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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2010 : 14:52:28
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You are the one who does not, or refuse, to see my point. Which makes debating further quite disheartening, if not utterly pointless... But then again, the whole hogwash about having our own and respecting each other's opinion is still paradoxically true. Hence, we have nil to agree on except to disagree.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Jun 2010 11:06:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 15:03:34
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Okay, let's all calm down. We're here for a friendly exchange of ideas about Realmslore. Each and every scribe is entitled to their own opinions.
Please try to remember that.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 16:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Fantasy is fantasy, after all, but good fantasy should never make you say "WTF?" Even fantasy must make sense and have balance, otherwise it is pulp nonsense.
Nope, pulp nonsense is at times a good thing and should never have you thinking WTF. Pulp is escapism, as is most fantasy, except it has less pretensions of literature. Fantasy that wants to make sense should do that, but fantasy that wants to just be imaginative and create a good story doesn't need to. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 16:51:44
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You either love the Shades, or hate them - there is no in-between.
Simple fact is that they were designed to replace the Zhents - and did - as the main adversary for PCs. Since the game was 'kicked up a notch', the villains had to be as well.
The Zhents were great, adjustable antagonists - you can set a group of them against any level party, and the reasoning for the 'higher ups' not getting involved (against the party) was built right in - Zhents do not care about their underlings, and also use 'adventurers' to test their lowbies and new recruits.
The whole reason why it was felt that they needed to be replaced was because of the imagined 'Keystone cops' outlook people had towrd them. They didn't understand what I said above - that many plots were never meant to succeed. For every 100 Zhentish schemes you hear about failing, there is one that succeeds - that's the one they really cared about, and furthered their true goals. Everything else is merely distraction.
If people really understood the Zhents, that silly attitude would have never come about and the designers would not have felt they needed replacing with a more successful group. Furthermore, in order to insure that the same attitude never creeps-in where the Shodowvar are concerned WotC does their best to make them appear always successful at everything (theoretically making them better adversaries for the PCs).
The simple fact is, that where the Zhents were a knife in the dark, the Shades are a sledgehammer to the face. More direct villains for a simpler game played by a new, more casual generation of gamers.
If the Chosen were the JLA, then heaven help us, we just got us an entire city of Dr. Dooms. No... wait... Doom is subtle (most of the time).... more like a city of Magneto's.
But I should keep this DC with the JLA reference, so I guess Shade is really Apocalypse and Telemont is Darkseid. 
Oh, and before I set anybody off, let me just say its not Shade and the Netherese I dislike - its what they've done with them. There is no such thing as a bad villain - only bad writing about them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 17:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But I should keep this DC with the JLA reference, so I guess Shade is really Apocalypse and Telemont is Darkseid.
Hmmm. Shade really hits me more as a Thanos-type. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 17:16:30
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To be honest, I think I like the DC version better for a change. Thanos was a bit too over-the-top, with his love for death (the actual entity!), and that whole infinity gauntlet thingy.
maybe thats why you make that comparison? 
Did you catch the cross-over, wherein Darkseid dons the Infinity Gauntlet? Classic!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2010 : 23:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<chop>As I said, they have become the authors' darlings of the setting. They have not had serious opposition, and the current crew at WotC won't let them have serious opposition.
Other than their return, much of what Shade has done has violated logic and prior canon.<snip>
Wooly... I'm curious as to how you would have handled the return of Shade, in terms of their actions post-return.
All scribes... I'm looking for a timeline of major events involving Shade, and how those events turn out; something a bit more detailed than the entries in the GHotR. I don't like the Shades enough to bother reading all of the novels they feature in, unless I really like the individual author in question on a case-by-case basis. If anyone can link me to something that's ready-made, that would be perfect; I don't want to make this a project for anybody except myself, so if such a thing doesn't exist, just say so. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 01:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Wooly... I'm curious as to how you would have handled the return of Shade, in terms of their actions post-return.
It's mostly what I said on page 3:
quote:
To me, the logical thing would be that the Shades showed up, started trying to reclaim the Anauroch, tangled with the Zhents and Harpers, and sent out agents to work behind the scenes to enrich Shade and hamper their foes. I see them working towards becoming the power behind the throne, not taking the throne themselves. I see them aiming their enemies at each other, not casually wiping them all out.
In other words, I see the shadows remaining shadowy, not standing in the limelight.
I see them securing their homefront first, then slowly working their way into other Realms. I see them spending many years in securing their own powerbase and establishing a network of agents, before ever overtly moving against someone else. These guys spent 16 centuries away from home... What's another generation, to get their pieces in place?
And really, either the Silver Marches or Zhentil Keep would be the first choice -- and they'd work on subversion long before overt conquest. I think they'd slowly take over the Zhentarim, first, and maybe work on some of the outer edges of Luruar. (Luruar for the real estate, the Zhents for their attempts to control the Anauroch).
Basically, since they see themselves as Netheril, it would only make sense that they concentrated on that which actually was Netheril.
Also, I see them using their network of agents to influence other groups to go for each other, not them. If the Harpers and the Zhents are staying at each other's throats, then no one is paying attention to Shade.
As for raising other enclaves... I've not read all of Paul Kemp's books, so I don't know if there was a reason they went for Sakkors. Me, I'd've had them use the Red Wizards to distract the Simbul, then raise Nhalloth -- that city was fairly intact (unlike Sakkors, which splashed down then rolled a few miles). There's also rumored to be an enclave in Firedrake Bay, in Tethyr. So for me, I'd not imagine them even pondering conquest until they could get all three of those enclaves up and running again.
And only after those three were going again would I think of raising Sakkors. It may have been the closest, but it was also the most heavily damaged.
Now, once the Anauroch was a secure homefront and they had three or four working enclaves, then they could be a more overt threat. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Jun 2010 01:05:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 01:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To be honest, I think I like the DC version better for a change. Thanos was a bit too over-the-top, with his love for death (the actual entity!), and that whole infinity gauntlet thingy.
maybe thats why you make that comparison?
Actually, I was thinking early-to-mid 70's Thanos, from the Avengers... when he was only obsessed with destroying Captain Marvel and conquering the universe.
quote:
Did you catch the cross-over, wherein Darkseid dons the Infinity Gauntlet? Classic!
No. Unfortunately I missed it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 02:16:17
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I agree across the board, Wooly. I too find it mind-boggling that they could so effortlessly succeed where other, better-entrenched powers had failed, and feel that Sakkors was a really *bad* choice. Further, given that they have one of the few epic spellcasters in all the Realms to have access to the Proctiv's Move mountain and Create Mythallar epic spells, why they wouldn't just *make* a new enclave.
Having said all that, my real beef is that the Shades pitted themselves against *everyone*: The Red Wizards, the Zhents, the Harpers, Cormyr, the Elves, the Lord's Alliance, the Phaerimms, the Sharn, the Sopranos.... well, you get the idea... and yet won it all. It's the opposite of believability and (IMO) represented the absolute nadir of Realms fiction. Even had the whole 4e/timejump thing not happened, I think I would have stopped following canon Realmslore at this point.
As for how it *should have gone*, Wooly has the bulk of it right, IMO... secure your base (or alternatively, pick *one* enemy and cripple them at a blow, taking their holdings and chattels as your own) and then you can start moving against multiple targets.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 03:54:30
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I'd agree with Wooly on everything above - Shadows should stay in the shadows.
I think Shade could have been great, but I think they went completely in the wrong direction with it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 04:14:59
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Really wish I could edit my posts...
Just for you Sage - no-one should miss this
In the next panel he carelessly tosses the gauntlet to the ground. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 05:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Really wish I could edit my posts...
Just for you Sage - no-one should miss this
In the next panel he carelessly tosses the gauntlet to the ground.
Well, to be fair, it's made clear that the Infinity Gauntlet won't function in the DC Universe the same way it does in the Marvel Universe. If the Infinity Gems still possessed the ability to affect change on the DC side of things, I doubt Darkseid would've discarded it so easily. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 11:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Wooly... I'm curious as to how you would have handled the return of Shade, in terms of their actions post-return.
It's mostly what I said on page 3:
quote:
To me, the logical thing would be that the Shades showed up, started trying to reclaim the Anauroch, tangled with the Zhents and Harpers, and sent out agents to work behind the scenes to enrich Shade and hamper their foes. I see them working towards becoming the power behind the throne, not taking the throne themselves. I see them aiming their enemies at each other, not casually wiping them all out.
In other words, I see the shadows remaining shadowy, not standing in the limelight.
I see them securing their homefront first, then slowly working their way into other Realms. I see them spending many years in securing their own powerbase and establishing a network of agents, before ever overtly moving against someone else. These guys spent 16 centuries away from home... What's another generation, to get their pieces in place?
And really, either the Silver Marches or Zhentil Keep would be the first choice -- and they'd work on subversion long before overt conquest. I think they'd slowly take over the Zhentarim, first, and maybe work on some of the outer edges of Luruar. (Luruar for the real estate, the Zhents for their attempts to control the Anauroch).
Basically, since they see themselves as Netheril, it would only make sense that they concentrated on that which actually was Netheril.
Also, I see them using their network of agents to influence other groups to go for each other, not them. If the Harpers and the Zhents are staying at each other's throats, then no one is paying attention to Shade.
As for raising other enclaves... I've not read all of Paul Kemp's books, so I don't know if there was a reason they went for Sakkors. Me, I'd've had them use the Red Wizards to distract the Simbul, then raise Nhalloth -- that city was fairly intact (unlike Sakkors, which splashed down then rolled a few miles). There's also rumored to be an enclave in Firedrake Bay, in Tethyr. So for me, I'd not imagine them even pondering conquest until they could get all three of those enclaves up and running again.
And only after those three were going again would I think of raising Sakkors. It may have been the closest, but it was also the most heavily damaged.
Now, once the Anauroch was a secure homefront and they had three or four working enclaves, then they could be a more overt threat.
In Twilight War, it was mentioned that the only surviving enclave that has a more or less working mythallar is Sakkors. Which means that others don't (though still subject to confirmation), and so Telamont sees no reason to salvage the others. Despite his power, he cannot – at least yet – create another mythallar, or repair an almost completely destroyed one (another reason he needed Karsus's Stone to shift Shade back to Faerun, instead of creating one more mythallar to double the potency of the current one).
Who knows though, Wizards might be saving those three for Selunnara to raise on their return. As to how? Probably by using a mythallar-like device powered by divine magic (Selune's, to be precise).
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 18:29:09
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| I have a general idea of how I'm going to retcon it all for my Realms now... the following points are not in chronological order, but just in the order in which they occur to me. First, the Shades' attempt to raise Sakkors is going to fail... spectacularly. Second, Shade nukes Zhentil Keep as per canon. Third, after having secured their dominion over Anauroch (and the Black Road) by the obliteration of ZK, Shade overtly retreats to within the borders of the desert and begins their war against the phaerimm... while subtly working the foundations of various long-term plots that have yet to be set in motion. I need to read the Return of the Archwizards and re-read the Shadow War (in that order) before I flesh things out any further. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Jun 2010 18:29:35 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 21:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Really wish I could edit my posts...
Just for you Sage - no-one should miss this
In the next panel he carelessly tosses the gauntlet to the ground.
Well, to be fair, it's made clear that the Infinity Gauntlet won't function in the DC Universe the same way it does in the Marvel Universe. If the Infinity Gems still possessed the ability to affect change on the DC side of things, I doubt Darkseid would've discarded it so easily.
Always thought if you attach the Infinity Gems to a Cosmic Cube, it might work in the DC World. Mainly by altering the local reality so the gems work. Either that or massive overkill. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 22:45:17
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I just thought it was funny, that what was so important to one universe was considered garbage in another.
But seriously, that series had one of my favorite covers of all time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 23:12:28
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SuperThor!
Or was it Thorman? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 23:42:14
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Capt. Thorman
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 05:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Capt. Thorman
I was thinkin that also...
Did Doom ever get ahold of the Infinity Gauntlet? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 06:04:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Capt. Thorman
I was thinkin that also...
Did Doom ever get ahold of the Infinity Gauntlet?
Yes. In the actual Infinity Gauntlet saga [very briefly] and again in an alternate What If? tale were he took on Galactus, as I recall.
--The Sage, Candlekeep's resident Doctor Doom geek! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:00:22
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Sorry for the ressurection but...
What would be the political/cutural/other effects on Faerun (in places like Cormyr, Shade and Sembia) if Selunarra/Opus were to return to the world of Toril? Either on purpose or some kind of side effect of the Spellplague (Displaced in time, space and dimension perhaps).
I know people don't like the idea of it popping up, but I am curious on world effects... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 04:06:41
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Well, to quote myself...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 04:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, to quote myself...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
Wooly's got it down. I'd quote my own thoughts too, from a previous scroll, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 05:55:56
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I think WotC is saving Selunarra for the time when the Shadovar have to be eliminated, that is, when people grow tired of them...Who else is better to vanquish the Netherese than their fellow Netherese?!
I've been wondering, during the time of Old Netheril, (Karsus's time), who's the archwizard who ruled Selunarra, and does he/she still rule it up to now?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 08:03:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, to quote myself...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible.
Wooly, that's perfect. If and when I incorporate the Shadovar in my games, I'll be using this to support it. |
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 16:02:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think WotC is saving Selunarra for the time when the Shadovar have to be eliminated, that is, when people grow tired of them...Who else is better to vanquish the Netherese than their fellow Netherese?!
I've been wondering, during the time of Old Netheril, (Karsus's time), who's the archwizard who ruled Selunarra, and does he/she still rule it up to now?
Well, the boxed set mentions a couple of rulers, but the one who ruled when Netheril fell isn't mentioned. We know the previous ruler found out Karsus was up to something and went to confront him about it, and then she disappeared. It's not mentioned who her replacement was. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 16:29:17
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If I brought it back at all, it probably wouldn't be in the Heartlands. Perhaps in Kara-Tur or Maztica... someplace far-afield.
But still following the pattern Wooly outlined, albeit more surreptitiously. I'd have them sending in hit-squads to specific locales and destroying 'nests of evil', that sort of thing.
If it were 4e, I would bring them back into the massive bay that used to be Halruaa - rebuild that nation using those guys.
Of course, having them appear over Thay could be a real blast. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2010 16:29:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 06:01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If I brought it back at all, it probably wouldn't be in the Heartlands. Perhaps in Kara-Tur or Maztica... someplace far-afield.
Of course, having them appear over Thay could be a real blast.
Agreed! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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What if -- Selunnarra returned to the Realms?
