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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 14:58:37
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Hello, fellow scribes.
I bring to all a question that started in a brazilian forum about the Realms:
The members are asking for the origins and the background of the monk class in Faerūn. In their viewpoint, that basic class is clearly full of oriental flavor and references, and they are arguing that there is no history or background telling about them in the Realms.
I have pointed the fact that the monks of the Realms are more religious oriented, devoted to the gods of the Realms, but all of my arguing are being refuted (basically, because of the weapons of the monks, and the "ki" ability).
So, I ask for the sages of the keep: there is some tome that explain and "merge" the "basic" monk with the monk of the Realms as we known? Someone could point me some reference? Ed of the Greenwood have said something about this? 
Thanks in advance.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Hello, fellow scribes.
I bring to all a question that started in a brazilian forum about the Realms:
The members are asking for the origins and the background of the monk class in Faerūn. In their viewpoint, that basic class is clearly full of oriental flavor and references, and they are arguing that there is no history or background telling about them in the Realms.
I have pointed the fact that the monks of the Realms are more religious oriented, devoted to the gods of the Realms, but all of my arguing are being refuted (basically, because of the weapons of the monks, and the "ki" ability).
So, I ask for the sages of the keep: there is some tome that explain and "merge" the "basic" monk with the monk of the Realms as we known? Someone could point me some reference? Ed of the Greenwood have said something about this?
Thanks in advance.
The "Kung Fu" monk has been in the Realms since 1ed
Dancia (From the Caddley novles), Kane (From the H series of FR modules) and there where a couple of Monks in the Western Lands all appear in 1ed material |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:09:01
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Personally, I won't allow a monk as a character class in the Realms, should one of my players ever ask to play one, unless he comes up with a good explanation.
The original monk class was in AD&D 1st edition, but it was removed in 2nd for good reason. It did not fit the medieval-/western-fantasy setting, and rightly so.
I think that since the Realms became a AD&D campaign setting before 2nd edition the monk class was basically integrated because the rules said so.
Maybe there is a cultural explanation for it, the jordain of Halruaa are martial artists, and it is explained why. Maybe the jordain tradition was the root for all the monk orders in the rest of Faerūn. Maybe the Netherese found out about the martial artists during their travels across the world and picked up the occasional black belt fighter to train bodyguards and such.
This would be the only explanation I have for monks in the Realms. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The "Kung Fu" monk has been in the Realms since 1ed
Dancia (From the Caddley novles), Kane (From the H series of FR modules) and there where a couple of Monks in the Western Lands all appear in 1ed material
Thanks, Dargoth. These "kung fu monks" are from Kara Tur? Or there is some other misterious origin about them?  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Personally, I won't allow a monk as a character class in the Realms, should one of my players ever ask to play one, unless he comes up with a good explanation.
The original monk class was in AD&D 1st edition, but it was removed in 2nd for good reason. It did not fit the medieval-/western-fantasy setting, and rightly so.
I think that since the Realms became a AD&D campaign setting before 2nd edition the monk class was basically integrated because the rules said so.
Maybe there is a cultural explanation for it, the jordain of Halruaa are martial artists, and it is explained why. Maybe the jordain tradition was the root for all the monk orders in the rest of Faerūn. Maybe the Netherese found out about the martial artists during their travels across the world and picked up the occasional black belt fighter to train bodyguards and such.
This would be the only explanation I have for monks in the Realms.
Good ideas, Mace. That is exactly the point with the members of the brazilian forum: Why (speaking of history and background) all this guys have learned martial styles of fight?
Thanks for remember me of the Jordain, I almost forgotten them.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:19:30
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The original AD&D fighting-monk was, yes, directly inspired by the TV series Kung Fu.
Monks are mentioned in the Old Grey Box; there's a fighting-monk class in Faiths & Avatars and details of such orders serving certain deities. Since monks weren't trendy in the rules at the time, this can't be written off as a rules artefact, and I think it's reasonable: martial arts, ascetism and meditation aren't exclusively Eastern in our world and needn't be in Faerūn. Still, it's a rare vocation compared to priests and normal monks.
The new monk orders cropping up all over the place in the 2001 FRCS, on the other hand, are rules artefacts, and overdone ones, or I'm a vole. |
Edited by - Faraer on 24 Aug 2006 15:23:01 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:20:59
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If I was writing the origins of the Monk class in Faerun Id say they came out of the Psionic kingdom of Jhaamdath. Id also say that in the realms that Psionics are past on through bloodlines ie you cant just become Psionicist. When Jhaamdath was destroyed most of the psionic bloodlines died out (This accounts for why there are so few Psionic wielders in the realms). However Jhaamdaths psionic traditions where spread by the Jhaamdathan/Chondathan refugees and while fewer and fewer had the psionic abilties of the orginally Jhaamdath Psionicists the old psioncists ideas where reborn as monks
The Monk class like psioncists has alot of "Mind over matter" abilities |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:27:44
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The old grey box was written with the old rules in mind.
The traditional "kung fu"-style martial artist is, historically speaking, more at home in asia. European marial arts, if I understand the wiki entry correctly, focused on boxing and wrestling as a sport and on the effective elimination of a foe with anything that was at hand.
A European monk was basically a dude living in a monastery planting whatever and brewing beer...or some other such clichée activity. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:33:56
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| Monks of Oghma and Deneir could probably be mistaken for Catholic monks when it comes to their day to day activities |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 15:36:26
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Related to the issue of monks in the Realms is one of the problems that I encountered when I was DM-ing for a Menzoberranzan-based PW, and trying to incorporate 3rd Edn classes with the 2nd Edn Boxed set that we used as the main canon source. (Although, monks are 1st Edn they were not in the Boxed Set.) In the end, I ended up writing a rather large Player's Guide. This is what I came up with to accomodate monks in the Menzo' setting:
The wizards of Sorcere have always disliked their inability to wear armour because of the obvious vulnerability this causes. Some of the Masters of Sorcere comment on the way that metals can influence and direct the Weave and of course there are the somatic complications as well. The next best thing to wearing armour is having bodyguards to protect you. However, as a result of the rivalry between the three schools, Melee Magthere is as unlikely to supply the Masters with bodyguards as Sorcere is to declaring such a weakness. Yet it is common knowledge that wizards are vulnerable to melee and ranged weapons and the Masters of Sorcere have long strove to find an adequate solution to supplement their arcane solutions.
Shortly after the Time of Troubles, Sorcere opened its doors to an unique individual who later gained the epithet, the Silent Master. This title came about as a consequence of him not giving lectures and also for his taciturn demeanour. The students and junior Masters of Sorcere are as unaware of him, as they are of the many servants also found in Sorcere. Some of these servants, however, are monks and the Silent Master is their teacher.
The Spellguard of Sorcere is a unique monastic order; existing inside Sorcere they are to some extent protected from the chaotic nature of Menzoberranzan. Their commitment to a lawful code is in some ways echoed by the structured manner in which a wizard learns his spells. They seek to master a force they call ki, which the Silent Master claims is associated with the Weave. The Silent Master designed the following code, which all Spellguard monks must obey:
* A Spellguard monk must fight with a non-metal weapon, where possible.
* A Spellguard monk is forbidden to wear armour.
* A Spellguard monk may not harm a Sorcere Master, or, through inaction, allow a Sorcere Master to come to harm
* A Spellguard monk must obey the commands of a Master of Sorcere except where such orders would result in harm to another Master.
* A Spellguard monk must seek perfection of self and mastery of ki.
* A Spellguard monk can only speak of the Spellguard to another known Spellguard monk or a Sorcere Master.
The laws against using metal weapons or wearing armour not only reduces possible Weave distortions but helps Spellguard monks maintain their servant disguises. Furthermore, a Spellguard monk wearing a hooded robe and carrying a quarterstaff looks much the same as any other Sorcere inhabitant.
It should, again, be noted that very few Menzoberranyr associated with Sorcere know about the Spellguard monks and none of the Menzoberranyr outside Sorcere are aware of them. Only the Sorcere Masters are aware of them and they rarely speak of the matter among themselves. The Spellguard monks are a secret order and work avidly to stay that way.
I wrote the Spellguard's Code in such a way that one monk could promote her/himself at another monk's expense in accordance to drow custom. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 24 Aug 2006 15:42:35 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 16:02:19
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... well ... nice thing Kiaran ... gave me a reasonable idea to why how monks exist in Faerūn ...
the basic idea is simply to change everything about Ki with Weave (where evil proberly could be lured into using the Shadow Weave though none have been known to exist yet)
The least known users of arcane powers is the one that doesn't produce anything unnatural, in fact they are unable to even use what sages commonly define as spells. The way they use the weave is by getting in balance with it, though meditation and ascetism, to gain supernatural strength when fighting. The back of the coin is that, it is hindered by metal the same way as arcane magic, they usually use their fists, legs or small wooden weapons to get full useage of their balance with the weave. They themselves are known as Monks eventhough it is a rarly known fact that their powers is improved by the weave. |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
Edited by - Sian on 24 Aug 2006 16:20:35 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 16:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
the basic idea is simply to change everything about Ki with Weave (where evil proberly could be lured into using the Shadow Weave though none have been known to exist yet)
My approach with the new classes introduced by 3rd edn was to tie them into the Time of the Troubles. That isn't 'Realms-approved' but it worked very well for me and my players. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 17:38:46
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| I must admit that I am with Mace on this one; I have trouble with monks in my FR. I have thought of using the cloistered cleric by Lenard Lakofka from an old Dragon magazine (I forget which number)to have non-combat priests in the convents already named in products. |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 17:53:05
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| I would think it would depend on where they are located in Faerun as to weather they have monks in their orders or not. I mean i would have monks in say Chesstnea, due to its location near the far east, but i would not have them in say Silverymoon, or the Dales i mean those locals just don't have the feel to them. Unless monks migrated there and build monestaries, aren't the order of the Yellow Rose monks? and they are in the Darnaa (okay slaughtered that spelling). |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of oneās mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 18:12:20
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Personally, I like having monks in Faerun precisely because it isn't directly analagous to the "real world." Also, martial arts aren't entirely a "Far East" thing. As far as picturing Faerunian development of monk orders without going to the "they came from Kara Tur" well, I think the way Elaine wrote about the Jordain order, for example, is a good way to view some of the monk orders in Faerun.
On the other hand, yes, the term monk in Faerun would be used for monastic religeous characters, not just martial arts type monks, as I imagine, for example, the monks of Candlekeep are essentially experts or "cloistered clerics" in game terms.
I understand and respect that monks might not appeal to everyone, but for the reasons I summed up above, their presense really doesn't bother me that much.
Oh, and for another take on the whole martial arts character class thing look at the Battledancer from the Dragon Compendium Volume One. |
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Hunter In Darkness
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 18:30:48
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| i myself als use jhaamdath as the starting point of monks i also chang the weapons about i do like the weave instead of ki humm thats a maybe but u must recall the realms is not earth so monks need not be limited to the far east just find a comfy realms home for it the realms history is rich and long theres room for much and as a DM or a player its up to u to let yourself explore the realms rich past |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 18:41:43
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| To me it is more a problem of the gods and how much I can see them as having monkish orders more than a case of eastern influence. I can see mystics, oracles and cloistered clerics of the gods and I could see some sort of philosophical fighting order existing, but the combination does not sit right with me. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Personally, I like having monks in Faerun precisely because it isn't directly analagous to the "real world." Also, martial arts aren't entirely a "Far East" thing.
I agree. There were and are lots of Western martial arts, ranging from grappling styles like German kampfringen and Italian arte' dell abbracciare to striking styles like old boxing (before the Marquis of Queensbury), French savate, and Basque zipota. Check some of those names on wikipedia for more info than I could ever list here. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 03:36:43
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| I prefer the Faiths and Avatars type Monk more. It's more similar to the type of Monk you'd find in Faerun, without any of the blatant Eastern flavor. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 13:24:27
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Thanks for the good replies, friends. I fully agree with KnightErrantJR, and that is the point that I“m trying to show to the others, here. I“m seeing that someone of the members of our brazilian forum here are disagreeing only by the "pleasure of disagree"  (they don“t like of the class, and don“t listen to any explanation that is given).
I, personally speaking, think that the "monk issue" fall in the point that Ed always show to us: Faerūn is not the Europe, and don“t have any obligation to behave like Europe. So, in my campaigns, I don“t see the problem of the monk seek for enlightenment like "our ocidental monks", and master martial arts like "our oriental monks". |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
Edited by - Chosen of Moradin on 25 Aug 2006 13:25:20 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 13:34:51
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Monkesque martial arts would fit into a society/belief-system where weapons as a rule are rejected but people have to defend themselves with orcs and whatnot living around the corner.
It should be taught by faiths/heresies as the only option, not an alternative.
What I'm trying to say is: if Oghma's tenets abhor weapons as a matter of principle, the clergy should only have monks. If a heresy was to arise to force knowledge into people, they might want to use weapons, because to their logic you can only fight fire with fire.
That would be a more rational explanation to the issue. I don't think (martial artist) monks and clerics/paladins should exist in the same religious environment. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lord Teclis
Acolyte
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 09:35:09
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| Does anyone have Kane's stats as I still think that he is the coolest monk in FR. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 01:52:02
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| I agree with KEJR, I like having the options of monks. I just see there being fewer monks than other classes, but there will always be more fighters, clerics and rogues about than there will be paladins or barbarians, that's just the way it is. This isn't really a problem for players, PCs are often the exception rather than the norm. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 02:03:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The "Kung Fu" monk has been in the Realms since 1ed
Dancia (From the Caddley novles), Kane (From the H series of FR modules) and there where a couple of Monks in the Western Lands all appear in 1ed material
Thanks, Dargoth. These "kung fu monks" are from Kara Tur? Or there is some other misterious origin about them?
Danica was not from Kara-Tur. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 20:20:59
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Inititially, I hated the idea of the monk returning to 3E, but it has grown on me after a created some Realms-lore for the monk, and made it my own.
In my campaign, martial arts are a relic of a fallen civilization (not unlike Netherese magic items), a sort of oral history passed down through the generations.
The reason that monastic orders are associated with deities and temples in my game is that a couple of thousand years ago, these wandering artists would have been so disenfranchised from society that they sought refuge among clergy-men (who are accustomed to handing out charity). Eventually, these practioners would have been converted to the faith that protected them, but would have retained their martial skills, and continued to pass them down.
Since different individuals were adopted by different faiths, the Martial Arts of different faiths have different lineages and so function differently.
In all cases, I force monks in my game to pursue the Sacred Fist Prc because I view the monastic training as interwoven with the more orthodox teachings of the faith.
To gain levels higher than 10 in Monk, they must find a monk that has allready surpassed that level to train them (building up the master/pupil tradition) or uncover ancient training documents.
Monk powers are looked upon much as Grand Moff Tarkin looked upon the Jedi (dead religion, superstition), and it is not a well respected path by those outside of organized religion (and by some within). Certainly, there are no governments that sponsor "Monk Regiments."
Comments? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 20:28:36
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I liked where you were going with the ancient society and the being taken in by clerics thing . . . that was cool, but I don't know about people not having any respect for them. I just think that anyone with that level of skill or dicipline would have to generate respect.
Using your set up though, I was thinking that perhaps the Old Order is more in keeping with the original "monk" idea, that they were not associated with any religion but may have taught a perfection of body kind of idea, but other people in the society scattered when it fell and it played out much as you mentioned.
Then again, given that the monk class is represented in Kara-Tur as well, perhaps this civilization was REALLY ancient and based more in the Hordelands, and drifted in opposite directions . . .
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 21:35:40
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Certainly, wisdom and skill are always respected. I did not mean to infer that they were outcasts or something. Rather, its much like martial arts are viewed today "Thats a very nice hobby, and I'm certain that you're much healthier for doing it, but when you get serious about self defense, buy a gun and visit a target range."
Its not an attitude thats very consistent with the capabilities of a monk, but it creates a basis of reasoning that explains why Kung-Fu is not as popular (or prevalent) as Sword-Fu. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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FR_Junkie
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 22:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
To gain levels higher than 10 in Monk, they must find a monk that has allready surpassed that level to train them (building up the master/pupil tradition) or uncover ancient training documents.
the only comments I have are if one cannot gain levels higher than 10 unless they find a monk who has already surpassed that level, who taught the monk they eventually wind up finding?
someone always has to be able to teach himself or no one advances past level 10 (short of time travelling). |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 04:42:10
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Chosen, if I can complete it in time, look for a Candlekeep Compendium article on an order of dwarven monks early to the middle of next year.
In general, monks need to have some explanation of how they acquired their hand-to-hand combat techniques. We equate this h-t-h fighting with martial arts and Shaolin type monks. Hong Kong action flicks or karate from Japan is, to us, martial arts. However, what would have happened to boxing if it had become a zen-like sport for personal defense taught to peasants and those seeking enlightenment in our past?
With the varied races of the Realms, why do monks necessarily have to use -our- Eastern style martial arts, and not some other kind.
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"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 08:24:37
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
Chosen, if I can complete it in time, look for a Candlekeep Compendium article on an order of dwarven monks early to the middle of next year.
In general, monks need to have some explanation of how they acquired their hand-to-hand combat techniques. We equate this h-t-h fighting with martial arts and Shaolin type monks. Hong Kong action flicks or karate from Japan is, to us, martial arts. However, what would have happened to boxing if it had become a zen-like sport for personal defense taught to peasants and those seeking enlightenment in our past?
With the varied races of the Realms, why do monks necessarily have to use -our- Eastern style martial arts, and not some other kind.
Well met
That's a very good point you've raised, hammer of Moradin. I'd never actually thought of that myself either and always simply accepted the stereotypical monk fighting style.
Needless to say, i'll certainly look forward to thy forthcoming article  |
Alaundo
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Monks in Faerūn
