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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 27 May 2010 : 06:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, if the return of Shade can be it's own series, Selunnarra might have a chance.
However, this is probably further down the line, maybe when the Realms need to be shaken up some more. So I would assume that is when 5E comes out .
Though I'd really love to see them, I still doubt Selunarra will appear in 4E, because Shade is in the limelight.
As to them having their own series, probably in 5E. But I still find no good reason for their return to Toril other than to re-establish the Netherese empire and kick the Shadovar, which is a bit obvious. And whatever reason Wizards thinks of for their return, I think it'll be another RSE.
I don't think they'd be interested in re-establishing the Netherese empire. It's hard to establish an empire without conquest, and I don't see the folk of Selunarra being that type. I think they'd be more likely to pick some nice tract of unclaimed land, and then quietly get in the way -- directly sometimes, and indirectly quite often -- of the Shades.
That, and the fact of previous Opus lore suggesting that the now "planar-born" residents of the enclave might actually have concerns that aren't so focused on *just* Toril [or even just Faerûn] itself. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 07:11:53
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| I daresay anything is still possible. If some gods can be fickle-minded, I don't see any reason why Selunnara can't have a dose of fickle-mindedness themselves: veering their attention from “heavenly” concerns to Toril-ian matters. Whatever those matters are, I'm pretty sure Ed, or Richard, or Troy could think of MANY interesting ones. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 08:58:25
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| I'd dislike Opus returning to the Realms cause of needless symmetry, and when every ancient civilization returns like in 4e it losses its specialty. Having them agents is enough. I wouldn't mind seeing more about the remnants of really obscure civilizations like the one in the polar area, or the other south of Halruaa, the one around the Sorcerer's Isle, or the ancient Talfir, Yuir and Turami cultures. |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 15:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I'd dislike Opus returning to the Realms cause of needless symmetry, and when every ancient civilization returns like in 4e it losses its specialty. Having them agents is enough. I wouldn't mind seeing more about the remnants of really obscure civilizations like the one in the polar area, or the other south of Halruaa, the one around the Sorcerer's Isle, or the ancient Talfir, Yuir and Turami cultures.
It would be symmetry to bring them back, but that's not why I want them back. I want them back because adding another player into the mix can be a lot of fun, with much potential for adventures and behind-the-scenes maneuvering. I also want them back because it would help counter the trend in both 3E and 4E to involve the Shades in every damn thing possible. 
Bringing Shade back was a nice development, but it was one that I feel was overused but misused and never used to its full potential. Shade's return could have explained some of the changes wrought by 3E -- but it was deemed unnecessary to explain those changes. And then, rather than have Shade concentrate on cleaning up and reclaiming the homefront, then trying to reactivate a couple of the crashed enclaves (the one they did lift, I feel, was not a logical choice -- that said, I did not read that trilogy), they wound up becoming the BBEGs of the Realms. I think Shade should have been a more subtle, long-term threat, instead of the constant, in-your-face threat they became.
So bringing Selunarra back would get the attention of the Shades and make them wary, instead of the somehow omnipresent threat they became.
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 16:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I'd dislike Opus returning to the Realms cause of needless symmetry, and when every ancient civilization returns like in 4e it losses its specialty. Having them agents is enough. I wouldn't mind seeing more about the remnants of really obscure civilizations like the one in the polar area, or the other south of Halruaa, the one around the Sorcerer's Isle, or the ancient Talfir, Yuir and Turami cultures.
It would be symmetry to bring them back, but that's not why I want them back. I want them back because adding another player into the mix can be a lot of fun, with much potential for adventures and behind-the-scenes maneuvering. I also want them back because it would help counter the trend in both 3E and 4E to involve the Shades in every damn thing possible.
Bringing Shade back was a nice development, but it was one that I feel was overused but misused and never used to its full potential. Shade's return could have explained some of the changes wrought by 3E -- but it was deemed unnecessary to explain those changes. And then, rather than have Shade concentrate on cleaning up and reclaiming the homefront, then trying to reactivate a couple of the crashed enclaves (the one they did lift, I feel, was not a logical choice -- that said, I did not read that trilogy), they wound up becoming the BBEGs of the Realms. I think Shade should have been a more subtle, long-term threat, instead of the constant, in-your-face threat they became.
So bringing Selunarra back would get the attention of the Shades and make them wary, instead of the somehow omnipresent threat they became.
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
Wooly, your thought on 'where Opus would wind up' got me thinking; I would have said the same thing (i.e. pick an unclaimed area and make it their own) but if the presupposition that the Selunarrans are in contact with the Realms can be made(even if only through the church of Selune, but possibly also through envoys to major 'good' nations) what if they came back over (or near) Silverymoon, and allied themselves with the Silver Marches? This would not only check the Shades, but benefit both Opus and the SM: The Selunarrans wouldn't have to worry about securing the ground under them, and the Marchers gain a magically mighty ally that can relocate to aid any distressed settlement (not to mention a major new buyer of agricultural products).
I think I just decided what my next campaign is going to entail .
EDIT: Whoot! I just hit 350 posts and Senior Scribe-dom! |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 29 May 2010 16:12:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 16:36:56
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That's not a bad thought. Not sure if I would go in that direction -- though it certainly bears consideration.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 May 2010 16:38:19 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 16:49:59
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| The only major obstacle I could see would be opposition from the dwarves (particularly Harbromm) on the council. What were you thinking? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 17:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
The only major obstacle I could see would be opposition from the dwarves (particularly Harbromm) on the council. What were you thinking?
Oh, my thinking was that I'm not sure the Selunarrans would want that much of a commitment to the local powers. There's a large difference between an alliance with a nation and being part of that nation, and both are different than simple friendly relations. After so long being separated from the Realms, I'm not so sure the Selunarrans would rush to ally with its inhabitants.
Of course, trying to convince the returned Selunarrans that such an alliance would be beneficial to them could have much potential... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 May 2010 17:12:51 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 02:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I'd dislike Opus returning to the Realms cause of needless symmetry, and when every ancient civilization returns like in 4e it losses its specialty. Having them agents is enough. I wouldn't mind seeing more about the remnants of really obscure civilizations like the one in the polar area, or the other south of Halruaa, the one around the Sorcerer's Isle, or the ancient Talfir, Yuir and Turami cultures.
It would be symmetry to bring them back, but that's not why I want them back. I want them back because adding another player into the mix can be a lot of fun, with much potential for adventures and behind-the-scenes maneuvering. I also want them back because it would help counter the trend in both 3E and 4E to involve the Shades in every damn thing possible.
Bringing Shade back was a nice development, but it was one that I feel was overused but misused and never used to its full potential. Shade's return could have explained some of the changes wrought by 3E -- but it was deemed unnecessary to explain those changes. And then, rather than have Shade concentrate on cleaning up and reclaiming the homefront, then trying to reactivate a couple of the crashed enclaves (the one they did lift, I feel, was not a logical choice -- that said, I did not read that trilogy), they wound up becoming the BBEGs of the Realms. I think Shade should have been a more subtle, long-term threat, instead of the constant, in-your-face threat they became.
So bringing Selunarra back would get the attention of the Shades and make them wary, instead of the somehow omnipresent threat they became.
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
>On Shade's being supposedly subtle, long-term threat....
=I don't know how you define subtle in the context of Shade's actions since their return to Faerun. Is it mind-controlling some lords and high mages from various realms? Or sending spies and impostors? Or creating a realms-encompassing plague whose origin would remain a mystery for years to those outside the city? Whatever it is, I think Shade being the threat that they are now is fine. Their evil (or selfish) achievements helped changed the realms in fascinating ways, like the near-destruction of Evareska, the annihilation of Tilverton, the conquering of Sembia, the transformation of the great desert to Reborn Netheril, etc...
>On Selunarra opposing Shade....
=Somehow I see Selunarra as Wizards' best resort to rid of the Shadovar. When the day comes that Wizards deems Shade as “already boring,” I think they would gladly bring Selunarra back to efface Shade from Toril, and perhaps throw in the mix the Chosen as well...Some sort of Shade's final battle. Obviously though, they don't think – YET – that Shade is boring, otherwise they would have included Shade as one of the realms that got swept and utterly destroyed by the SP. 
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 03:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
>On Shade's being supposedly subtle, long-term threat....
=I don't know how you define subtle in the context of Shade's actions since their return to Faerun. Is it mind-controlling some lords and high mages from various realms? Or sending spies and impostors? Or creating a realms-encompassing plague whose origin would remain a mystery for years to those outside the city? Whatever it is, I think Shade being the threat that they are now is fine. Their evil (or selfish) achievements helped changed the realms in fascinating ways, like the near-destruction of Evareska, the annihilation of Tilverton, the conquering of Sembia, the transformation of the great desert to Reborn Netheril, etc...
See, none of that stuff is subtle. Even their attempt to take down the Weave was far from subtle. The fake temple in the first module, though, was something more in line with what I think is the more logical approach.
For all their power, Shade is just one city. And yet, they had a huge impact on the Realms. With a smaller populace, they did more to change the face of the Realms in a very short time than the Zhents or Red Wizards had accomplished in a much longer period of time. And to me, it's just not logical that they could do so much, so quickly, when older, larger, more established groups could not move so quickly or decisively. It just does not make sense to me that they could come out of nowhere and suddenly be the biggest, baddest threat around.
When I see all that they've done, it does not strike me as something that fits in with the Realms. What I see is that someone at WotC decided anything shadow-related was cool, and thus shadow-related stuff became dominant, despite prior lore or logic.
To me, the logical thing would be that the Shades showed up, started trying to reclaim the Anauroch, tangled with the Zhents and Harpers, and sent out agents to work behind the scenes to enrich Shade and hamper their foes. I see them working towards becoming the power behind the throne, not taking the throne themselves. I see them aiming their enemies at each other, not casually wiping them all out.
In other words, I see the shadows remaining shadowy, not standing in the limelight. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 04:20:32
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Wooly,
Let us remember that the Shadovar's source of magic is different from the Red Wizard, Zhents and other bad asses in the realms, so it stands to reason that they accomplished what those others never had. Consider this scene in “The Siege”:
<<<<<<<After unleashing the phaerimm, they had journeyed into the Dire Wood, fighting
liches and other undead guardians in order to help Melegaunt recover the famed
Karsestone and use its "heavy" magic—from a time before the Weave and Shadow
Weave split—to return Shade Enclave to Faerûn.
"I guess they only needed the stone to open a large enough gate between the
dimensions," he said. "Apparently, the Shadow Weave can still support spells
powerful enough to levitate a city."
"The Weave can't?" Vala asked.
"It hasn't," Galaeron answered, shrugging. "Not since the fall of Netheril."
If Vala saw the danger in that, her expression didn't show it. "That is good news for
Evereska, if it means the Shadovar are more powerful than the phaerimm."
Galaeron nodded, but didn't say what it might also mean. If the Shadovar were more
powerful than the phaerimm, then they were also more powerful than most of the
great wizards of the realms. Only the Chosen themselves, or perhaps an entire circle
of high mages, could rival their power. >>>>>>>
You see, the Weave has a Ban, while the Shadow Weave has none. Which means the Shadovar can cast spells far more powerful than those by accomplished elven high mages or any human archmage or Red Wizard.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 04:28:34
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dennis,
This of course just begs the question: Why didn't Shade and Sakkors crash and splatter when the Weave (and the Shadow Weave with it) went away in 1385? The only answer I have is that logic crashed and splattered instead, and I'm tired of that thought. If you have a better answer, I'd love to hear it. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 04:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
>On Shade's being supposedly subtle, long-term threat....
=I don't know how you define subtle in the context of Shade's actions since their return to Faerun. Is it mind-controlling some lords and high mages from various realms? Or sending spies and impostors? Or creating a realms-encompassing plague whose origin would remain a mystery for years to those outside the city? Whatever it is, I think Shade being the threat that they are now is fine. Their evil (or selfish) achievements helped changed the realms in fascinating ways, like the near-destruction of Evareska, the annihilation of Tilverton, the conquering of Sembia, the transformation of the great desert to Reborn Netheril, etc...
For all their power, Shade is just one city. And yet, they had a huge impact on the Realms. With a smaller populace, they did more to change the face of the Realms in a very short time than the Zhents or Red Wizards had accomplished in a much longer period of time. And to me, it's just not logical that they could do so much, so quickly, when older, larger, more established groups could not move so quickly or decisively. It just does not make sense to me that they could come out of nowhere and suddenly be the biggest, baddest threat around.
Shade is far older than the Zhentil Keep or Thay. And the Shadovar was NOT totally absent. They have been around longer than the Zhents or the Red Wizards, albeit in the Plane of Shadow; but that did not hinder them to keep themselves abreast of the goings-on in Toril. They sent spies like Melegaunt... Also, their stay in the Plane of Shadow toughened them to a considerable degree....Imagine fighting the Malaugrim in daily basis! And experiences like such, with their very long time experimenting with the Shadow Weave, had helped them become more powerful than most Weave-based spellcasters in Faerun.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 04:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
dennis,
This of course just begs the question: Why didn't Shade and Sakkors crash and splatter when the Weave (and the Shadow Weave with it) went away in 1385? The only answer I have is that logic crashed and splattered instead, and I'm tired of that thought. If you have a better answer, I'd love to hear it.
I asked that to myself when I read Undead, where Szass Tam discovered that it was not only the Weave that shattered, but the Shadow Weave as well. Well, MY theory is SHAR herself saved Shade. If Selune was able to save Opus from Netheril's fall, why indeed can't Shar spare Shade, her chosen people, especially that she herself orchestrated the SP.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 06:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Wooly,
Let us remember that the Shadovar's source of magic is different from the Red Wizard, Zhents and other bad asses in the realms, so it stands to reason that they accomplished what those others never had. Consider this scene in “The Siege”:
<<<<<<<After unleashing the phaerimm, they had journeyed into the Dire Wood, fighting
liches and other undead guardians in order to help Melegaunt recover the famed
Karsestone and use its "heavy" magic—from a time before the Weave and Shadow
Weave split—to return Shade Enclave to Faerûn.
"I guess they only needed the stone to open a large enough gate between the
dimensions," he said. "Apparently, the Shadow Weave can still support spells
powerful enough to levitate a city."
"The Weave can't?" Vala asked.
"It hasn't," Galaeron answered, shrugging. "Not since the fall of Netheril."
If Vala saw the danger in that, her expression didn't show it. "That is good news for
Evereska, if it means the Shadovar are more powerful than the phaerimm."
Galaeron nodded, but didn't say what it might also mean. If the Shadovar were more
powerful than the phaerimm, then they were also more powerful than most of the
great wizards of the realms. Only the Chosen themselves, or perhaps an entire circle
of high mages, could rival their power. >>>>>>>
You see, the Weave has a Ban, while the Shadow Weave has none. Which means the Shadovar can cast spells far more powerful than those by accomplished elven high mages or any human archmage or Red Wizard.
That doesn't change the fact that they're grossly outnumbered by other groups, and still showed them up. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 06:08:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
>On Shade's being supposedly subtle, long-term threat....
=I don't know how you define subtle in the context of Shade's actions since their return to Faerun. Is it mind-controlling some lords and high mages from various realms? Or sending spies and impostors? Or creating a realms-encompassing plague whose origin would remain a mystery for years to those outside the city? Whatever it is, I think Shade being the threat that they are now is fine. Their evil (or selfish) achievements helped changed the realms in fascinating ways, like the near-destruction of Evareska, the annihilation of Tilverton, the conquering of Sembia, the transformation of the great desert to Reborn Netheril, etc...
For all their power, Shade is just one city. And yet, they had a huge impact on the Realms. With a smaller populace, they did more to change the face of the Realms in a very short time than the Zhents or Red Wizards had accomplished in a much longer period of time. And to me, it's just not logical that they could do so much, so quickly, when older, larger, more established groups could not move so quickly or decisively. It just does not make sense to me that they could come out of nowhere and suddenly be the biggest, baddest threat around.
Shade is far older than the Zhentil Keep or Thay. And the Shadovar was NOT totally absent. They have been around longer than the Zhents or the Red Wizards, albeit in the Plane of Shadow; but that did not hinder them to keep themselves abreast of the goings-on in Toril. They sent spies like Melegaunt... Also, their stay in the Plane of Shadow toughened them to a considerable degree....Imagine fighting the Malaugrim in daily basis! And experiences like such, with their very long time experimenting with the Shadow Weave, had helped them become more powerful than most Weave-based spellcasters in Faerun.
As far as the wider Realms is concerned, the Shades are a new group. It doesn't matter how old they are, they have not been established in the Realms for over a millenia. And yet they still did more than what established groups, who'd been at it for generations or centuries, were able to do.
And having a few spellslingers who were more powerful is also irrelevant. The Red Wizards and the Zhents both have more mages, and more swords, and aren't going to be inconvenienced by a flashlight.
It is simply not logical that a small group, outnumbered by every single other group out there, out of touch with the local situations and people, and not having an established network of agents and informants, could still outperform in every way those other groups. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 07:26:39
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| The Shades did 'mud-hole stomp' the Zhents down... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 07:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
>On Shade's being supposedly subtle, long-term threat....
=I don't know how you define subtle in the context of Shade's actions since their return to Faerun. Is it mind-controlling some lords and high mages from various realms? Or sending spies and impostors? Or creating a realms-encompassing plague whose origin would remain a mystery for years to those outside the city? Whatever it is, I think Shade being the threat that they are now is fine. Their evil (or selfish) achievements helped changed the realms in fascinating ways, like the near-destruction of Evareska, the annihilation of Tilverton, the conquering of Sembia, the transformation of the great desert to Reborn Netheril, etc...
For all their power, Shade is just one city. And yet, they had a huge impact on the Realms. With a smaller populace, they did more to change the face of the Realms in a very short time than the Zhents or Red Wizards had accomplished in a much longer period of time. And to me, it's just not logical that they could do so much, so quickly, when older, larger, more established groups could not move so quickly or decisively. It just does not make sense to me that they could come out of nowhere and suddenly be the biggest, baddest threat around.
Shade is far older than the Zhentil Keep or Thay. And the Shadovar was NOT totally absent. They have been around longer than the Zhents or the Red Wizards, albeit in the Plane of Shadow; but that did not hinder them to keep themselves abreast of the goings-on in Toril. They sent spies like Melegaunt... Also, their stay in the Plane of Shadow toughened them to a considerable degree....Imagine fighting the Malaugrim in daily basis! And experiences like such, with their very long time experimenting with the Shadow Weave, had helped them become more powerful than most Weave-based spellcasters in Faerun.
And having a few spellslingers who were more powerful is also irrelevant. The Red Wizards and the Zhents both have more mages, and more swords, and aren't going to be inconvenienced by a flashlight.
It is simply not logical that a small group, outnumbered by every single other group out there, out of touch with the local situations and people, and not having an established network of agents and informants, could still outperform in every way those other groups.
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. Number matters, but POWER matters most. Imagine Larloch surrounded by hundreds or even thousands of battle-crazed, filthy bugbears. I don't think he would even deign lift a hand to cast a spell...he'll most probably just stare at them to death. Or imagine yourself surrounded by hundreds of tiny, insignificant ants. A splash of hot water or a spray of what-have-you will surely save you the mere inconvenience. The comparison might seem much like a hyperbole than a metaphor, but you get the picture. The Shadovar are few, but they're capable of so many things others only dream of.
Moreover, we should also consider that they are VERY cautious, more than others ( like the Zhents and the cockroach Manshoon who never learns that no matter what means he uses to eliminate Elminster in face-to-face combat, he'll never succeed). The Shadovar don't and won't engage in battles that they know will most likely spell their doom, say in one full battle against all the Chosen and their allied realms. Telamont in the Twilight War even forced Rivalen to end the Shadowstorm soon before “Faerun's powerful” take interest of it...
Lastly, the Shadovar do have agents (the Sembians, for instance), who help them manipulate certain people and orchestrate plans without actually doing them in person.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 07:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Shades did 'mud-hole stomp' the Zhents down...
A good Shadovar accomplishment...I wonder why did they not do to ZK what they did to Tilverton??? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 09:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Shades did 'mud-hole stomp' the Zhents down...
A good Shadovar accomplishment...I wonder why did they not do to ZK what they did to Tilverton???
Because Tilverton wasn't as much of a threat to Shadovar power and ambition in the region. The destruction of Zhentil Keep was, essentially, the Shades' way of ensuring an end to whatever threat the Black Network might have posed to their power.
And, besides, what happened to Tilverton was really more a result of Vangerdahast's attempt to counter the effects of the Shadow Weave. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 15:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I'd dislike Opus returning to the Realms cause of needless symmetry, and when every ancient civilization returns like in 4e it losses its specialty. Having them agents is enough. I wouldn't mind seeing more about the remnants of really obscure civilizations like the one in the polar area, or the other south of Halruaa, the one around the Sorcerer's Isle, or the ancient Talfir, Yuir and Turami cultures.
It would be symmetry to bring them back, but that's not why I want them back. I want them back because adding another player into the mix can be a lot of fun, with much potential for adventures and behind-the-scenes maneuvering. I also want them back because it would help counter the trend in both 3E and 4E to involve the Shades in every damn thing possible.
Bringing Shade back was a nice development, but it was one that I feel was overused but misused and never used to its full potential. Shade's return could have explained some of the changes wrought by 3E -- but it was deemed unnecessary to explain those changes. And then, rather than have Shade concentrate on cleaning up and reclaiming the homefront, then trying to reactivate a couple of the crashed enclaves (the one they did lift, I feel, was not a logical choice -- that said, I did not read that trilogy), they wound up becoming the BBEGs of the Realms. I think Shade should have been a more subtle, long-term threat, instead of the constant, in-your-face threat they became.
So bringing Selunarra back would get the attention of the Shades and make them wary, instead of the somehow omnipresent threat they became.
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
That's is exactly one of the reasons why I don't want them back , bringing Opus back would mean that Shade gets even more attention, it would be something like the Cold War, and I agree that Shade is presented as too powerful, the Realms is a high magic setting with thousands of high level mages and they shouldn't do whatever they want, at least not so unsubtle. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 15:48:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. Number matters, but POWER matters most. Imagine Larloch surrounded by hundreds or even thousands of battle-crazed, filthy bugbears. I don't think he would even deign lift a hand to cast a spell...he'll most probably just stare at them to death. Or imagine yourself surrounded by hundreds of tiny, insignificant ants. A splash of hot water or a spray of what-have-you will surely save you the mere inconvenience. The comparison might seem much like a hyperbole than a metaphor, but you get the picture. The Shadovar are few, but they're capable of so many things others only dream of.
Power does matter, yes. But numbers also matter. Having a handful of high-level casters can do a lot for you -- but having a hundred mid-to-high level can also do a lot. No matter how powerful a spellcaster is, he can be overcome by a sufficiently larger number of less-powerful casters. The Shadovar may be able to outblast the first wave of mages... But what about the second, third, fourth and fifth waves? That's why I say their numbers are too small: one city of mages is doing more than a nation of mages, and more than a city-state which controls much of the surrounding area and has a network of mages scattered over all the Realms.
Saying the Shades are Larloch and others are bugbears or ants is simply not a valid comparison.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Moreover, we should also consider that they are VERY cautious, more than others ( like the Zhents and the cockroach Manshoon who never learns that no matter what means he uses to eliminate Elminster in face-to-face combat, he'll never succeed). The Shadovar don't and won't engage in battles that they know will most likely spell their doom, say in one full battle against all the Chosen and their allied realms. Telamont in the Twilight War even forced Rivalen to end the Shadowstorm soon before “Faerun's powerful” take interest of it...
Funny, but immediately announcing your presence, trying to change the environment, and conquering a nation not even close to you is not what I would call cautious. That's about as cautious and subtle as the Tuigan horde was.
Besides, I'm not convinced that there is anyone who would be allowed to oppose the Shades in battle. Logic has already been thrown out the window, for them -- they were unstoppable when they first showed up. By the 4E Realms, they're even more powerful. Without a major editorial change coming down, no one will be able to stop them. They are, right now, the author's darlings of the entire setting.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Lastly, the Shadovar do have agents (the Sembians, for instance), who help them manipulate certain people and orchestrate plans without actually doing them in person.
Yeah, they have that now, after conquering the nation. But that's still not the same as having a secret network of spies, informants, and saboteurs. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 May 2010 15:54:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 15:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That's is exactly one of the reasons why I don't want them back , bringing Opus back would mean that Shade gets even more attention, it would be something like the Cold War, and I agree that Shade is presented as too powerful, the Realms is a high magic setting with thousands of high level mages and they shouldn't do whatever they want, at least not so unsubtle.
I don't think it's possible, at this point, for Shade to get even more attention. They're already involved in everything... What else is there, that could make them more prominent? Heck, in the 4E Realms, the Harpers were reformed just to oppose the Shades! |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 May 2010 15:51:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 17:19:16
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Ummmm... we find out that Ao was really Karsus all along?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 17:32:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ummmm... we find out that Ao was really Karsus all along?
No, we'll find out Shar was really Ao. Shar's the one that's "kewl" right now. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 18:27:22
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But she is TOO cool - we can't use her, because her uber kewlness is just too filled with awesomeness for the simple scribes of Candlekeep to even comprehend! 
Before this goes any further, I just want to add that I think its kinda funny (in a sad way) how things work out.
THE biggest complaint the FR-Naysayers had about the setting was how unbalanced it was, with all the uber-characters floating around, like the Chosen.
Fact is, I think Wizbro's 'fix' to the imaginary problem actually caused the problem to come about. I couldn't play in circa 1500's, because it is too lop-sided for me - it just doesn't seem plausible.
Fantasy is fantasy, after all, but good fantasy should never make you say "WTF?" Even fantasy must make sense and have balance, otherwise it is pulp nonsense.
So if the new Netherease are supposed to be the Necromungers - all powerful in their flying fortresses and half-dead - then I suppose the 4e PCs are Riddick.
And Riddick is the SciFi equivalent of Chuck Norris. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2010 16:21:00 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 19:58:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>... I couldn't play in circa 1500's, because it is too lop-sided for me - it just doesn't seem plausible.
Fantasy is fantasy, after all, but good fantasy should never make you say "WTF?" Even fantasy must make sense and have balance, otherwise it is pulp nonsense.
Sage, we really need more smilies... right now I need a "cheer" smiley, a "bow and scrape" smiley, and probably at least one other. I'll settle for summarizing with:
Markustay for  ... of what, I'm not sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So if the new Netherease are supposed to be the Necromungers - all powerful in their flying fortresses and half-dead - then I suppose the 4e PCs are Riddick.
And Riddick is the SciFi equivalent of Chuck Norris.
And the Realms are not sci-fi... or at least they weren't. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 07:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I don't think it's irrelevant at all. Number matters, but POWER matters most. Imagine Larloch surrounded by hundreds or even thousands of battle-crazed, filthy bugbears. I don't think he would even deign lift a hand to cast a spell...he'll most probably just stare at them to death. Or imagine yourself surrounded by hundreds of tiny, insignificant ants. A splash of hot water or a spray of what-have-you will surely save you the mere inconvenience. The comparison might seem much like a hyperbole than a metaphor, but you get the picture. The Shadovar are few, but they're capable of so many things others only dream of.
Power does matter, yes. But numbers also matter. Having a handful of high-level casters can do a lot for you -- but having a hundred mid-to-high level can also do a lot. No matter how powerful a spellcaster is, he can be overcome by a sufficiently larger number of less-powerful casters. The Shadovar may be able to outblast the first wave of mages... But what about the second, third, fourth and fifth waves? That's why I say their numbers are too small: one city of mages is doing more than a nation of mages, and more than a city-state which controls much of the surrounding area and has a network of mages scattered over all the Realms.
Saying the Shades are Larloch and others are bugbears or ants is simply not a valid comparison.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Moreover, we should also consider that they are VERY cautious, more than others ( like the Zhents and the cockroach Manshoon who never learns that no matter what means he uses to eliminate Elminster in face-to-face combat, he'll never succeed). The Shadovar don't and won't engage in battles that they know will most likely spell their doom, say in one full battle against all the Chosen and their allied realms. Telamont in the Twilight War even forced Rivalen to end the Shadowstorm soon before “Faerun's powerful” take interest of it...
Funny, but immediately announcing your presence, trying to change the environment, and conquering a nation not even close to you is not what I would call cautious. That's about as cautious and subtle as the Tuigan horde was.
Besides, I'm not convinced that there is anyone who would be allowed to oppose the Shades in battle. Logic has already been thrown out the window, for them -- they were unstoppable when they first showed up. By the 4E Realms, they're even more powerful. Without a major editorial change coming down, no one will be able to stop them. They are, right now, the author's darlings of the entire setting.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Lastly, the Shadovar do have agents (the Sembians, for instance), who help them manipulate certain people and orchestrate plans without actually doing them in person.
Yeah, they have that now, after conquering the nation. But that's still not the same as having a secret network of spies, informants, and saboteurs.
On the Shadovar being cautious:
Shade did not immediately engage in war against the entire Sembia. They manipulated people here and there (Tamlin, among them) so Sembia would at some point split and plunge in a civil war. They made people believe that they only “offered help” to Selgaunt to end the disastrous civil war and unite the realm in the end. So to those who don't know better, be it non-Sembians or the blind Sembians themselves, Shade only helped Sembia to be its “ally.” Had Telamont decided not to be subtle, he could have simply appointed one or two of the princes or his best lackeys to replace Sembia's nominal leaders.
As of the Shadowstorm, well, the Shadovar never wanted it to happen in the first place. That's why Telamont forced Rivalen to end it quickly, otherwise the Chosen and the high mages of the neighboring realms would have opposed them personally.
On Shade's agents:
Their agents are not like the established groups of spies and agents, but agents still the same, possessing more or less the same abilities of those established groups. And there are many of them too.
On number and power:
As I said in my earlier post, number still matters, but power matters most. It is rather very unlikely that Shade can withstand a combined assault by seven or ten of Faerun's biggest and most powerful realms (Waterdeep, Cormyr, Evermeet, Thay, Aglarond, Shadowdale, Evareska...), that's why they choose their battles well as much as they can. They are aware of their own might and its implications, but they are not foolish enough as to risk their lives by letting something huge, something like a grand alliance of their enemies, to take place. For this very reason, they manipulated people within a city or nation so that they turn on each, weakening themselves and therefore becoming more susceptible to defeat (like Sembia's case).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 13:21:25
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You're still not seeing my point. Zhentil Keep and the Red Wizards can both muster a lot of mages -- more magic than what the Shades have. Both groups have been around for generations, at the least. Both groups have got agents scattered all across the Realms, furthering the causes and interests of the parent organizations.
And yet, any time these groups try to make a move, other groups block them. There is a logical balance of power that keeps them in check.
Then along comes Shade. They make a huge, splashy entrance. They immediately antagonize every power group in the Realms -- the exact same groups that have held the Zhents and Thay in check for years, plus the Zhents and the Thayans themselves! And yet, despite all this, the Shades are still doing whatever they want, and accomplish whatever they want.
You keep fixating on the fact that Shade has a lot of high-level mages. So what? You think no one else does? These other groups can muster more mages, and those mages are nearly as powerful -- their numbers balance out and indeed overcome the Shades' advantage in levels. And these other groups have more raw numbers to work with.
People have complained that the Chosen of Mystra were the Justice League of the Realms, and that they were an unstoppable force for good. Now we've gone the other way -- we have an unstoppable force for evil. The difference was that the Chosen were just a handful of people, who couldn't possibly stand against all their enemies at once. The Shades, on the other hand, have been written about in such a fashion that even when people do try to oppose them, they still lose.
As I said, they have become the authors' darlings of the setting. They have not had serious opposition, and the current crew at WotC won't let them have serious opposition.
Other than their return, much of what Shade has done has violated logic and prior canon. And if you can't see that, then we need to agree to disagree. |
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What if -- Selunnarra returned to the Realms?
