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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  18:32:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its really more my current computer (which is on its last legs) then GIMP's fault. it can't handle the file sizes. I have a brand new one I got frustrated with that I haven't been using, so I just have to get off my duff and resolves the issue.

As for the 'Realms' on my map - I was thinking that - beings so damn 'orderly', they* just cut the Utter East into even slices and they each took one. There really isn't a whole lot of (flat) land there - the hills and mountains are not very far inland, compared to other regions. My solution is that in the 'Realm of Tides' they were mostly on the coast, and there were some islands there (I'll throw a few in there, and just say a lot are 'gone' now), so maybe about half the people in that realm lived 'on the water', which would include a few artificial, 'floating islands' (I am thinking about some of those floating 'junk' towns we see in the orient). Perhaps the Lady of Tides had HER palace/capitol on the back of Zaratan - that would be pretty nifty, eh?

And after the fall of her realm, she just 'sailed off'. So somewhere in FR maybe we got a lich queen riding around with her domain on the back of an undead Zaratan. Is that awesome or what?

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

You can kind of indirectly tie in Lolth and Kali, by way of Shar. I don't have my Forgotten Realms books around, but given that Kali and Shar have a lot of overlap, it's possible that Shar IS Kali, or masquerades as her, or killed her and took her stuff (lol, haven't written that in a while), or some other deal. Going on that assumption, that Shar is somehow Kali, there was that cult that worshiped Shar and Lolth as the same individual. I'm going all by vague memory here, I don't even remember where that cult was (I think they were all wiped out by a joint venture between Lolth and Shar).
Yeah, I was playing with the Kali/Shar thing awhile ago as well. Its also a decent fit. perhaps I could just take that heresy that thinks Shar and Lloth are the same god, and just say that in the Utter East, they call this deity 'Kali' (I'm thinking Khalimar, just to make a bit different and Realmsian).

Also, we've talked about blue-skinned 'Trow' here and in another thread, which I was thinking were troll-blooded Drow, so she fits right in. THIS is what I picure OUR (FR) Kali looking like. Tell me that doesn't just scream 'Drow' (with eight limbs!). I think the uE may have had a significant Dark Elf population pre-descent, and after the descent, they either scattered (north, south, and DOWN), or simply began to 'recede' into the jungles (where its dark enough because of the thick canopy). I picture at least some of the ones that remained to have interbred with trolls, making Trow (looking similar to Warcraft's Trolls.)

So we've got an ancient 'Drow' presence in the region, and I could see ignorant Mar finding these temples and including these gods in their own pantheon (I assume both the Chinese and Vedic pantheons were missing quite a few members when they emigrated, so Torillian deities filled-in those spots).

The Padhran Faith I see being Toril-native, and it grew out of all this convoluted, multi-pantheon mess (starting in 'The Cave of a Thousand Gods', in The Taan). It was basically FR humans trying to make sense of things, and put all these deities in some sort of ordered hierarchy (which is probably not even real - just a mortal construct that the gods themselves ignore).


*Edit:
And for these 'Lords of Order', I am thinking that perhaps they were Chosen, or 'exarchs' in the 4e lingo. Chosen of different elemental lords. When the Mar first migrated in the Ue, they had their own, India-like (Vedic) culture, and also had a large influence from the Dgen directly south of them (I may be pushing the Mar too far back in the timeline, but that's okay - migrations happen over thousands and thousands of years). Thus, the elemental cults took precedence (in this one region) over the rest of the Vedic pantheon (which is probably only a few of the 'real' ones anyway - perhaps as little as just two).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2017 18:50:32
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  19:02:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So we have Five Exarchs of their Elemental (primordial) Lords, who 'brought order to the Utter East'*, and over time they became despots (perhaps 'enlightened despots in one or two cases). No-one liked my Tartyron = Bane idea, eh? It was just a thought. The problem is, when you have FIVE different people all making laws, and then they disagree, who's right? Thats why the first Bloodforge Wars happened.

We also have to figure out who this theoretical 'Fifth lord' (Aether) is, and where he/she got off to (since they didn't seem to be involved in the wars at all). I placed that realm down by Yakiria, so maybe we can do something with that? Maybe we can spin him as Savras? (an 'Aether' = 'Magic' thing?)

And lastly, maybe one or more of these 'lords' is actually one of the 'evils' that is locked-away? Maybe things became so bad the Mar revolted and locked their own leaders behind seals? That would be a neat spin on things. As exarchs they should be immortal, so they wouldn't die, and locking them away may have been the only solution the Mar could come up with. So we'd have one or more ancient, pissed-off demipowers... if they weren't wholly evil before, they should be by now.


*I don't think they would have called it the Utter East - that's from a Faerūnian perspective. And the 'Realms of Order' sounds kind of stupid (maybe it was just the 'official' name). I'd prefer we just start referring to those ancient, fallen kingdoms as 'The Five Kingdoms', which fits the lore. Its probably what the common mar called them.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
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USA
2902 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  20:02:03  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-That does indeed seem very Lolthy.

-I'll have to plug in my portable hard drive and look at some of those old FR Elves files. Going by memory, all I really remember were the Star Elves in the Yuirwood (and they aren't really that East enough) and the Eastern Lythari. The Eastern Lythari were in the Hordelands, but unless some book or sourcebook has filled in some of the blanks, they're still a pretty big mystery as to their history and the hows and whys as to why they're there.

-The thing that feels off to me regarding the Realms of Order having ties to the Elemental Lords is that nature (and thus the Elemental Lords) is way too chaotic to want to bring order and law. I know the Elemental Lords are all technically neutral, but that always felt wrong to me. I feel like it's more that they are neutral in their dealings and their cold, uncaring attitudes towards mortals, but not in what they represented. Only maybe Grumbar could be seen as orderly and lawful, but Kossuth, Ishtisha, Akadi...fire, air, and water are unpredictable and chaotic (especially Akadi as Teylas, with an emphasis on lightning and storms). Why would the Elemental Lords wanting to be bringing law and order to the area?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  00:23:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, I think we figured out the 'Realm of Fire' was up near 'the top' - probably the border area between the uE and Ulgarth (on my original uE map, I stuck some volcanos in there). If you look at that map (its here in CK's Map Room) you can see where I put it - an arm of the mountains extending between the Stoney Waste and Serpent Valley (a swamp where I believe the vampire-looking dude came from).

There is no map laying out the Realms in the game, which I suppose is both good and bad (because if they did something stupid - or contradictory - it would be really hard to fix it). EDIT: I stand corrected, there was a smooshed (BAD) map included in the game.

I have also assumed there was 'Fifth' Kingdom (since the Utter East IS referred to as the 'Five Kingdoms') in the ast, that wasn't involved in the Bloodforge War (or just never got a mention - we can spin it either way), but because of the Vedic spin we are putting on things now (rather than a Chinese/Japanese spin, which would be Metal/wood), I'm going with 'Void' (or Aether), because reasons.

Maybe it wasn't involved in the BF Wars because they couldn't find it (Void, get it?)

I planned to put The Realm of Water down around Konigheim, and then have a 'no-mans land' between it and Doegan where another kingdom once existed, but only because of the Northmen association with water. However, I'm rethinking that, because Doegan, I believe, was the one with the really odd looking people (so it had more of a lovecraftian, "Shadow Over Innsmouth" vibe to it). Although some Konigheimers had a '3rd eye' in their foreheads, we decided (way back) to attribute that to the Mar influences in the region (that kingdom has a very strange blend of Indian and Norse cultures). Ascetics following a certain path (PrC in 3e lingo) could 'awaken' their 3rd eye and have it become real (it was just a tattoo the priesthood sported before that). This, BTW is where we think Savras originated (he was born a Mar, and traveled to Halruaa to learn 'greater mysteries of the art'). His period of capture by Azuth is probably when the Northemn and Ffolk first started their devastation of the Five Kingdoms (thus, he was unable to act).

Maybe Koenigheim was the Realm of Lands (the southern half of it, anyway) because I picture that being pretty rocky and barren. then the belt of unsettled land between Konigheim and Doegan (still technically part of Konigheim, but only because no one bothers to challenge their claim to it) could be 'Void' (Aether). The only problem with that is that makes the RoF and the RoL at opposite ends of the uE, making the lore in the B&M VG a bit odd.

I'll try to throw something together real quick, for reference, and then we can tweak it.

EDIT:
Aaaaaaaaaand... GIMP crashed.
But I tricked it... I saved just before it happened! I had to add the layer masks (out of vanity - I just couldn't have the coasts looking THAT messy), and I found a problem that would have bitten me in the rump later on, so its good I decided to do this (I had a small section of coast on the wrong layer - it was driving me nuts trying to find why a certain tool wasn't working properly). I also added in all the 'Realm' names (current). I was just tidying up a river valley when it crashed. The very next things was going to be to add the theoretical 'Realms of Order' (what a gawd-awful name) in shaded areas. Almost got there, too.



Nah, I gotta say, I don't like the Void idea as the basis for a Lord... in the beginning that is. However, I can buy the idea of Tartryon being metal, and him being in the mountains. I can then buy him being "infected" with the concept of "void" or "negative energy".

Correspondingly as well, the Lord that we don't hear about (wood) might also see to take on "air" as well, and he might be some kind of weather, plants, living things "entity" of some sort.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  01:38:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I still like the idea that Tartyron himself isn't air, but rather is metal for his "elemental linkage". I also like the idea that he tried to link himself to "negative elemental energy", and that's what got him imprisoned.


Tartyron could've switched his elemental focus: taken away from the air and bound underground, amidst fire and earth, he was forced to encase himself in metal armour (to stop the air leaking out?) and devote himself to elemental metal or something instead. Whatever the Circle of Order's deal, there's a shocking level of cruelty in his punishment for vague "chaotic schemes".

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey, do we have anything approaching a map/picture showing the layout in game of the 3 different realms? I think I saw something that showed the land of fire might be at the top, such that maybe Ulgarth and the utter east is separated by volcanos.


There is indeed a map in the game; I've included it on each of the pages of the wiki for each area of the game. It compresses the canon maps of the Utter East substantially in the north–south direction, so it takes some examining to compare the game locations with other maps of the Utter East. (What I couldn't include where the highlighted borders between these places, but they mostly follow geography.)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Blood_%26_Magic_game_map.jpg

Ten years ago, I took a canon map, the B&M game map, and the novel map, compared the locations, and combined them on a proper map. So, it may be crude, but this is the only canonical combined map of the various versions of the Utter East, plus Ulgarth. One discrepancy is that the novels moved Edenvale from beside Herne's Wood/the Sempadan Forest to much further north. (Maybe the whole kingdom had to relocate from the Jungle of Monsters? Or there's two Edenvales?)
https://badcatman.deviantart.com/art/Combined-Utter-East-map-714820695



Thanks badcatman. So, just so I'm clear, it looks like you've taken a portion of the Kara-Tur trail map and used the maps from the double diamond triangle series and tried to combine it with this map from blood and magic. I'd agree... Edenvale seems oddly placed on the double diamond triangle map... but given its more clearly matching there than some video game screen.... yeah, definitely the best thing. Maybe the in-game representation of Herne's Wood leading to Edenvale Castle represents a portal between some castle in "Edenvale" down to "Herne's Wood". I would agree though, what you present is probably the best possible corresponding layout. I'd also venture to call the Herne's Wood/Sempadan Forest area as the likely place for a "lord of wood" that no one mentions in the Blood and magic game.

Is there anything in-game that might show the "land" that belonged to Tartyron (i.e. in my viewpoint, the land of the lord of metals, and possibly the lord of negative energy). If not, I'd say that "Phantom Pass" and that whole "icy" area up in the top of edenvale and into the "Phantom Pass" area would work well for him. As a being linked to negative energy, it would work for him to have "ghostly spirits"/Phantoms. In fact, now that I think on it... maybe that's what he did that pissed off the other lords.... maybe he tried to absorb/turn the local spirits with negative energy. It would also fit with him having ties to "cold", and with all the nearby mountains, him being metal would fit.

Also, we have Herne's wood, and we do know Herne the master of the wild hunt was in Faerun

From Faiths & Avatars

The Beastlord did challenge and defeat Herne, a corrupted incarnation of the Master of the Hunt brought to, the Realms by an ancient wave of immigrants along with Oghma and other powers. Herne was venerated by the orcs of the High Forest, and Malar has since assumed his portfolio.

So, I may be placing too much emphasis on that word incarnation... but what if that's what he was.... some kind of being possessing a tie to Herne, but not Herne himself (implying that Herne himself might be a "manifestation" in the realms).... so this incarnation would basically a "god-king".

In fact, what if that's what these lords of order were... blood kin to manifestations that had arrived. Maybe even the Babylonian/Sumerian gods that arrived allowed some other gods to piggyback with them (like Herne the Hunter) who might have been part of their pantheon on whatever world the Mulan people originated from (it may not have been earth, and I prefer that it wasn't). Maybe some gods didn't want to follow and headed south (such as Ereshkigal

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Nov 2017 02:16:38
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  01:47:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So we have Five Exarchs of their Elemental (primordial) Lords, who 'brought order to the Utter East'*, and over time they became despots (perhaps 'enlightened despots in one or two cases). No-one liked my Tartyron = Bane idea, eh? It was just a thought. The problem is, when you have FIVE different people all making laws, and then they disagree, who's right? Thats why the first Bloodforge Wars happened.

We also have to figure out who this theoretical 'Fifth lord' (Aether) is, and where he/she got off to (since they didn't seem to be involved in the wars at all). I placed that realm down by Yakiria, so maybe we can do something with that? Maybe we can spin him as Savras? (an 'Aether' = 'Magic' thing?)

And lastly, maybe one or more of these 'lords' is actually one of the 'evils' that is locked-away? Maybe things became so bad the Mar revolted and locked their own leaders behind seals? That would be a neat spin on things. As exarchs they should be immortal, so they wouldn't die, and locking them away may have been the only solution the Mar could come up with. So we'd have one or more ancient, pissed-off demipowers... if they weren't wholly evil before, they should be by now.


*I don't think they would have called it the Utter East - that's from a Faerūnian perspective. And the 'Realms of Order' sounds kind of stupid (maybe it was just the 'official' name). I'd prefer we just start referring to those ancient, fallen kingdoms as 'The Five Kingdoms', which fits the lore. Its probably what the common mar called them.





On Tartyron as Bane... I don't picture LE Bane as a "Lord of Chaos".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  02:10:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except the Vedic mythos/folklore doesn't have wood or metal, they have Aether. HERE is their Elemental Beliefs (scroll down to Hinduism). However, on THIS PAGE which specifically talks about the Hindu elements (Mahabhūta) it focuses on the primary four, and then mentions only a possible other two - Akasha, or Aether, and Vijńana, or 'life force'. I preferred to associate the fifth kingdom/element with Life, but that would make Akasha = 'death', which isn't right (because we DO have two other quasi-elements in D&D - positive and negative energy).

Most religions tend to leave-off the 'negative' one (they accept that it exists, they just don't pay it any faith... usually). In order to rectify/ratify the four elements of western alchemy to the five elements of Oriental mysticism, I have named the fifth one 'Alloy' for purely mechanical reasons - it is Wood, metal, and 'Life' all in one (each religion puts a different spin on it, is all). Because even western alchemy has the fifth element ("Leeloo Multipass!"), which is a combination of the other four in perfect harmony (the basis for 'life', so 'wood', or as I interpret metal, 'alloy'). Once again, everyone is aware of 'void' or whatever they want to call the 6th one, they just ignore it.

So if we can think of it like this:

Element           Energy
Earth             Acid
Air (wind')       Electricity
Fire              Heat/Fire
Water             Cold
Alloy ('life')    Sonic 

Void (Entropy)    Death (necrotic energy)


So maybe Tartyron was Air (which filled his head with 'lofty thoughts'), and he started to fiddle with the forbidden 'element'/energy, death. Of course, if you think he fits better with Alloy (Metal/Wood/Life), than I can make that work too (because whatever's left, I have to place down in Yakiria, and I have some ideas for that. Void/death would work better, of course, for Yakfolk).

And the interesting thing here is that there are devas (I believe canonically, but I haven't read the FoD novel) in nearby Langdarma, who I'm now spinning as the Wind Dukes of Aqua (Vaati). Those guys should be associated with Air as well... but then why do they have 'Aqua' in the name? Perhaps there are actually Vaati for each element, like 'elemental angels'?


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2017 02:43:57
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  02:11:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

I'll have to plug in my portable hard drive and look at some of those old FR Elves files. Going by memory, all I really remember were the Star Elves in the Yuirwood (and they aren't really that East enough) and the Eastern Lythari. The Eastern Lythari were in the Hordelands, but unless some book or sourcebook has filled in some of the blanks, they're still a pretty big mystery as to their history and the hows and whys as to why they're there.
Yeah, the lythari being there, and also the 'druidish' representation of the early Raumathari (from the same novel - Frostfell) is going to save my arse when I start fudging-in this 'spiritfolk'/halfelf Fey thing. I can even spin the weird language difference (those elves don't speak regular elven) into all of it (it had major Devic influences).

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

The thing that feels off to me regarding the Realms of Order having ties to the Elemental Lords is that nature (and thus the Elemental Lords) is way too chaotic to want to bring order and law. I know the Elemental Lords are all technically neutral, but that always felt wrong to me. I feel like it's more that they are neutral in their dealings and their cold, uncaring attitudes towards mortals, but not in what they represented. Only maybe Grumbar could be seen as orderly and lawful, but Kossuth, Ishtisha, Akadi...fire, air, and water are unpredictable and chaotic (especially Akadi as Teylas, with an emphasis on lightning and storms). Why would the Elemental Lords wanting to be bringing law and order to the area?
Yes and no.

What we 'see' are their religions. Gods are not their religions, and in some cases, the religions are way off base (heresies). And its holds especially true of the primordials (elemental gods) because they even get assigned a sex, which is preposterous (different cultures represent the 'big four' elemental Lords as different sexes... and none of them are correct. Primordials are asexual). I don't think those gods really care all that much about Order - thats was just how they were connected too the Mar.

I see the Mar as a culture with just a couple of their own gods (Indian pantheon), and the rest of the pantheon had to be filled-out with FR deities, thus Kossuth becomes Agni, etc. Since that pantheon is all about 'harmony' (lawful balance), the Elemental lords just got stuck with that schtick. I'm thinking a deal was struck - that those primal powers held a LOT of sway in the Utter East, and when the Mar arrived they each chose a mortal representative (High Priest Exarch), who coming from the Mar (Vedic) culture spu everything very orderly. Hell, the place they all come from is now called the "Elemental Chaos", so I can see where the confusion comes in.

But its really the Archomentals who embrace the chaos. The 'Big Four' sided with the Gods (Estelar) in the Dawn War, so they are different than the others.

Maybe Ubtao can be Aether. I never know what to do with Ubtao; I keep changing my mind about him.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2017 02:44:33
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  13:57:10  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading about real-world Kali, she's not actually evil, it seems. She's a destroyer of evil with a badass look. But the Indian look with multiple arms and long tongues is a fun one to apply to existing deities: Lolth as a drow with eight arms, a dancing Eilistraee, a five-armed Garagos, etc.

But if you want to stick drow in the jungles, you basically have Eberron's Xen'drik drow.

The first time around, I proposed some stray god aliases, particularly those of the Adama in Durpar, could be former Mar gods: Zionil (Gond, whose gear is all over Blood & Magic), Lucha (Selūne), Curna (Oghma), for three. And the others are Waukeen and Torm, no aliases, both latecomers to the Faerūnian pantheon with mysterious origins – perhaps they were once Mar gods? All with Hindu-like spins on original, fantasy gods (no need to stick the Vedic pantheon in).

Faces of Deception introduced the goddess Serene Abhirati, Mother of Peace and Beauty, who was born in Langdarma. The "Rogues Gallery" article for Faces of Deception in the 1993 Dragon magazine annual has this to say, and gets weird:
“This is Langdarma, the legendary valley of peace and beauty, birth-home to the Serene Abhirati, and the last bastion of wordly bliss. Located in the heart of the Yehimal Mountains of the enigmatic Utter East, it is known only to a few of Toril’s Heartland sages.”
“The Serene Abhirati was born millennia ago, emerging fully grown from the roots of three mountains known as the Sisters of Serenity. She made her home in the valley of Langdarma and became the Mother of Peace and Beauty, spreading harmony over the Utter East. Although she was the first to leave when the Serene Ones departed, her presence left behind an aura that lingers to this day.”
“None knows what became of Abhirati. Some suggest she assumed the name Sharess and wandered the Planes. Others insist that she forgot her identity and became Sigil's ruler, the Lady of Pain. Whatever the case, she left behind an aasimon servant – a movanic deva called the Sannyasi – to keep her home safe. The Sannyasi has done his duty well, hiding Langdarma beneath one of the High Yehimals’ immense glaciers and concealing the valley’s entrances behind an ever-changing array of magical gates.”


An element of Void, by its nature, should have no lord, no realm, no nothing. It is nothing. (Or maybe it would be in space.)


As for Tartyron's realm, it's possible he never got one. B&M says "When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea, one among them was cast down for his chaotic schemes." Which kind of implies he was kicked out in the midst of their rise to power. But if he did have a hypothetical "Realm of Air" or "Realm of Winds", then I picture something on the mountain peaks, perhaps with bridges and airships linking them.

But for those with wood for Wood, Herne's Wood has great treehouses built around the trunks of tall trees and linked by bridges. This could satisfy any need for Wood or Air.


From the Mahasarpa setting, the vaati are the wind dukes of "Aaqa" – not "Aqua".

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  17:58:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering I came from GH, I should have known that.
So they won't be fighting the Flaming Earls of Terra anytime soon?

I'm still not sure if I want BOTH normal (jungle/Eberron) Drow AND 'Trow' (something like Warcraft's trolls). I may have one larger group that fled down into the Sempadan (where we used to have the old herne's Wood, so SE of where i intend to put Hern'e Wood now), and have small pockets of 'Trow' all over the Utter east (typical monster fair). I don't really need true drow, since we have Dambrath fairly close to explain stuff, but sticking one tribe in the jungles couldn't hurt anything (and creates an interesting dynamic in an already-busy area - I have Yuan-ti {Mahasarpa} very close to the border of Yakiria already).

A Trow and his minotaur ally witness the arrival of the Northerners in the Utter East.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2017 18:19:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  20:32:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We should keep Abhirati, whether she's still around or not. Considering how hazy the rules have gotten around what can and what can't grant spells, I don't think it really matters.

I think I connected the Wind Dukes and the 'Sisters of Serenity' in the old thread - two groups of devas? One obviously connected to Air, and the latter probably Earth. They should still be linked to the region - maybe say they're still living 'there', but in the astral (or they could just have gates... Langdarma itself could be a major crossover point). Since I've now placed mahasarpa just south in the Sempadan, the Vaati are an even better fit than they were the first time around.

'Void' can be the missing realm, then. Taryron really needs to be air, to balance everything.

So we got...

Abhirati - demipower of serenity
Agni (Kossuth) - Lord of Fire (primordial)
Bala - goddess of music (imported from Zakhara)
Beshaba - Goddess of ill fortune
Charaun - God of clandestine activity (sneaking, spying, thievery, etc., - Rogue stuff) Really an alias of Vhaeraun
Bhumi (Grumbar) - God of earth (primordial)
Curna - Oghma
Eilish (Khalresh) - daughter of Khalimar, 'dancer in the forests', goddess of nature. Really Eiistraee
Fatima (Fate) - Not so much 'worshiped' in the Utter East, as 'acknowledged'
Garagos (Karttikeya) - God of war
Garuda - 'King of All Birds'. Ancient enemy of Pazuzu (and Fileet)
Hanuman - Monkey, Sun Wukong, "The Monkey King" - lovable trickster god
Indra - A native Mar who was filled with the spirit of Indra (Core in a dream. Went from a Manifestation to full god.
Isthishia (Ap) - Goddess of Water (primordial)
Jauhar (Waukeen) - Goddess of wealth. Only the Mar call her Jauhar
Khalimar - goddess of protection ('mothering') and vengeance (really Lloth)
Lakshmi (Tymora) - Goddess of luck
Marutagana (Akadi) - Goddess of Air (Primordial), sometimes worshiped as a male aspect by Mar called 'Vayu'
Puchan - Ue 'god of guides', almost like a Bedine version of Valkur
Ratrishaar (Shaar) - an odd take on Shaar - more neutral
Rudra (Teylas) - exarch of Akadi (Marutagana/Vayu), has taken the disease portfolio in this region
Savras - demipower of magic, former priest of Surya during life (in the Ue)
Soma - God of sleep, "Lord of Dreams"
Sunev (Sune) - Goddess of beauty, sometimes called 'Selan' by tribal (nomadic) peoples
Surya - Ue alias for Aumanator
Valkur - God of sailors (ascended Corsair)
Varuna - alias of Torm (only Mar call him Varuna)
Vishnu - Mar name for Lathander
Yama (Yami) - A native female Mar who ascended - Exarch (demipower) of Mielikki (has NOTHING to do with core Yama)
Zion-Tvash - generic god of smithing (Zional, Moradin, Tvashtri, Gond, Goibne).

The only true Vedic deity would be Soma, who like Ptah, opened a 'back door' for the vedic pantheon to enter The Realms (through dreams). the only two to firmly establish themselves was Indra and Yama - mortals who were filled with the spirits (avatars) of those gods through their dreams (so, Manifestations), but also very different than their earth counterparts (for example, FR Yama (Yami) is a female here, and more about nature than death.

In some cases, gods from other Torillian pantheons rushed to fill-in the gaps (or absorb the recently arrived - and weak - powers), or Mar mortals ascended to to take their places (which may or may nt have also been through 'dream sendings').

So Soma is (Vedic) 'real', and Indra and Yama are 'real'... sort of. I guess we could kind of say the elemental powers are also all real, since they are known by so many different names on so many worlds (and are therefor part of just about every pantheon). The only one I kept was 'istishia', since that already sounds Indian to me.

There also elemental spirits (Devas) they are venerated, like the Maruts (Vaati) and Sisters of Serenity (earth spirits).

In these southern waters, Umberlee isn't even paid lip-service. Istishia has totally 'taken her stuff' in this regard. The Raven Queen may be making in-roads here (since FR Yama isn't interested in the death portfolio), but she'd only have cult-status, at best (so far). There would also be 'fiend cults' among the humanoids, and perhaps even among some of the more debased humans.

Cults to Dagon, or other 'Lovecraftian' entities would also work very well here. If it doesn't have multiple arms, then it has tentacles.

EDIT:
Oh, and Garuda IS Garuda. He's even the third deity (fourth if you want to include Yama's Water-buffalo) mentioned in the K-T material. Although definitely a part of the Indian pantheon, he is also a Beast Lord, and thus can usually emigrate without restrictions.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2017 18:24:12
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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  20:47:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Priests of Surya were once able to 'activate' the third eye in their forehead (a specialist ability), which is just a tattoo until a certain level is reached. This would grant them certain benefits when casting divinations. Sometime right after the death of Mystryl (and the fall of Netheril), Surya stopped answering his priests, and the '3rd eye' became extremely rare (only very long-lived ascetics would still have it). Surya's once powerful church fell into decline, barely existing as cults throughout the Utter East, and the faith of Vishnu began to arise (really Lathander in Realmspace).

However, sometime around the early 1300's DR, Surya (really Aumanator) began to answer spells again, and persons with the eye tattoo could activate it. Since that time his church has seen a resurgence, and even quite a few of the Northmen conquerors have taken to his service. A few have even multi-classed into psions (Yogi) and have developed powers that enable them to shoot energy from the eye.

Konigheim is a scarey place.

EDIT:
The Savage Gods of Zakhara (mostly from Nog and Kador) are also known, in the Sempadan region. The Black Leopard (Buhei, demi-power) is known, but most of his cultists have gone over to Khalimar since the invasions of the northerners. If anything, his few remaining cultists act against the cultists of Kiga, in the jungles to the SE (both are Raksasha {Over}lords - exarch-level Raksasha - in my Homebrew material).

I should probably add Monkey as well. I only have one K-T god, and its not really him (In my homebrew, No Cha, Chinese god of Thieves, has really been Vhaeraun masquerading as him all along).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2017 21:09:22
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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Nov 2017 :  23:28:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to be porting-over a bunch of Eberron lore in regards to the Raksasha (as well as some Mystara lore).

I have it elsewhere (my own homebrew) that Rakshasa are actually a very specific type of Kasta (Khaasta being the most common surviving variant), which were fiendish warriors created specifically to fight in the Dawn War (by both sides). since that time, they have branched-off into 'other things'.

Raksasha (Overlords) Rajahs - actually demipowers. Ravanna might even be a lesser power at this point (the other 'lords' feeding his godhood as exarchs). They are trapped in the Yehimals.
Lords of Dust - are the 'free' (common) Raksasha who are actively trying to free their masters, the Rajahs. These are fiends, and some can be quite powerful (but NOT 'fiend lords').
• Among the Lords of Dust are the following sub-groups -
•• Raksasha Sorcerors - the leaders
•• Zakyas - the warriors
•• Ak'chazars - 'the Rogues' that work alone, some for the Lords of Dust, but it's also a generic term for all solitary Raksasha.
•• Naztharunes - the Sneaks' (spies) - Buhaei (The Black Panther) is a member of this group.
Naityan - shapeshifting Raksasha - ones that specialize in taking monstrous forms, and can use those monster's abilities.
Dracosasha - Dragon/Raksasha hybrids (thankfully extremely rare).
Flind - Raksasha-Gnoll crossbreed (will breed true with each other or another Raksasha, 50% chance if bred with a common gnoll).
Rakasta - what humans inaccurately call 'Tabaxi'. They are a race that has evolved from human-Raksasha crossbreeding (first generation would technically have been tielfings... except that word has been appropriated for a very specific type of tielfing, so I have no idea what they'd be in 5e - some sort of Planetouched, or Cambion?).

Wemics were just one of many 'beastman' races bred by the ancient Raksasha. If a Raksasha breeds with a Wemic you just get a very large, powerful wemic. If a wemic breeds with some other sort of fiend you'd get the usual 'fiendish' wemic (there is one tribe in the Stoney wastes lead by a very large brute of a creature with horns).

Quaggoths are another group bred by the Raksasha in a distant age, from various creatures, including bears, Yeti, Alaghi, and themselves (among other things). Some groups appear more ursoid, while groups with a higher ratio of Raksasha blood have a more feline look to them. Ape-like variants are known in the east, as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2017 00:04:14
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Nov 2017 :  13:31:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you need someone to open a pathway through dreams and it be tied to this region.... I'd recommend Untamo. He's in the Desert of Desolation, so he traveled WAAYYY up NORTH (North always being relative).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Same God, different cultures.

Added Monkey, Garagos, Lakshmi, Beshaba, and Fate to the above list.

Most are self-explanatory, but 'Fate' is more acknowledged and accepted and has no actual following (as it is in Zakhara, IIRC). In fact, she is usually used as an expletive when things go wrong ("cursed Fatima!"). Unlike her believers in Zakhara, however, they people of the Utter East do not believe everything is 'set in stone'. They believe some folk have a destiny, but they also believe that you can can write your own, as well. Also, followers of Surya are big on divinations in the Ue, and this puts them at odds sometimes with the beliefs of Fate, and at other times, in agreement (because divining the future implies Fate, while knowing it enables you to change it). Fortunately, since Fatima has no organized following, there is no friction.

Surya, like so many of the (Indian) gods in my above list is NOT the Hindu/Vedic Surya. He is an aspect of Aumanator, and his worship here in the Utter East is a borderline heresy. His priesthood's justification of their penchant for divinations (and the whole 'Third Eye' thing) is that Aumanator has 'time' in his portfolio, which means them doing augeries makes sense.

Soma is Untamo, the 'King of Dreams'. There is only one, even though he may appear different in different pantheons. No-one knows his true form (he is the 'stuff of dreams', after all). This means he is the same as the Indian Soma. Garuda is another that IS the god he seems to be. Most of the others are just other Torilian gods posing as Indian gods.

I went over all of this a LONG time ago in the original thread, so I didn't want to rehash it here, but the quick version is this: Some of the Mar-Ang people were being plagued by Raksasha (the 'lesser' ones), and they cried out 'to the gods' for help. Buhei (The Black Leopard, who also happens to be a rare 'good' Raksasha) heard their pleas, and contacted Soma to send those people 'visions' of the Vedic pantheon in their dreams. Although most of the people receiving the sendings began to feel hope that these gods would come and help them, a brother and sister (twins) became zealous about these beings, and so Indra and Yama sent avatars to merge with them in their sleep, becoming Manifestations. These were the first two, and Garuda followed 'in person' (Soma was obviously already there because of the dreams). The brother and sister lead their people against the Raksashi and drove them off, and so began the beginnings of a 'Malatra Pantheon', based loosely on the Indian one.

Like the manifestations of the Pharonic (and other) pantheons in the Old Empires, those two gods are technically still aspects of the original, multispheric (archtype) power, but they are also very different and independent of it. Since this culture was rapidly going from beast-totem and spirit worship to organized religion, MANY Torillian powers took notice and hopped on board (answering the prayers to the Indian gods that were NOT present). This is STILL happening - the three drow deities were 'late arrivals' to the pantheon, only after the Mar migrated into Guge, and other places technically 'Faerūn', and their ancient temples discovered. I have to assume they had some death god - probably Jergal - and when he 'fell off' they never took to Myrkul (because they still had some Earth-lore {religion} that Yama was in charge of that... even though our Yami didn't care about it at all).

Myrkul, for his part, was warned to stay out of 'The East' by Yen Wang Yeh when he ascended, and not wanting to annoy that ancient power, abided (which included Maltra and the Mar people). Yen Wang Yeh DOES act as 'judge of the dead' over ALL K-Ters, which includes the peoples of lower Kara-Tur, but he isn't really worshiped by them (like fate, they simply acknowledge his existence as part of the 'Celestial Order').

Post-3e, the Raven Queen made some overtures toward the gods of the Utter East, and offered to take 'death' off of Yami's hands (who never wanted it), in exchange for not having anything to do with nature or the Ue's Yaksha (Fey) in the region. She also promised to keep Auril out of the Yehimals if she was granted dominion over their cold aspect as well. Yami sent her priests visions that this would be to her liking, and TRQ's following is beginning to take root in the Ue. Obviously, The Raven Queen got the better part of this deal, since she had little 'control' over nature or non-shadow fey anyway. She has also made an alliance with Yen Wang Yeh - she holds the death portfolio, but HE is still the Judge of the Dead (Jergal still sorts all the dead and sends them to their proper afterlifes/pantheons, probably without Kelemvor even realizing that 'layer' exists).

And as to that, this 'region' is not an official 'pantheon-controlled' area, like how the old Empires got separated from the rest of Faerūn. There is nothing 'blocking' other gods from gaining followings here - just about anything should be allowed, and their are many people who have settled here who still venerate their own gods (for example, the Ffolk still pay homage to The Earthmother, but since there are no Moonwells in the area, her worship has taken the form of small hearth-shrines in the home).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2017 18:07:24
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Markustay
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Posted - 15 Nov 2017 :  19:49:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'The Black Leopard' has many names, but is usually just referred to as The Black Leopard. To the Marang people, he is Vibhishana (brother of Ravana, lord of Raksasha). To the people of Tu'Lung and parts of south-western Shou Lung he is Buhei. In the rest of Shou Lung and in the island nations he is known as Hei Te Pao (these name are canon, BTW, but 'Vibhishana is from RW Indian lore). He probably has other names in Koryo, and maybe Tabot. He is a 'free agent', much like Monkey, and tends toward doing good deeds just like that god (but also like Monkey, 'good' is really just a matter of opinion, so to the 'other side' in any conflict, these beings would appear to be 'evil').

One thing the two are in disagreement on, however, is Tan Chin. That Mage once freed The Black Leopard from captivity (because it suited his purposes), so that puts Buhei somewhat indebted to him. Also, Buhei (Vibhishana) originated with the Lords of Order (Indian Pantheon), so he doesn't really see 'ruling with an iron fist' as such a bad thing. He hates human suffering, but if it takes a tyrant to stop the wars so the peasants can live in peace, then so be it. That's basically what Tan Chis is all about - he is a tyrant, because he just wants to rule over Kara-Tur in an orderly fashion he feels without that iron-fist approach, you get corruption and rebellion, which he will NOT abide. Monkey, on the other hand, is all about 'personal freedom', and thinks everyone should just be able to live their lives in peace without having to answer to others. he is a complete anarchist. What this means is that while both Tan chin and Buhei might completely crush a local bandit gang, Monkey might leave them alone, so long as they aren't physically hurting anyone in a permanent fashion (or hurting people out of cruelty - twisting someone's arm to steal their purse is fine). If the gang is murdering folk for no reason - especially women and children - Monkey would show no mercy at all. This is why at times the three seem at odds, and a others, they seem to be on the same page (and have even worked together). Monkey may have even aided Tan Chin a few times before the whole affair with Meilan, but after that, he does everything in his power to counter Tan Chin's efforts (he felt he crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed at that point).

If I ever get around to doing Kara-Tur for 5e (I only intend to just touch upon it for the Utter East project), I plan to have Tan Chin be the 'Big Bad' in the east, and the reason why so many Shou are fleeing into the west (including Monkey... because Monkey should always go "Into the West").
Basically, he's going to be a combination of Emperor Ming (Flash Gordon), Lo Pan (Big Trouble in Little China), and The Mandarin (Marvel Comics), who actually managed to do a a lot of the same stuff tan chin was attempting in Thay (thus, Thay can return to a somewhat similar version of its former self, and the whole 'Plateau of Leng' thing they were going for in 4e can be shunted further east).

in fact, come to think about it, now that I've said that... despite old lore pointing to the opposite, perhaps a big portion of K-T SHOULD have arisen as a massive plateau, so that instead of the crevasse I was going for, all we would need is a honkin' big 'Wall' (landrise) - that would be plenty enough to stop the Tuigan! I was going to have a few large sections 'drop down into the Underdark' (before 4e ever gave us that Underchasm!), but instead, those could just be 'stable regions' where the land didn't rise. Hmmmmmm... I am so glad I haven't finalized everything yet... I am warming to this. Screw my volcanic, dwarven tunnel-bridge! They could have just cut something into the cliff-face (500'? More?) instead (a'la Pelevaran).

Imagine... an insanely high wall with legions of Undead behind it... no-one every thought of THAT, eh?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2017 19:50:48
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  01:14:12  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Maybe Ubtao can be Aether. I never know what to do with Ubtao; I keep changing my mind about him.


-Does he even exist anymore? Ubtao was always a weird kind of deity. Kinda cool, but kinda pointless, but kinda not.

-How would you tie Ubtao to the Utter East?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  13:20:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Same God, different cultures.

Added Monkey, Garagos, Lakshmi, Beshaba, and Fate to the above list.

Most are self-explanatory, but 'Fate' is more acknowledged and accepted and has no actual following (as it is in Zakhara, IIRC). In fact, she is usually used as an expletive when things go wrong ("cursed Fatima!"). Unlike her believers in Zakhara, however, they people of the Utter East do not believe everything is 'set in stone'. They believe some folk have a destiny, but they also believe that you can can write your own, as well. Also, followers of Surya are big on divinations in the Ue, and this puts them at odds sometimes with the beliefs of Fate, and at other times, in agreement (because divining the future implies Fate, while knowing it enables you to change it). Fortunately, since Fatima has no organized following, there is no friction.

Surya, like so many of the (Indian) gods in my above list is NOT the Hindu/Vedic Surya. He is an aspect of Aumanator, and his worship here in the Utter East is a borderline heresy. His priesthood's justification of their penchant for divinations (and the whole 'Third Eye' thing) is that Aumanator has 'time' in his portfolio, which means them doing augeries makes sense.

Soma is Untamo, the 'King of Dreams'. There is only one, even though he may appear different in different pantheons. No-one knows his true form (he is the 'stuff of dreams', after all). This means he is the same as the Indian Soma. Garuda is another that IS the god he seems to be. Most of the others are just other Torilian gods posing as Indian gods.

I went over all of this a LONG time ago in the original thread, so I didn't want to rehash it here, but the quick version is this: Some of the Mar-Ang people were being plagued by Raksasha (the 'lesser' ones), and they cried out 'to the gods' for help. Buhei (The Black Leopard, who also happens to be a rare 'good' Raksasha) heard their pleas, and contacted Soma to send those people 'visions' of the Vedic pantheon in their dreams. Although most of the people receiving the sendings began to feel hope that these gods would come and help them, a brother and sister (twins) became zealous about these beings, and so Indra and Yama sent avatars to merge with them in their sleep, becoming Manifestations. These were the first two, and Garuda followed 'in person' (Soma was obviously already there because of the dreams). The brother and sister lead their people against the Raksashi and drove them off, and so began the beginnings of a 'Maltra Pantheon', based loosely on the Indian one.

Like the manifestations of the Pharonic (and other) pantheons in the Old Empires, those two gods are technically still aspects of the original, multispheric (archtype) power, but they are also very different and independent of it. Since this culture was rapidly going from beast-totem and spirit worship to organized religion, MANY Torillian powers took notice and hopped on board (answering the prayers to the Indian gods that were NOT present). This is STILL happening - the three drow deities were 'late arrivals' to the pantheon, only after the Mar migrated into Guge, and other places technically 'Faerūn', and their ancient temples discovered. I have to assume they had some death god - probably Jergal - and when he 'fell off' they never took to Myrkul (because they still had some Earth-lore {religion} that Yama was in charge of that... even though our Yami didn't care about it at all).

Myrkul, for his part, was warned to stay out of 'The East' by Yen Wang Yeh when he ascended, and not wanting to annoy that ancient power, abided (which included Maltra and the Mar people). Yen Wang Yeh DOES act as 'judge of the dead' over ALL K-Ters, which includes the peoples of lower Kara-Tur, but he isn't really worshiped by them (like fate, they simply acknowledge his existence as part of the 'Celestial Order').

Post-3e, the Raven Queen made some overtures toward the gods of the Utter East, and offered to take 'death' off of Yami's hands (who never wanted it), in exchange for not having anything to do with nature or the Ue's Yaksha (Fey) in the region. She also promised to keep Auril out of the Yehimals if she was granted dominion over their cold aspect as well. Yami sent her priests visions that this would be to her liking, and TRQ's following is beginning to take root in the Ue. Obviously, The Raven Queen got the better part of this deal, since she had little 'control' over nature or non-shadow fey anyway. She has also made an alliance with Yen Wang Yeh - she holds the death portfolio, but HE is still the Judge of the Dead (Jergal still sorts all the dead and sends them to their proper afterlifes/pantheons, probably without Kelemvor even realizing that 'layer' exists).

And as to that, this 'region' is not an official 'pantheon-controlled' area, like how the old Empires got separated from the rest of Faerūn. There is nothing 'blocking' other gods from gaining followings here - just about anything should be allowed, and their are many people who have settled here who still venerate their own gods (for example, the Ffolk still pay homage to The Earthmother, but since there are no Moonwells in the area, her worship has taken the form of small hearth-shrines in the home).




I love that concept of the mortals "becoming" manifestations via their dreams (it would also work for them becoming lesser "incarnations" as well, but this provides them the means). Its very similar to how I'm proposing that many deities "transfer" to Abeir. I'm picturing something where certain mortals actually "dream walk" to the ship of the gods island on Abeir, and its here that maybe they undergo a physical ritual that puts them into a dream state that lets them transfer over into the mortal (with Ptah, Anubis, and some dream gods working together).

That being said, this one pathway with the ship of the gods may be a pathway that certain deities come through. Other deities at the exact same time might be doing other similar things which can be left hazy, or put little pointers to fill in later.

On the idea of death gods, I'd recommend Ereshkigal, as she has the whole same look of the raven queen and everything, plus she would be part of the Untheric Pantheon (she is technically the wife of Nergal and owned the underworld before and beside him, and she is the sister of Inanna).... but maybe she chose to break away from Enlil. Since the isle of Sahu from Complete Book of Necromancer's has a city named after her, maybe she migrated south and eventually her "manifestation" settle on that island (and maybe she's even bound there similar to the lich-priestess Vermissa..... hmmm, man now I got some possibilities spinning in my head of Vermissa being possessed by Ereshkigal despite her being a priestess of Thasmudyan... maybe only occurring after her imprisonment for centuries).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  18:02:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Maybe Ubtao can be Aether. I never know what to do with Ubtao; I keep changing my mind about him.


-Does he even exist anymore? Ubtao was always a weird kind of deity. Kinda cool, but kinda pointless, but kinda not.

-How would you tie Ubtao to the Utter East?
Actually, I think they made him super-important. Not sure if that is/was 4e or 5e, or if I am even getting that right, but he was the 'primordial who betrayed all the others' (so probably 4e). Plus, the newest AP takes place down in Chult, sooooo...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  18:22:33  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ubtao disappeared after the Spellplague, he don't even is watching over Dendar right now (his one job, and this becomes a pivotal point in the current AP—there is a guy trying to free Dendar). He just... vanished. Other gods are gaining prominence in Chult nowadays (according to the current AP).

My theory is that, with the return of Abeir and the other primordials, Ubtao remembered that stuff you has to do just the same day you have that awkward meeting with your old pals.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Nov 2017 18:23:01
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Markustay
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Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  18:47:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I love that concept of the mortals "becoming" manifestations via their dreams (it would also work for them becoming lesser "incarnations" as well, but this provides them the means). Its very similar to how I'm proposing that many deities "transfer" to Abeir. I'm picturing something where certain mortals actually "dream walk" to the ship of the gods island on Abeir, and its here that maybe they undergo a physical ritual that puts them into a dream state that lets them transfer over into the mortal (with Ptah, Anubis, and some dream gods working together).

That being said, this one pathway with the ship of the gods may be a pathway that certain deities come through. Other deities at the exact same time might be doing other similar things which can be left hazy, or put little pointers to fill in later.

On the idea of death gods, I'd recommend Ereshkigal, as she has the whole same look of the raven queen and everything, plus she would be part of the Untheric Pantheon (she is technically the wife of Nergal and owned the underworld before and beside him, and she is the sister of Inanna).... but maybe she chose to break away from Enlil. Since the isle of Sahu from Complete Book of Necromancer's has a city named after her, maybe she migrated south and eventually her "manifestation" settle on that island (and maybe she's even bound there similar to the lich-priestess Vermissa..... hmmm, man now I got some possibilities spinning in my head of Vermissa being possessed by Ereshkigal despite her being a priestess of Thasmudyan... maybe only occurring after her imprisonment for centuries).
It could all work, IF you make Nergal Nerull... which actually makes a LOT of sense. Or in other words, Nerull was really a Greyhawkian (Oerthan?) aspect of Nergal (a twisted, malevolent aspect, for whatever reason you want to come up with). Maybe he didn't emigrate to Greyspace until after he was forced to take the Netherword as his Domain, and he was bitter about it? Something along those lines. That way we have the same gods 'pairing off' in different pantheons/mythos, which is kind of cool. Mortal religions tend to twist the truth anyway (or the gods themselves do - usually both).

I had way more about the Malatran/Indian pantheon back when I first worked on the East - originally I was intending to bring-over the entire pantheon, but only a handful (four if we count the Water Buffalo) are mentioned by name. I even had a myth about how Yami became Yama (I'm starting to recall it better - it as actually an older brother and twins, with the male twin being a couple of minutes older than the female). Their village had been ravaged by the Raksashas and their parents dragged off. The Vedic gods spoke to them in their dreams, and the three of them accepted the spirits into themselves. But during the battle with the Raksasha, Yama was hit by the Arrow of Endless Death, which would not allow him to return to the world (as a god - even a demipower - normally would). Yami cried over her brother, and took his name, Yama (which is a MALE name in India, which is why I really made 'her' Yami) so that he 'would live in the hearts of the people forever'. The older brother Manu (Shraddhadeva) had taken on the spirit of Indra, and these two ascended to full godhood through the worship of their people (the Malatrans).

In the final battle with Ravana (the Raksasha king), Garuda appeared to help the Manifestations against his ancient enemy. He also brought a cup (the Chalice of Soma) from the Lord of Dreams, which Manu/Indra partook off, which gave him great power during the battle. I've merged elements of the RW myths here with my own (Indra did drink Soma to gain strength, but the cup is an artifact which allows someone to 'alter reality' the same way one can alter their dreams, for one hour). If someone were to use this in their campaign (I don't recommend it), make it the a 'Three Wishes' item, with no chance of wording things improperly.

As for the Arrow of Endless Death, it was 'confiscated' by the Celestial Emperor, and given to Chih-Chiang Fyu-Ya for safe-keeping. It may have later been stolen by Ma Yuan, an ancient, primal power. This might be how Ma Yuan is able to 'kill gods' (if the arrow got broken, the arrow head could be the 'stone' he wears around his neck, and generates other weapons from). I haven't decided about this part yet (mostly because I am trying NOT TO think about K-T right now).

Mostly homebrew, of course, with me warping some RW mythology into my own stuff. Oh, and I like connecting Ereshkigal to the city - Sahu is just on the other side of the Sempadan in the Utter East, after all, and all of these gods are very active in this entire region (Pantheons and gods that existed during the Dawn War, so 'truly ancient powers', except for the Raven Queen... but we really don't know her whole story).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2017 18:50:12
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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 Nov 2017 :  14:08:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I love that concept of the mortals "becoming" manifestations via their dreams (it would also work for them becoming lesser "incarnations" as well, but this provides them the means). Its very similar to how I'm proposing that many deities "transfer" to Abeir. I'm picturing something where certain mortals actually "dream walk" to the ship of the gods island on Abeir, and its here that maybe they undergo a physical ritual that puts them into a dream state that lets them transfer over into the mortal (with Ptah, Anubis, and some dream gods working together).

That being said, this one pathway with the ship of the gods may be a pathway that certain deities come through. Other deities at the exact same time might be doing other similar things which can be left hazy, or put little pointers to fill in later.

On the idea of death gods, I'd recommend Ereshkigal, as she has the whole same look of the raven queen and everything, plus she would be part of the Untheric Pantheon (she is technically the wife of Nergal and owned the underworld before and beside him, and she is the sister of Inanna).... but maybe she chose to break away from Enlil. Since the isle of Sahu from Complete Book of Necromancer's has a city named after her, maybe she migrated south and eventually her "manifestation" settle on that island (and maybe she's even bound there similar to the lich-priestess Vermissa..... hmmm, man now I got some possibilities spinning in my head of Vermissa being possessed by Ereshkigal despite her being a priestess of Thasmudyan... maybe only occurring after her imprisonment for centuries).
It could all work, IF you make Nergal Nerull... which actually makes a LOT of sense. Or in other words, Nerull was really a Greyhawkian (Oerthan?) aspect of Nergal (a twisted, malevolent aspect, for whatever reason you want to come up with). Maybe he didn't emigrate to Greyspace until after he was forced to take the Netherword as his Domain, and he was bitter about it? Something along those lines. That way we have the same gods 'pairing off' in different pantheons/mythos, which is kind of cool. Mortal religions tend to twist the truth anyway (or the gods themselves do - usually both).

<snip>

Mostly homebrew, of course, with me warping some RW mythology into my own stuff. Oh, and I like connecting Ereshkigal to the city - Sahu is just on the other side of the Sempadan in the Utter East, after all, and all of these gods are very active in this entire region (Pantheons and gods that existed during the Dawn War, so 'truly ancient powers', except for the Raven Queen... but we really don't know her whole story).





Given that the D&D version of Nergal is neutral evil, that might make sense. Since the manifestation of Nergal technically died in the orcgate wars, that may have been when he started appearing instead elsewhere as an undead being..... though you don't need to tie that to it.

I was initially picturing it that Ereshkigal immediately separated from the rest of the Untheric Pantheon and didn't travel with Enlil.... but since the orcgate wars was in -1076 to -1069 DR.... it could be that when her husband Nergal, sister Inanna, and brother Utu all died, she no longer felt kinship to the remaining deities and simply migrated elsewhere. Maybe she even blamed Enlil and Gilgeam for their deaths.

Also, as I've read up on her.... Ereshkigal started out as a beautiful maiden of the sun, until she was captured by a dragon (named Kur) that raped her and dragged her to his underworld known as Kur. Later, she kicked this dragon's ass and then renamed his underworld domain to Irkalla (Erkalla is another spelling). Now, that could have all occurred prior to Nergal/Nerull...

In fact, we have the story of Inanna "descending to the Underworld" to visit her sister "for the funeral libations of her sister’s husband". We could spin this that the dragon that raped her was this "husband", and that Inanna was coming down to basically try and take some of the "power" of the dead dragon for herself. Ereshkigal basically lashes out at her sister for invading her home in her grief, and the only way Inanna is freed is by basically forcing her husband Dumuzi/Tammuzi (who was enjoying the time with Inanna gone... poor bastard) to have to spend part of HIS life in the underworld (like Persephone, but him being a male).

Later, we then have the gods throwing a party that Ereshkigal can't attend because she can't leave the underworld, but they invite her vizier. Nergal is a prick talking about Ereshkigal and the vizier hears it, and so Nergal is "forced" to come to the underworld and he becomes her co-ruler. Obviously this last story could be twisted in many ways to include Nerull instead.

The main reason I listed all these stories in this form, is to give somewhat of a path for Ereshkigal and to show that she's an abused goddess. Raped... forced to live in the underworld (i.e. BOUND somewhere)... she gets maybe a little light when she forces her sister to send her husband to the underworld during the winter... and then later we have her turning to another god (Nergal) to actually rule beside her.

Sidebar note: I've always had mentally written up this "story" that Velsharoon visited the island of Sahu in his youth, and that he met Vermissa the lich who is bound in the garden of eternity and that Vermissa actually taught him secrets of necromancy. Perhaps he also recognized the spirit of Ereshkigal who was also trapped... let's say by Thasmudyan... on the island. I think it would be very interesting if Sahu went to Abeir, and when it did, a mortal bearing the weakened avatar of Velsharoon shows up in Sahu to release Ereshkigal but only by having Vermissa eschew her ties to Thasmudyan and embrace Ereshkigal. The two actually have a LOT in common possibly, turned on by their husbands, abused, imprisoned.

Of course, what do I get from this? Well, of course, another Aulkir for the Tharch of Peleveran, especially if I change her to a mage-priestess (after all, she's been training necromancers, so one could say she probably understood both arcane and divine magics).


The worship of Thasmudyan, known as the Cult of Worms, soon flourished again under an ambitious priestess named Vermissa, one of the first nobles to accompany Uruk into exile on Sahu. But the King was jealous of Vermissa's mounting influence, and he conspired with his most powerful nobles to destroy her. Vermissa disappeared soon after from Nycopolis. When she died, the Cult of Worms floundered without her direction, and Uruk reigned supreme once again in his mighty new kingdom of necromancers.

<snip>
Deep within the core of Sahu, somewhere beneath the Vishap's Spine, rests an ancient prison for an undying priestess of Thasmudyan, the lich Vermissa (see her NPC sheet). Imprisoned in the Garden of Eternity by King Uruk and eight lesser barons, Vermissa was abandoned in her subterranean abode and all but forgotten. The Garden is not a physical prison, but a magical binding that prevents Vermissa (or her spirit) from leaving. Others can enter and leave the Garden freely. Vermissa gives regular audiences from her prison to a steady stream of undead followers and living cult members.
The magical binding was formed with nine magical seals, each enchanted with life force transfer and wrought into the main doors of the Garden by a different necromancer. Vermissa will need another nine similarly powerful necromancers to free her, each casting revoke life force transfer on an unbroken seal.
Recently, Vermissa persuaded Kazerabet to break one of the seals, just as she convinced Nebt Bhakau (Pizentios's former master) and four other powerful necromancers in the past centuries to aid her, for Vermissa knows the secrets of lichdom, and she gladly bestows them on wizards who aid her. It is only a matter of time before she is freed, but just to help matters along, Vermissa bestowed her patronage on the young Pizentios, expecting him to break the seventh seal when he becomes sufficiently powerful.
The garden itself is in a vast cavern whose walls have been magically smoothed. The ceiling has been imbued with continual light, and the rich soil has given root to many strange plants that Vermissa has augmented over the centuries of her imprisonment. The trees and flowers in her garden give bloom to many horrendous human parts with grotesque limbs and faces grafted into the scaly brown bark of twisted mauve bushes or somehow fused into giant orchidlike flowers. These pale limbs and contorted faces are not dead, for that would be merciful and provide little entertainment for Vermissa. The trees and flowers in the Garden arc alive, after a fashion, twisted into pathetic, fleshy things that crave new fodder. Vermissa feeds her Garden frequently, sometimes with the occasional visitors when they displease her, or with hand-picked enemies from the surface.
Vermissa lives in a U-shaped palace that wraps around one half of the Garden, embracing it in a semicircle as if it were an outdoor courtyard. The largest chamber in the palace, besides the audience hall, is a huge cathedral to Thasmudyan, beneath which rests a hidden treasure vault containing Vermissa's phylactery. The palace contains an extensive library of necromantic lore (stolen from Uruk's vaults in Nycopolis by Vermissa's ghouls) and a tall trophy room, where the lich saves the animated heads of her most entertaining visitors for moments when she craves light-hearted conversation. There is an entire wing of "guest" rooms, though only the necromancers Pizentios and Kazerabet (and other prominent, living cult members) make frequent visits.
Reaching the Garden is not an easy task, as it lies beyond a mazework of twisting runnels, protected in key regions by powerful glyphs and symbols or guarded by well-organized detachments of Vermissa's Bone Legion, an elite force of mummies and ju-ju zombies. These caverns rise to the surface in a number of locations, such as the hidden shrines outside Misbahd and Jinutt, the ruins of Ereshkigal, and the tower of Pizentios. Cult members have a secret password that they use to gain passage through the various traps and guardians of the Underdark, but these code phrases change frequently (once every few months). Perhaps the most direct way into the Garden is through the multiple gates leading from Nycopolis to the Summer Palace, and from the Palace to the Garden, but these magical portals are used only by Kazerabet herself and would probably require her personal permission (unlikely given).
The Garden of Eternity is the secret core of the Necromancer Kings campaign, and knowledge about its location and true contents should be kept mysterious for as long as possible in the campaign. Infiltrating the Garden, confronting Vermissa, and defeating the lich priestess should only be attempted by the most powerful and resourceful parties.
A more likely scenario would involve the heroes' attempted infiltration of the garden, and their subsequent capture by the lich, who would be more then happy to give them a tour of her facilities, providing at least some opportunity for role-playing. If they entertain her sufficiently (or somehow manage to beat her at chess), the lich might release them. Otherwise, they will have to devise their own escape (possibly aided by Kazerabet if she has grown fond of the PCs by now). If not, the party will end up as souvenirs in the trophy room or as screaming nourishment for Vermissa's Garden.




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 18 Nov 2017 :  00:43:38  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Not that it doesn't do it decently enough, but I wish the setting put more of a highlight on human ethnicities. Not that I follow many other settings (I don't at all), but it seems like there's a depth of information here that could be brought to the forefront all on its own.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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