the safety of the city during the winter months, not permanent citizens. Hence the dramatical increase. These are beings found in the city and surroundings, not its citizen number.
How many of them have any loyalty to Waterdeep and would be willing to join an army? How many of them would just leave again when spring came to continue with the first caravan/ ship to the south or head in to the interior again? In reality hiring these would be worse than mercenaries. Even among the permanent citizens of the holdings and farms there would be a limited interest to take up a living as a guard instead of as a farmer/herder. And for the city itself it is preferable to have the local populace producing as much as possible. A couple of hundred each year? OK, but several thousand tied up as a permanent army? There is a reason why most medieval armies consisted of a small professional force, mercenaries and levies only being recruited for a short period of time when needed. Especially when there is still free land to be taken and no overpopulation to give a ready supply of manpower whilst still managing the permanent productive activity. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2010 : 17:44:08
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Exactly, Jorkens. You have put the situation perfectly.
Riverwind, I'm curious; why exactly do you think size of population has a direct correlation to size of an army, in this case?
love,
THO |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 09:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Exactly, Jorkens. You have put the situation perfectly.
Riverwind, I'm curious; why exactly do you think size of population has a direct correlation to size of an army, in this case?
love,
THO
Not Riverwind, but one of my arguments in this discussion was that the maximum potential of Waterdeep's forces was limited, among other things, by the available population. There would be no direct correlation, but in any event, there would be a maximum percentage of available population that could be "drafted" without causing economic breakdown (this is in the abstract, of course, without taking into account the factors Jorkens already mentioned).
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Right, the city population is 122,000. This is from COS talking about the area right around Waterdeep:
"...their total population exceeds that of Waterdeep by a factor of 2 (in summer months) to 10 (in winter months.)"
Oooookaaay... Canon is canon, apparently, but canon has not always made sense before. And this certainly does not make sense (to me). I don't have access to the third edition material, but exactly how was the "area around Waterdeep" defined? I'd think it would be the bowl defined by the Sword Mountains, Rassalantar as the northernmost point, and Zundbridge as the southernmost point. This is a really small area for such a big population?
I don't have access to my Interative Atlas here, but since it's around 45 miles to Rassalanter, and 25 miles to Zundbrige, for simpliticty's sake, I'll assume a circular area 35 miles in radius. That's around 4,000 square miles. Excluding Waterdeep's population, that would make population density around 220 persons per square mile. That's pretty high for what I assume to be an essentially agrarian society (no major population centers within that radius). As for feeding them, I can handle the idea of imports from the Dessarin valley, in particular from Goldenfields, but if they're not all working the fields (can't be, not enough land), then what do they do? Surf the interweave all day?
Unless, of course, the area is defined as being far wider, and spreading (far) into the Delimbiyr and Dessarin valleys, in which case that area is NOT under Waterdeep's control (Daggerford, Secomber, and Goldenfields certainly are not), and cannot be relied upon to provide troops.
I'm also a bit weirded out about Waterdeep's population actually growing in winter. I always had the impression that those who could (or who could afford it) headed south to pass the winter. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 12:09:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I'm also a bit weirded out about Waterdeep's population actually growing in winter. I always had the impression that those who could (or who could afford it) headed south to pass the winter.
My take on this would be that many people from the outlying areas and the wilderness kept within the city walls during the winter season. No matter how much Waterdeep wanted to patrol, the season would give predators of all sorts the advantage both from snow (hindering horses) and darkness (hindering missiles). Hunger would drive leucrotta, bugbears and trolls in from the wilderness, the organized humanoids would go after the larders and more or less winter bound farmers and animals.
I would guess that many herders and farmers actual kept a semi-nomadic existence, where they returned to their lands in the spring and repaired their dwellings. Some areas would have armed hill forts and such, but the sheer danger of the North would make many people seek the safety of the city.
There are also many ship captains, fishers and whalers that would spend the winter months within the city. The hunters, loggers and miners would come in from the wilderness and quite a few traders, drovers and mercenaries would stay, preparing for the first southbound caravans. With the travel times and distances in question it would not be practical for the export from the city to start with the returning caravans from the south. Put together this would account for quite a large group. Hundreds of ships of various sizes all with their crew landlocked, the miners and loggers, the wandering prospectors and hunters. The number of people needed for caravans of the size needed for safe travel (drovers, wranglers, guards, drivers, smiths, carpenters, various other craftsmen ), wandering merchants, prostitutes, gamblers, tinkers and craftsmen spending their summers in the mining and logging camps or with the caravans and soldiers. Mercenaries, adventurers and foreign traders preferring to sell during the more crowded and sparse winter months. Entertainers and thieves praying on the bored mass gathered within the city walls. These would be thousands. The more I think of it it seems like this would be the most interesting time for adventuring within the city.
All that being said, I have wondered a bit at these numbers myself, I would think that a doubling of beings during the more busy times would be more logical. It would be interesting to see Ed or the Hooded one elaborate a bit on this. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 12:25:30
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The population of the city decreases during the winter, while the population of the countryside increases during the winter. This makes sense to me. In the summer people move to the city to sell their goods and are on the road. In the winter people move back home (ie the countryside) when travel becomes difficult.
Eventhough the countryside is independant of Waterdeep, Waterdeep still would be able to pull from that population for the army if they wanted to. In fact, they might have to just to help control such a large population at their doorstep. In the winter, food shortages could lead to political problems and the army might be needed to put down any growing threats.
As far as loyalty goes, I would think that the people just outside of Waterdeep are pretty loyal to Waterdeep and understand that Waterdeep is the most important factor in their region's success. Also you would be getting recruits at a very young age, 14 or 15, where the army could really instill loyalty.
Also, with such a large popuation, pulling 1,2,3% of that would not be a huge army, it would just be much larger than the present one. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 18:10:09
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Well, actually: no.
If you read the published lore, you'll find much of the population that floods into Waterdeep during the summer months winters much further south, either because they have the wealth to go somewhere warmer (the nobles) or because they are traders from more southerly lands (the Tashalar in particular) who spend the winter making the wares they sell each summer . . . or just because winter life is easier the farther south one goes (food more plentiful, no need to chop as much firewood to keep from freezing, fewer desperate hungry monsters hunting the snows).
That same snowbound condition in winter (howling storms, ice and deep snow everywhere, roads impassable, most mounts and methods of carrying large cargoes (wagons) inoperable) keeps Waterdeep or anyone from easily calling on anyone in the distant countryside, or convincing them to go anywhere or do anything (unless Waterdeep promises and swiftly provides food and warmth in return for such service).
You seem to think of Waterdeep as akin to real-world New York, with New Jersey to call on. There IS no "large population at their doorstep" for Waterdeep: there's a small, scattered, hunkering-down-in-winter one. And if monsters, raiding brigands, or the proverbial orc horde is on the loose, such populations will flock to wherever they can get shelter. That will be Waterdeep for a few families of crofters, but the large numbers you're envisioning (Secomber, Silverymoon) will be defending their own, not abandoning all they own and hold dear to go help fight for Waterdeep.
You've got to stop seeing the Realms as having modern real-world easy transportation and communications. Throughout this thread, you've been taking the sort of tactical overview of the Waterdeep region that, say, a real-world military general might. However, except for a few of the Lords of Waterdeep and a handful of Palace courtiers, that's not the way Waterdhavians or the neighbours see things. Guildmasters, most Lords, and everyone else tend to have much narrower, focused-on-themselves-or-their-field-of-trade/profession viewpoints...so convincing them to do what you want them to do is going to be difficult. Remember, Waterdeep isn't a military tyranny, but does have a history of being so - - which means folk will be watching for any attempt on Waterdeep's part to militarily coerce them into anything.
Myself, I'd think Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Silverymoon, Secomber, Everlund, and the dwarf holds in particular would all be very alarmed if Waterdeep ever started recruiting large numbers of people "from the countryside" for any sort of military purpose, unless all olf these places had already agreed on such a tactic in the face of, say, an orc horde. You say "you would think" people outside Waterdeep "are pretty loyal" to Waterdeep. Not so, when it comes to risking their lives in military service. They certainly see Waterdeep's usefulness as a market and protection for them, but they also have daily resentments at all the little things attendant on Waterdeep wielding its powers (patrols giving them orders, etc.). Self-interest remains the most powerful motivator, in the Realms as in the real world. I think your recruiters, if they expected crofters in the countryside to come flocking to Waterdeep's army ranks, would get an unpleasant surprise. You blithely speak of getting youngsters as recruits that the army could instil loyalty in, but ignore the fact that restless youth want to see the world, not "join the devil they know." And just who is going to do that instilling of loyalty? Waterdeep doesn't have a "boot camp" set up or standing infrastructure; its militia training is very different, and concentrates on able-bodied adults; it's supposed to be the population defending itself, not youngsters fighting while everyone else hides or flees.
It's wrong to think that everyone from the countryside rushes into Waterdeep every summer, and goes back to freeze in the wilderness every winter. Yet the published lore, from the first (don't forget to read KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD), makes it clear that the huge summer increase in population is almost entirely traders from afar, coming to trade and departing again in winter. There IS no huge country population around the city that could account for that huge summer increase.
Does this make more sense? I'm not adding or inventing anything here, I'm just restating what's in the published Realms canon.
love to all,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 18:38:04
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THO,
When you talk about people from Waterdeep spending the winter down south, you're talking about a fraction of the population. The large majority of people are going to be lower and working class. In the summer I'm sure they go to Waterdeep or other major population centers to seek empolyment or to sell their goods. As business dies with the winter, they return to their homes in the countryside.
You say there's "no large population at their doorstep," but there is according to the 3E material. Also, I understand Waterdeep isn't a military tyranny. But recruiting 2% of the countryside (20,000 troops) would not even be noticed in a population so large. In fact, it could have a positive effect on the locals by taking away some of the unemployment competition for jobs. 2% is a fraction of the population, I doubt anyone would see this as some huge military build up. If we were talking about 10-20% then sure.
If Waterdeep doesn't have some form of "bootcamp" then how do they train the militia? Do these people sign up forever and live forever? If the army was 1,200 or 20,000 there still would be a need to train new recruits all the time. Also you talk about adults, 14 and 15 year olds would be young adults and as people get closer to middle age they would be of less use to the army.
1,200 troops is not large enough for a population that size, and the popualtion would be a huge threat to the state. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 19:33:58
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We are talking about 2% of the total population. That would be 10 to 15% of the males in their prime? That would be noticed.
Again, a large amount of the people in that number are non-natives that will leave the land and have little loyalty.
And who wants this army and who will pay for it?
At the moment there is no real need, no grouping that actually wants it and no goal to use it against that would be acceptable for the inhabitants. The price of recruiting and training an army from scratch would be enormous, especially when there is little short term gain to be had. Taxes, taxes, taxes. And strained relations with all other groupings along the Sword Coast, and for what? Waterdeep could build an army, but several political factors would have to change.
This is going in circles; I think it would be best if we just agreed to disagree on this. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 20:47:44
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I agree. Riverwind, you're still failing to see things except through the eyes of a real-world modern American. There's little point to continuing to discuss Waterdeep's army if you can't grasp the points that are being made or the canon lore that's being pointed out to you.
You post: "If Waterdeep doesn't have some form of "bootcamp" then how do they train the militia? Do these people sign up forever and live forever? If the army was 1,200 or 20,000 there still would be a need to train new recruits all the time. Also you talk about adults, 14 and 15 year olds would be young adults and as people get closer to middle age they would be of less use to the army."
That's how the United States does things, today. It's NOT how, for example, feudal England raised and trained their militia. Adult males assembled in the village green, usually weekly, for archery. Not for fun, but to be ready with their longbows when called upon to fight. They did NOT travel to a camp and live in it, drilling and training away from their families and day jobs. Neither do Waterdhavians.
Waterdhavians don't "sign up" for militia. They get paid daily (hot meal, hot broth, two coppers) if they show up for training and stay to the end of training. There's no draft, no dogtags, no encampments, no military police; none of that. Professional modern armies (and guerillas in third-world countries) use youngsters to fight; in the Realms, where apprentices are needed for the guild work and almost everyone young is needed to work the family fields (so everyone EATS; it's NOT optional) or in the family shop, the young are being raised and trained to take over the family business, not sent off to war. They fight (or run) when war comes to them. That's why mercenaries exist; because only those youths and older persons who've "left home to find their fortune" are footloose enough to CHOOSE to fight or adventure. Everyone else is tied to the land or to trade (and, remember, we're talking about one of the largest and busiest trade centers in the Realms here).
You post: "In fact, it could have a positive effect on the locals by taking away some of the unemployment competition for jobs."
Again, stop thinking in real-world American terms. This isn't modern New York; the word and the very concept of "unemployment" is unknown. Read your lore. Waterdeep has permanent hiring fairs (Virgins' Square, etc.) for guards, loaders/unloaders/casual day labourers, and a guild system. Beggars are policed by the Watch to make sure gangs don't develop, but it's understood that there's a large "floating homeless" population in warm weather. These people go south every fall to avoid freezing to death. In other words, in this respect, Waterdeep is a lot more like New Amsterdam (old New York) than modern New York.
You post: "When you talk about people from Waterdeep spending the winter down south, you're talking about a fraction of the population."
No, I'm not. As I've already clearly stated, I'm talking about the huge majority of the city's population, the merchants and craftworkers from elsewhere, who come to Waterdeep every summer to make their coins, and who "go back home" in the countryside of the Tashalar, and Amn, and Tethyr, and Tharsult, and many other places. Who have NO loyalty to Waterdeep as "a home to fight for" and who would relocate their summer trading without hesitation if, say, word reached them that there was a plague in Waterdeep. Or any sort of war.
You post: "1,200 troops is not large enough for a population that size, and the popualtion would be a huge threat to the state."
Again, stop thinking like a modern general, or some sort of tyrant fearful of losing control over the masses.
The population isn't a huge threat to the state, the population IS the state.
Yes, there's an elaborate network of Lords and their spies, the Guard, the Watch, the guilds, the Watchful Order wizards and the Lord Mage of Waterdeep and his lady, who enforce daily laws and order, enough for the merchants to trust the tradng environment and keep coming. But yes, if the entire population, or even localized masses of it, ever rose up, there would be strife (as shown in CITY OF SPLENDORS and many other novels describing Waterdeep) that those in authority would have great difficulty controlling. Ed designed it that way for better fictional "derring-do" opportunities for Mirt, back in his earliest stories, and more adventuring opportunities (as a published game setting; it's supposed to be a place where roleplayers can have their characters have lots of fun adventures).
The "troops" (not a Realmsian word, either) are indeed too small to keep a "police state" functioning, but as I've told you several times now, that's not what Waterdeep is.
Recast Waterdeep however you'd like it to be in your own campaign, but arguing that its armies or anything else "should" change because designers got it "wrong" just reveals your own thinking and the gaps between your assumptions or definitions or views and the published lore.
As Hoondatha posted, this thread would work far better if you took the viewpoint that "I'd like to bulk up Waterdeep's army, how do you all think it might look, why, and what else would change in the city or have to be changed, to fit with a larger army?" rather than continuing to argue that the Realms doesn't match this real-world example or that real-world example. Particularly when you ignore the points others make, or twist them into something you can find fault with.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but every time I provide lore information you ignore what doesn't suit you and term the rest of it wrong. That's not a good way to proceed in life. Unless, I suppose, you do enjoy overwhelming military superiority over everyone you deal with. 
You seem to have a hard time grasping the political balance of power, and why there'd be pushback if Waterdeep started arming. Your latest posts assume perfect communications and oversight, so Waterdhavians, the traders who come to it annually, and other rival cities would all "know" it was only 2 percent of the population, and trust that figure. To use a real-world example, consider the political anger Mayor Guliani faced (pre-9/11) when bulking up the police force and clearing the homeless out of the city. Now think about what anger there might be if New York announced it was going to recruit its own army. Now consider the effects if Waterdeep, a light-military popular trade center whose popularity is based on that very light rule, announced the same thing. And it would have to be an announcement, because Waterdeep lacks the infrastructure to have a large standing army (barracks, stables, training grounds, all of that), space in which to build them without it getting noticed, and so on.
Riverwind, it's time to "think Realms" and not "this Realms stuff doesn't make sense to me, because of X and Y in the real world." This is the first and key thing that Ed always tells designers and fiction writers preparing to work in the Realms: set aside real-world modern thinking, and Hollywood ideas of what the past was like, too, and consider how folk in the Realms think and act, and why.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 02 May 2010 20:50:27 |
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PowerPlayer
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 22:52:21
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| Hey there guys. In my group we're running an overly powered party in 3ed. I'm a member of the high nobility in waterdeep, and command an army of 6.000 men of 5th levels. And here the insane question: Would it be possible to invade the city with my 6.000 man army during the night, and hold it? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 23:08:01
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Invade it? Yes, probably. Depending, of course, on how sneaky you are in approaching the city. A force that large would almost certainly be detected long before it reached the walls, and scouts and envoys would be sent out to see what it was up to. But if you were careful, then probably.
Hold it? No chance in hell. Khelben and Laeral could probably rout your entire army by themselves, and that's not touching all of the other things Waterdeep can throw into the mix. Check the beginning of City of Splendors for an idea of what happens when a full-scale attack hits the city. Wizards, priests, hundreds of random adventurers, giant golems, not to mention the Guard, Watch, and the reserve we've been talking about. Individually, some of them could take your entire army, together, it wouldn't be in much doubt. The city would be a wreck after the fighting, but your guys would be dead.
The trouble is that street fighting, which is what any attempt to conquer the city would come to, has an insatiable appetite for bodies. Six thousand people would disappear into Waterdeep's streets and alley with barely a hiccup, where they would then be cut off from mutual support and facing attack from all sides. At that point, their higher level doesn't matter all that much, especially when all the city's magic users (not to mention disguised dragons) start playing hide-and-seek. See the sieges of Stalingrad and Berlin in WWII for two examples of the utter nightmare street fighting can turn into. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 02 May 2010 23:09:03 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2010 : 23:50:45
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What dragons... I've never read about dragons in disguis. What is this you are talking about?
Am i totally out of the loop? |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 02 May 2010 23:51:32 |
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Waterdeep's army
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