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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2017 :  03:12:58  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I plugged in my portable hard drive, and man, asides for a bunch of blast from the past pictures and documents, I found the index and a bunch of stuff that was written for the Kara-Tur Re-Dux. Do you need/want a copy of that?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2017 :  07:06:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I found the thread itself archived somewhere (same place the Utter East one is at), so I'm good. Thanks, though.

K-T is TOO big. I'm going to chip away at the uE until I have something presentable.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2017 :  00:01:00  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Odds are we will all accomplish nothing, and continue talking in circles for another ten years. But at least it's fun!

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4967 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2017 :  03:36:55  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Increments of "nothing" eventually amount to something. My HD is testament to that.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2017 :  03:47:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nah, I'm determined to at least get one thing all my own up on the DMsGuild. I'm involved with stuff heading that way (and one thing that went up today) with several people, but I want to make my own 'mark on the world' at least one time. I even have some plans to do my own illustrating (beyond the usual maps). Never gonna grow if I don't get outside my comfort zone.

The Utter East is perfect, because it falls outside of all the main settings, and yet, falls out between all of them as well. It is very rich in 'fodder' type lore, but nothing overly detailed - just a bunch of raw material waiting for someone to craft it into something special. With the edition of the nearby Mahasarpa in the Sempadan region, it really all comes together - there is no type of campaign you couldn't run there*, and unlike most other FR regions, there's no worry about canon over-writing or spoiling your fun. And what I like most about it is that it really exemplifies that 'shades of grey' type of setting, where 'morality' can actually get in the way of right and wrong. You might have to make a deal with a devil, just to save a town from a worse fate than eternal damnation in hell.

*EDIT:
You have desert lands to the north and south, a sea in front of you (west), and mountains covered in glaciers to the east. Swamps, forests, etc,etc - every type of terrain nearby. All sorts of cultures, some quite 'exotic', with some being subjugated by others. You have both an 'ancient evil' of pure alien chaos, and the usual 'evil that you know' in devils and other fiends. Several realms of 'rich greedy merchants' to the north. A fairly strong military power directly north and bordering. Northmen and Ffolk. Dervishes and nomads. Several different types of 'beastmen', including two powerful evil groups who don't like each other (Yuan-ti and Yakmen). At least one major fallen empire, several smaller (and perhaps more ancient) ones, 'lost' kingdoms, and a hidden, mystical kingdom. At least one lich, probably several, hidden caches of powerful magic, Corsairs, drow (and Trow!), etc, etc... and enough 'non-detail' that a DM can add anything he/she wants and make it his own.

Its absolutely PERFECT.

Did I mention cultists? LOTS of cultists, to all different beings. Some of them walking a very thin line of morality by murdering their oppressors (and worshiping Lloth thinking its Kali - its doesn't get much darker than that). This region makes the Moonsea look like a tea party... and the 'Mad Hatter' has got chin tentacles.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2017 04:01:17
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Lord Karsus
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USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  01:33:31  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-If there's one thing that Central Asia has perfected, and that any fantasy derivative thereof should follow, is the preponderance of cults (and cults of personality).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
169 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  14:14:51  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Except the Vedic mythos/folklore doesn't have wood or metal, they have Aether. HERE is their Elemental Beliefs (scroll down to Hinduism). However, on THIS PAGE which specifically talks about the Hindu elements (Mahabhūta) it focuses on the primary four, and then mentions only a possible other two - Akasha, or Aether, and Vijńana, or 'life force'. I preferred to associate the fifth kingdom/element with Life, but that would make Akasha = 'death', which isn't right (because we DO have two other quasi-elements in D&D - positive and negative energy).

Most religions tend to leave-off the 'negative' one (they accept that it exists, they just don't pay it any faith... usually). In order to rectify/ratify the four elements of western alchemy to the five elements of Oriental mysticism, I have named the fifth one 'Alloy' for purely mechanical reasons - it is Wood, metal, and 'Life' all in one (each religion puts a different spin on it, is all). Because even western alchemy has the fifth element ("Leeloo Multipass!"), which is a combination of the other four in perfect harmony (the basis for 'life', so 'wood', or as I interpret metal, 'alloy'). Once again, everyone is aware of 'void' or whatever they want to call the 6th one, they just ignore it.

So if we can think of it like this:

Element           Energy
Earth             Acid
Air (wind')       Electricity
Fire              Heat/Fire
Water             Cold
Alloy ('life')    Sonic 

Void (Entropy)    Death (necrotic energy)


So maybe Tartyron was Air (which filled his head with 'lofty thoughts'), and he started to fiddle with the forbidden 'element'/energy, death. Of course, if you think he fits better with Alloy (Metal/Wood/Life), than I can make that work too (because whatever's left, I have to place down in Yakiria, and I have some ideas for that. Void/death would work better, of course, for Yakfolk).

And the interesting thing here is that there are devas (I believe canonically, but I haven't read the FoD novel) in nearby Langdarma, who I'm now spinning as the Wind Dukes of Aqua (Vaati). Those guys should be associated with Air as well... but then why do they have 'Aqua' in the name? Perhaps there are actually Vaati for each element, like 'elemental angels'?




A small comment:

Akasha as "Aether" is wery known from post medieval European physics, as the medium of hard Vacuum, a hypothetical material transmitting light in the Outer Space. A few die hard ppl as Lovecraft have referenced it, in form of Elder Things flying on Aether (probably litterally).


And those are the "gross elements" (Mahabhūta) of India, you got smell, taste, form, touch and sound as well (the subtle elements), personally I'd compare these elements to Immanuel Kants 'categories', a pure concept of the existence, not a mechanistic describtion of the universe, but more mental-physical methaphycial understanding, the elements (gross and subtle) are mental functions. (Physical space, is then a projection of the mind, in a way

Tbh I think Asian religions do not need the "negative" element, since especially the indians Schools related to "Tattva" theory, as Samkhya philosophy (as modern Yoga's patanjali), do not need them to explain anything, cold would be absence of heat, etc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  18:22:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've said as much elsewhere - I don't think 'Cold' should have never been its own energy-type, but because D&D is a game, and having one type get both heat and cold (which is how it should be) would be too OP.

On the other hand, if I were to build a new (game) system from the ground-up, I might be tempted to do a negative/positive aspect of each energy type, or rather, 'abundance', and 'lack of'. Thus, for sonics, we would have a complete lack of vibrational energy (stasis), and something akin to a disintegration ray. I am tempted to use the words 'additive' and 'subtractive', but the Sword of Truth series has already used the hell out of that.

Of course, than I would have to make 'life' its own separate thing from sonics, so you would have 'unlife' (death) energy, and life-giving energy... but then you're no longer a Mage, you're a priest. Of course, a priest is just a different type of mage, and I already have ideas in that regard as well (having to do with folklore and familiars - everyone has to get their spells from somewhere). That would cover both priests and necromancers, actually (and Defilers and Preservers from Athas/Darksun).

Thank you for bringing this topic back around, even though this is a bit off-topic. You just caused a couple of things to click into place for me. And weirdly, the system I am now picturing for magic is probably most similar to 4e... go figure.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Dec 2017 18:42:07
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Lord Karsus
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USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  19:21:43  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-That's kinda like where the Elemental Planes intersect with the Negative and Positive Planes, creating the Quasielemental regions where it's like the diminished aspect of the element and the element on steroids. Negative Plane intersects with the Plane of Earth, creating the Dust Quasielemental region, earth in its weakest, cruddiest form. Positive Plane intersects with the Plane of Earth, creating the Mineral Quasielemental region, earth in its most healthiest, robust form.


(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  20:13:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An NPC of mine claims his ability to drink alcohol without ill effect comes from having spent time on the Paraelemental Plane of Ale, and he simply ignores anyone who says it doesn't exist.

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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
169 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2017 :  23:39:14  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know quite little of the "Utter East" region, but find this thread really interesting (also, only google hit on internet who made sense with the Incarnum and Skarn/Rilkan races.. ).

Btw: One idea I had, was the energy of Void as element, is phlogiston. If so, the "Void" inside the crystal spheres in D&D would be impure, or mixed, I think, or have an opposite "void" counterpart, para elemental mix of Void and Positive/Negative energy?
"void" inside a sphere could well have entropic energy, but would by this theory, be an inferior para elemental mix, and the energy likewise.
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

483 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  06:40:36  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

An NPC of mine claims his ability to drink alcohol without ill effect comes from having spent time on the Paraelemental Plane of Ale, and he simply ignores anyone who says it doesn't exist.



The Faerunian pantheon absolutely needs a god of getting shitfaced drunk. He can be the patron of booze, and a sign of favor from him is waking up from a drinking binge without a hangover.

He also drinks the dwarven pantheon under the table, and one of his faith's legends about him is him getting drunk and waking up the next morning to a thoroughly satiated Sune.
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
299 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  09:11:52  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Saint Dionysus, a saint of Ilmater.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Saint_Dionysus
I play a Monk/Drunken Master follower of Dionysus. So much fun.

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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
169 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  14:20:04  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though, according to this: http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm

India had 3 elements originally: fire, water and earth. Makes sense with what little I know of the ancient Indian writings. One thought: If the "northmen" is RL Aryans, and Ffolk is mirroring some other component to Indian population, and we borrow the 3 elements as "original" for an thought experiment, the scholars in Utter east, might know of the changes to elements from the old writings. If it's important to have a source, a king might even have decided at a time "we now got an new element, and I'm now Lord of the Void/Aether/Metal. Priests and Mages, please update your spellbooks and holy books accordingly", and issue a date for this event.

If there is issues with elements and rulers/correspondences in the Utter East area, import what you need from main FR or Kara-Tur, and borrow "Chinese" ish ones from classes, as Wu-jen or Shugenja classes, or "European" elemental magic/alchemy (void, aether, wood & metal). I'm sure the Lords would, if needed.

Edited by - Starshade on 25 Dec 2017 14:25:23
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30642 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  14:45:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

An NPC of mine claims his ability to drink alcohol without ill effect comes from having spent time on the Paraelemental Plane of Ale, and he simply ignores anyone who says it doesn't exist.



The Faerunian pantheon absolutely needs a god of getting shitfaced drunk. He can be the patron of booze, and a sign of favor from him is waking up from a drinking binge without a hangover.

He also drinks the dwarven pantheon under the table, and one of his faith's legends about him is him getting drunk and waking up the next morning to a thoroughly satiated Sune.



That's part of the reason I like Cayden Cailean from Pathfinder... He represents freedom, his temples are often taverns, and he was a mortal who became a god on a drunken bet!

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2017 :  16:44:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...

'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).

Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.

Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"

Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  01:16:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see why the Realms can't have a deity like Cayden Cailean. Obviously, his backstory would have to be tweaked, and that could be a bit of a challenge, but I don't see that having a deity like him wouldn't work.


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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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LordofBones
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483 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  11:30:45  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...

'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).

Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.

Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"

Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?



Golarion has things like incestuous rapist cannibal giants, kaiju and fricking Nyarlathotep.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  16:39:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...

'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).

Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.

Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"

Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?



Golarion has things like incestuous rapist cannibal giants, kaiju and fricking Nyarlathotep.



Golarion has a lot of niftiness, but there's a lot I'm not fond of, as well. The direct connection to the Cthulhu stuff is not my cup of tea. There's a Gothic horror nation, another where self-mutilation is the thing to do, a techno-barbarian nation, and Egypt with the serial numbers filed off. Oh, and a nation where someone has managed to convince everyone that he is a god, and has gotten away with it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14876 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  19:28:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See? Thats the odd thing to me. They purposely did a psuedo-Egypt without the actual Egyptian gods, which is what FR got WRONG (and they got right). But then they go and call the Cthulhu pantheon by its actual names. We have those creatures - we just have them all renamed (most of them fall under 'Elder Evils', or aspects of the Elder Elemental Eye - Tharizdun). Some of the Obyriths also qualify. In fact, come to think of it, ALL Obyriths do, given their heritage.

I think of Golarion as FR 2.0 - someone taking all of Ed's most basic premises and re-spinning them into something a bit more coherent (for a more 'modern' audience). In other words, groups with similar cultures get lumped together geographically. Ya know, rather than having 20 or so psuedo-Middle eastern cultures haphazardly EVERYWHERE. Whereas we have a completely useless Katashaka (because we already have Chult), they have just one 'Africanesque' region. That sort of thing. it was just planned better, IMHO.

I would have loved if they used The Sundering to reboot the whole setting (IN-setting, mind you, so it technically wouldn't be a 'reboot', a'la Star Trek). Imagine getting guys like Ed, Steven, Eric, George, etc.,* to rewrite the OGB from scratch. Keep everything there, but do it in such a way with all the knowledge we now have about the setting, and also for 5e rules. It would have been freakin' AMAZING. Then moving forward, the rule would be, "the old canon still applies unless rewritten by newer canon", which no-one should have a problem with, since that's what we keep getting anyway. Then we can ignore things like the absurdities in DoD and the Nethril box. Novels would still be canon, following the same rule (characters may even have some hazy memory of things 'happening a little differently', like deja vu, but not quite).

Heck, we could even have 'Old Elmeinster' like Spock, where his old tired self meets a slightly younger model... and can finally get the rest he deserved. Or like Superman currently in the comics - "You may be Elminster, but you're not my Elminster." Imagine the joy the Old Mage would have in seeing folk like Sylune and Alusair alive again... before he himself 'shuffled off this mortal coil". It would be an awesome homage to both the editions that have passed, and to the Wizard who held our hands while we traveled through them. "This be not my Realms, but it is a fine thing unto itself. I fear I must part now - I am no longer truly part of this world." {fades}

*(EDIT) - How did I forget Jeff Grubb? He'd be a must on a project like that! (and now I have the Cher song "If I could turn back time" stuck in my head, except an old bearded man is singing it). Maybe I shouldn't have watched the Doctor Who Christmas special last night... NAAAAAH.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know Wooly, while trying to figure out how to respond to your last post, I came to a startling conclusion...

'The Forgotten Realms' is too much of a 'grown-up' setting to have fun stuff like that. So now I have to wonder, did FR get 'left behind' for awhile simply because Golarion was a more 'fun' setting? Golarion gnomes and goblins - also 'more fun' (light-hearted).

Our setting is much too 'fuddy-duddy' for that sort of silliness. Hmmmmm... did we grognard ourselves right out of a fandom? I left GH for FR because I was looking for a mature setting, but now I find I spend more time debating minutia then enjoying the game.

Maybe we should stop trying to have everything make perfect (grown-up) sense and just go with the flow. We had the opportunity to have our 'god of drunkeness & revelry' with Saint Dionysius... but that was taken away from us. Instead we got a , "NO! He's just as boring and exactly like every other saint of Ilmater... who is also boring. Now stop trying to have fun on my watch!"

Have we painted ourselves into a corner of bland consistency?



Golarion has things like incestuous rapist cannibal giants, kaiju and fricking Nyarlathotep.

Like I said, a bunch of light-hearted, wacky, silliness.

I kid, I KID...

Yes, it has its 'dark', but it also has its zaniess. You can take that setting and run any flavor game you want, depending on where you 'set up camp'. I think they Realms started out like that, but over the years we've been handed more and more 'realistic' (logical?) lore, and while i am a HUGE fan of consistency, sometimes it starts to look like 'more of the same', and I begin to miss some of that wackiness I got with Greyhawk.

Of course, I could always have some Lichlings (Nightmare Keep) mounted on Thornblights (Sunless Citadel) if I wanted. Undead wasps riding killer tumbleweeds is pretty damn zany, and if I have them under the control of a Headless Zhent, well, I think I may be on-par with GH's 'Coca-Cola' elementals and chocolate bunny golems (then again, maybe not).

And Kaiju? We have Krakentua!
Basically, Titan-sized illithids - it doesn't get more crazy than THAT.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Dec 2017 03:01:33
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 26 Dec 2017 :  21:20:33  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I think the "zaniness factor" has to be downplayed a little bit to make sense of things from a world-building stand point, but on a case-by-case basis, it's there. I mean, I'll just use a personal anecdote, but I don't really care for Ed Greenwood's writing because a lot of it has that. It's easier to see it on a smaller level than on a giant scale- unless you are going for a world that is more weird.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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LordofBones
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Posted - 27 Dec 2017 :  03:15:03  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think the Elder Evils and the Elder Eye are anywhere close to the Cthulhu mythos. The Worm that Walks is Kyuss, a lackey of Nerull, for instance, while Zargon is obviously a piece of Baatorian propaganda. The Leviathan is a bizarre attempt to shoehorn the Bibical beast into D&D, the snake obyrith is just an obyrith.

You'd be better off trying to match the abberant deities to the Cthulhu mythos. Just look at Blibdolpoolp and Piscaenthes.
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 28 Dec 2017 :  23:00:16  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-All of the Far Realm and The Aboleth Elder Evils definitely are.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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