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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Joseph Silver Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 01:21:13
First post!

I've been lurking for a few days here and from what I've observed, many of you here hate 4E, especially the 4E Realms. The pros and cons of 4E have been discussed so thoroughly on Gleemax that most regulars just let out an exasperated sigh whenever someone makes a post about it.

In the end, it all comes down to a matter of opinion. I really like 4E, but I understand that it isn't for everyone. I don't try to convert people to 4E because in my experience, doing so usually results in a flame war.

Many of the anti-4E posts here complain about how 4E is too simplified, that the scope of the 4E Realms has been drastically reduced, that 4E caters to the video game crowd. There is usually the hint that those who like 4E are inferior to those who hate it.

From my point of view, these are 4E's strengths, not its weaknesses. Simplicity is beauty. The 3E Realms was too fleshed out. Oh, and video games are awesome (I would never have played D&D if not for the Infinity Engine games).

My current group enjoys playing a game that we don't have to do too much research on. I found that many Realms players in previous editions expected that the DM stuck to canon. I felt that I, as a DM, was expected to keep up with the ever-growing lore so I could offer a "realistic" (within the context of a fantasy RPG) portrayal of the Realms.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Your players may or may not expect you to know everything about the Realms. But my players, and my fellow players when I was a player, did.

Playing in the Realms felt like I had to do tons of research just to get my roleplaying "right". When I tried to trade spells with a fellow wizard, the others looked at me like I was crazy because I was willing to give up my hard-earned magic to a stranger; apparently, in the novels, wizard spells are supposed to be jealously guarded by their owners. I, whose only experience with the Realms was through the Infinity Engine games and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, had no way of knowing this.

Having to do a ton of research to get my roleplaying right made D&D a chore. I hated having my roleplaying constantly corrected by Realms buffs because I was doing it completely wrong.

So 4E comes and the Realms are nuked from orbit, like someone hit the reset button. The timeline fast fowards a century later, and now everyone is on equal ground, lore-wise, i.e. I don't have to go through an entire library of fluff to play "properly". By throwing most of the fluff out the window, the 4E Realms lets me make my own fluff to fill in the blanks.

In the end, I just wanted to play D&D. I don't see roleplaying as a high art that needs to be perfected; I just want to play! The 4E Realms lets me do just that.

It may not be for everyone, but it's just right for me. I don't see anything wrong with preferring the 3.5 Realms, and I hope you won't see anything wrong with my preference for the 4E version.

And with that, I end my very long first post.


Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
redsaber Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 16:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dragonborn of 3E didn't bother me... I've actually been tinkering with an idea for a race of draconic humanoids descended from dragons and humans. It's essentially the 4E dragonborn, but in smaller numbers, and with a backstory that at least starts in the Realms.

I can deal with a lot of things, so long as the presentation is right. The way the 4E dragonborn appeared is not acceptable, nor is their sharing a name with an apparently unrelated 3E race. I'm trying to make an acceptable version.



I totally agree. In a way, I also liked the idea of having them in smaller numbers. That would have been totally understandable. However, having them becoming so important as to have their own region... I can't quite agree with that... Specially since, like you said, the presentation and explanation weren't really consistent and logical with the world they were arriving in.

Good point.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 13:42:49
quote:
Originally posted by redsaber

As an example, if I ever see one of my players with a dragonborn character or a eladryn, I'll cut his tongue out.

Dragonborns, eladryns, the Feywild and returned Abeir are to Forgotten Realms what Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.


The dragonborn of 3E didn't bother me... I've actually been tinkering with an idea for a race of draconic humanoids descended from dragons and humans. It's essentially the 4E dragonborn, but in smaller numbers, and with a backstory that at least starts in the Realms.

I can deal with a lot of things, so long as the presentation is right. The way the 4E dragonborn appeared is not acceptable, nor is their sharing a name with an apparently unrelated 3E race. I'm trying to make an acceptable version.
George Krashos Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 12:47:39
I recall that when FRCS was in development and I found out that they were bringing surface drow to Cormanthor I pushed for them to at least come from an FR region that was known to house surface drow - the Forest of Mir. My suggestion went unheeded.

-- George Krashos
khorne Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 08:32:07
quote:
Originally posted by redsaber

[quote]
Dragonborns, eladryns, the Feywild and returned Abeir are to Forgotten Realms what Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.


Personally, I've always considered the hatred directed at Jar Jar Binks an extreme overreaction.

redsaber Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 06:03:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Once again, I would have to say this is not just a problem with WotC, but a sign of the times.

We accept things from 'higher ups' like mindless sheep, and they say "hey... they like this... lets feed them more.."



I totally agree with you. Maybe that's just because my generation (which maybe is also yours... the generation Y), just cares about the parts and not the whole.

Anyways, what I wanted to say is this: there's still some of us who keep fighting back.

As an example, if I ever see one of my players with a dragonborn character or a eladryn, I'll cut his tongue out.

Dragonborns, eladryns, the Feywild and returned Abeir are to Forgotten Realms what Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.

What I've always liked with the Realms is realizing how much I did not know much about it.

Now... it's another story.
Knight of the Gate Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 21:06:17
Which is hilarious, as Mearimydra(sp?)is, like... RIGHT THERE.
But, then, there's no House Do'Urden there, is there?
Ardashir Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 18:31:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On a much lighter note: What Drow were from Menzoberranzan?

If your talking about the Cormanthor ones, I was unaware of that fact (there are at least two cities right in the area that work better).




I think it was the Jaelre drow who came from Menzoberranzan, with their main rivals (Clan Auzkovyn) having apparently always been surface-dwelling nomads until they entered the Dales via a portal located beneath the Abbey of the Sword in Battledale.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 00:54:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

We accept things from 'higher ups' like mindless sheep...


I most certainly do not. Even with regards to the Realms setting, I've been skeptical of certain design decisions--heck, I just plain disliked some of them--years before 4E (and the 4E Realms setting) was even announced. That being said though, at the time, WotC did at least put out Realms products that I was willing to spend money on.
Markustay Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 03:42:53
Once again, I would have to say this is not just a problem with WotC, but a sign of the times.

We accept things from 'higher ups' like mindless sheep, and they say "hey... they like this... lets feed them more.."

As you've pointed out, its through our own inaction (and continuing purchases) that has brought us here, so we have no one to blame but ourselves.

On a much lighter note: What Drow were from Menzoberranzan?

If your talking about the Cormanthor ones, I was unaware of that fact (there are at least two cities right in the area that work better).

Either Way, I am glad I read neither of those series. I may, someday, when I get tired of re-reading all my existing stuff, but for now I have the GHotR to fill me in on what happened (and that I'll never use in my games).
Faraer Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 01:22:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Reading the Drow entry and how the "Cormanthor Drow will be a threat for years to come" just saddens me, since I know they were 'dismissed' in a couple of lines in the GhotR (during that final decade).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't agree with everything (the return of Shade and Myth Drannor, for example), and I'll pick-and-choose what I use, but at least we had a feeling of 'continuation'.
All three seem to be part of the same foreshortening phenomenon to me, in which so many things became easier, quicker, closer, simpler and more immediate. Rather than intricate Netherese history with subtle causes and effects, now it's in your face. Never mind the shining memory of Myth Drannor and the decades-long Retreat, we'll bring it back bodily, even though that's properly the matter for individual campaigns (not least Ed Greenwood's own!). Drow are cool, so we'll make them easy to get to without all that boring spelunking -- the level of thinking there was disclosed, I'm afraid, by the decision to bring in drow from Menzoberranzan, half a continent away, just because they'd featured in some popular books.

If we'd been less tolerant of such design choices in the first place, Wizards might not have thought they could get away with much worse last year.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 23:29:48
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

Well, we have managed to talk keep this thread going for five pages, so at least it has been a conversation starter. As long as the posts are interesting I don't see the problem of the missing OP.



Another good point.
ranger_of_the_unicorn_run Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 18:50:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


This time, its like we went to another planet.


Or your hometown nuked by meaningless magical catastrophe.
Markustay Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 17:54:12
Ah, okay... point taken. I myself have taken a big ol' eraser to the Realms and have changed them greatly.

Difference is, I don't try to force my world-veiw on anyone else.

And while I agree the quality of 3e products was below that of 2e, a lot of good still came-out of the early 3e stuff. I don't agree with everything (the return of Shade and Myth Drannor, for example), and I'll pick-and-choose what I use, but at least we had a feeling of 'continuation'. A lot of the same people, places, and things were there, and it felt like 'going home' to your hometown after years away.

This time, its like we went to another planet.
Jorkens Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 17:18:24
Well, a grudge and an eraser is a pretty good start when it comes to changing the world to fit your campaign. Much of my creativity through the last ten years have come from seeing what I don't want the setting to be and try to form it into something I like and can use.

It is strange, your summary on how you feel pretty much sounds like my reaction to the 3ed. In fact Lords of Darkness was the book that kept me away from buying Realms products for four years. There was nothing there that felt like the Realms I had been using and all the changes rubbed me the wrong way. And I mean all of them. I am glad it did, as it let me make a clean break from any thoughts of following the official setting.

And at least you get great music when stuck in the 70's England, so you see? Things always have a bright side.
Markustay Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 15:15:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials?
Well, the "evil mages and corrupt officials" bit isn't exactly a new thing for Waterdeep. We have read about this type of thing happening in the City of Splendors before. And I like the way Steven connected this development with the fallout of the Spellplague. As for the "slum" part... I didn't really see it as such. Rather, I got the impression that this was actually the result of the overall majesty and shine of the City of Splendors having been tarnished, just a little.




I got the impression it was more than just a little tarnished... And as I've said before, I really don't see a center of trade, blessed with a deep and clean harbor, allowing that harbor to become filthy and partially clogged. The Waterdeep of 1479 is not, to me, a logical extension of what the Waterdeep of 1374 was.

Exactly.

Crime seems much more evident, and the city gaurd are described as 'bullies'. Also, pay close attention to the background Steven describes - broken statues and non-working fountains, collapsed buildings where weeds and even trees have taken root and allowed to grow, garbage and rubble in the streets, twisted structures and mishapen landscapes... and Mistshore just 'takes the cake'. I know that little 'doozy' had nothing to do with Mr. Schend, but seriously - the city is named after it's unique and commerce-endearing harbor!

I live on the outskirts of NY City, and I can tell you that it was at its worst in the 70's. Graft and corruption were rife, garbage was piling up everywhere, and the unions (read: Mafia) were controlling just about everything. In fact, it sounded a lot like Waterdeep circa 1479.

Just one MAJOR difference - at NO point did 'we' allow the harbor to get choked with crap. The Harbor is our 'lifeline' and what made NYC great - even at it's worst the city's citizens realized this. About a month ago we had a commercial jetliner crash into the water - and it was lifted out two days later.

When a city's harbor is it's most important feature, and the one the rest of the city was built around, you do not let it get like that.

But aside from my feelings about Waterdeep, which to tell the truth I don't care about nearly as much as most of the rest of the Realms (it does seem more intersting to me now, sadly enough), it was the fact that I enjoyed Blackstaff so much that made this a disappointment.

The whole 1st novel revolved around Tsarra... and we learn her anti-climactic fate in a single sentence. That retro-actively ruined the first book for me (which I enjoyed immensely).

Also, I got the wrong idea about the novel - I was lead to believe that we'd get lots and lots of 'kewl flashbacks' throughout the novel, much like Blackstaff had. Had I known the novel was PURE 4e I probably wouldn't have picked it up.

But enough about novels - it isn't the story or even the author's fault: Its just a side-effect of the '4e condition' of the Realms.

I just can't identify AT ALL with this new world. It has gotten under my skin so badly that even small things - like the word 'cerulean' - sets off alarm bells in my head. I have tried to like it, but the best I can hope for at this point is being able to discuss the lore civilly.

I've been reading Lords of Darkness the past few days (I only got it recently), and there is just so many great things in that book that are now gone, some of which I can't even blame on 4e. Reading the Drow entry and how the "Cormanthor Drow will be a threat for years to come" just saddens me, since I know they were 'dismissed' in a couple of lines in the GhotR (during that final decade). So many truly great storylines were ended that way - "everyone died... NEXT!"

I think the only thing worse then 90% of the 4e lore was the truly disrespectful way the curent team obliterated material created by everyone that had gone before. They didn't even bother to 'wrap it up' - they just 'dismssed it'.

There was no 'transition period' - when I read the 4e stuff, I feel like that guy on Life on Mars (great show, BTW).

Creativity begins with an idea and a pencil, not a grudge and an eraser.
The Sage Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 14:36:12
I think the scribe in question has been lurking, as I've seen his user-name active infrequently in the "ACTIVE USERS" function page.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 14:32:25
The original poster signed up, made that post, and hasn't been back since the 5th -- unless they've been lurking without being logged in.
Jorkens Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 08:45:08
Well, we have managed to keep this thread going for five pages, so at least it has been a conversation starter. As long as the posts are interesting I don't see the problem of the missing OP. Still, I am curious as to if the original poster got the answers he was looking for or if he just gave up.





Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 00:37:51
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run

Oh, I'm not saying that I agree with what he said or the way he said it...



I know.

quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

But I also wondered what he was going to talk about. He apparently doesn't want to research or discuss the shared/published/Ed's Realms but instead 'make my own fluff to fill in the blanks'. So we could talk about his campaign, but what apart from that?



A good point.
Julian Grimm Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 19:55:21
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials?
Well, the "evil mages and corrupt officials" bit isn't exactly a new thing for Waterdeep. We have read about this type of thing happening in the City of Splendors before. And I like the way Steven connected this development with the fallout of the Spellplague. As for the "slum" part... I didn't really see it as such. Rather, I got the impression that this was actually the result of the overall majesty and shine of the City of Splendors having been tarnished, just a little.




That's not something that would bother me. Maybe because I gritted the cities up a bit in my games. Before I hit the reset button on my campaign Waterdeep had been seriously rocked by a Siege by a humanoid army. So seeing it in shambles, for me, isn't new territory. Besides, I wanted a city like EGG's Greyhawk for FR and Waterdeep was the lucky or unlucky contender.

That said, I haven't read the later novels from 3e and none of the 4e novels. The last ones I read was the Hunter's Blades and WotSQ. The prelude from the Orc King kinda turned me off reading any newer ones.

But, if someone likes the 4e stuff more power to them. I just don't think the last few events in the novels or Realms Sourcebooks fit what should have been the natural evolution of the setting.
Dkonen Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 19:48:43
I think it was the "nuked from orbit" to make "everyone on equal footing" comment that set off the confrontational. Honestly, when was the last time something getting nuked from orbit been a positive equalizer(except for may be the nukers)?

Personally, I've always found FR to be, from the start, a "make up your own fluff to fill in the blanks", maybe it's because I devour books like a starving sugarholic scarfs twinkies, but it seems to me there were huge areas left blank that were perfect for just that. The lore gave an excellent template to build off of and work with, complete with structures in place for extra support and flavor if you needed/wanted them.

As for the RSE comments... I've played all versions, and to be honest my only problem with RSEs was that they took the major events away from the players. All the major events were written, boxed and happen as a major theme that feels similar to a 1st level party being host to an epic NPC. No matter what, your players can be left feeling insignificant, at least without a good DM. I've been lucky that most of the DMs I've had run amazingly good campaigns. RSEs are really, IMHO nothing more than major plots, and major plots are what grab attention, after all, when was the last time any of us spent an entire campaign as goat herders... or babysitters...?

Not to say I think RSEs are great, by any means, in fact a past party used to crack jokes about the realms being constantly on the edge of "ULTIMATE DEVASTATION!" (gasp!), but you don't have to run them as they are if you don't like it. It's your players and your table.

Personally, I revile 4th ed (beyond a joke about the lack of crafting/professions leading to a sweatshop of magically inclined cranking out all the necessities-since rituals seemed the only way to make anything).. I've made threats to my significant other about the fate of any future 4th ed entering our house (something about burning in effigy). I really really don't like it, to say the least.

It isn't that it's empty, or that it's streamlined, it's that it's terribly incomplete. Myself and a friend spent and afternoon combing through the core books, and we couldn't find anything we really liked. Each core book felt like half a book packed in between with useless information that noone we know who plays would actually use. It felt like it was forcing a playstyle, since in order to play, you were nearly required (due to lack of material) to play in one person's particular style. If anything I found it more rigid, due to lack of options(unless you wanted to completely rearrange the system and add in what rules were missing-anyone who's tried to make a system knows what a headache this can be), than anything since 1st ed was released in it's prepackaged dungeon, dice and leaflet box (which I loved, but then again, I was quite young at the time, and so, less demanding).

As our playstyle doesn't fit this one narrow mind set of how the game should be played, we refuse to use it. I'm all for simplicity to bring in new players, but if you take simplicity to it's limit, it becomes nothing more than a series of orders with no options at all.
Faraer Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 18:57:02
But I also wondered what he was going to talk about. He apparently doesn't want to research or discuss the shared/published/Ed's Realms but instead 'make my own fluff to fill in the blanks'. So we could talk about his campaign, but what apart from that?
ranger_of_the_unicorn_run Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 18:09:04
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run

Maybe we scared off the original poster. The vast majority, if not all responses in this thread have been opposed to his viewpoint and maybe he feels like he doesn't fit in here or like people will constantly disagree with his posting.



One tends to get that impression when one's very first post takes a confrontational tone.


Oh, I'm not saying that I agree with what he said or the way he said it, I was simply saying that he probably got the idea that he wouldn't fit in here. I don't know if the tone he used in his post was intentionally confrontational or not. There have been a few people who have said things here that sounded confrontational, but they didn't mean it that way. There have been a few things that I have said that have been misinterpreted, though I do take the initiative to clarify if someone does misinterpret what I say.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 17:30:59
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run

Maybe we scared off the original poster. The vast majority, if not all responses in this thread have been opposed to his viewpoint and maybe he feels like he doesn't fit in here or like people will constantly disagree with his posting.



One tends to get that impression when one's very first post takes a confrontational tone.
scererar Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 15:09:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials?
Well, the "evil mages and corrupt officials" bit isn't exactly a new thing for Waterdeep. We have read about this type of thing happening in the City of Splendors before. And I like the way Steven connected this development with the fallout of the Spellplague. As for the "slum" part... I didn't really see it as such. Rather, I got the impression that this was actually the result of the overall majesty and shine of the City of Splendors having been tarnished, just a little.




I got the impression it was more than just a little tarnished... And as I've said before, I really don't see a center of trade, blessed with a deep and clean harbor, allowing that harbor to become filthy and partially clogged. The Waterdeep of 1479 is not, to me, a logical extension of what the Waterdeep of 1374 was.



I concur what the harbor portion. more so after reading Mistshore. Mistshore will not be present in my realms. My thoughts are that Waterdeep would have been more interested in ensuring the harbor was a safe enough haven after the spellplague. I have kept the harbor clean (I am green that way ) and doubled my efforts of a waterdhavian navel fleet to ensure safer shipping lanes to and from the city of splendors. The rest of the city changes I can live with. I liked Steven's portrayal of the city and it's surroundings in the Blackstaff.
Brimstone Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 03:38:03
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run

Maybe we scared off the original poster. The vast majority, if not all responses in this thread have been opposed to his viewpoint and maybe he feels like he doesn't fit in here or like people will constantly disagree with his posting.


-These types of threads were a weekly thing on the Wizard Boards last summer. Fun times.

-

BRIMSTONE
Wooly Rupert Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 03:30:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials?
Well, the "evil mages and corrupt officials" bit isn't exactly a new thing for Waterdeep. We have read about this type of thing happening in the City of Splendors before. And I like the way Steven connected this development with the fallout of the Spellplague. As for the "slum" part... I didn't really see it as such. Rather, I got the impression that this was actually the result of the overall majesty and shine of the City of Splendors having been tarnished, just a little.




I got the impression it was more than just a little tarnished... And as I've said before, I really don't see a center of trade, blessed with a deep and clean harbor, allowing that harbor to become filthy and partially clogged. The Waterdeep of 1479 is not, to me, a logical extension of what the Waterdeep of 1374 was.
scererar Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 02:07:42

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials?


I have the 4E source books and have read the blackstaff and Mistshore. While there are numerous changes, I did not get the impression of Waterdeep being a slum. Portions truly have changed for the worse, but not the city as a whole. Evil mages and corrupt politicians is just a part of the city of splendors

Remember, the "title" of Blackstaff changed hands prior to 4E, so we already knew it was going that way prior to the edition change.
ranger_of_the_unicorn_run Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 00:27:17
Maybe we scared off the original poster. The vast majority, if not all responses in this thread have been opposed to his viewpoint and maybe he feels like he doesn't fit in here or like people will constantly disagree with his posting.
The Sage Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 23:51:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials?
Well, the "evil mages and corrupt officials" bit isn't exactly a new thing for Waterdeep. We have read about this type of thing happening in the City of Splendors before. And I like the way Steven connected this development with the fallout of the Spellplague. As for the "slum" part... I didn't really see it as such. Rather, I got the impression that this was actually the result of the overall majesty and shine of the City of Splendors having been tarnished, just a little.

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