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 What if -- Selunnarra returned to the Realms?
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Ardashir
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Posted - 22 Sep 2008 :  18:25:53  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm just wondering here -- there was a plot seed in Lost Empires of Faerun in which the players could wind up bringing the lost Netherese floating city of Selunnarra back to Faerun. Basically, a city full of aasimar trained in Selunite and Netherese magic, who are violently opposed to the Shadovar of Thultanthar. And who, I would imagine, can match them in power.

Just how would that effect the balance of power in a pre-Spellplague Realms, if such a powerful group of 'good guys' showed up to face off with the Shades?

Where would the people of Selunnarra go with their flying city, anyway? I get the idea that they'd want to be close enough to the Shades to keep an eye on them, but not so close as to make counterattacks a constant worry. I was thinking, they might wind up floating over Sembia and Cormyr?

Any help or advice on how to handle something like this would be vastly appreciated. Thanks, and may the silvery light of nSelune guide you in all darkness.

Uzzy
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Posted - 22 Sep 2008 :  18:54:53  Show Profile  Visit Uzzy's Homepage Send Uzzy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If they were clever, they'd 'jump' back into the Anauroch, deposit all their warriors in one go, right next to the City of Shade, then jump the city back to safety while the hordes of aasimar Paladins and Wizards slaughter the Shades. *Has visions of the Adama Manoeuvre*

In all serious though, I think if Selunnarra did reappear in the Realms, it'd have led to a decline in Shade influence, given that practically every organisation and country in the region disliked them, and a mass of holy warriors to crack down on anything that looks even remotely like Shade activity. I'd place it just on the southern tip of the Anauroch, close to Evereska. It'd be a fun epic campaign, though it'd be closer to a Crusade style game then one of intrigue and politics.
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Hawkins
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Posted - 22 Sep 2008 :  19:30:23  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've played with the idea of using this for an adventure.

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The Sage
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  01:24:54  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Selūnarra remains more interesting as a *potential* factor, rather than something that has already been used. In other words, keep Selūnarra firmly in the Gates of the Moon.

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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Sep 2008 01:25:23
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The Sage
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  01:26:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though,

Opus/Selūnarra existed as a Netherese survivor city plot-hook before 3e, it was just the motivation and possibility of returning to Faerun that was introduced by the "Return of the Archwizards" and Lost Empires of Faerūn. The idea of a surviving Netherese enclave that owed its alleigance to Selūne isnt something the designers just pulled out of their hats. The Shades are trying to "rebuild" a new Netheril, but with themselves as its masters. They are kidnapping netherese descendants, or their apprentices, and using them for their own purposes. If someone like Telemont is trying to rebuild Netheril for himself, then it is going to attract the attention or even the opposition of other Netherese survivors and enclaves that evaded the fall. Given the fact that he was branded a heretic and wasnt very popular in his day, and given his closeness to Karsus, then I imagine any Netherese survivors would not be enthused at the idea of Shadow seizing Anarouch for himself, and in the case of Selunarra they are perfectly poised to see that doesnt happen.

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Ranak
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  04:04:59  Show Profile  Visit Ranak's Homepage Send Ranak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my game I would not have Selūnarra return, just because I am tired, thematically, of ancient civilizations that somehow survived cataclysm only to return.

Too many ancient cities returned in 3ed - Shade, Myrietar, and Imaskar. Similar in theme but not technically returned cities include the return of the Fey'ri, Star Elves and Serpent Kindgoms.

Were I to include Selūnarra in my game, I would perhaps introduce some ancient descendants, or maybe extra-terrestrials that return on Spell Jamming "generation ships", tens of generations removed from their ancient city that disappeared into the stars.

The idea of Selūnarra popping back into existence like Shade wouldn't be how I would handle it.


quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Though,

Opus/Selūnarra existed as a Netherese survivor city plot-hook before 3e, it was just the motivation and possibility of returning to Faerun that was introduced by the "Return of the Archwizards" and Lost Empires of Faerūn. The idea of a surviving Netherese enclave that owed its alleigance to Selūne isnt something the designers just pulled out of their hats. The Shades are trying to "rebuild" a new Netheril, but with themselves as its masters. They are kidnapping netherese descendants, or their apprentices, and using them for their own purposes. If someone like Telemont is trying to rebuild Netheril for himself, then it is going to attract the attention or even the opposition of other Netherese survivors and enclaves that evaded the fall. Given the fact that he was branded a heretic and wasnt very popular in his day, and given his closeness to Karsus, then I imagine any Netherese survivors would not be enthused at the idea of Shadow seizing Anarouch for himself, and in the case of Selunarra they are perfectly poised to see that doesnt happen.


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Purple Dragon Knight
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  04:51:55  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sage, Ranak: this is somehow stirring me old loins here... I've put my Epic (level 25) campaign on hold for the last two months, and asked my players to create new 4th level PCs so I can run them through Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroc... This Selunnarra business would be a good way to unite these new (4th level) PCs with their old (25th level) PCs, once the 4th level guys reach Epic or near-Epic levels... [puts thinking cap back on... ]
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The Red Walker
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  14:05:57  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would not mind seeing a "counterweight" to the shades return, it would be a good chance for a large scale war with some huge battles. And as we all know you can't win the large battle without winning some small scale behind the scenes stuff perfectly suited for a small party!

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  15:29:57  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I think Selūnarra remains more interesting as a *potential* factor, rather than something that has already been used. In other words, keep Selūnarra firmly in the Gates of the Moon.



I agree--I like "hidden cities" to remain hidden, to be honest. Or at least, when these old cities are brought back, it should be done sparingly.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  15:46:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was disappointed, when I flipped thru the FRCG, to see that Selunnarra hadn't returned. I'll admit I was as sick as the next guy of 3E's parade of returns, but the thing is, they did, in 3E, make a point of saying "Okay, here's another floating city that can and has good reason to oppose Shade." And then, with 4E's thing of making Shar and Shadows be the source of all evil, the possibility of an excellent rival/foil for them was ignored. With everything the Shades had done, it seems only reasonable to me that someone should have discovered and brought back Selunnarra, and yet, the plot point was ignored.

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The Red Walker
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  15:51:56  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I think Selūnarra remains more interesting as a *potential* factor, rather than something that has already been used. In other words, keep Selūnarra firmly in the Gates of the Moon.



I agree--I like "hidden cities" to remain hidden, to be honest. Or at least, when these old cities are brought back, it should be done sparingly.



What I think would have been even better, would to have had a city become hidden as a spellplague aftereffect.

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Chosen of Moradin
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  16:00:12  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMO, Selunarra stay hidden to be used as a DM tool: if someone want to tell this story, he/she/it only have to use it, without stumble upon the lore of something else (like the return of Myth Drannor, Imaskar, Star Elves, etc.)

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The Sage
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  16:24:02  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

With everything the Shades had done, it seems only reasonable to me that someone should have discovered and brought back Selunnarra, and yet, the plot point was ignored.
I wouldn't say that it's been ignored, at least not completely. The FRCG is only meant as an introduction to the post-Spellplague Realms after all. There may still be room for a future designer or two to explore the possibilities offered by the return of Opus to the Realms.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  16:47:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

With everything the Shades had done, it seems only reasonable to me that someone should have discovered and brought back Selunnarra, and yet, the plot point was ignored.
I wouldn't say that it's been ignored, at least not completely. The FRCG is only meant as an introduction to the post-Spellplague Realms after all. There may still be room for a future designer or two to explore the possibilities offered by the return of Opus to the Realms.



Well, my point is that I would have expected them to return before now -- not to be sitting back, letting the Shades run rampant while waiting for someone to summon them back.

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The Red Walker
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  16:52:02  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

With everything the Shades had done, it seems only reasonable to me that someone should have discovered and brought back Selunnarra, and yet, the plot point was ignored.
I wouldn't say that it's been ignored, at least not completely. The FRCG is only meant as an introduction to the post-Spellplague Realms after all. There may still be room for a future designer or two to explore the possibilities offered by the return of Opus to the Realms.




Well, my point is that I would have expected them to return before now -- not to be sitting back, letting the Shades run rampant while waiting for someone to summon them back.



Mayhaps they cannot "come back" without a little help?

edit: fixed quote

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 23 Sep 2008 17:04:06
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The Sage
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  17:01:43  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Well, my point is that I would have expected them to return before now -- not to be sitting back, letting the Shades run rampant while waiting for someone to summon them back.
Aye. But maybe there's a reason for them holding back. I don't know what that reason could be, or even if there should actually be one. Perhaps they're simply waiting for the Shades to over-extend themselves, and then insert Opus back into the Realms at a time when the Shades may not be able to properly defend all of their holdings.

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Christopher_Rowe
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  17:05:08  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

There may still be room for a future designer or two to explore the possibilities offered by the return of Opus to the Realms.


Ahem.


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sfdragon
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  17:53:50  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

There may still be room for a future designer or two to explore the possibilities offered by the return of Opus to the Realms.


Ahem.





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Ardashir
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  18:38:18  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I was disappointed, when I flipped thru the FRCG, to see that Selunnarra hadn't returned. I'll admit I was as sick as the next guy of 3E's parade of returns, but the thing is, they did, in 3E, make a point of saying "Okay, here's another floating city that can and has good reason to oppose Shade." And then, with 4E's thing of making Shar and Shadows be the source of all evil, the possibility of an excellent rival/foil for them was ignored. With everything the Shades had done, it seems only reasonable to me that someone should have discovered and brought back Selunnarra, and yet, the plot point was ignored.



Which is pretty much what I was thinking. I figured that at least a few of the city's more adventurous citizens might be sneaking through to Faerun simply to mess with the Shades.
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Ardashir
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  18:39:59  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And while I'm talking about armies of Selunite aasimar descending on Faerun -- isn't that what happened with the population of one Untheric city in their war with Mulhorand? Selune took them to her realm, transformed them, trained them in magic and war-skills, and then returned them to their home to battle it out with the Mulhorandi armies?
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Hawkins
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  18:44:51  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For this to work in 4e, first they need to transfer the aasimar as a playable race. I remember Rich hinting that when they did that they would receive some sort of name change.

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Christopher_Rowe
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  19:02:20  Show Profile  Visit Christopher_Rowe's Homepage Send Christopher_Rowe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

For this to work in 4e, first they need to transfer the aasimar as a playable race. I remember Rich hinting that when they did that they would receive some sort of name change.



Yeah, they're gonna be Devas, right?

(And c'mon! Opus and the Realms! That took me like fifteen minutes!)

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Ranak
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  19:06:57  Show Profile  Visit Ranak's Homepage Send Ranak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey I wasn't saying that it doesn't make a great plot thread, I just think a straight "Return of Selunnarra" would not be my cup of tea.

As I said, if I were to have them return, it would be in an obtuse way - scattered survivors on spell jamming ships, or a chosen few who make it through the astral sea and find themselves in a world transformed (at least compared to when they left).

Or... in an Epic level twist... Selunarra is trapped and in terrible danger (perhaps of Shar's making, maybe some elder evil, or both), and the PCs mount a rescue mission into the great wheel to bring back the few survivors, driven by signs and portents from Selune of course.

Maybe the armies of Selunarra are busy fighting a horrible foe in the great beyond that is an even worse threat to Faerun than Shar.

LOTS of possibilities here.


quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Sage, Ranak: this is somehow stirring me old loins here... I've put my Epic (level 25) campaign on hold for the last two months, and asked my players to create new 4th level PCs so I can run them through Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroc... This Selunnarra business would be a good way to unite these new (4th level) PCs with their old (25th level) PCs, once the 4th level guys reach Epic or near-Epic levels... [puts thinking cap back on... ]

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Purple Dragon Knight
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Canada
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  21:08:16  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak

Hey I wasn't saying that it doesn't make a great plot thread, I just think a straight "Return of Selunnarra" would not be my cup of tea.

As I said, if I were to have them return, it would be in an obtuse way - scattered survivors on spell jamming ships, or a chosen few who make it through the astral sea and find themselves in a world transformed (at least compared to when they left).

Or... in an Epic level twist... Selunarra is trapped and in terrible danger (perhaps of Shar's making, maybe some elder evil, or both), and the PCs mount a rescue mission into the great wheel to bring back the few survivors, driven by signs and portents from Selune of course.

Maybe the armies of Selunarra are busy fighting a horrible foe in the great beyond that is an even worse threat to Faerun than Shar.

LOTS of possibilities here.


quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Sage, Ranak: this is somehow stirring me old loins here... I've put my Epic (level 25) campaign on hold for the last two months, and asked my players to create new 4th level PCs so I can run them through Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroc... This Selunnarra business would be a good way to unite these new (4th level) PCs with their old (25th level) PCs, once the 4th level guys reach Epic or near-Epic levels... [puts thinking cap back on... ]



Maybe they're fighting the Nilshai... so, kill the Nilshai, free the Selunarrans, have them whack Shade out of orbit, save the world?
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Foxhelm
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  23:34:02  Show Profile  Click to see Foxhelm's MSN Messenger address  Send Foxhelm a Yahoo! Message Send Foxhelm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have packed my stuff for the move... but in Lost Empires of Faerun the return of Selunarra or Opus required a ritual involving a magical spell key which was in a certain half-drow of Waterdeep's hands in a Selune friendly in and the need to go to a oasis sacred to Eldath in Anaroch (within Nethril terrorties).

However, the return of the city does not need to be the beginning of an adventure. It could come at the end. Imagine a group of heroes from Cormyr/Myth Drannor and the Dalelands/ Luruar and Evereska being sent on mission from a seemingly beninely insane patron. Mission which over a period of time leads them to fight shades, and eventually discovers traces of a second enclave which would be oppose to the shades.

Part of the Adventure could involve finding the right portal/ritual to the city. Selunarra could get involved by sending troops and spellcasters, perhaps to teach the techniques of old Netheril. This could lead to a mission to steal the Nether scrolls from Shade (not clear of the location after the last adventure series) or locating an undiscovered copy of the scrolls. Perhaps finding the serpent Terraseer for help. Then either transporting the city returning ritual from the lands of Netheril to a friendlier location or having to cast the spell in the middle of a Netheril battlefield or both.

I can see this as an adventure beginning at Hero level and moving to Paragon or even Epic given the destiny you choose (The Choosen of Selune or some of the more benine deities, Master Harpers from Dragon Sept 2008, Elven high Mage from Dragon 2008, Demigod, Archmage).

Thoughts?

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Icelander
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Posted - 23 Sep 2008 :  23:36:14  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Maybe they're fighting the Nilshai... so, kill the Nilshai, free the Selunarrans, have them whack Shade out of orbit, save the world?


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