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Joseph Silver
Acolyte

USA
0 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  01:21:13  Show Profile  Visit Joseph Silver's Homepage Send Joseph Silver a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
First post!

I've been lurking for a few days here and from what I've observed, many of you here hate 4E, especially the 4E Realms. The pros and cons of 4E have been discussed so thoroughly on Gleemax that most regulars just let out an exasperated sigh whenever someone makes a post about it.

In the end, it all comes down to a matter of opinion. I really like 4E, but I understand that it isn't for everyone. I don't try to convert people to 4E because in my experience, doing so usually results in a flame war.

Many of the anti-4E posts here complain about how 4E is too simplified, that the scope of the 4E Realms has been drastically reduced, that 4E caters to the video game crowd. There is usually the hint that those who like 4E are inferior to those who hate it.

From my point of view, these are 4E's strengths, not its weaknesses. Simplicity is beauty. The 3E Realms was too fleshed out. Oh, and video games are awesome (I would never have played D&D if not for the Infinity Engine games).

My current group enjoys playing a game that we don't have to do too much research on. I found that many Realms players in previous editions expected that the DM stuck to canon. I felt that I, as a DM, was expected to keep up with the ever-growing lore so I could offer a "realistic" (within the context of a fantasy RPG) portrayal of the Realms.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Your players may or may not expect you to know everything about the Realms. But my players, and my fellow players when I was a player, did.

Playing in the Realms felt like I had to do tons of research just to get my roleplaying "right". When I tried to trade spells with a fellow wizard, the others looked at me like I was crazy because I was willing to give up my hard-earned magic to a stranger; apparently, in the novels, wizard spells are supposed to be jealously guarded by their owners. I, whose only experience with the Realms was through the Infinity Engine games and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, had no way of knowing this.

Having to do a ton of research to get my roleplaying right made D&D a chore. I hated having my roleplaying constantly corrected by Realms buffs because I was doing it completely wrong.

So 4E comes and the Realms are nuked from orbit, like someone hit the reset button. The timeline fast fowards a century later, and now everyone is on equal ground, lore-wise, i.e. I don't have to go through an entire library of fluff to play "properly". By throwing most of the fluff out the window, the 4E Realms lets me make my own fluff to fill in the blanks.

In the end, I just wanted to play D&D. I don't see roleplaying as a high art that needs to be perfected; I just want to play! The 4E Realms lets me do just that.

It may not be for everyone, but it's just right for me. I don't see anything wrong with preferring the 3.5 Realms, and I hope you won't see anything wrong with my preference for the 4E version.

And with that, I end my very long first post.


Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.

All hail Cyric!

Edited by - The Sage on 02 Feb 2009 01:31:15

ErskineF
Learned Scribe

USA
326 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  02:41:21  Show Profile  Visit ErskineF's Homepage Send ErskineF a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Silver

The 3E Realms was too fleshed out.


I see your point, and for your sake I hope they never write another word about the 4e Realms.

Seriously, though, I think those who had a problem with the amount of detailed material there was on the Realms were not Realms fans, nor did they lack for alternatives to the Realms. Using Nerf's apt analogy, just as New Coke was for people who didn't like Coke, apparently FR1470 is for people who didn't like the Forgotten Realms.

--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3525 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  03:32:07  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Glad 4e is working for you and others. It will be interesting to see how 5e or 6 e or whatever incarnation jumps forward and renders the next ten or whatever years moot though

As far as FR being all fleshed out, I think that's just wrong, I bet Ed Greenwood could talk for hours just outlining things that were yet to be fleshed out.
But as I said, glad it's working for you.

Welcome to Candlekeep.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 02 Feb 2009 03:33:20
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  03:33:43  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The funny thing is, reading the part about being corrected about aspects of the setting by Realms fans for 3.5 . . . I've been told that I didn't understand the Realms and how it worked by 4E fans that have basically quoted talking points from the designers to me. I think that the type of fan that is going to correct you and tell you that you are doing it wrong represents a certain segment of the roleplaying community, and won't change no matter how detailed or how undetailed a given setting is.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  03:52:38  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've posted here and at Gleemax (as well as some others here) about the reasons for and against 4th Edition and the New Realms (they are two separate entities, after all).

4th Edition, as a game system, is a good game system. It's helpful to new players and old. However, as my personal opinion, I do not like the system, just as I think the Storyteller and Rolemaster systems are good systems, but I do not prefer them.

In regards to the changes to the Realms, the disagreement I have is that there was no reason for the changes that they put forward, in the manner they put them forward. The Realms were never intended to be 'there is only the one way to play this' type of setting. A point that I think Ed and other authors and designers of the Realms have made abundantly clear through the many years the Realms have been published. If another player told you "That's not how wizards acts in the Realms!", that player is in the wrong, not you for choosing to play that way. If a DM says that to you, then it's a matter of discussion between you and the DM on how wizards view the world and their peers in the world.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4291 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  03:58:16  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, in some ways being simpler is quicker to learn. I Grant you that.
The comment about sticking to canon, less I have seen that as well even though Ed clearly indicated that it was a DMs game and well recoginised that the players change the world. There were always open space and not all the novels or source books filled up that space.

Oh some do not object to the 4th Edition rules much if at all, in fact some embrace them.

More of the problems comes from what occured to the Realms, the time advance and so many things changed. A Rip Van Wrinkle effect, picture yourself going away for the weekend and returning home to find over half the people dead, many buildings gone including churches (one of which was yours) and you might understand better why some fans of the Realms atr less then thrilled with what little 4th Edtion has offer as a replacement.

The two worlds are 100 years apart, start a conversation about playing FR D&D and speak of Drow in general you can talk cross Edition, however when you start talking about your Dragonborn character you have a disconnect in you become talking about two different places.

The 4th Edtion Realms will get their addons as well, how quick WotC might put them out is uncertain (No books planned, however from time to time there should be FR articles in the ezines) however any DM clearly will need to flesh out the Realms as the party grows in power (The blank space always provided and the Rule 0 concept).

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 02 Feb 2009 04:01:08
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1071 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  07:48:12  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
3rd edition too fleshed out?! I wouldn't have become interested in the Realms at all back when I was 12 if the setting hadn't had so much lore and detail. It really felt like diving into a whole world. It felt...wonderful.

There was a huge amount of stuff I had to read in order to "get" even a small part of Faerun, but that just made it more exciting.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy

Edited by - khorne on 02 Feb 2009 07:50:05
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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  08:34:26  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage  Click to see Sian's MSN Messenger address Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
to be fair you have to spilt the question in to ... those for and against 4e as such ... and those for and against 4e FR, its two vastly different questions with little in common short of their obivous link in edition.

4e as such i get the feeling that most people are indifferent towards, since it both got good and bad sides (simplification, which is for most part seen as a bad side, lack of classes, more streamlined combat, lack of oppotunities etc).

FR 4e have NOTHING to do with the previous FR, if they marketed the setting with another campaign name on it i'd figure that there would be much less people badmouthing it, it deleted and destroyed almost everything, and made practically all lore invalid, dressing it in simple ways of explaining which a 5 year old could make more interesting

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1278 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  14:44:15  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Silver

First post!

I've been lurking for a few days here and from what I've observed, many of you here hate 4E, especially the 4E Realms. The pros and cons of 4E have been discussed so thoroughly on Gleemax that most regulars just let out an exasperated sigh whenever someone makes a post about it.

In the end, it all comes down to a matter of opinion. I really like 4E, but I understand that it isn't for everyone. I don't try to convert people to 4E because in my experience, doing so usually results in a flame war.

Many of the anti-4E posts here complain about how 4E is too simplified, that the scope of the 4E Realms has been drastically reduced, that 4E caters to the video game crowd. There is usually the hint that those who like 4E are inferior to those who hate it.

From my point of view, these are 4E's strengths, not its weaknesses. Simplicity is beauty. The 3E Realms was too fleshed out. Oh, and video games are awesome (I would never have played D&D if not for the Infinity Engine games).

My current group enjoys playing a game that we don't have to do too much research on. I found that many Realms players in previous editions expected that the DM stuck to canon. I felt that I, as a DM, was expected to keep up with the ever-growing lore so I could offer a "realistic" (within the context of a fantasy RPG) portrayal of the Realms.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Your players may or may not expect you to know everything about the Realms. But my players, and my fellow players when I was a player, did.

Playing in the Realms felt like I had to do tons of research just to get my roleplaying "right". When I tried to trade spells with a fellow wizard, the others looked at me like I was crazy because I was willing to give up my hard-earned magic to a stranger; apparently, in the novels, wizard spells are supposed to be jealously guarded by their owners. I, whose only experience with the Realms was through the Infinity Engine games and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, had no way of knowing this.

Having to do a ton of research to get my roleplaying right made D&D a chore. I hated having my roleplaying constantly corrected by Realms buffs because I was doing it completely wrong.

So 4E comes and the Realms are nuked from orbit, like someone hit the reset button. The timeline fast fowards a century later, and now everyone is on equal ground, lore-wise, i.e. I don't have to go through an entire library of fluff to play "properly". By throwing most of the fluff out the window, the 4E Realms lets me make my own fluff to fill in the blanks.

In the end, I just wanted to play D&D. I don't see roleplaying as a high art that needs to be perfected; I just want to play! The 4E Realms lets me do just that.

It may not be for everyone, but it's just right for me. I don't see anything wrong with preferring the 3.5 Realms, and I hope you won't see anything wrong with my preference for the 4E version.

And with that, I end my very long first post.


Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.




So what makes this particular post DIFFERENT from what might have been said on WOTC boards?

Basically it can be summed up that the realms had too much information so you could not enjoy them. Ok then play something else.
Play in the generic world.

If the realms are too difficult, find something easier, or make your own.

The difference between REAL realms and $e realms, is like someone going to Metallica and saying the following:

Mr Bean counter: You know our research indicates that people like RAP rather than your outdated music.. they just don't get the references to history you use, the references to mythology, and the music is to complex. They cannot DANCE to your music, metallica guys, and well people want to DANCE. So go ahead and change it for them. Start Rapping that way more people will follow you.

Metallica: Ummm but mr. Bean counter many people like our music the way it is.

Mr. Beancounter: Yes but we can afford to alienate your old fans because the new fans like things simpler and will buy your products in droves.

So Metallica simplifies to appeal to the lowest common denominator, much like the $e realms did.




A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...

Edited by - Mournblade on 02 Feb 2009 14:46:12
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
201 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  14:48:44  Show Profile  Visit Wrigs13's Homepage Send Wrigs13 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose the real question is, "How can there be to much information?" Surely as an argument that is truely ridiculous. Am I missing something? To much information? How?

Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  15:35:18  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Joseph,

Great first post by the way. As regards the latest version of the rules, these things happen and settings can adapt to them. However, the thing that upsets most of us is that changing the setting to fit the new rules is one thing but changing the setting out of barely all recognition is entirely another.

OK, things evolve/change and the dependent things adapt to those changes, but what was done to the Realms just doesn't make sense to us. Many of us here think that there were better ways of doing it.

quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Silver

Having to do a ton of research to get my roleplaying right made D&D a chore. I hated having my roleplaying constantly corrected by Realms buffs because I was doing it completely wrong.


A good game takes the setting as a base and moves of in its own direction. For me, the depth of the old Realms setting allowed new players to add in new elements. Ultimately, the DM decided what can and can not happen.

There is also the fact that simplified beginnings can become more complicated as time goes on. For example, in 3rd Ed, the PHB listed about 40 or so feats. By the end of the edition there were over a 1,000 feats. Although some of these were specific to certain settings, many were not.

A tidying up of the rules is always welcome. And basically, D&D is just throw a dice, take the result and work out the odds of the action being a success. As a DM, I've taken a setting and DM-ed using my own rules. What some, rather horribly I might add, term 'crunch' is just a dice roll and adding/subtracting variables. And PC games do all that in the background.

Rules Lawyers and Lore Buffs can ruin a game but it just depends on the attitude of those particular people. Sometimes, if you discover you're doing something different to the rules or the established lore then there are two ways of looking at it. You can gripe and correct past actions, or you can look at it as an evolution and a chance for a new storyline. A good DM and good players take a problem and turn it into a fun adventure.

When the sorcerer class came along, I couldn't see how it would fit into Menzoberranzan (which was the setting I mainly DM-ed in). After some thought, I and a fellow DM came up with the Dragon Blood Society (DBS) - a secret organisation that protected sorcerers and encouraged their studies. This organisation was sheltered by Melee Magthere, the warriors school. A few great games were had whereby rogue sorcerers were either hunted down by the wizards, or found shelter with the DBS.

The barbarian class were easier to work with. They were seen as warriors who were imbued with Lolth's chaotic nature. In both cases, the new classes were seen to have been evolutions of the Time of Troubles. (For example, we kept Dyrr as a wizard and not a sorcerer. The game had now become our setting.)

The basic point of all this is that the "Realms buffs" were wrong to constantly correct you on what took place in your game. The setting is the foundation and you take your game where you want it to go. (Or more often it takes you where it wants you to go.)

However, for many of us there was a lot of fun to be had discussing our various approaches. And, for many of us, there was pleasure to be had in the depth and complexity of the FR setting. The current changes feel like someone has taken a book like The Lord of the Rings out of our hands and given us Eragon. The basic story is the same - good guy saves world from horrible Dark Lord - but the richness of background is gone. It's like having a rainbow composed of only red, green and blue. It's an imitation of what has gone before.

The main problem, of course, is that the new edition change means 'adapt or die'. The older version is no longer supported and in the end all that has gone before is no longer relevant. And something that gave us a lot of fun is now dead. The setting hasn't evolved into something new, it's been changed. And there is a difference. An evolution builds on what went before. A change ruptures the connection to the past.

I know people will say just use the rule-set you want but the sense of ongoing evolution that new releases brings no longer happens.

Anyway, I've gone on long enough.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  16:00:32  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Silver
It may not be for everyone, but it's just right for me. I don't see anything wrong with preferring the 3.5 Realms, and I hope you won't see anything wrong with my preference for the 4E version.



I honestly could not care less. I don't think most people here care either.

A matter of opinion? Well of course--that's not exactly a startling revelation. Do you think no one here ever considered that until you mentioned it?

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think that the type of fan that is going to correct you and tell you that you are doing it wrong represents a certain segment of the roleplaying community, and won't change no matter how detailed or how undetailed a given setting is.



I agree.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Feb 2009 16:06:09
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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2009 :  19:07:58  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoy both systems personally

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023
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Faraer
Great Reader

3296 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  04:04:34  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A matter of opinion would be multiple evaluations of the same situation. This isn't about opinion, it's about purposes: exploring a world or using it as a quick starter for your own worldbuilding. People wanting different things and arguing for what they want are talking at cross-purposes. It's also about temperament: some people like it when there's lots more they could learn about something, others feel uncomfortable.
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I wouldn't have become interested in the Realms at all back when I was 12 if the setting hadn't had so much lore and detail.
If it hadn't, TSR wouldn't have been interested in the first place and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  16:39:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, I'd like to say welcome to the boards.

Second, Gleemax no longer exists, and hasn't in awhile - just one of the many recent failures on their part (although I forgive them that one - I place most of the blame on one very disturbed employee).

Third, I'd agree with you that the 'fervor' of the so-called "edition wars" has died down quite a bit, and is usually only brought back up anywhere when someone makes a post like this (which insights the 'other side' to respond). Your tone is raather accuastory - Although all of the scribes here have their own opinions of the 4e material, most of us try to be as neutral as possible in our responses to questions, which is the 'meat & potatoes' of what this site is about.

Discussion threads are another matter entirely, and if you do not wish to read people's opinions, then just avoid those - the mods are very good here at keeping discussion out of the 'lore-based' threads. A person can dislike 4e and still give a 4e player/DM valuable advice about the Realms - edition-be-damned.

quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF

quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Silver

The 3E Realms was too fleshed out.


I see your point, and for your sake I hope they never write another word about the 4e Realms.
While that about sums up my thoughts exactly (Great Response! ), I found this particular sentence to be especially 'jarring' -

quote:
Originally posted by Joseph Silver

My current group enjoys playing a game that we don't have to do too much research on.
Isn't that the Core setting?

Despite my recent interest in certain portions of 4e lore and the 4e rules, I - and obviously many other old-school fans - just can't wrap our minds around this.

I've yet to find the guy with the club standing behind me at my table, waiting to thwack me when I get stuff wrong.

And btw, I ran FR for over ten years being completely clueless - I 'fudged' most everything - and only started becoming adicted to the lore after I stopped running it (not by any choice of my own, mind you - I moved away from my group).

To be honest, I don't think knowing all that I know now - which is probably still only about 10% of what is out there - that I would be a "better DM" for it. I think my games will be just as much fun as they always were, and if canon lore got in my way, I'd just ignore it.

The Realms you bought and paid for are YOURS, not WotC or anybody's else's - they have their Own copy and their own Campaign (including the 'official' one covered in novels).

You can't get anything 'wrong' in your game because it is your game - the Setting books are just a list of suggestions - not laws that must be adherred to upon pain of death. Even the rules themselves should be taken that way - Lord knows just about everyone I've ever gamed with have their own set of 'Houserules'.

If Housrules are acceptable, then why isn't 'House canon'?

You were always able to do whatever you wanted to the Realms - its just that now WotC has managed to convince everyone that it is to their benefit if they (the company) works less-hard at their jobs.

Maybe the next time I do a roof for someone, I'll only lay down the tar-paper and not the shingles. Perhaps I can convince the customer that by leaving off the shingles, they can now imagine whatever roof color they want.

Boy... I wish I could get away with a con like that...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2009 17:02:34
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3074 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  16:47:10  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe the next time I do a roof for someone, I'll only lay down the tar-paper and not the shingles. Perhaps I can convince the customer that by leaving off the shingles, they can now imagine whatever roof color they want.

Boy... I wish I could get away with a con like that...


I think I hired you once... (j/k!)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3525 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  16:56:27  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
........
Maybe the next time I do a roof for someone, I'll only lay down the tar-paper and not the shingles. Perhaps I can convince the customer that by leaving off the shingles, they can now imagine whatever roof color they want.

Boy... I wish I could get away with a con like that...



Ebberoofing?

P.S. please see this for the harmless jab it is, not a well planned and crafted dig at another setting. Thank You!


A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  17:08:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At the risk of sounding down-right belligerant, Eberron is a MASTERPIECE compared to 4e FR.

In fact, I've often toyed with the notion of running it - not too many worlds out there have EVERY continent detailed.

I only wish FR had gotten that kind of coverage.

I'd tone-down the 'Steam-punkesque' feel of the place though, even though I go for that sort of thing. Just about everyone I've ever run a game for is more into a traditional fantasy world, which greatly limits what worlds I can DM. <sigh>

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2009 17:10:02
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
618 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  17:14:45  Show Profile  Visit Uzzy's Homepage Send Uzzy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I agree. The 3rd Edition Realms was too fleshed out. I mean, I was trying to set my FR game in Cormyr, post Death of the Dragon, and just ran into constant streams of information about it. I mean that sourcebook on 3rd Edition Cormyr was far too detailed for my tastes. 50 pages on each individual city, full with two page maps.. just why?!

So I moved onto Sembia! But again, another sourcebook, far too detailed. This seems to be pretty common, as I found it the same with the Western Heartlands, Dalelands, The Moonsea, Impultir and surrounding lands, the Lands of Intrigue etc. All having large sourcebooks, with every street in every town fleshed out, along with the NPC's.

And don't even get me started on the organisations! That book on how the Realms works wasn't what I wanted at all. Too much detail on the various groups, like the Harpers, Zhents and all the other smaller groups. Did anyone really need to know how trade worked in the Realms, what caravans went across the wilderness, the mercenary companies of the Realms etc?

Honestly, all those Realms books really put me off. I'd never have wanted books like that! Nuking the setting, killing off much of what made it special then printing just two books and an adventure is much better.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  17:29:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Congrats, Uzzy, you just broke my sarcasm detector!

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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe

Germany
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Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  17:48:39  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage  Send Ayunken-vanzan an AOL message  Send Ayunken-vanzan an ICQ Message  Click to see Ayunken-vanzan's MSN Messenger address Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. Now you mention Sembia, it was James Jacobs on the Paizo boards a few weeks ago who said that back in the old days Sembia was considered a part of the Realms which should never receive any development or coverage by source books.

Edit: Found the post thanks to Google's site search:

Link.

Edit2: Hm, "a few weeks ago ..."

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FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads

Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 03 Feb 2009 18:02:12
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  17:55:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, it was all that info on Katashaka, Anchorome, and Osse that turned me off to pre-4e FR.

Seriously, they typed-out the entire name of the place in the one or two places all of those CONTINENTS were mentioned - couldn't they have just given us abbreviations?

And don't even get me started on the 1e, 2e, and 3e sourcebooks on Turmish.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan

Indeed. Now you mention Sembia, it was James Jacobs on the Paizo boards a few weeks ago who said that back in the old days Sembia was considered a part of the Realms which should never receive any development or coverage by source books.

LOL -

An 'old promise' that they can now intend to keep.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2009 17:56:55
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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USA
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Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  18:37:40  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You all keep forgetting about the giant sourcebook on Sossal!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  19:31:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't forget -I use it as a doorstop - it was just too HUGE and full of useless facts about a campaign to ever be of any use to me.

Just give me a list of monster encounters and I'm good.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2009 15:37:47
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Nerfed2Hell
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USA
387 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  21:42:35  Show Profile  Visit Nerfed2Hell's Homepage Send Nerfed2Hell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
mindless post.

Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30204 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2009 :  21:58:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alright folks, we're starting to go a bit overboard with the sarcasm and silliness. We should prolly rein it in just a touch.

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