| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 14:58:37
Hello, fellow scribes.
I bring to all a question that started in a brazilian forum about the Realms:
The members are asking for the origins and the background of the monk class in Faerūn. In their viewpoint, that basic class is clearly full of oriental flavor and references, and they are arguing that there is no history or background telling about them in the Realms.
I have pointed the fact that the monks of the Realms are more religious oriented, devoted to the gods of the Realms, but all of my arguing are being refuted (basically, because of the weapons of the monks, and the "ki" ability).
So, I ask for the sages of the keep: there is some tome that explain and "merge" the "basic" monk with the monk of the Realms as we known? Someone could point me some reference? Ed of the Greenwood have said something about this? 
Thanks in advance. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 19:55:04
There was also a "Class" article in Dragon Magazine about European monks which was very, very well done.
|
| Kou_Ayshane |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 04:33:17
... I always just figured (Mostly inspired by the scenes of Danica's study in the Edificant Library in TCQ.) that the introduction of martial arts (And therefore, monks.) in Faerun is mostly akin to the introduction of Eastern martial arts in the Western world, i.e. students (And to a much lesser extent, masters.) from the East coming over and teaching on the Western shores.
Now obviously it wouldn't become as commercialized as it has in our modern world, or as dangerous the original teachers in our world had to face, but given the faiths of the realms my best guess would be it was passed thru family lines (Father to son and so on.) after the family relocating to Faerun from Kara-Tur.
After some generations are born, they have melded their faith to the Faerunian pantheon and some of the more zealous create temples of learning devoted to their chosed Diety, as well as those that have chronicaled their training in writ to pass on to generations to come. (I.E. The tome that Danica finds in the EL.) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 19:10:54
I continue with book suggestions:
Personally, I own a copy of The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, by Sydney Anglo, which contains a very informative plate on pp. 195-196. It provides contemporary illustrations of "the ten ways ... for an unarmed man to deal with a dagger attack." Dating from 1674, it depicts wrist locks, a shoulder throw, kicks indistinguishable from those used in karate, and -- of course, as number one! -- a plain old straight punch to the face (a technique used in almost every martial art around the world and throughout history).
Finally, let it not be forgotten that Wizards of the Coast have published a novel of the "iconic" monk, Ember (of PHB fame), Oath of Nerull, by "T.H. Lain." Lest anyone be dismayed at the thought of reading a "T.H. Lain" book, know that "T.H. Lain" is just a "house" pseudonym used by WotC for their "iconic character" series of novels -- Bruce R. Cordell wrote this one. I just got it and haven't read it yet, but it's safe to say that it is probably one of the best insights into how Wizards of the Coast thinks that monks ought to be integrated into a fantasy campaign with more typical medieval-flavored characters, Nebbin, Hennet, etc. (Nebin's last name, we also learn, is "Raulnor").
|
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 20:23:53
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Monks were big in Europe in the Middle Ages. As inspirations I think of The Name of the Rose and the Cadfael episodes of Mystery for you PBS watchers. Then of course there was Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's band of merry men; he was always portrayed as kind of a brawler.
Now, true, fighting prowess was not something you generally associate with European monks, but in a fantasy world of secluded monasteries beset by orcs and evil warlords and dragons, it is only natural that monks would need to develop some skills to defend themselves.
IIRC, Friar Tuck always seemed to use a beer stein as his monk weapon. I am surprised that D&D monks have not developed some other unique fighting styles. I would love to see dwarven monks who used battle steins and manouevers such as blinding spray, flaming spit take and belch of thunder.  Even if they just used some style based on hammers, I think dwarven monks could be very, very cool. 
One might wish to consult Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World (3000 B.C. to 500 A.D.): Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Simon Anglim, Rob S. Rice, Phyllis Jestice, and Scott Rusch, Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics by Matthew Bennett, Jim Bradbury, Kelly DeVries, Iain Dickie, Phyllis Jestice, and Fighting Techniques of the Early Modern World: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Christer Jorgensen, Matthew Bennett, Michael Pavkovic , Rob S. Rice, Frederick S. Schneid, Chris Scott, or simply run a search on Amazon.com for "Medieval fighting" to find quite a few books (including translations of genuine medieval fighting manuals).
European soldiers didn't just swing swords, they kicked, punched, bashed their opponent's with their sword pommels, tripped them with polearms, etc. -- all "monkish" techniques.
I am surprised that no one has brought up (or did I miss it?) the Shou Disciple class from Unapproachable East. They use "Oriental" fighting techniques as lay martial artists, not as monks. They are also hopelessly outclassed in combat by Fighters with armor and swords or bows!
|
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 20:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Monks were big in Europe in the Middle Ages. As inspirations I think of The Name of the Rose and the Cadfael episodes of Mystery for you PBS watchers. Then of course there was Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's band of merry men; he was always portrayed as kind of a brawler.
Now, true, fighting prowess was not something you generally associate with European monks, but in a fantasy world of secluded monasteries beset by orcs and evil warlords and dragons, it is only natural that monks would need to develop some skills to defend themselves.
IIRC, Friar Tuck always seemed to use a beer stein as his monk weapon. I am surprised that D&D monks have not developed some other unique fighting styles. I would love to see dwarven monks who used battle steins and manouevers such as blinding spray, flaming spit take and belch of thunder. Even if they just used some style based on hammers, I think dwarven monks could be very, very cool.
One might wish to consult Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World (3000 B.C. to 500 A.D.): Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Simon Anglim, Rob S. Rice, Phyllis Jestice, and Scott Rusch, Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics by Matthew Bennett, Jim Bradbury, Kelly DeVries, Iain Dickie, Phyllis Jestice, and Fighting Techniques of the Early Modern World: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Christer Jorgensen, Matthew Bennett, Michael Pavkovic , Rob S. Rice, Frederick S. Schneid, Chris Scott.
|
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 19:46:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Monks of Oghma and Deneir could probably be mistaken for Catholic monks when it comes to their day to day activities
D'accord, but let's make that medieval Catholic monks, shall we? There are still monkish orders in today's world, but most of them bear little resemblance to their medieval ancestors. To be even more specific, I would compare Ogmanites and Deneirath to Benedictine monks (think Name of the Rose), and Ilmateri monks would be comparable to Franciscans. I would compare Tyrian and Helmite monks to Dominicans (think: the "Holy Office," a.k.a. the Inquisition). There are several deities who might have Jesuitical-type monks, whose goal is to subborn the world through teaching that the dogma of their deity is the only correct dogma and all else is heresy or blasphemy.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 20:01:39
quote:
Originally posted by Walls
I am not exactly sure why so many contends Monks are a "Far East" thing? This isn't earth. Who says people didn't learn to kick and punch on their own. This is a planet with a long human (and demihuman) history. It would NOT be out of the question to have developed such studies. Hell... they developed magic.
Look at pyramids on earth. Are they a strictly Egyptian thing? Hardly. Parallel development exists in all facets of earth culture, why can't this overstep planes of existence?
Exactly.
I used to hate Monks when I first encountered them in 1e, but then I read the stuff about the Scarlet Brotherhood in Greyhawk and it all made sense.
Monks follow a TRADITION, a VERY disciplined tradition, and are always tied to some 'belief'. That belief does NOT have to be religious, but usually is. The belief could be in 'freedom' (like the Brazilian guys, who couldn't carry weapons), or as in the case of the Scarlet Brotherhood, they believe in racial purity. The Eldreth Veluuthra would be PERFECT candidates for an order based on that principle. As long as you have a strict code of conduct for an order, the rules can be based around ANY sort of dogma.
That being said, just about EVERY early group had types of martial arts. Amerinds practiced wrestling, the Norse had an art of catching an enemiy's weapons and throwing them back, the whirling Dervishes of the near east, the Celts had a fighting style where they threw spears with their FEET... you get the idea. Even our D&D barbarian has it's roots in the Berserker traditions of the norse - where every man belonged to a certain 'lodge' and had secret rites and rituals to help make them better fighters. They went into combat un-armored, and even chewed on a shield in order to help 'focus' their abilities (Ki?). Consider them the Chaotic equivalent to the Monk.
Don't let your predjudices taint how you you perceive D&D Monks, because you will be denying yourself a fun and enriching part of the game. Also, all of this talk of 'European' type monks - I still can't find Europe on any of MY FR maps.
The core Monks are just one type, and it would be nice to see an FR version similar to what they did over in GH. I will be looking forward to the article on Dwarven Monks - given the small spaces the Dwarves often must fight in, a dexterity-based un-armored style of fighting weaponless is a no-brainer.
Coming Next: Hin Jitzu! 
PS: Just came across an old reference to a hidden city of Monks somewhere north of Cormyr. It's considered a legend - but still..... |
| Chyron |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 09:31:59
Everyone has their own idea of high-fantasy and this has often led to some interesting discussions among my own gaming group. But lets face it, early D&D (and early Forgotten Realms) was strongly influenced by European folklore and Tolkien as major reference points.
Still fantasy is just that and some people can expand it to include everything from overly long-eared elves (Record of Lodoss War) to Laser Guns (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, or even Krull  ).
The 1st ed. Monk class was a based not just from myths of Shaolin, but other Chinese mythology and folklore (Journey to the West, Water Margin) and many of the Shaw films of Hong Kong Cinema.
While I have in fact met a few individuals who do indeed train at the now popular Shaolin Temples (the original was burned down) and go on tour with various shows, their actual abilities come no closer to those listed on the pages of 1st or 3rd edition books than say David Copperfield comes to falling in line with abilities of a Mage.
The D&D monk goes beyond simply a mere old soldier now seeking faith as we can see in characters such as Cadderly, William of Baskerville, or Friar Tuck. But there again priests in the shows featuring these characters were not casting healing spells or other divine magics either.
So I guess it really is just a question of how much of your disbelief can you (or your players) suspend. For me, in a place as diverse as the realms I have no problem with monastic orders (and their abilities) in the western realms. This is due in part because I can see magic as being as much a facilitator of exchange (i.e. globalization) as technology has been for us in our real world. 
|
| Zanan |
Posted - 02 Aug 2007 : 23:45:02
The F&A monks, i.e. low-powered clerics using "martial arts" (= not that many weapons), might well have worked. The new-style Shaolin versions don't fit as well though. The FRCS says that this tradition only appeared "recently" within the Western Realms, yet in Underdark we have a drow monastery led by a monk 18!
Well, if they are called weaponless-fighters and use psionics (like the soulknife) to power their abilities, fair enough. The Shaolin-based Asian style, well, not for me. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 02:57:56
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But I could really picture the Jordain as "monks" in the D&D sense...
Yes, they sort of were. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 02:40:42
But I could really picture the Jordain as "monks" in the D&D sense, even though they felt very naturally extrapolated from FR lore. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 01:59:18
Good points. It isn't written in stone that monks have to be orientalized, although they often seemed to be paired with "oriental" weapons. It's true that Toril does not equal earth, but it can be hard to stop thinking about Asia when monks are associated with the kama and ki. |
| Walls |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 18:20:05
I am not exactly sure why so many contends Monks are a "Far East" thing? This isn't earth. Who says people didn't learn to kick and punch on their own. This is a planet with a long human (and demihuman) history. It would NOT be out of the question to have developed such studies. Hell... they developed magic.
Look at pyramids on earth. Are they a strictly Egyptian thing? Hardly. Parallel development exists in all facets of earth culture, why can't this overstep planes of existence? |
| Fillow |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 17:05:18
Asia did not create monks.
Monks are not only on the model of our-world-Shaolin-ones  .
When I think to monks, I prefer think to Sean Connery in " the Name of the rose", to soldier-monks of medieval Europe,... not to asian-type of them. |
| reddfox321 |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 16:34:57
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
I am not mappy about the idea about monks in Ferun. I see monks as an asian type of priest, and dont understand whey they decided that they had to come to ferun? What will be next, a wujen mage guild in Comyr. And now we have a Thay enclave in Scardale ? Sorry i just dont understand whey they had to mix it all. In my game (I am DM), monks come from the Kara-tur region, not from hardlands, and The Red Wizards of Thay are from Thay!
As others have pointed out there are many different styles one can use in the monk class. They don't have to flip around or do high kicks. If you want to "westernize" the monk feel free. Turn them into a bar fighter or a body guard or an spy. Just keep in mind... Faerun is NOT Europe. |
| reddfox321 |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 16:28:17
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
I, personally speaking, think that the "monk issue" fall in the point that Ed always show to us: Faerūn is not the Europe, and don“t have any obligation to behave like Europe. 
And there it is... I never understood how elves, ogres and dragons could be tolerated but the monk class is WAAAAAAY out of place.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 00:31:28
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Perhaps some monks are quasi-priests...
I would tend to think this is sometimes how the Zealots of the Written Word are viewed by outsiders... since the monks often engage in some of the activities of the clergy of Deneir themselves.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 23:46:46
Interesting topic. Both of the monks I've created so far are religious (one follows Lathander, the other Eilistraee...oh yeah, and they are both petite elven ladies). But remember that there are different ways (and different degrees of being) "religious". Perhaps some monks are quasi-priests, and perhaps others aren't so overtly pious. |
| LucianBarasu |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 23:08:10
Been Dming since 1ed. Have seen the monks go "poofy" in 2ed and wondered why.
I asked my players opinions and they agreed that oriental/asian style monks
who are xerox copies of david carradine don't belong in western medieval /fantasy.
All agreed but one.
IF you go back, and I mean WAY back, Oghma had one particular portfolio... wrestling.
He was into athletics and wrestling, and I am sure all his monks didn't wear chain and steel and hide behind shields. I am sure you could work out a sect of Oghma clerics that fit into the MONK slot.
With 3.5 and that portoflio dissapearing off Oggie's list, Its logical why Faerun and Kara-Tur are seperated. If people want to play a monk in my campaign, they have to give me a DETAILED explanation why they got past the Horde and got over than "little thing" I like to call the Dragonwall. They don't fit in Faerun. But just because it looks like timing to have the Monk slip into FR from 1st ed. before 2nd ed came out, I think it is acvtually more a reason of Location, not edition printing.
As far as your question, You can merge the classic Kung fu Monk with an offshoot or "Faerunian Westernization" of Oghma's lost Portfolio. That's how I got around it.
i.e. Kelemvor's clergy has to have defenders of temples. And isn't it true, that monks call their "KI" life force, Life=opposit= death, Kelmvor's monks use KI to stop undead.. etc...
or...
Lathander's clergy sometimes practice the use of unarmed combat, and build up their "KI" which you can have give off useless kight when used, which emulated ability to "shannel the Morninglord" with KI..
or...
At very young age, selceted few cleric of [insert god here] are sent over or through to kara-Tur to study focusing their Ki for their god, their gift of prayer is manifested in gifts as their KI...
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 03:52:14
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
There is nothing in the rules to label them as priests or particularly religious.
I'm going to have to disagree with that part. Take a look through Faiths & Pantheons, and various other sourcebooks, like there's a drow monk order in Underdark that is connected to Lloth, and ya'll see that many of the monk orders are connected to a deity or deities.
But they are not by definition, deity-based. I agree that in most instances they are
Well, if they're acting under orders from a particular church itself, or just consider themselves as an "arm" of the church hierarchy, then it's likely most monk orders have some connection to either the deity or the church they serve. The Zealots of the Written Word, who are connected with the clergies of Deneir, may fall into this category.
Some orders may not even have a true connection to any particular church or clergy of the deity they worship, and instead consider themselves mortal expressions of their god's power in the Realms -- such as the Disciples of the Phoenix, who follow Kossuth.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 02:27:40
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
And most monk orders in FR are connected to churches and deities.
Like I said, most monk orders are deity based. Just not all. Monk orders do not have to be tied to a particular church.
Okay and? I never said all, I said most and many, more then once. |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 02:23:05
quote:
And most monk orders in FR are connected to churches and deities.
Like I said, most monk orders are deity based. Just not all. Monk orders do not have to be tied to a particular church. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 02:20:43
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
But they are not by definition, deity-based. I agree that in most instances they are
By whose definition? If they are connected to the churches/deities, then they are deity based. And most monk orders in FR are connected to churches and deities. |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 02:18:15
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
There is nothing in the rules to label them as priests or particularly religious.
I'm going to have to disagree with that part. Take a look through Faiths & Pantheons, and various other sourcebooks, like there's a drow monk order in Underdark that is connected to Lloth, and ya'll see that many of the monk orders are connected to a deity or deities.
But they are not by definition, deity-based. I agree that in most instances they are |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 02:18:14
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Oh and which order follows under Lolths guidence?
The Blackened Fist in the city of Undrek'Thoz under Thay. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 01:59:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
There is nothing in the rules to label them as priests or particularly religious.
I'm going to have to disagree with that part. Take a look through Faiths & Pantheons, and various other sourcebooks, like there's a drow monk order in Underdark that is connected to Lloth, and ya'll see that many of the monk orders are connected to a deity or deities.
Indeed.
Additionally, the Faiths & Pantheons web enhancement details other deity-based monk orders.
See here:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a
Wow, very nice! The Order of the Changeless Face is my favorite from this list. Beating down change with feet and fist, love it!
The Brotherhood of the Scarlet Scourge are downright scary with their creepy nails and their god Yutrus...
One could match some feat and skill choices to the styles of Fearun's monk orders; the offensive orders would favor feats like cleave and powerattack, the defensive ones disarm and expertise. Their was a dragon magazine with lots of style choices cant remeber whcih one.
Oh and which order follows under Lolths guidence? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 00:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
There is nothing in the rules to label them as priests or particularly religious.
I'm going to have to disagree with that part. Take a look through Faiths & Pantheons, and various other sourcebooks, like there's a drow monk order in Underdark that is connected to Lloth, and ya'll see that many of the monk orders are connected to a deity or deities.
Indeed.
Additionally, the Faiths & Pantheons web enhancement details other deity-based monk orders.
See here:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 17:19:23
Monks were big in Europe in the Middle Ages. As inspirations I think of The Name of the Rose and the Cadfael episodes of Mystery for you PBS watchers. Then of course there was Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's band of merry men; he was always portrayed as kind of a brawler.
Now, true, fighting prowess was not something you generally associate with European monks, but in a fantasy world of secluded monasteries beset by orcs and evil warlords and dragons, it is only natural that monks would need to develop some skills to defend themselves.
IIRC, Friar Tuck always seemed to use a beer stein as his monk weapon. I am surprised that D&D monks have not developed some other unique fighting styles. I would love to see dwarven monks who used battle steins and manouevers such as blinding spray, flaming spit take and belch of thunder. Even if they just used some style based on hammers, I think dwarven monks could be very, very cool. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 05:44:48
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
There is nothing in the rules to label them as priests or particularly religious.
I'm going to have to disagree with that part. Take a look through Faiths & Pantheons, and various other sourcebooks, like there's a drow monk order in Underdark that is connected to Lloth, and ya'll see that many of the monk orders are connected to a deity or deities. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 15:28:47
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Capoeira is the afrobrazilian martial art you meant. Relatively recently developed by the slaves of afro brazilian origin. It was camoeflaged as a dance because fighting training wasn't allowed at ranches which held slaves. The acrobatic and flashy dance allowed the dancers to train the body for future escapes.
That is it exactly. Thank you. Its very unlike Asian martial arts
No problem. I practised this beautiful sport for 3 years now, it really feels great to do sideflips and somersaults :) It's very fast and kick oriented. The similarities with asian martial arts are hidden behind the circular attack movements and the dancing stance(ginga) you learn to perform the the dance with a fellow capoeirista (joga di capoeira). The techniques for kicks and sweeps are very much like regular asian martial arts but you learn to time them with your ginga and to use momentum. It still remains mostly a dance with things like particular evasive footwork and rules for engagement. That doesn't mean you cant kick the hell out of any karateka though
So wherever martial arts are formed, optimizing kick and handsrtrikes will result in similarly employed techniques. Fearunians are bound to have their own rich traditional pugilistic or kick oriented fighting styles |
|
|
